Joe,

Lineage in Zen Buddhism to me just refers to some teaching style and of course 
is used to validate the teacher.  I think it's the same as most religions.  
Most religions are based on the teaching of some 'founder'.  His/her teaching 
is usually (or at least thought to be) original or have some important 
differences to the prevailing thought.  If enough people adopt it, it's a 
religion.  Sects are sub-sets of religions.

I guess if you're asking me to put all this into some kind of rational 
hierarchy in the case of Zen Buddhist lineages it would be:

1. Buddhism
2. Mahayana
3. Zen
4. Nation/Culture
5. Lineage

That's my immediate thoughts on 'lineage'.

And...by the way my thoughts on a hierarchy like this in zen (lower-case 'z' is 
just:

0. Buddha Nature

...and nothing else...Bill!

--- In [email protected], "Joe" <desert_woodworker@...> wrote:
>
> Bill!,
> 
> There's something we've been entirely neglecting.  We've treated in our many 
> considerations the matters of "Buddhism", and Zen Buddhism, and then Zen as 
> practice without any ism-atudes outstanding.
> 
> Now, I'll put to you a large issue, but just by way of opening a matter for 
> consideration.  Leaving aside the issues of Buddhism, and Zen Buddhism, 
> and... let's say even leaving aside the issue of "Zen", as a practice, and as 
> a "state".  Let me then, or now ask:
> 
> What about the issue of "Lineage"?
> 
> To me it seems a Human thing.
> 
> People in lineages talk about "Bloodlines".
> 
> They talk, too, about lineage-holders.
> 
> The Scriptures don't go into lineage.  I don't believe it's either Dharma, or 
> doctrine, or dogma, "officially".  It's particular to sects, though: Tibetan 
> schools; Ch'an schools; Zen schools; Son Schools; Thine schools.
> 
> What is lineage to you.  Is it something you've thought about before?  Is 
> there anything that sticks or has stuck to your ribs about it?
> 
> I've had "goes" with it, and at it, at times, and have now been quiet about 
> it inside for a long time.  And I haven't asked anyone about it in a long 
> time.  How's by you, then, when it comes to lineage?  I wonder what comes to 
> mind.
> 
> Thanks considering this.
> 
> --Joe
> 
> > "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote:
> >
> > Joe,
> > 
> > I checked out my dictionary references and couldn't really discover the 
> > difference between 'doctrine' and 'dogma'.  My sense of the two words is 
> > that 'doctrine' is at a higher level - like mission or strategy, and 
> > 'dogma' is a lower level like tasks or tactics.  I think that pretty much 
> > corresponds with your thoughts below.
> > 
> > Anyway when you talk about the Ch'an sect or Zen sect you're still talking 
> > about a sect (sub-set) of Buddhism with that nasty little
> > '-ism' still intact.
> > 
> > Now if you want to talk about 'zen' (lower case 'z') as I do, then okay; 
> > but 'zen' as I've experienced and practice does not have either doctrine 
> > nor dogma - only Just THIS!
>




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