And additionally are you really claiming that you don't experience beauty as a thing of the moment but only as something to make rules or reason about?
And PBS, was there some non-rhetorical point about mind moves? Other than the joke about mouths flapping? Do you also have some concept of monistic experience which excludes what may post hoc be called an appreciation for the richness the trip? Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jul 5, 2013 9:42 PM, "Chris Austin-Lane" <[email protected]> wrote: > So you are claiming that states of the brain and non thought are mutually > exclusive? > > Thanks, > --Chris > 301-270-6524 > On Jul 5, 2013 6:44 PM, "Bill!" <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Chris, >> >> "Non-thought" is no intellectual activity - no creating pluralism which >> is the foundation of delusion and attachment. Later you can reincorporate >> thought without attachment by realizing it as delusive. >> >> It doesn't mean all your bodily functions shut down. >> >> ...Bill! >> >> --- In [email protected], Chris Austin-Lane <chris@...> wrote: >> > >> > Non-thought is not no mental activity, sitting errect fully present in a >> > moment takes more lively brains/more energetic bodies than sleep. >> > >> > Or are you suggesting that skimming thru life without really inhabiting >> > each moment is the key? >> > >> > Or just falling prey to that Zen temptation of word play, since I wrote >> of >> > people "moved" by beauty? >> > >> > Thanks, >> > --Chris >> > 301-270-6524 >> > On Jul 5, 2013 10:53 AM, <pandabananasock@...> wrote: >> > >> > > >> > > Chris, >> > > >> > > Mind moves mind. >> > > >> > > Yours truely, >> > > Peebles >> > > >> > > You: "Over and over, I have >> > > heard some music without really paying attention, and tuen one time >> have >> > > really listened to it, and been deeply moved." >> > > ------------------------------ >> > > On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 12:31 PM EDT Chris Austin-Lane wrote: >> > > >> > > >Are you kidding? Your intellect is where your sense of beauty come >> from? >> > > >That could not be further away from my experience. Over and over, I >> have >> > > >heard some music without really paying attention, and tuen one time >> have >> > > >really listened to it, and been deeply moved. Really also I find >> > > >listening/seeing/tasting/touching/smelling/introspecting in general >> > > rewards >> > > >attentive attending ;) with a suuden pleasurable deepening >> appreciation >> > > for >> > > >how things are, for the specific thing at hand a routine occurance. >> > > > >> > > >For beauty, there is a saying, when nothing is special, then >> everything >> > > >can be special. But our brain will be responding to beauty in any >> case. >> > > >Spontaneously. Not because of intellectual something, but our full >> > > >response to life clearly seen. >> > > > >> > > >Thanks, >> > > >--Chris >> > > >301-270-6524 >> > > > On Jul 5, 2013 2:35 AM, "Bill!" <BillSmart@...> wrote: >> > > > >> > > >> Merle, >> > > >> >> > > >> My intellect judged them to be beautiful. That judgement was >> probably >> > > >> something I learned to mimic from hearing other people describe >> things >> > > as >> > > >> beautiful. >> > > >> >> > > >> ...Bill! >> > > >> >> > > >> --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> >> > > wrote: >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > Â >> > > >> > Â bill..how do you know they were beautiful? clarification >> > > please..merle >> > > >> > >> > > >> > I have indeed perceived many beautiful sunsets. >> > > >> > >> > > >> > But have also experienced Just THIS! >> > > >> > >> > > >> > ...Bill! >> > > >> > >> > > >> > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> >> > > wrote: >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > ÂÂ >> > > >> > > ÂÂ bill..is that so?...is that what you have realised or >> have been >> > > >> told to believe think and feel?.. have you never seen a beautiful >> > > sunset >> > > >> ?...merle >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > ÂÂ >> > > >> > > Merle, >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > Math is judged to be beautiful because it is logical. Yes. >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > Logic is judged to be beautiful because it deceives us into >> > > thinking >> > > >> we understand the truth. >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > Truth is not beautiful or not-beautiful. Truth just is. >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > All judgments come from your delusive intellect and self. If >> you >> > > are >> > > >> looking for 'realization' [Buddha Nature?] then you'll have to >> let go >> > > your >> > > >> attachments to such things as self, intellect, truth and beauty. >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > ...Bill! >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@ >> > >> > > wrote: >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > mathematics is beautiful because it is logical >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ logic is beautiful because it is so >> pointing to the >> > > truth >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > truth is so beautiful because it points and parts the way >> for >> > > >> realisation to take place .. >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > merle >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ >> > > >> > > > Edgar, >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > Reality is not bound by logic. I'd buy your statement if >> you said >> > > >> 'math words because it accurately models our logically-based >> > > perception of >> > > >> reality', but I suppose that wouldn't work for you. >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > ...Bill! >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> >> wrote: >> > > >> > > > > >> > > >> > > > > Bill, >> > > >> > > > > >> > > >> > > > > No, no, no. Human math works because it DOES accurately >> model >> > > the >> > > >> actual logic of reality. >> > > >> > > > > >> > > >> > > > > Edgar >> > > >> > > > > >> > > >> > > > > >> > > >> > > > > >> > > >> > > > > On Jul 3, 2013, at 8:55 PM, Bill! wrote: >> > > >> > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > Chris, >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > Mathematics doesn't reveal reality. Mathematics only >> mirrors >> > > the >> > > >> human intellect. >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > ...Bill! >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > --- In [email protected], Chris Austin-Lane >> <chris@> >> > > >> wrote: >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > The thing I like about math as a source of analogies >> for >> > > zen >> > > >> is that it >> > > >> > > > > > > shows how two different things csn br exactly the >> same. >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > Linear equations over reals are lines. Lines are >> linear >> > > >> equations. >> > > >> > > > > > > Numbers, points, the constituents drop away as the >> eternal >> > > >> unity is seen. >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > Thanks, >> > > >> > > > > > > --Chris >> > > >> > > > > > > 301-270-6524 >> > > >> > > > > > > On Jul 3, 2013 8:12 AM, <pandabananasock@> wrote: >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > Bill!: >> > > >> > > > > > > > You're gonna ignore the math? I thought you said >> you were >> > > >> looking for an >> > > >> > > > > > > > impersonal language a couple posts ago... :D >> > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > The thing about using math that way is that >> eventually it >> > > >> leads you back >> > > >> > > > > > > > to the beginning. We use mathematics as an >> expression of >> > > the >> > > >> model, then >> > > >> > > > > > > > we use the model as an expression of the math. Then >> we >> > > >> realize that both >> > > >> > > > > > > > are models of each other and the same, and >> experience >> > > >> encompasses all -- no >> > > >> > > > > > > > need for anything else. Rivers and mountains become >> > > rivers >> > > >> and mountains >> > > >> > > > > > > > again! >> > > >> > > > > > > > ~PeeBeeEss >> > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------- >> > > >> > > > > > > > On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill! <BillSmart@> wrote: >> > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of >> > > >> Cause-and-Effect and >> > > >> > > > > > > > Karma >> > > >> > > > > > > > To: [email protected] >> > > >> > > > > > > > Date: Wednesday, July 3, 2013, 8:56 AM >> > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > PBS (That's going to be my TLA (Three >> > > >> > > > > > > > Letter Acronym) for Pandabananasock from now on)... >> > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > I'll ignore all the math but do agree that JUST IF >> there >> > > is >> > > >> > > > > > > > such a think that could be called 'karma' it's not >> so >> > > much a >> > > >> > > > > > > > moralistic cause-and-effect as it is an intrinsic >> > > quality of >> > > >> > > > > > > > the act itself. >> > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > But, I'll continue to poo-poo all claims of karma. >> > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > ...Bill! >> > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], >> > > >> > > > > > > > pandabananasock@ wrote: >> > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > Most people think of "1+1=2" as procedural, that >> is, >> > > >> > > > > > > > that there is 1, THEN we add 1 to it, THEN it >> becomes >> > > >> > > > > > > > 2. They would regard "2=1+1" and "2=2" to be >> different >> > > >> > > > > > > > equations, but they are not in the least bit >> > > >> > > > > > > > different. The equal-sign is the present. >> > > >> > > > > > > > > "1+1" is already 2! And the effect IS the >> > > >> > > > > > > > cause. Your karmic punishment for doing something >> > > >> > > > > > > > "bad" is you doing that "bad" thing. Your karmic >> > > >> > > > > > > > reward for doing something "good" is you doing that >> > > "good" >> > > >> > > > > > > > thing. Forget the come-back-to-bite-you BS! >> > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ >> > > >> > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 4:58 AM EDT Bill! wrote: >> > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > >...Bill! >> > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ >> > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you >> recently >> > > have >> > > >> > > > > > > > read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! >> Groups >> > > >> > > > > > > > Links >> > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > [email protected] >> > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ >> > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you >> recently >> > > have >> > > >> read or are >> > > >> > > > > > > > reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links >> > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> ------------------------------------ >> > > >> >> > > >> Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read >> or >> > > are >> > > >> reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> > > >> > > ------------------------------------ >> > > >> > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or >> are >> > > reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------ >> >> Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are >> reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >>
