Bill, If you're a good boy I might tell you about stage 4! :-)
Edgar On Apr 17, 2013, at 10:15 AM, Bill! wrote: > Edgar, > > Great! Now that I'm finished with Stage 3 can I move on to Stage 2? > > ...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > > > Bill, > > > > Absolutely! You as an empty form being hit by the empty form of a bus > > generates the empty form of you dying. It's all empty, but emptiness is > > real.... > > > > Edgar > > > > > > On Apr 17, 2013, at 8:17 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > Edgar, > > > > > > Is this part of Stage 3? > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > If you think you are NOT bound by cause and effect why can't you fly? > > > > > > > > Try stepping in front of a bus and see if you are bound by cause and > > > > effect or not! > > > > > > > > Jeeeez! > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 17, 2013, at 3:27 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > > > Mike, > > > > > > > > > > The zen saying "When hungry we (sic) eat" does imply cause and > > > > > effect. So does "When hungry we don't eat" and "When not hungry we > > > > > eat". Implying doesn't make it so. The saying is just meant to > > > > > describe impromptu, unconditioned action, not to illustrate > > > > > cause-and-effect. > > > > > > > > > > Also (and IMO) you're reading a little too much into the koan to jump > > > > > to the conclusion that being cast into the body of a fox for 500 > > > > > lifetimes is NEGATIVE karma or being released from that was POSITIVE > > > > > karma. Also you've neglected to note that the 'effect' (500 lifetimes > > > > > as a fox) was dismissed as soon as the old man heard the turning > > > > > words. These words broke the chain of cause-and-effect. > > > > > > > > > > I don't know who every came up with the term 'moral causation' but it > > > > > is doubly problematic for me. One because the concept of causation > > > > > (the chain of cause-and-effect relationships) is illusory, and two > > > > > because 'morality' is just another one of those two-sided coins with > > > > > 'moral' on one side and 'immoral' on the other. In other words is a > > > > > dualistic concept which makes it illusory. Dogen didn't really use > > > > > this term,did he? > > > > > > > > > > You do attribute to Dogen the statement in relationship to HYAKUJO > > > > > AND THE FOX that "cause-and-effect are immovable". That's obviously > > > > > not so because the turning word removed them. > > > > > > > > > > For me (and this is Bill! speaking) a person is only subject to > > > > > cause-and-effect if he fooled by them, and if he is fooled by them he > > > > > is not enlightened. > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], uerusuboyo@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill!,<br/><br/>As you say, we do need to live in the world of > > > > > > illusions and that is why we need to see things as "real" in terms > > > > > > of the relative (I've never claimed anything as not being illusory, > > > > > > just that to do so is not practical to live a human life). For > > > > > > example, in Zen the saying is 'When hungry we eat' (how's that for > > > > > > cause and effect!). It doesn't say 'When hungry - just dismiss > > > > > > hunger as illusion'. <br/><br/>My reading of the last part of the > > > > > > koan is just that karma is not fixed (determined) and can be > > > > > > changed. Even the negative karma of living as a fox for 500 > > > > > > lifetimes was eventually extinguished (it could even be argued that > > > > > > 500 lifetimes was necessary before the old man could become > > > > > > enlightened, therefore making it positive karma if that is what was > > > > > > required for his enlightenment). <br/><br/>I cut this from > > > > > > angelfire.com:<br/><br/>"Causation" in this passage refers to > > > > > > "moral causation." The Buddhist concept of Karma acknowledges that > > > > > > good/bad deeds, thoughts, and so forth result in good/bad effects. > > > > > > Thus the import of the question posed by the "fox" is whether or > > > > > > not the Enlightened person is subject to Karma. Hyakujo's answer, > > > > > > in effect, affirms that the Enlightened person is subject to moral > > > > > > causation. Katsuki Sekida offers a common Zen interpretation of > > > > > > this passage in his comment: "Thus to ignore causation only > > > > > > compounds one's malady. To recognize causation constitutes the > > > > > > remedy for it." See Karma and Free Will.<br/><br/>Dogen Zenji's > > > > > > employment of this story in the "Daishugyo" chapter of the > > > > > > Shobogenzo implies that, on one level, he thinks Hyakujo's answer > > > > > > indeed provides a "remedy" for the old man's predicament. Yet Dogen > > > > > > was rarely content with merely citing traditional Zen > > > > > > interpretations of passages; typically, he sought to push his > > > > > > students to a further understanding by a creative reinterpretation > > > > > > of a passage. Lest his disciple therefore think this > > > > > > not-ignoring/recognition of causation is de facto a release from it > > > > > > in an ultimate sense, Dogen answers that the passage means "cause > > > > > > and effect are immovable." In other words, moral causation, for > > > > > > Dogen, is an inexorable fact of human existence."<br/><br/>For me > > > > > > then (this is Mike speaking!), the enlightened person is still > > > > > > subject to cause and effect, but is not fooled by it. > > > > > > <br/><br/>Mike<br/><br/><br/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
