Re: [Zen] Re: What is Enlightenment?

[覺妙精明 （JMJM）]

Hi Edgar,

Yes, I only said half way.  What I described earlier will take a person 
to the level of Arahant, like Hinayana practice, which is to ferry oneself.

After one awakens from his heart, then he needs to practice Six 
Perfections.  Begin with giving, not formed giving, but formless 
giving.  Giving of wisdom.  This begins the Bodhisattva practice, or big 
vehicle to ferry more sentient beings, as in Mahayana practice.

Wisdom is the nature of ALL forms and formlessness.

For your reference,
JM


On 5/19/2013 9:52 AM, Edgar Owen wrote:

JM,


This is correct but JM expresses only the first part.

Initially realization involves stopping thinking. (As in sitting 
Buddha Nature is directly realized)

But after that realization is brought BACK into thinking and thinking 
is realized as part of Buddha Nature.

If that were not true Realized masters would be unable to think 
without losing their realization.

And Realized masters clearly DO THINK without losing their realization....

Therefore thinking becomes part of realization.....

Realization is the realization of everything without exception 
including thinking.....

Realization is the realization of the true nature of ALL things.

Realization is not just making the world of things and thoughts go away...


Edgar







On May 19, 2013, at 12:11 PM, Juemiao Jingming wrote:


Hi Bill,

As I said, your definition of zen, is also part of Chan. Not 
different, just incomplete.

If we go back to the origin, Chan is "Not cast in words. Transmit 
beyond teaching."

In other words, Chan does not involve with any concept or logic. Chan 
is pure transmission, meaning synchronization.

All practices are part of Chan. Just different routes, some more direct.

The key is not trying to understand it, but to feel and sense it.  
Begins by completely drop our logic.

For your reference.
Jm

On May 19, 2013 7:06 AM, "Bill!" <billsm...@hhs1963.org 
<mailto:billsm...@hhs1963.org>> wrote:

    JMJM,

    I've never insisted that zen and Chan are different. I've only
    pointed out that some of your descriptions of Chan are different
    from what I know as zen.

    I don't think there are any fundamental difference, but then
    again I don't know for sure. Like I said below zen is not
    everything. It is a practice. There are human activities that are
    not part of that practice.

    If that's different for Chan then they are different.

    ...Bill!

    --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
    <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, 覺妙精明 （JMJM）
    <chan.jmjm@...> wrote:
    >
    > Hi Bill,
    >
    > You always insisted that there are differences in zen, Zen,
    Chan. I can
    > accept all of that, because all of that is inclusive in Chan.
    They are
    > all description of the same one fundamental thing, the
    universal life
    > force and wisdom and all of its manifestations.
    >
    > JM
    >
    >
    > On 5/19/2013 6:52 AM, Bill! wrote:
    > >
    > > JMJM and Edgar,
    > >
    > > I don't know about Chan, but zen is a human practice that
    assists in
    > > balancing the interplay between Human Nature and Buddha
    Nature. I went
    > > on to describe it in more detail in a recent post.
    > >
    > > It is not everything. It is a practice. There are human
    activities
    > > that are not part of that practice.
    > >
    > > ...Bill!
    > >
    > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
    <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>
    <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com
    <mailto:Zen_Forum%2540yahoogroups.com>>,
    > > Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote:
    > > >
    > > > JMJM,
    > > >
    > > > That's my understanding too. That's how I use the word
    though I
    > > usually refer to it as Zen.
    > > >
    > > > It's not something confined to any sect, temple or teacher
    though it
    > > may be recognized and taught therein.
    > > >
    > > > Chan or Zen is just a name for the fundamental reality of
    the world.
    > > But the name is not the reality, it just references the
    reality...
    > > >
    > > > Edgar
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > On May 19, 2013, at 9:08 AM, 覺妙精明
    （JMJM） wrote:
    > > >
    > > > > Hi Mike,
    > > > >
    > > > > Chan is the absolute and most fundamental dharma. Chan is
    the
    > > essence of all and everything.
    > > > > Chan can be expressed with any kind of word or no word at
    all.
    > > > >
    > > > > JM
    > > > >
    > > > > On 5/19/2013 1:00 AM, uerusuboyo@ wrote:
    > > > >>
    > > > >> Would it be fair to say that Cha'n still retains more of
    its
    > > original Indian Mahayana flavour than Japanese Zen? At least
    in it's
    > > outward expression, if not in its stories. I can almost smell
    the
    > > incense from here! ( meant respectfully).
    > > > >>
    > > > >> With cheeks together, on a chair,
    > > > >>
    > > > >> Mike
    > > > >>
    > > > >>
    > > > >> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
    > > > >>
    > > > >> From: Joe <desert_woodworker@>;
    > > > >> To: <Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
    <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>
    > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com
    <mailto:Zen_Forum%2540yahoogroups.com>>>;
    > > > >> Subject: [Zen] Re: What is Enlightenment?
    > > > >> Sent: Sun, May 19, 2013 5:26:17 AM
    > > > >>
    > > > >>
    > > > >> JMJM,
    > > > >>
    > > > >> Well done. Well expressed. Be well. Please take good care.
    > > > >>
    > > > >> Hands together, and with bow,
    > > > >>
    > > > >> --Joe
    > > > >>
    > > > >> > <chan.jmjm@> wrote:
    > > > >> >
    > > > >> > Everything we truly seek belongs to heart, i.e. peace,
    happiness,
    > > > >> > etc.
    > > > >> >
    > > > >> > Enhance the sensitivity of our heart. Accept all as
    is. Surpass
    > > the realm of desire, form and formlessness. Sync with the
    universal
    > > wisdom through our heart is the key to enlightenment.
    > > > >> >
    > > > >> > with palms together,
    > > > >> > jm
    > > > >>
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > >
    > >
    > >
    >