Bob, You are correct. Without the rational mind life would be impossible and thus Zen would be impossible.....
Edgar On Apr 20, 2013, at 8:42 AM, bobthomas564 wrote: > Bill - I sometimes wonder in this world where emotions are king (at the > moment) that a return to real stoicism might have a place. Emotions are very > wide in their range but not very deep, and anyone diving into them will break > their nose. They are best controlled like a dog and if not let them drift off > as we do in meditation. > > Without the rational in our daily lives chaos reins supreme, therefore we try > to tame the wild Ox rather than keep a watch over it. > > Bob > > --- In [email protected], "Bill!" <BillSmart@...> wrote: > > > > Edgar, > > > > Every human action is not a combination of many actions. Fixing dinner may > > be, but cutting carrots is not. Peeling potatoes is not. And even if the > > complete act of fixing dinner does require a number of coordinated efforts > > it does not require, and in fact is weakened by, thinking about what you > > want to do after you eat. > > > > Zen is not "...using the rational mind to accomplish this by recognizing > > the true nature of the world of forms one is working with.....". That is > > problem-solving. That is rationality. That is not zen which is the > > experience of Buddha Nature. > > > > I'm sorry you put so much emphasis on rationality. Although I am sure it > > must be very comforting it is also very confining. But then that might be > > okay for you living in a world which you fill completely up with illusory > > nails. > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > The 'only one thing at a time delusion' is a common misunderstanding of > > > Zen. > > > > > > In actuality EVERY human action is a combination of many actions. Fixing > > > dinner is NOT just a single action called fixing dinner, it's a complex > > > sequence of multiple actions that MUST be in the correct logical sequence > > > to succeed. > > > > > > The correct understanding is not allowing mind to engage with unnecessary > > > or irrelevant thoughts as they may arise but to concentrate on the > > > logical multiplex of actions at hand to achieve the end... > > > > > > This all has to do with how Zen works in the world of forms. It REQUIRES > > > INTELLECT to function effectively. > > > > > > Cooking dinner is NOT a single activity as comic book Zen supposes. It is > > > a complex sequence of rationally oriented events including shopping for > > > ingredients, planning what is to be cooked, cutting and chopping, mixing, > > > cooking but only until done, serving the correct portions to the correct > > > number of people etc. etc. etc. > > > > > > Zen is using the rational mind to accomplish this by recognizing the true > > > nature of the world of forms one is working with..... > > > > > > If one does not use the rational mind during cooking one will fail. That > > > is NOT Zen, that is incompetence! > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 20, 2013, at 5:45 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > Merle, > > > > > > > > This is a very common occurrence. Zen literature refers to this as the > > > > 'monkey mind' because it seems to just go on and on without end and > > > > out-of-control. > > > > > > > > Zazen (and other zen teaching techniques) specifically target 'monkey > > > > mind' and try to calm it down until it eventually ceases all activity. > > > > Then you can have a direct experience of reality (Buddha Nature). > > > > > > > > When you do things like weeding or probably painting you may focus your > > > > whole being on just weeding or just painting. If you do this it is just > > > > like zazen in which you may start by concentrating on your breath. This > > > > single-mindedness concentration is what is meant by the zen saying, > > > > "When sit, just sit. When walking, just walk. Above all don't wobble." > > > > That means when your doing anything, just do that. Don't try to do many > > > > things at once, and especially don't do something while thinking about > > > > something else. Like painting while thinking about what you're going to > > > > fix for dinner. Or when fixing dinner not thinking about what you're > > > > going to paint after eating. When painting, just paint. When fixing > > > > dinner, just fix dinner. > > > > > > > > And yes, it's much easier said than done... > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > >  bill..yes i understand..thank you..yes i agree with you..the > > > > > intellect chatter..that is constant with me and i find it so tiring > > > > > to the point where i get a headache..i go out and do weeding to > > > > > freshen my brain.. i am constantly asking questions mostly ones one > > > > > cannot answer anyway..round and round in circles i go... chewing it > > > > > over and over... i am a bit of a problem solver..that's what happens > > > > > at night and i cannot turn my mind off so i can't sleep..yes and then > > > > > there is the emotions rocking me around like a boat...i need to go > > > > > watch a show on telly now..back later..thank you bill!..i appreciate > > > > > this post..merle > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > Merle, > > > > > > > > > > You are definitely on the right track. > > > > > > > > > > You can't just turn these things off. Daido talked about that. You > > > > > just let them come and go. The zen story about that (there's a zen > > > > > story about everything) is it is like when you are busy doing > > > > > something and someone comes to your door. You can answer the door, > > > > > tell them you'r busy right now and that they can come back later. > > > > > What you don't do is invite them in for tea and a lengthy chat. > > > > > > > > > > You can begin to quiet your mind down by doing what Daido said (or by > > > > > chanting or bowing or koan study, etc...), and when you do reach the > > > > > point to where all these thoughts have been turned off (I use the > > > > > word 'quiesce' or 'paused' or 'temporarily halted') THEN you will > > > > > experience Buddha Nature - which is the direct experience of reality > > > > > WITHOUT all the intellectual and emotional chatter going on. > > > > > > > > > > And basically that's it! Then it's just a matter of 'practicing' so > > > > > you can keep all that chatter at an absolute minimum - not cease it > > > > > permanently but only use it (your intellect/your rationality) when > > > > > it's appropriate. Your intellect (logic/rationality) is just one of > > > > > the many tools you have in your human tool bag and you shouldn't > > > > > treat it like it is the only one. Like I've reminded people on this > > > > > forum of the old saying which I apply to the intellect, "When all one > > > > > has is a hammer, everything looks like a nail". > > > > > > > > > > I call all this intellectual chatter 'illusion' and I call only the > > > > > direct experience of reality (Buddha Nature) 'real' - and that's > > > > > where the major difference of opinion (or at least terminology) > > > > > between Edgar and me - at least IMO. > > > > > > > > > > Enjoy...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  bill! yes i know the scoreboard..sometimes it's hard to turn > > > > > > off the mind and experience non thought..and basically it's > > > > > > feelings that get me into a knot...i get so many different feelings > > > > > > flooding me..from joy to utter despair...all bubbling away like a > > > > > > volcano... this is what i find difficult to turn that switch > > > > > > off..however i note in my study..i just let them pass as they come > > > > > > and then they go like a log floating down a stream..am i on the > > > > > > right track?..merle > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > Merle, > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree with what Mike says below and would reinforce that in the > > > > > > statement you quoted, 'you are your best teacher'... > > > > > > > > > > > > If 'you' means your self, your ego, your intellect, your dualistic, > > > > > > rational mind - then it is definitely not your best teacher (for > > > > > > zen). > > > > > > > > > > > > But if 'you' means experience, Buddha Nature, the absence of ego, > > > > > > itellect, dualism, etc... - then it is definitely your best teacher > > > > > > (for zen). > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], uerusuboyo@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Merle,<br/><br/>Depends what you mean by "you". If 'you' means > > > > > > > your ego, then absolutely not because the mind will colour things > > > > > > > to suit itself. If by 'you' you mean reality, then absolutely > > > > > > > yes! And by reality I mean the immediacy of direct experience. > > > > > > > Buddha said, "Be a lamp unto yourself". Only you will know if the > > > > > > > tea is hot or cold (remember that topic!). A teacher is only a > > > > > > > guide and friend. Ultimately only you can workout your own > > > > > > > salvation. <br/><br/>Mike<br/><br/><br/>Sent from Yahoo! Mail for > > > > > > > iPhone > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
