Bob, I'm not sure what you mean in your last sentence. Without rationality we do live our daily lives in chaos. What's wrong with that? Isn't that better than living our lives believing we are confined by a set of illusory rules? That's exactly what is meant by 'leaping into the void' and 'jumping off the 100-ft pole'. These mean 'let go of your attachment to rationality so you may experience Buddha Nature'. That's IMO anyway. I assume you're borrowing the term 'wild ox' from the 10 Ox Herding pictures/phases which uses it as a metaphor for "the true nature of the mind", not for the intellect/rational mind. In fact even the first picture/stage states "the true nature of the mind cannot be found by maintaining a dualistic view of the world. Dualism is the foundation of rationality. [Seeking the Ox] By Stage 3 notes the "transcendence of subject and object" through experience. Subject/Object is another fundamental and necessary quality of rationality. Stage 5 talks about "going beyond the normal thinking mind". The "normal thinking mind" is the rational mind, the intellect. By Stage 9 the mind is completely free of attachment to rationality. It's "escaped the trap of opinions and views". That does not mean you cannot act rationally, but means you are not attached to it nor bound by it.
If you want to see the source I used for these quotes, and view the entire 10 Ox Herding Pictures/Stages go to: http://www.buddhanet.net/oxherd1.htm <http://www.buddhanet.net/oxherd1.htm> Enjoy...Bill! --- In [email protected], "bobthomas564" wrote: > > Bill - I sometimes wonder in this world where emotions are king (at the moment) that a return to real stoicism might have a place. Emotions are very wide in their range but not very deep, and anyone diving into them will break their nose. They are best controlled like a dog and if not let them drift off as we do in meditation. > > Without the rational in our daily lives chaos reins supreme, therefore we try to tame the wild Ox rather than keep a watch over it. > > Bob > > --- In [email protected], "Bill!" BillSmart@ wrote: > > > > Edgar, > > > > Every human action is not a combination of many actions. Fixing dinner may be, but cutting carrots is not. Peeling potatoes is not. And even if the complete act of fixing dinner does require a number of coordinated efforts it does not require, and in fact is weakened by, thinking about what you want to do after you eat. > > > > Zen is not "...using the rational mind to accomplish this by recognizing the true nature of the world of forms one is working with.....". That is problem-solving. That is rationality. That is not zen which is the experience of Buddha Nature. > > > > I'm sorry you put so much emphasis on rationality. Although I am sure it must be very comforting it is also very confining. But then that might be okay for you living in a world which you fill completely up with illusory nails. > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen wrote: > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > The 'only one thing at a time delusion' is a common misunderstanding of Zen. > > > > > > In actuality EVERY human action is a combination of many actions. Fixing dinner is NOT just a single action called fixing dinner, it's a complex sequence of multiple actions that MUST be in the correct logical sequence to succeed. > > > > > > The correct understanding is not allowing mind to engage with unnecessary or irrelevant thoughts as they may arise but to concentrate on the logical multiplex of actions at hand to achieve the end... > > > > > > This all has to do with how Zen works in the world of forms. It REQUIRES INTELLECT to function effectively. > > > > > > Cooking dinner is NOT a single activity as comic book Zen supposes. It is a complex sequence of rationally oriented events including shopping for ingredients, planning what is to be cooked, cutting and chopping, mixing, cooking but only until done, serving the correct portions to the correct number of people etc. etc. etc. > > > > > > Zen is using the rational mind to accomplish this by recognizing the true nature of the world of forms one is working with..... > > > > > > If one does not use the rational mind during cooking one will fail. That is NOT Zen, that is incompetence! > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 20, 2013, at 5:45 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > Merle, > > > > > > > > This is a very common occurrence. Zen literature refers to this as the 'monkey mind' because it seems to just go on and on without end and out-of-control. > > > > > > > > Zazen (and other zen teaching techniques) specifically target 'monkey mind' and try to calm it down until it eventually ceases all activity. Then you can have a direct experience of reality (Buddha Nature). > > > > > > > > When you do things like weeding or probably painting you may focus your whole being on just weeding or just painting. If you do this it is just like zazen in which you may start by concentrating on your breath. This single-mindedness concentration is what is meant by the zen saying, "When sit, just sit. When walking, just walk. Above all don't wobble." That means when your doing anything, just do that. Don't try to do many things at once, and especially don't do something while thinking about something else. Like painting while thinking about what you're going to fix for dinner. Or when fixing dinner not thinking about what you're going to paint after eating. When painting, just paint. When fixing dinner, just fix dinner. > > > > > > > > And yes, it's much easier said than done... > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Â > > > > > Â bill..yes i understand..thank you..yes i agree with you..the intellect chatter..that is constant with me and i find it so tiring to the point where i get a headache..i go out and do weeding to freshen my brain.. i am constantly asking questions mostly ones one cannot answer anyway..round and round in circles i go... chewing it over and over... i am a bit of a problem solver..that's what happens at night and i cannot turn my mind off so i can't sleep..yes and then there is the emotions rocking me around like a boat...i need to go watch a show on telly now..back later..thank you bill!..i appreciate this post..merle > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Â > > > > > Merle, > > > > > > > > > > You are definitely on the right track. > > > > > > > > > > You can't just turn these things off. Daido talked about that. You just let them come and go. The zen story about that (there's a zen story about everything) is it is like when you are busy doing something and someone comes to your door. You can answer the door, tell them you'r busy right now and that they can come back later. What you don't do is invite them in for tea and a lengthy chat. > > > > > > > > > > You can begin to quiet your mind down by doing what Daido said (or by chanting or bowing or koan study, etc...), and when you do reach the point to where all these thoughts have been turned off (I use the word 'quiesce' or 'paused' or 'temporarily halted') THEN you will experience Buddha Nature - which is the direct experience of reality WITHOUT all the intellectual and emotional chatter going on. > > > > > > > > > > And basically that's it! Then it's just a matter of 'practicing' so you can keep all that chatter at an absolute minimum - not cease it permanently but only use it (your intellect/your rationality) when it's appropriate. Your intellect (logic/rationality) is just one of the many tools you have in your human tool bag and you shouldn't treat it like it is the only one. Like I've reminded people on this forum of the old saying which I apply to the intellect, "When all one has is a hammer, everything looks like a nail". > > > > > > > > > > I call all this intellectual chatter 'illusion' and I call only the direct experience of reality (Buddha Nature) 'real' - and that's where the major difference of opinion (or at least terminology) between Edgar and me - at least IMO. > > > > > > > > > > Enjoy...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÂ bill! yes i know the scoreboard..sometimes it's hard to turn off the mind and experience non thought..and basically it's feelings that get me into a knot...i get so many different feelings flooding me..from joy to utter despair...all bubbling away like a volcano... this is what i find difficult to turn that switch off..however i note in my study..i just let them pass as they come and then they go like a log floating down a stream..am i on the right track?..merle > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÂ > > > > > > Merle, > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree with what Mike says below and would reinforce that in the statement you quoted, 'you are your best teacher'... > > > > > > > > > > > > If 'you' means your self, your ego, your intellect, your dualistic, rational mind - then it is definitely not your best teacher (for zen). > > > > > > > > > > > > But if 'you' means experience, Buddha Nature, the absence of ego, itellect, dualism, etc... - then it is definitely your best teacher (for zen). > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], uerusuboyo@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Merle, Depends what you mean by "you". If 'you' means your ego, then absolutely not because the mind will colour things to suit itself. If by 'you' you mean reality, then absolutely yes! And by reality I mean the immediacy of direct experience. Buddha said, "Be a lamp unto yourself". Only you will know if the tea is hot or cold (remember that topic!). A teacher is only a guide and friend. Ultimately only you can workout your own salvation. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
