Edgar, I don't know what this response means...Bill!
--- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > Bill, > > By direct experience! > > Edgar > > > > On May 16, 2013, at 9:41 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > Edgar, > > > > And how did you determine that btw? > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > I interpret it as the world of forms which btw is the correct translation. > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 16, 2013, at 8:21 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > Edgar, > > > > > > > > I agree with that statement but probably don't interpret it the same > > > > way you do. I think we'd both agree with the first part of the > > > > statement. Our difference would be in the second part of the statement > > > > and the use of the term 'phenomena'. > > > > > > > > I read that as 'experience of phenomena' or more accurately just > > > > 'experience' - or as I usually call it 'Buddha Nature'. This is as > > > > opposed to thought/illusion which I believe is the subject of the first > > > > part of the statement. > > > > > > > > How do you interpret the term 'phenomena' as used in Dogen's statement? > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > > > You should really read and understand Dogen for a change. > > > > > > > > > > He's saying what I say that you condemn, e.g. "It is an illusion to > > > > > try to carry out our practice and enlightenment through ourselves, > > > > > but to have practice and enlightenment through phenomena, that is > > > > > enlightenment." > > > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 15, 2013, at 10:55 PM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Well, here's an attempt at an explanation of that dreaded term > > > > > > "Enlightenment" by Dogen. It's of course a translation but probably > > > > > > pretty close since the original was written in a modern language > > > > > > (Japanese) in the 1200's and translated into English by a team > > > > > > consisting of a native Japanese-speaker and a native > > > > > > English-speaker. > > > > > > > > > > > > It's a little long but well worth a read. > > > > > > > > > > > > The Actualization of Enlightenment by Eihei Dogen > > > > > > > > > > > > Translated by Kosen Nishiyama and John Stevens, 1975 > > > > > > > > > > > > "When all things are the Buddha-dharma, there is enlightenment, > > > > > > illusion, practice, life, death, Buddhas, and sentient beings. When > > > > > > all things are seen not to have any substance, there is no illusion > > > > > > or enlightenment, no Buddhas or sentient beings, no birth, or > > > > > > destruction. Originally the Buddhist Way transcends itself and any > > > > > > idea of abundance or lack--still there is birth and destruction, > > > > > > illusion and enlightenment, sentient beings and Buddhas. Yet people > > > > > > hate to see flowers fall and do not like weeds to grow. > > > > > > > > > > > > It is an illusion to try to carry out our practice and > > > > > > enlightenment through ourselves, but to have practice and > > > > > > enlightenment through phenomena, that is enlightenment. To have > > > > > > great enlightenment about illusion is to be a Buddha. To have great > > > > > > illusion about enlightenment is to be a sentient being. Further, > > > > > > some are continually enlightened beyond enlightenment but some add > > > > > > more and more illusion. > > > > > > > > > > > > When Buddhas become Buddhas, it is not necessary for them to be > > > > > > aware they are Buddhas. However, they are still enlightened Buddhas > > > > > > and continually realize Buddha. Through body and mind we can > > > > > > comprehend the form and sound of things. They work together as one. > > > > > > However, if it not like the reflection of shadow in a mirror, or > > > > > > the moon reflected in the water. If you look at only one side, the > > > > > > other is dark. > > > > > > > > > > > > To learn the Buddhist way is to learn about oneself. To learn about > > > > > > oneself is to forget oneself. To forget oneself is to perceive > > > > > > oneself as all things. To realize this is to cast off the body and > > > > > > mind of self and others. When you have reached this stage you will > > > > > > be detached even from enlightenment but will practice it > > > > > > continually without thinking about it. > > > > > > > > > > > > When people seek the Dharma [outside themselves] they are > > > > > > immediately far removed from its true location. When the Dharma has > > > > > > been received through the right transmission, one's real self > > > > > > immediately appears. > > > > > > If you are in a boat, and you only look at the riverbank, you will > > > > > > think that the riverbank is moving; but if you look at the boat, > > > > > > you will discover that the boat itself is actually moving. > > > > > > Similarly, if you try to understand the nature of phenomena only > > > > > > through your own confused perception you will mistakenly think that > > > > > > your nature is eternal. Furthermore, if you have the right practice > > > > > > and return to your origin then you will see that all things have no > > > > > > permanent self. > > > > > > > > > > > > Once firewood is reduced to ashes, it cannot return to firewood; > > > > > > but we should not think of ashes as the potential stare of firewood > > > > > > or vice-versa. Ash is completely ash and firewood is firewood. They > > > > > > have their own past, future, and independent existence. > > > > > > > > > > > > Similarly, when human beings die, they cannot return to life; but > > > > > > in Buddhist teaching we never say that life changes into death. > > > > > > This is an established teaching of the Buddhist Dharma. We call it > > > > > > "non-becoming." Likewise, death cannot change into life. This is > > > > > > another principle of Buddha's Law. This is called > > > > > > "non-destruction". Life and death have absolute existence, like the > > > > > > relationship of winter and spring. But do not think of winter > > > > > > changing into spring or spring to summer. > > > > > > > > > > > > When human beings attain enlightenment, it is like the moon > > > > > > reflected in the water. The moon appears in the water but does not > > > > > > get wet nor is the water disturbed by the moon. Furthermore the > > > > > > light of the moon covers the earth and yet it can be contained in > > > > > > small pool of water, a tiny dewdrop, or even one minuscule drop of > > > > > > water. > > > > > > Just as the moon does not trouble the water in any way, do not > > > > > > think enlightenment causes people difficulty. Do not consider > > > > > > enlightenment an obstacle in your life. The depths of the dewdrop > > > > > > cannot contain the heights of the moon and the sky. > > > > > > > > > > > > When the True Law is not totally attained, both physically and > > > > > > mentally, there is a tendency to think that we posses the complete > > > > > > Law and our work is finished. If the Dharma is completely present, > > > > > > there is a realization of ones insufficiencies. > > > > > > > > > > > > For example, if you take a boat to the middle of the ocean, beyond > > > > > > the sight of any mountains, and look in all four directions, the > > > > > > ocean appear round. However, the ocean is not round, and its virtue > > > > > > is limitless. It is like a palace and an adornment of precious > > > > > > jewels. But to us, the ocean seems to be one large circle of water. > > > > > > So we see this can be said of all things. Depending on the > > > > > > viewpoint we see things in different ways. Correct perception > > > > > > depends upon the amount of ones study and practice. In order to > > > > > > understand various types of viewpoints we must study the numerous > > > > > > aspects and virtues of mountains and oceans, rather than just > > > > > > circles. We should know that it is not only so all around us but > > > > > > also within us--even in a single drop of water. > > > > > > > > > > > > Fish in the ocean find the water endless and birds think the sky is > > > > > > without limits. However, neither fish nor birds have been separated > > > > > > from their element. When their need is great, their utilization is > > > > > > great, when their need is small, the utilization is small. They > > > > > > fully utilize every aspect to its utmost--freely, limitlessly. > > > > > > However, we should know that if birds are separated from their own > > > > > > element they will die. We should know hat water is life for fish > > > > > > and the sky is life for birds. In the sky, birds are life; and in > > > > > > the water, fish are life. Many more conclusions can be drawn like > > > > > > this. There is practice and enlightenment [like the above > > > > > > relationships of sky and birds, fish and water]. However, after the > > > > > > clarification of water and sky, we can see that if there are birds > > > > > > or fish, that try to enter the sky or water, they cannot find > > > > > > either a way or a place. If we understand this point, there is > > > > > > actualization of enlightenment in our daily life. If we attain this > > > > > > this Way, all our actions are the actualization of enlightenment. > > > > > > This Way, this place, is not great or small, self or others, > > > > > > neither past or present--it exists just as it is. > > > > > > > > > > > > Like this, if we practice and realize the Buddhist way we can > > > > > > master and penetrate each dharma;and we can confront and master any > > > > > > one practice. There is a place where we can penetrate the Way and > > > > > > find the extent of knowable perceptions. This happens because our > > > > > > knowledge co-exists simultaneously with the ultimate fulfillment of > > > > > > the Buddhist Dharma. > > > > > > > > > > > > After this fulfillment becomes the basis of our perception, do not > > > > > > think that our perception is necessarily understood by the > > > > > > intellect. Although enlightenment is actualized quickly, it is not > > > > > > always totally manifested [it is too profound an inexhaustible for > > > > > > our limited intellect]. > > > > > > > > > > > > One day, when Zen Master Hotestsu of Mt. Mayoku was fanning > > > > > > himself, a monk approached and asked, "The nature of wind never > > > > > > changes and blows everywhere so why are you using a fan." > > > > > > > > > > > > The master replied, "Although you know the nature of wind never > > > > > > changes you do not know the meaning of blowing everywhere". The > > > > > > monk then said, "Well, what does it mean?" Hotetsu did not speak > > > > > > but only continue to fan himself. Finally the monk understood and > > > > > > bowed deeply before him. > > > > > > > > > > > > The experience, the realization, and the living, right transmission > > > > > > of the Buddhist Dharma is like this. To say it is not necessary to > > > > > > use a fan because the ntarue of the wind never changes and there > > > > > > will be wind even without one means that he does not know the real > > > > > > meaning of "never changes" or the wind's nature. Just as the wind's > > > > > > nature never changes, the wind of Buddhism makes the earth golden > > > > > > and cause the rivers to flow with sweet, fermented milk." > > > > > > > > > > > > This was written in mid-autumn, 1233, and given to the lay disciple > > > > > > Yo-ko-shu of Kyushu. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! 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