Bill, Total C..P! (censored in compliance with the new guidelines)...
The person who wrote the poem CLEARLY has plenty of purpose in life. Like writing the poem, like eating so he has the energy to write the poem, and like coming in out of the rain back home... We can disagree about which purposes are meaningful and useful or which are excessive, but there MUST be lots of purpose without which nothing could even survive to deny purpos... Grrrr, this is really frustrating and a big waste of time. Edgar On Jul 4, 2013, at 9:33 AM, Bill! wrote: > Edgar, > > FINALLY! A good really, really good question! It's so good I'll respond > line-by-line: > > > ...but everyone DOES have intentions and purposes. > > No, everyone does not. A Buddha does not. And becoming a Buddha (or more > correctly stated, 'realizing Buddha Nature') is what zen practice is all > about. > > Here is an example I gave recently of a Buddha who has no intentions or > purposes: > > "Too lazy to be ambitious, > I let the world take care of itself. > Ten days' worth of rice in my bag; > a bundle of twigs by the fireplace. > Why chatter about delusion and enlightenment? > Listening to the night rain on my roof, > I sit comfortably, with both legs stretched out." > - Ryokan > > >That's what real life is like in the REAL world of forms... > > Having intentions and purposes (and logic and judgments and classifications, > etc...) is what a delusive life is like in the pluralistic, delusive World of > Forms. But this is not real. All this is delusion. > > > Why, for God's sake, do you think there is something wrong with that or it > > isn't real? > > There's nothing wrong with that, unless you really believe (are attached to) > these delusions. They are not real because they are delusions. > > Zen practice first enables you to halt your intellect's creation of pluralism > and all the other delusions so you may experience reality (Buddha Nature). It > then helps you re-integrate your delusions without attachments by recognizing > them for what they are - delusions. > > This process is IMO the meaning of the zen aphorism "First there is a > mountain; then there is no mountain; then there is." > > ...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > > > Bill, > > > > True, but everyone DOES have intentions and purposes. That's what real life > > is like in the REAL world of forms... > > > > Why, for God's sake, do you think there is something wrong with that or it > > isn't real? > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > On Jul 4, 2013, at 8:26 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > Edgar, > > > > > > No, I don't think so. > > > > > > It's kind of like the discussion Merle and I were having about having a > > > map and being lost. Something is only 'useful' if you have an intention, > > > a purpose to fulfill, much like having destination. An example is a > > > hammer is useful for pounding in a nail, but its not useful for screwing > > > in a screw. > > > > > > If you have no intentions, no purpose - then 'useful' doesn't really have > > > much meaning. > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > Yes, that's what reality is! > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jul 4, 2013, at 6:59 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > > > Edgar, > > > > > > > > > > No, 'usefulness' only means something gives you the results you want. > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > > > > > Usefulness is a criterion that something IS real. Usefulness means > > > > > > it's in synch with the actual logic of the world of forms and thus > > > > > > IS accurately part of reality... > > > > > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jul 3, 2013, at 8:10 PM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > PBS, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Math, logic, reason like all delusions should come with the > > > > > > > caveat 'suitable for everyday use'. As a universal human language > > > > > > > to communicate our logical concepts it's very useful, but it > > > > > > > should never be mistaken for reality. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], <pandabananasock@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill!: > > > > > > > > You're gonna ignore the math? I thought you said you were > > > > > > > > looking for an impersonal language a couple posts ago... :D > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The thing about using math that way is that eventually it leads > > > > > > > > you back to the beginning. We use mathematics as an expression > > > > > > > > of the model, then we use the model as an expression of the > > > > > > > > math. Then we realize that both are models of each other and > > > > > > > > the same, and experience encompasses all -- no need for > > > > > > > > anything else. Rivers and mountains become rivers and mountains > > > > > > > > again! > > > > > > > > ~PeeBeeEss > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill! <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of > > > > > > > > Cause-and-Effect and Karma > > > > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > > > > Date: Wednesday, July 3, 2013, 8:56 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PBS (That's going to be my TLA (Three > > > > > > > > Letter Acronym) for Pandabananasock from now on)... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll ignore all the math but do agree that JUST IF there is > > > > > > > > such a think that could be called 'karma' it's not so much a > > > > > > > > moralistic cause-and-effect as it is an intrinsic quality of > > > > > > > > the act itself. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But, I'll continue to poo-poo all claims of karma. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], > > > > > > > > pandabananasock@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Most people think of "1+1=2" as procedural, that is, > > > > > > > > that there is 1, THEN we add 1 to it, THEN it becomes > > > > > > > > 2. They would regard "2=1+1" and "2=2" to be different > > > > > > > > equations, but they are not in the least bit > > > > > > > > different. The equal-sign is the present. > > > > > > > > > "1+1" is already 2! And the effect IS the > > > > > > > > cause. Your karmic punishment for doing something > > > > > > > > "bad" is you doing that "bad" thing. Your karmic > > > > > > > > reward for doing something "good" is you doing that "good" > > > > > > > > thing. Forget the come-back-to-bite-you BS! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 4:58 AM EDT Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have > > > > > > > > read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups > > > > > > > > Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
