Bill, Experience without understanding is experience of illusion experienced AS illusion. Experience WITH understanding is the experience of illusion experienced as REALITY!
Edgar On May 23, 2013, at 4:45 AM, Bill! wrote: > Merle, > > This 'unable to grasp' is indeed the crux of the disagreement between Edgar > and me - that and some less important semantic issues. > > For me 'to grasp' means 'to understand'. Understanding is an intellectual > process, and yes it is also my opinion that Edgar puts a good deal of > emphasis on understanding even in what he would call Zen. > > I emphasize just 'experience' which does not imply understanding. For example > IMO you can experience Buddha Nature but can never understand it. > > ...Bill! > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@...> wrote: > > > >  bill.. > > what a beautiful poem hui neng has crafted.. > > i see the site also has information..that i have investigated..t > > he bottom line to zen.. > > is that enlightenment that cannot be grasped with any "tools" please > > correct me if i am  incorrect > > has edgar been aware that is the way of zen? > > maybe his harping of the intellect and rational thought might just be able > > to rest and he finally will be free of all that huffing and puffing and > > mind bending  acrobatics > >  merle > >  > > Merle, > > > > I don't think you can 'over polish' in the way I meant to use it. I meant > > it to mean wipe away all traces of self and attachment. That is zen > > practice. When that's been fully achieved there is nothing left to which > > attachments can anchor and nothing left to polish. I assume that's 'full > > enlightenment'. > > > > This is similar to the well known zen story about Hui Neng, the 6th > > Patriarch > > > > "One day the Fifth Patriarch told his monks to express their wisdom in a > > poem. Whoever had true realization of his original nature (Buddha Nature) > > would be ordained the Sixth Patriarch. The head monk, Shen Hsiu, was the > > most learned, and wrote the following: > > > > The body is the wisdom-tree, > > The mind is a bright mirror in a stand; > > Take care to wipe it all the time, > > And allow no dust to cling. > > > > The poem was praised, but The Fifth Patriarch knew that Shen Hsiu had not > > yet found his original nature, on the other hand, Hui Neng couldn't even > > write, so someone had to write down his poem, which read: > > > > Fundamentally no wisdom-tree exists, > > Nor the stand of a mirror bright. > > Since all is empty from the beginning, > > Where can the dust alight? > > > > The Fifth Patriarch pretended that he wasn't impressed with this poem > > either, but in the middle of the night he summoned Hui Neng. The Fifth > > Patriarch gave him the insignia of his office, the Patriarch's robe and > > bowl (source). Hui Neng was told to leave for the South and to hide his > > enlightenment and understanding until the proper time arrives for him to > > propagate the Dharma." > > > > - Source: http://sped2work.tripod.com/huineng.html > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >  bill... thank you for your good advice > > > > > > can one "over polish".? > > > > > > i spy  with my little eye.... over polishing may lead to certain > > > arrogance .. > > > > > > merle > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > Merle, > > > > > > I agree with Mike. Additionally a teacher can make first guide you to a > > > realization and sure you're not deceiving yourself along the way. I don't > > > know how many times I thought I had the 'answer' to Mu and went into the > > > dokusan room (private interview with the teacher) full of confidence only > > > to be unceremoniously rung out (the teacher rings a little bell notifying > > > you that the dokusan is over). > > > > > > But like Mike says when I finally 'got it' there was really no need for > > > validation, just a profound feeling of gratitude and need to thank my > > > teacher for sticking with me and guiding me while I floundered around. > > > > > > And then there of course is the start of the polishing, the real start of > > > your zen practice. > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@ wrote: > > > > > > > > Merle,<br/><br/>You'll know because you won't have to ask anyone if > > > > you've awakened. Of course, a teacher can gauge the depth of awakening > > > > and what will help you deepen it. But just like you don't need someone > > > > to tell you if that McDonalds coffee is hot - with the same certainty > > > > you'll know your perception of the world has changed.<br/><br/>Just as > > > > reality is experienced moment to moment, so is enlightenment. Our > > > > conditioning and beliefs etc. go deep and even though our initial > > > > awakening might have blown much of the dust from our eyes, some of that > > > > conditioning still remains. It's very much a work in progress! The > > > > biggest mistake to be made would be to believe that the first glimpse > > > > of our true nature is *it* and no further practice is necessary (you > > > > can see here that some people still cling to their cherished beliefs of > > > > what enlightenment is). Before awakening 'letting go' is a struggle. > > > > After awakening you simply realise there is nothing to let go > > > > of.<br/><br/>Mike<br/><br/><br/>Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > > > > > > > > > >
