Bill, By direct experience!
Edgar On May 16, 2013, at 9:41 AM, Bill! wrote: > Edgar, > > And how did you determine that btw? > > ...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > > > I interpret it as the world of forms which btw is the correct translation. > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > On May 16, 2013, at 8:21 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > Edgar, > > > > > > I agree with that statement but probably don't interpret it the same way > > > you do. I think we'd both agree with the first part of the statement. Our > > > difference would be in the second part of the statement and the use of > > > the term 'phenomena'. > > > > > > I read that as 'experience of phenomena' or more accurately just > > > 'experience' - or as I usually call it 'Buddha Nature'. This is as > > > opposed to thought/illusion which I believe is the subject of the first > > > part of the statement. > > > > > > How do you interpret the term 'phenomena' as used in Dogen's statement? > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > You should really read and understand Dogen for a change. > > > > > > > > He's saying what I say that you condemn, e.g. "It is an illusion to try > > > > to carry out our practice and enlightenment through ourselves, but to > > > > have practice and enlightenment through phenomena, that is > > > > enlightenment." > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 15, 2013, at 10:55 PM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > > > Well, here's an attempt at an explanation of that dreaded term > > > > > "Enlightenment" by Dogen. It's of course a translation but probably > > > > > pretty close since the original was written in a modern language > > > > > (Japanese) in the 1200's and translated into English by a team > > > > > consisting of a native Japanese-speaker and a native English-speaker. > > > > > > > > > > It's a little long but well worth a read. > > > > > > > > > > The Actualization of Enlightenment by Eihei Dogen > > > > > > > > > > Translated by Kosen Nishiyama and John Stevens, 1975 > > > > > > > > > > "When all things are the Buddha-dharma, there is enlightenment, > > > > > illusion, practice, life, death, Buddhas, and sentient beings. When > > > > > all things are seen not to have any substance, there is no illusion > > > > > or enlightenment, no Buddhas or sentient beings, no birth, or > > > > > destruction. Originally the Buddhist Way transcends itself and any > > > > > idea of abundance or lack--still there is birth and destruction, > > > > > illusion and enlightenment, sentient beings and Buddhas. Yet people > > > > > hate to see flowers fall and do not like weeds to grow. > > > > > > > > > > It is an illusion to try to carry out our practice and enlightenment > > > > > through ourselves, but to have practice and enlightenment through > > > > > phenomena, that is enlightenment. To have great enlightenment about > > > > > illusion is to be a Buddha. To have great illusion about > > > > > enlightenment is to be a sentient being. Further, some are > > > > > continually enlightened beyond enlightenment but some add more and > > > > > more illusion. > > > > > > > > > > When Buddhas become Buddhas, it is not necessary for them to be aware > > > > > they are Buddhas. However, they are still enlightened Buddhas and > > > > > continually realize Buddha. Through body and mind we can comprehend > > > > > the form and sound of things. They work together as one. However, if > > > > > it not like the reflection of shadow in a mirror, or the moon > > > > > reflected in the water. If you look at only one side, the other is > > > > > dark. > > > > > > > > > > To learn the Buddhist way is to learn about oneself. To learn about > > > > > oneself is to forget oneself. To forget oneself is to perceive > > > > > oneself as all things. To realize this is to cast off the body and > > > > > mind of self and others. When you have reached this stage you will be > > > > > detached even from enlightenment but will practice it continually > > > > > without thinking about it. > > > > > > > > > > When people seek the Dharma [outside themselves] they are immediately > > > > > far removed from its true location. When the Dharma has been received > > > > > through the right transmission, one's real self immediately appears. > > > > > If you are in a boat, and you only look at the riverbank, you will > > > > > think that the riverbank is moving; but if you look at the boat, you > > > > > will discover that the boat itself is actually moving. Similarly, if > > > > > you try to understand the nature of phenomena only through your own > > > > > confused perception you will mistakenly think that your nature is > > > > > eternal. Furthermore, if you have the right practice and return to > > > > > your origin then you will see that all things have no permanent self. > > > > > > > > > > Once firewood is reduced to ashes, it cannot return to firewood; but > > > > > we should not think of ashes as the potential stare of firewood or > > > > > vice-versa. Ash is completely ash and firewood is firewood. They have > > > > > their own past, future, and independent existence. > > > > > > > > > > Similarly, when human beings die, they cannot return to life; but in > > > > > Buddhist teaching we never say that life changes into death. This is > > > > > an established teaching of the Buddhist Dharma. We call it > > > > > "non-becoming." Likewise, death cannot change into life. This is > > > > > another principle of Buddha's Law. This is called "non-destruction". > > > > > Life and death have absolute existence, like the relationship of > > > > > winter and spring. But do not think of winter changing into spring or > > > > > spring to summer. > > > > > > > > > > When human beings attain enlightenment, it is like the moon reflected > > > > > in the water. The moon appears in the water but does not get wet nor > > > > > is the water disturbed by the moon. Furthermore the light of the moon > > > > > covers the earth and yet it can be contained in small pool of water, > > > > > a tiny dewdrop, or even one minuscule drop of water. > > > > > Just as the moon does not trouble the water in any way, do not think > > > > > enlightenment causes people difficulty. Do not consider enlightenment > > > > > an obstacle in your life. The depths of the dewdrop cannot contain > > > > > the heights of the moon and the sky. > > > > > > > > > > When the True Law is not totally attained, both physically and > > > > > mentally, there is a tendency to think that we posses the complete > > > > > Law and our work is finished. If the Dharma is completely present, > > > > > there is a realization of ones insufficiencies. > > > > > > > > > > For example, if you take a boat to the middle of the ocean, beyond > > > > > the sight of any mountains, and look in all four directions, the > > > > > ocean appear round. However, the ocean is not round, and its virtue > > > > > is limitless. It is like a palace and an adornment of precious > > > > > jewels. But to us, the ocean seems to be one large circle of water. > > > > > So we see this can be said of all things. Depending on the viewpoint > > > > > we see things in different ways. Correct perception depends upon the > > > > > amount of ones study and practice. In order to understand various > > > > > types of viewpoints we must study the numerous aspects and virtues of > > > > > mountains and oceans, rather than just circles. We should know that > > > > > it is not only so all around us but also within us--even in a single > > > > > drop of water. > > > > > > > > > > Fish in the ocean find the water endless and birds think the sky is > > > > > without limits. However, neither fish nor birds have been separated > > > > > from their element. When their need is great, their utilization is > > > > > great, when their need is small, the utilization is small. They fully > > > > > utilize every aspect to its utmost--freely, limitlessly. However, we > > > > > should know that if birds are separated from their own element they > > > > > will die. We should know hat water is life for fish and the sky is > > > > > life for birds. In the sky, birds are life; and in the water, fish > > > > > are life. Many more conclusions can be drawn like this. There is > > > > > practice and enlightenment [like the above relationships of sky and > > > > > birds, fish and water]. However, after the clarification of water and > > > > > sky, we can see that if there are birds or fish, that try to enter > > > > > the sky or water, they cannot find either a way or a place. If we > > > > > understand this point, there is actualization of enlightenment in our > > > > > daily life. If we attain this this Way, all our actions are the > > > > > actualization of enlightenment. This Way, this place, is not great or > > > > > small, self or others, neither past or present--it exists just as it > > > > > is. > > > > > > > > > > Like this, if we practice and realize the Buddhist way we can master > > > > > and penetrate each dharma;and we can confront and master any one > > > > > practice. There is a place where we can penetrate the Way and find > > > > > the extent of knowable perceptions. This happens because our > > > > > knowledge co-exists simultaneously with the ultimate fulfillment of > > > > > the Buddhist Dharma. > > > > > > > > > > After this fulfillment becomes the basis of our perception, do not > > > > > think that our perception is necessarily understood by the intellect. > > > > > Although enlightenment is actualized quickly, it is not always > > > > > totally manifested [it is too profound an inexhaustible for our > > > > > limited intellect]. > > > > > > > > > > One day, when Zen Master Hotestsu of Mt. Mayoku was fanning himself, > > > > > a monk approached and asked, "The nature of wind never changes and > > > > > blows everywhere so why are you using a fan." > > > > > > > > > > The master replied, "Although you know the nature of wind never > > > > > changes you do not know the meaning of blowing everywhere". The monk > > > > > then said, "Well, what does it mean?" Hotetsu did not speak but only > > > > > continue to fan himself. Finally the monk understood and bowed deeply > > > > > before him. > > > > > > > > > > The experience, the realization, and the living, right transmission > > > > > of the Buddhist Dharma is like this. To say it is not necessary to > > > > > use a fan because the ntarue of the wind never changes and there will > > > > > be wind even without one means that he does not know the real meaning > > > > > of "never changes" or the wind's nature. Just as the wind's nature > > > > > never changes, the wind of Buddhism makes the earth golden and cause > > > > > the rivers to flow with sweet, fermented milk." > > > > > > > > > > This was written in mid-autumn, 1233, and given to the lay disciple > > > > > Yo-ko-shu of Kyushu. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
