JM, This is correct but JM expresses only the first part.
Initially realization involves stopping thinking. (As in sitting Buddha Nature is directly realized) But after that realization is brought BACK into thinking and thinking is realized as part of Buddha Nature. If that were not true Realized masters would be unable to think without losing their realization. And Realized masters clearly DO THINK without losing their realization.... Therefore thinking becomes part of realization..... Realization is the realization of everything without exception including thinking..... Realization is the realization of the true nature of ALL things. Realization is not just making the world of things and thoughts go away... Edgar On May 19, 2013, at 12:11 PM, Juemiao Jingming wrote: > > Hi Bill, > > As I said, your definition of zen, is also part of Chan. Not different, just > incomplete. > > If we go back to the origin, Chan is "Not cast in words. Transmit beyond > teaching." > > In other words, Chan does not involve with any concept or logic. Chan is pure > transmission, meaning synchronization. > > All practices are part of Chan. Just different routes, some more direct. > > The key is not trying to understand it, but to feel and sense it. Begins by > completely drop our logic. > > For your reference. > Jm > > On May 19, 2013 7:06 AM, "Bill!" <[email protected]> wrote: > > JMJM, > > I've never insisted that zen and Chan are different. I've only pointed out > that some of your descriptions of Chan are different from what I know as zen. > > I don't think there are any fundamental difference, but then again I don't > know for sure. Like I said below zen is not everything. It is a practice. > There are human activities that are not part of that practice. > > If that's different for Chan then they are different. > > ...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], 覺妙精明 （JMJM） <chan.jmjm@...> > wrote: > > > > Hi Bill, > > > > You always insisted that there are differences in zen, Zen, Chan. I can > > accept all of that, because all of that is inclusive in Chan. They are > > all description of the same one fundamental thing, the universal life > > force and wisdom and all of its manifestations. > > > > JM > > > > > > On 5/19/2013 6:52 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > JMJM and Edgar, > > > > > > I don't know about Chan, but zen is a human practice that assists in > > > balancing the interplay between Human Nature and Buddha Nature. I went > > > on to describe it in more detail in a recent post. > > > > > > It is not everything. It is a practice. There are human activities > > > that are not part of that practice. > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > --- In [email protected] <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, > > > Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > > > JMJM, > > > > > > > > That's my understanding too. That's how I use the word though I > > > usually refer to it as Zen. > > > > > > > > It's not something confined to any sect, temple or teacher though it > > > may be recognized and taught therein. > > > > > > > > Chan or Zen is just a name for the fundamental reality of the world. > > > But the name is not the reality, it just references the reality... > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 19, 2013, at 9:08 AM, 覺妙精明 > > > > （JMJM） wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi Mike, > > > > > > > > > > Chan is the absolute and most fundamental dharma. Chan is the > > > essence of all and everything. > > > > > Chan can be expressed with any kind of word or no word at all. > > > > > > > > > > JM > > > > > > > > > > On 5/19/2013 1:00 AM, uerusuboyo@ wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >> Would it be fair to say that Cha'n still retains more of its > > > original Indian Mahayana flavour than Japanese Zen? At least in it's > > > outward expression, if not in its stories. I can almost smell the > > > incense from here! ( meant respectfully). > > > > >> > > > > >> With cheeks together, on a chair, > > > > >> > > > > >> Mike > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > > > >> > > > > >> From: Joe <desert_woodworker@>; > > > > >> To: <[email protected] > > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>>; > > > > >> Subject: [Zen] Re: What is Enlightenment? > > > > >> Sent: Sun, May 19, 2013 5:26:17 AM > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> JMJM, > > > > >> > > > > >> Well done. Well expressed. Be well. Please take good care. > > > > >> > > > > >> Hands together, and with bow, > > > > >> > > > > >> --Joe > > > > >> > > > > >> > <chan.jmjm@> wrote: > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Everything we truly seek belongs to heart, i.e. peace, happiness, > > > > >> > etc. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Enhance the sensitivity of our heart. Accept all as is. Surpass > > > the realm of desire, form and formlessness. Sync with the universal > > > wisdom through our heart is the key to enlightenment. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > with palms together, > > > > >> > jm > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
