Edgar, And how did you determine that btw?
...Bill! --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > I interpret it as the world of forms which btw is the correct translation. > > Edgar > > > > On May 16, 2013, at 8:21 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > Edgar, > > > > I agree with that statement but probably don't interpret it the same way > > you do. I think we'd both agree with the first part of the statement. Our > > difference would be in the second part of the statement and the use of the > > term 'phenomena'. > > > > I read that as 'experience of phenomena' or more accurately just > > 'experience' - or as I usually call it 'Buddha Nature'. This is as opposed > > to thought/illusion which I believe is the subject of the first part of the > > statement. > > > > How do you interpret the term 'phenomena' as used in Dogen's statement? > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > You should really read and understand Dogen for a change. > > > > > > He's saying what I say that you condemn, e.g. "It is an illusion to try > > > to carry out our practice and enlightenment through ourselves, but to > > > have practice and enlightenment through phenomena, that is enlightenment." > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 15, 2013, at 10:55 PM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > Well, here's an attempt at an explanation of that dreaded term > > > > "Enlightenment" by Dogen. It's of course a translation but probably > > > > pretty close since the original was written in a modern language > > > > (Japanese) in the 1200's and translated into English by a team > > > > consisting of a native Japanese-speaker and a native English-speaker. > > > > > > > > It's a little long but well worth a read. > > > > > > > > The Actualization of Enlightenment by Eihei Dogen > > > > > > > > Translated by Kosen Nishiyama and John Stevens, 1975 > > > > > > > > "When all things are the Buddha-dharma, there is enlightenment, > > > > illusion, practice, life, death, Buddhas, and sentient beings. When all > > > > things are seen not to have any substance, there is no illusion or > > > > enlightenment, no Buddhas or sentient beings, no birth, or destruction. > > > > Originally the Buddhist Way transcends itself and any idea of abundance > > > > or lack--still there is birth and destruction, illusion and > > > > enlightenment, sentient beings and Buddhas. Yet people hate to see > > > > flowers fall and do not like weeds to grow. > > > > > > > > It is an illusion to try to carry out our practice and enlightenment > > > > through ourselves, but to have practice and enlightenment through > > > > phenomena, that is enlightenment. To have great enlightenment about > > > > illusion is to be a Buddha. To have great illusion about enlightenment > > > > is to be a sentient being. Further, some are continually enlightened > > > > beyond enlightenment but some add more and more illusion. > > > > > > > > When Buddhas become Buddhas, it is not necessary for them to be aware > > > > they are Buddhas. However, they are still enlightened Buddhas and > > > > continually realize Buddha. Through body and mind we can comprehend the > > > > form and sound of things. They work together as one. However, if it not > > > > like the reflection of shadow in a mirror, or the moon reflected in the > > > > water. If you look at only one side, the other is dark. > > > > > > > > To learn the Buddhist way is to learn about oneself. To learn about > > > > oneself is to forget oneself. To forget oneself is to perceive oneself > > > > as all things. To realize this is to cast off the body and mind of self > > > > and others. When you have reached this stage you will be detached even > > > > from enlightenment but will practice it continually without thinking > > > > about it. > > > > > > > > When people seek the Dharma [outside themselves] they are immediately > > > > far removed from its true location. When the Dharma has been received > > > > through the right transmission, one's real self immediately appears. > > > > If you are in a boat, and you only look at the riverbank, you will > > > > think that the riverbank is moving; but if you look at the boat, you > > > > will discover that the boat itself is actually moving. Similarly, if > > > > you try to understand the nature of phenomena only through your own > > > > confused perception you will mistakenly think that your nature is > > > > eternal. Furthermore, if you have the right practice and return to your > > > > origin then you will see that all things have no permanent self. > > > > > > > > Once firewood is reduced to ashes, it cannot return to firewood; but we > > > > should not think of ashes as the potential stare of firewood or > > > > vice-versa. Ash is completely ash and firewood is firewood. They have > > > > their own past, future, and independent existence. > > > > > > > > Similarly, when human beings die, they cannot return to life; but in > > > > Buddhist teaching we never say that life changes into death. This is an > > > > established teaching of the Buddhist Dharma. We call it "non-becoming." > > > > Likewise, death cannot change into life. This is another principle of > > > > Buddha's Law. This is called "non-destruction". Life and death have > > > > absolute existence, like the relationship of winter and spring. But do > > > > not think of winter changing into spring or spring to summer. > > > > > > > > When human beings attain enlightenment, it is like the moon reflected > > > > in the water. The moon appears in the water but does not get wet nor is > > > > the water disturbed by the moon. Furthermore the light of the moon > > > > covers the earth and yet it can be contained in small pool of water, a > > > > tiny dewdrop, or even one minuscule drop of water. > > > > Just as the moon does not trouble the water in any way, do not think > > > > enlightenment causes people difficulty. Do not consider enlightenment > > > > an obstacle in your life. The depths of the dewdrop cannot contain the > > > > heights of the moon and the sky. > > > > > > > > When the True Law is not totally attained, both physically and > > > > mentally, there is a tendency to think that we posses the complete Law > > > > and our work is finished. If the Dharma is completely present, there is > > > > a realization of ones insufficiencies. > > > > > > > > For example, if you take a boat to the middle of the ocean, beyond the > > > > sight of any mountains, and look in all four directions, the ocean > > > > appear round. However, the ocean is not round, and its virtue is > > > > limitless. It is like a palace and an adornment of precious jewels. But > > > > to us, the ocean seems to be one large circle of water. So we see this > > > > can be said of all things. Depending on the viewpoint we see things in > > > > different ways. Correct perception depends upon the amount of ones > > > > study and practice. In order to understand various types of viewpoints > > > > we must study the numerous aspects and virtues of mountains and oceans, > > > > rather than just circles. We should know that it is not only so all > > > > around us but also within us--even in a single drop of water. > > > > > > > > Fish in the ocean find the water endless and birds think the sky is > > > > without limits. However, neither fish nor birds have been separated > > > > from their element. When their need is great, their utilization is > > > > great, when their need is small, the utilization is small. They fully > > > > utilize every aspect to its utmost--freely, limitlessly. However, we > > > > should know that if birds are separated from their own element they > > > > will die. We should know hat water is life for fish and the sky is life > > > > for birds. In the sky, birds are life; and in the water, fish are life. > > > > Many more conclusions can be drawn like this. There is practice and > > > > enlightenment [like the above relationships of sky and birds, fish and > > > > water]. However, after the clarification of water and sky, we can see > > > > that if there are birds or fish, that try to enter the sky or water, > > > > they cannot find either a way or a place. If we understand this point, > > > > there is actualization of enlightenment in our daily life. If we attain > > > > this this Way, all our actions are the actualization of enlightenment. > > > > This Way, this place, is not great or small, self or others, neither > > > > past or present--it exists just as it is. > > > > > > > > Like this, if we practice and realize the Buddhist way we can master > > > > and penetrate each dharma;and we can confront and master any one > > > > practice. There is a place where we can penetrate the Way and find the > > > > extent of knowable perceptions. This happens because our knowledge > > > > co-exists simultaneously with the ultimate fulfillment of the Buddhist > > > > Dharma. > > > > > > > > After this fulfillment becomes the basis of our perception, do not > > > > think that our perception is necessarily understood by the intellect. > > > > Although enlightenment is actualized quickly, it is not always totally > > > > manifested [it is too profound an inexhaustible for our limited > > > > intellect]. > > > > > > > > One day, when Zen Master Hotestsu of Mt. Mayoku was fanning himself, a > > > > monk approached and asked, "The nature of wind never changes and blows > > > > everywhere so why are you using a fan." > > > > > > > > The master replied, "Although you know the nature of wind never changes > > > > you do not know the meaning of blowing everywhere". The monk then said, > > > > "Well, what does it mean?" Hotetsu did not speak but only continue to > > > > fan himself. Finally the monk understood and bowed deeply before him. > > > > > > > > The experience, the realization, and the living, right transmission of > > > > the Buddhist Dharma is like this. To say it is not necessary to use a > > > > fan because the ntarue of the wind never changes and there will be wind > > > > even without one means that he does not know the real meaning of "never > > > > changes" or the wind's nature. Just as the wind's nature never changes, > > > > the wind of Buddhism makes the earth golden and cause the rivers to > > > > flow with sweet, fermented milk." > > > > > > > > This was written in mid-autumn, 1233, and given to the lay disciple > > > > Yo-ko-shu of Kyushu. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! 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