Oh and by the way I want to especially direct Mike's attention to Stage 8's statement that "Enlightenment as an unconditioned state of mind is experienced." Yes, that does say 'unconditioned'...
...Bill! --- In [email protected], "Bill!" wrote: > > Bob, > I'm not sure what you mean in your last sentence. Without rationality > we do live our daily lives in chaos. What's wrong with that? Isn't > that better than living our lives believing we are confined by a set of > illusory rules? That's exactly what is meant by 'leaping into the void' > and 'jumping off the 100-ft pole'. These mean 'let go of your > attachment to rationality so you may experience Buddha Nature'. That's > IMO anyway. > I assume you're borrowing the term 'wild ox' from the 10 Ox Herding > pictures/phases which uses it as a metaphor for "the true nature of the > mind", not for the intellect/rational mind. In fact even the first > picture/stage states "the true nature of the mind cannot be found by > maintaining a dualistic view of the world. Dualism is the foundation of > rationality. > [Seeking the Ox] By Stage 3 notes the "transcendence of subject and > object" through experience. Subject/Object is another fundamental and > necessary quality of rationality. > Stage 5 talks about "going beyond the normal thinking mind". The > "normal thinking mind" is the rational mind, the intellect. > By Stage 9 the mind is completely free of attachment to rationality. > It's "escaped the trap of opinions and views". That does not mean you > cannot act rationally, but means you are not attached to it nor bound by > it. > > If you want to see the source I used for these quotes, and view the > entire 10 Ox Herding Pictures/Stages go to: > http://www.buddhanet.net/oxherd1.htm > > Enjoy...Bill! > --- In [email protected], "bobthomas564" wrote: > > > Bill - I sometimes wonder in this world where emotions are king (at > the moment) that a return to real stoicism might have a place. Emotions > are very wide in their range but not very deep, and anyone diving into > them will break their nose. They are best controlled like a dog and if > not let them drift off as we do in meditation. > > > > Without the rational in our daily lives chaos reins supreme, therefore > we try to tame the wild Ox rather than keep a watch over it. > > > > Bob > > > > --- In [email protected], "Bill!" BillSmart@ wrote: > > > > > > Edgar, > > > > > > Every human action is not a combination of many actions. Fixing > dinner may be, but cutting carrots is not. Peeling potatoes is not. > And even if the complete act of fixing dinner does require a number of > coordinated efforts it does not require, and in fact is weakened by, > thinking about what you want to do after you eat. > > > > > > Zen is not "...using the rational mind to accomplish this by > recognizing the true nature of the world of forms one is working > with.....". That is problem-solving. That is rationality. That is not > zen which is the experience of Buddha Nature. > > > > > > I'm sorry you put so much emphasis on rationality. Although I am > sure it must be very comforting it is also very confining. But then > that might be okay for you living in a world which you fill completely > up with illusory nails. > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen wrote: > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > The 'only one thing at a time delusion' is a common > misunderstanding of Zen. > > > > > > > > In actuality EVERY human action is a combination of many actions. > Fixing dinner is NOT just a single action called fixing dinner, it's a > complex sequence of multiple actions that MUST be in the correct logical > sequence to succeed. > > > > > > > > The correct understanding is not allowing mind to engage with > unnecessary or irrelevant thoughts as they may arise but to concentrate > on the logical multiplex of actions at hand to achieve the end... > > > > > > > > This all has to do with how Zen works in the world of forms. It > REQUIRES INTELLECT to function effectively. > > > > > > > > Cooking dinner is NOT a single activity as comic book Zen > supposes. It is a complex sequence of rationally oriented events > including shopping for ingredients, planning what is to be cooked, > cutting and chopping, mixing, cooking but only until done, serving the > correct portions to the correct number of people etc. etc. etc. > > > > > > > > Zen is using the rational mind to accomplish this by recognizing > the true nature of the world of forms one is working with..... > > > > > > > > If one does not use the rational mind during cooking one will > fail. That is NOT Zen, that is incompetence! > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 20, 2013, at 5:45 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > > > Merle, > > > > > > > > > > This is a very common occurrence. Zen literature refers to this > as the 'monkey mind' because it seems to just go on and on without end > and out-of-control. > > > > > > > > > > Zazen (and other zen teaching techniques) specifically target > 'monkey mind' and try to calm it down until it eventually ceases all > activity. Then you can have a direct experience of reality (Buddha > Nature). > > > > > > > > > > When you do things like weeding or probably painting you may > focus your whole being on just weeding or just painting. If you do this > it is just like zazen in which you may start by concentrating on your > breath. This single-mindedness concentration is what is meant by the zen > saying, "When sit, just sit. When walking, just walk. Above all don't > wobble." That means when your doing anything, just do that. Don't try to > do many things at once, and especially don't do something while thinking > about something else. Like painting while thinking about what you're > going to fix for dinner. Or when fixing dinner not thinking about what > you're going to paint after eating. When painting, just paint. When > fixing dinner, just fix dinner. > > > > > > > > > > And yes, it's much easier said than done... > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Â > > > > > > Â bill..yes i understand..thank you..yes i agree with > you..the intellect chatter..that is constant with me and i find it so > tiring to the point where i get a headache..i go out and do weeding to > freshen my brain.. i am constantly asking questions mostly ones one > cannot answer anyway..round and round in circles i go... chewing it over > and over... i am a bit of a problem solver..that's what happens at night > and i cannot turn my mind off so i can't sleep..yes and then there is > the emotions rocking me around like a boat...i need to go watch a show > on telly now..back later..thank you bill!..i appreciate this post..merle > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Â > > > > > > Merle, > > > > > > > > > > > > You are definitely on the right track. > > > > > > > > > > > > You can't just turn these things off. Daido talked about that. > You just let them come and go. The zen story about that (there's a zen > story about everything) is it is like when you are busy doing something > and someone comes to your door. You can answer the door, tell them you'r > busy right now and that they can come back later. What you don't do is > invite them in for tea and a lengthy chat. > > > > > > > > > > > > You can begin to quiet your mind down by doing what Daido said > (or by chanting or bowing or koan study, etc...), and when you do reach > the point to where all these thoughts have been turned off (I use the > word 'quiesce' or 'paused' or 'temporarily halted') THEN you will > experience Buddha Nature - which is the direct experience of reality > WITHOUT all the intellectual and emotional chatter going on. > > > > > > > > > > > > And basically that's it! Then it's just a matter of > 'practicing' so you can keep all that chatter at an absolute minimum - > not cease it permanently but only use it (your intellect/your > rationality) when it's appropriate. Your intellect (logic/rationality) > is just one of the many tools you have in your human tool bag and you > shouldn't treat it like it is the only one. Like I've reminded people on > this forum of the old saying which I apply to the intellect, "When all > one has is a hammer, everything looks like a nail". > > > > > > > > > > > > I call all this intellectual chatter 'illusion' and I call > only the direct experience of reality (Buddha Nature) 'real' - and > that's where the major difference of opinion (or at least terminology) > between Edgar and me - at least IMO. > > > > > > > > > > > > Enjoy...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÂ bill! yes i know the scoreboard..sometimes it's hard > to turn off the mind and experience non thought..and basically it's > feelings that get me into a knot...i get so many different feelings > flooding me..from joy to utter despair...all bubbling away like a > volcano... this is what i find difficult to turn that switch > off..however i note in my study..i just let them pass as they come and > then they go like a log floating down a stream..am i on the right > track?..merle > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÂ > > > > > > > Merle, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree with what Mike says below and would reinforce that > in the statement you quoted, 'you are your best teacher'... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If 'you' means your self, your ego, your intellect, your > dualistic, rational mind - then it is definitely not your best teacher > (for zen). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But if 'you' means experience, Buddha Nature, the absence of > ego, itellect, dualism, etc... - then it is definitely your best teacher > (for zen). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], uerusuboyo@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Merle, > > Depends what you mean by "you". If 'you' means your ego, then absolutely > not because the mind will colour things to suit itself. If by 'you' you > mean reality, then absolutely yes! And by reality I mean the immediacy > of direct experience. Buddha said, "Be a lamp unto yourself". Only you > will know if the tea is hot or cold (remember that topic!). A teacher is > only a guide and friend. Ultimately only you can workout your own > salvation. > > Mike > > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
