Edgar, There is no external world. That perception (illusion) is created by our intellect.
I agree that humans create a mental model. That is called perception and I include that as an illusion. Any structure perceived is indeed the mental model. I disagree with you about what the ancient zen master, or anyone who has experienced Buddha Nature for that matter, would disagree. ...Bill! --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > Bill, > > No, the world of forms is the real actual information structure of the > external world. > > Humans, and other organismic observers, all create an internal mental model > of that external structure. That internal model in your mind is your > definition.. > > You claim that your mental model is the only structure in reality which is > about as ridiculous an idea as anyone could have. Dogen and all the Zen > masters knew better.... > > Edgar > > > > On May 16, 2013, at 10:16 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > Edgar, > > > > It's late here and I'm going to bed soon. Before I do I'll leave you with > > my defintion of 'the world of forms'. You can comment on it and I'll pick > > it up when I sign back in tomorrow afternoon. > > > > The 'world of forms' are all the illusions our intellect creates. They are > > dualistic in nature. The prime example is the illusion of the self as > > separate and distinct from everything else. I guess you could say > > 'everything else' is the 'world of forms'. This includes the perception of > > desks, chairs, other people, trees, buses, dogs, sunsets, spider webs, > > etc... as things separate and apart from 'you'. It also includes logic, > > reason and all rules we perceive apply to the 'world of forms'. > > > > It is also what often obscures Buddha Nature which is (sensual) experience. > > > > So...what is your definition of 'the world of forms'? > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > > > Edgar, > > > > > > And how did you determine that btw? > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > > > I interpret it as the world of forms which btw is the correct > > > > translation. > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 16, 2013, at 8:21 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > > > Edgar, > > > > > > > > > > I agree with that statement but probably don't interpret it the same > > > > > way you do. I think we'd both agree with the first part of the > > > > > statement. Our difference would be in the second part of the > > > > > statement and the use of the term 'phenomena'. > > > > > > > > > > I read that as 'experience of phenomena' or more accurately just > > > > > 'experience' - or as I usually call it 'Buddha Nature'. This is as > > > > > opposed to thought/illusion which I believe is the subject of the > > > > > first part of the statement. > > > > > > > > > > How do you interpret the term 'phenomena' as used in Dogen's > > > > > statement? > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > > > > > You should really read and understand Dogen for a change. > > > > > > > > > > > > He's saying what I say that you condemn, e.g. "It is an illusion to > > > > > > try to carry out our practice and enlightenment through ourselves, > > > > > > but to have practice and enlightenment through phenomena, that is > > > > > > enlightenment." > > > > > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 15, 2013, at 10:55 PM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, here's an attempt at an explanation of that dreaded term > > > > > > > "Enlightenment" by Dogen. It's of course a translation but > > > > > > > probably pretty close since the original was written in a modern > > > > > > > language (Japanese) in the 1200's and translated into English by > > > > > > > a team consisting of a native Japanese-speaker and a native > > > > > > > English-speaker. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's a little long but well worth a read. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The Actualization of Enlightenment by Eihei Dogen > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Translated by Kosen Nishiyama and John Stevens, 1975 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "When all things are the Buddha-dharma, there is enlightenment, > > > > > > > illusion, practice, life, death, Buddhas, and sentient beings. > > > > > > > When all things are seen not to have any substance, there is no > > > > > > > illusion or enlightenment, no Buddhas or sentient beings, no > > > > > > > birth, or destruction. Originally the Buddhist Way transcends > > > > > > > itself and any idea of abundance or lack--still there is birth > > > > > > > and destruction, illusion and enlightenment, sentient beings and > > > > > > > Buddhas. Yet people hate to see flowers fall and do not like > > > > > > > weeds to grow. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is an illusion to try to carry out our practice and > > > > > > > enlightenment through ourselves, but to have practice and > > > > > > > enlightenment through phenomena, that is enlightenment. To have > > > > > > > great enlightenment about illusion is to be a Buddha. To have > > > > > > > great illusion about enlightenment is to be a sentient being. > > > > > > > Further, some are continually enlightened beyond enlightenment > > > > > > > but some add more and more illusion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When Buddhas become Buddhas, it is not necessary for them to be > > > > > > > aware they are Buddhas. However, they are still enlightened > > > > > > > Buddhas and continually realize Buddha. Through body and mind we > > > > > > > can comprehend the form and sound of things. They work together > > > > > > > as one. However, if it not like the reflection of shadow in a > > > > > > > mirror, or the moon reflected in the water. If you look at only > > > > > > > one side, the other is dark. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To learn the Buddhist way is to learn about oneself. To learn > > > > > > > about oneself is to forget oneself. To forget oneself is to > > > > > > > perceive oneself as all things. To realize this is to cast off > > > > > > > the body and mind of self and others. When you have reached this > > > > > > > stage you will be detached even from enlightenment but will > > > > > > > practice it continually without thinking about it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When people seek the Dharma [outside themselves] they are > > > > > > > immediately far removed from its true location. When the Dharma > > > > > > > has been received through the right transmission, one's real self > > > > > > > immediately appears. > > > > > > > If you are in a boat, and you only look at the riverbank, you > > > > > > > will think that the riverbank is moving; but if you look at the > > > > > > > boat, you will discover that the boat itself is actually moving. > > > > > > > Similarly, if you try to understand the nature of phenomena only > > > > > > > through your own confused perception you will mistakenly think > > > > > > > that your nature is eternal. Furthermore, if you have the right > > > > > > > practice and return to your origin then you will see that all > > > > > > > things have no permanent self. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Once firewood is reduced to ashes, it cannot return to firewood; > > > > > > > but we should not think of ashes as the potential stare of > > > > > > > firewood or vice-versa. Ash is completely ash and firewood is > > > > > > > firewood. They have their own past, future, and independent > > > > > > > existence. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Similarly, when human beings die, they cannot return to life; but > > > > > > > in Buddhist teaching we never say that life changes into death. > > > > > > > This is an established teaching of the Buddhist Dharma. We call > > > > > > > it "non-becoming." Likewise, death cannot change into life. This > > > > > > > is another principle of Buddha's Law. This is called > > > > > > > "non-destruction". Life and death have absolute existence, like > > > > > > > the relationship of winter and spring. But do not think of winter > > > > > > > changing into spring or spring to summer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When human beings attain enlightenment, it is like the moon > > > > > > > reflected in the water. The moon appears in the water but does > > > > > > > not get wet nor is the water disturbed by the moon. Furthermore > > > > > > > the light of the moon covers the earth and yet it can be > > > > > > > contained in small pool of water, a tiny dewdrop, or even one > > > > > > > minuscule drop of water. > > > > > > > Just as the moon does not trouble the water in any way, do not > > > > > > > think enlightenment causes people difficulty. Do not consider > > > > > > > enlightenment an obstacle in your life. The depths of the dewdrop > > > > > > > cannot contain the heights of the moon and the sky. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When the True Law is not totally attained, both physically and > > > > > > > mentally, there is a tendency to think that we posses the > > > > > > > complete Law and our work is finished. If the Dharma is > > > > > > > completely present, there is a realization of ones > > > > > > > insufficiencies. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For example, if you take a boat to the middle of the ocean, > > > > > > > beyond the sight of any mountains, and look in all four > > > > > > > directions, the ocean appear round. However, the ocean is not > > > > > > > round, and its virtue is limitless. It is like a palace and an > > > > > > > adornment of precious jewels. But to us, the ocean seems to be > > > > > > > one large circle of water. So we see this can be said of all > > > > > > > things. Depending on the viewpoint we see things in different > > > > > > > ways. Correct perception depends upon the amount of ones study > > > > > > > and practice. In order to understand various types of viewpoints > > > > > > > we must study the numerous aspects and virtues of mountains and > > > > > > > oceans, rather than just circles. We should know that it is not > > > > > > > only so all around us but also within us--even in a single drop > > > > > > > of water. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fish in the ocean find the water endless and birds think the sky > > > > > > > is without limits. However, neither fish nor birds have been > > > > > > > separated from their element. When their need is great, their > > > > > > > utilization is great, when their need is small, the utilization > > > > > > > is small. They fully utilize every aspect to its utmost--freely, > > > > > > > limitlessly. However, we should know that if birds are separated > > > > > > > from their own element they will die. We should know hat water is > > > > > > > life for fish and the sky is life for birds. In the sky, birds > > > > > > > are life; and in the water, fish are life. Many more conclusions > > > > > > > can be drawn like this. There is practice and enlightenment [like > > > > > > > the above relationships of sky and birds, fish and water]. > > > > > > > However, after the clarification of water and sky, we can see > > > > > > > that if there are birds or fish, that try to enter the sky or > > > > > > > water, they cannot find either a way or a place. If we understand > > > > > > > this point, there is actualization of enlightenment in our daily > > > > > > > life. If we attain this this Way, all our actions are the > > > > > > > actualization of enlightenment. This Way, this place, is not > > > > > > > great or small, self or others, neither past or present--it > > > > > > > exists just as it is. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Like this, if we practice and realize the Buddhist way we can > > > > > > > master and penetrate each dharma;and we can confront and master > > > > > > > any one practice. There is a place where we can penetrate the Way > > > > > > > and find the extent of knowable perceptions. This happens because > > > > > > > our knowledge co-exists simultaneously with the ultimate > > > > > > > fulfillment of the Buddhist Dharma. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > After this fulfillment becomes the basis of our perception, do > > > > > > > not think that our perception is necessarily understood by the > > > > > > > intellect. Although enlightenment is actualized quickly, it is > > > > > > > not always totally manifested [it is too profound an > > > > > > > inexhaustible for our limited intellect]. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One day, when Zen Master Hotestsu of Mt. Mayoku was fanning > > > > > > > himself, a monk approached and asked, "The nature of wind never > > > > > > > changes and blows everywhere so why are you using a fan." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The master replied, "Although you know the nature of wind never > > > > > > > changes you do not know the meaning of blowing everywhere". The > > > > > > > monk then said, "Well, what does it mean?" Hotetsu did not speak > > > > > > > but only continue to fan himself. Finally the monk understood and > > > > > > > bowed deeply before him. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The experience, the realization, and the living, right > > > > > > > transmission of the Buddhist Dharma is like this. To say it is > > > > > > > not necessary to use a fan because the ntarue of the wind never > > > > > > > changes and there will be wind even without one means that he > > > > > > > does not know the real meaning of "never changes" or the wind's > > > > > > > nature. Just as the wind's nature never changes, the wind of > > > > > > > Buddhism makes the earth golden and cause the rivers to flow with > > > > > > > sweet, fermented milk." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This was written in mid-autumn, 1233, and given to the lay > > > > > > > disciple Yo-ko-shu of Kyushu. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! 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