Edgar, I agree with that statement but probably don't interpret it the same way you do. I think we'd both agree with the first part of the statement. Our difference would be in the second part of the statement and the use of the term 'phenomena'.
I read that as 'experience of phenomena' or more accurately just 'experience' - or as I usually call it 'Buddha Nature'. This is as opposed to thought/illusion which I believe is the subject of the first part of the statement. How do you interpret the term 'phenomena' as used in Dogen's statement? ...Bill! --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > Bill, > > You should really read and understand Dogen for a change. > > He's saying what I say that you condemn, e.g. "It is an illusion to try to > carry out our practice and enlightenment through ourselves, but to have > practice and enlightenment through phenomena, that is enlightenment." > > Edgar > > > > On May 15, 2013, at 10:55 PM, Bill! wrote: > > > Well, here's an attempt at an explanation of that dreaded term > > "Enlightenment" by Dogen. It's of course a translation but probably pretty > > close since the original was written in a modern language (Japanese) in the > > 1200's and translated into English by a team consisting of a native > > Japanese-speaker and a native English-speaker. > > > > It's a little long but well worth a read. > > > > The Actualization of Enlightenment by Eihei Dogen > > > > Translated by Kosen Nishiyama and John Stevens, 1975 > > > > "When all things are the Buddha-dharma, there is enlightenment, illusion, > > practice, life, death, Buddhas, and sentient beings. When all things are > > seen not to have any substance, there is no illusion or enlightenment, no > > Buddhas or sentient beings, no birth, or destruction. Originally the > > Buddhist Way transcends itself and any idea of abundance or lack--still > > there is birth and destruction, illusion and enlightenment, sentient beings > > and Buddhas. Yet people hate to see flowers fall and do not like weeds to > > grow. > > > > It is an illusion to try to carry out our practice and enlightenment > > through ourselves, but to have practice and enlightenment through > > phenomena, that is enlightenment. To have great enlightenment about > > illusion is to be a Buddha. To have great illusion about enlightenment is > > to be a sentient being. Further, some are continually enlightened beyond > > enlightenment but some add more and more illusion. > > > > When Buddhas become Buddhas, it is not necessary for them to be aware they > > are Buddhas. However, they are still enlightened Buddhas and continually > > realize Buddha. Through body and mind we can comprehend the form and sound > > of things. They work together as one. However, if it not like the > > reflection of shadow in a mirror, or the moon reflected in the water. If > > you look at only one side, the other is dark. > > > > To learn the Buddhist way is to learn about oneself. To learn about oneself > > is to forget oneself. To forget oneself is to perceive oneself as all > > things. To realize this is to cast off the body and mind of self and > > others. When you have reached this stage you will be detached even from > > enlightenment but will practice it continually without thinking about it. > > > > When people seek the Dharma [outside themselves] they are immediately far > > removed from its true location. When the Dharma has been received through > > the right transmission, one's real self immediately appears. > > If you are in a boat, and you only look at the riverbank, you will think > > that the riverbank is moving; but if you look at the boat, you will > > discover that the boat itself is actually moving. Similarly, if you try to > > understand the nature of phenomena only through your own confused > > perception you will mistakenly think that your nature is eternal. > > Furthermore, if you have the right practice and return to your origin then > > you will see that all things have no permanent self. > > > > Once firewood is reduced to ashes, it cannot return to firewood; but we > > should not think of ashes as the potential stare of firewood or vice-versa. > > Ash is completely ash and firewood is firewood. They have their own past, > > future, and independent existence. > > > > Similarly, when human beings die, they cannot return to life; but in > > Buddhist teaching we never say that life changes into death. This is an > > established teaching of the Buddhist Dharma. We call it "non-becoming." > > Likewise, death cannot change into life. This is another principle of > > Buddha's Law. This is called "non-destruction". Life and death have > > absolute existence, like the relationship of winter and spring. But do not > > think of winter changing into spring or spring to summer. > > > > When human beings attain enlightenment, it is like the moon reflected in > > the water. The moon appears in the water but does not get wet nor is the > > water disturbed by the moon. Furthermore the light of the moon covers the > > earth and yet it can be contained in small pool of water, a tiny dewdrop, > > or even one minuscule drop of water. > > Just as the moon does not trouble the water in any way, do not think > > enlightenment causes people difficulty. Do not consider enlightenment an > > obstacle in your life. The depths of the dewdrop cannot contain the heights > > of the moon and the sky. > > > > When the True Law is not totally attained, both physically and mentally, > > there is a tendency to think that we posses the complete Law and our work > > is finished. If the Dharma is completely present, there is a realization of > > ones insufficiencies. > > > > For example, if you take a boat to the middle of the ocean, beyond the > > sight of any mountains, and look in all four directions, the ocean appear > > round. However, the ocean is not round, and its virtue is limitless. It is > > like a palace and an adornment of precious jewels. But to us, the ocean > > seems to be one large circle of water. So we see this can be said of all > > things. Depending on the viewpoint we see things in different ways. Correct > > perception depends upon the amount of ones study and practice. In order to > > understand various types of viewpoints we must study the numerous aspects > > and virtues of mountains and oceans, rather than just circles. We should > > know that it is not only so all around us but also within us--even in a > > single drop of water. > > > > Fish in the ocean find the water endless and birds think the sky is without > > limits. However, neither fish nor birds have been separated from their > > element. When their need is great, their utilization is great, when their > > need is small, the utilization is small. They fully utilize every aspect to > > its utmost--freely, limitlessly. However, we should know that if birds are > > separated from their own element they will die. We should know hat water is > > life for fish and the sky is life for birds. In the sky, birds are life; > > and in the water, fish are life. Many more conclusions can be drawn like > > this. There is practice and enlightenment [like the above relationships of > > sky and birds, fish and water]. However, after the clarification of water > > and sky, we can see that if there are birds or fish, that try to enter the > > sky or water, they cannot find either a way or a place. If we understand > > this point, there is actualization of enlightenment in our daily life. If > > we attain this this Way, all our actions are the actualization of > > enlightenment. This Way, this place, is not great or small, self or others, > > neither past or present--it exists just as it is. > > > > Like this, if we practice and realize the Buddhist way we can master and > > penetrate each dharma;and we can confront and master any one practice. > > There is a place where we can penetrate the Way and find the extent of > > knowable perceptions. This happens because our knowledge co-exists > > simultaneously with the ultimate fulfillment of the Buddhist Dharma. > > > > After this fulfillment becomes the basis of our perception, do not think > > that our perception is necessarily understood by the intellect. Although > > enlightenment is actualized quickly, it is not always totally manifested > > [it is too profound an inexhaustible for our limited intellect]. > > > > One day, when Zen Master Hotestsu of Mt. Mayoku was fanning himself, a monk > > approached and asked, "The nature of wind never changes and blows > > everywhere so why are you using a fan." > > > > The master replied, "Although you know the nature of wind never changes you > > do not know the meaning of blowing everywhere". The monk then said, "Well, > > what does it mean?" Hotetsu did not speak but only continue to fan himself. > > Finally the monk understood and bowed deeply before him. > > > > The experience, the realization, and the living, right transmission of the > > Buddhist Dharma is like this. To say it is not necessary to use a fan > > because the ntarue of the wind never changes and there will be wind even > > without one means that he does not know the real meaning of "never changes" > > or the wind's nature. Just as the wind's nature never changes, the wind of > > Buddhism makes the earth golden and cause the rivers to flow with sweet, > > fermented milk." > > > > This was written in mid-autumn, 1233, and given to the lay disciple > > Yo-ko-shu of Kyushu. > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
