Chris, To respond to the part of your post below I assume is directed to me...
I don't EXPERIENCE 'beauty' or 'ugly' or 'red' or 'pleasing' or 'rocks', etc...; I PERCEIVE these. Perception is a function of what I call my intellect - the origin of plurality. If it would sound better I could break up 'intellect' into 'logic' and 'emotion', or I could say there are two things: intellect (logic) and emotion (maybe call this 'heart'?). Whether they are all one thing or two things they are what make up Human Nature. ...Bill! --- In [email protected], Chris Austin-Lane <chris@...> wrote: > > And additionally are you really claiming that you don't experience beauty > as a thing of the moment but only as something to make rules or reason > about? > > And PBS, was there some non-rhetorical point about mind moves? Other than > the joke about mouths flapping? Do you also have some concept of monistic > experience which excludes what may post hoc be called an appreciation for > the richness the trip? > > Thanks, > --Chris > 301-270-6524 > On Jul 5, 2013 9:42 PM, "Chris Austin-Lane" <chris@...> wrote: > > > So you are claiming that states of the brain and non thought are mutually > > exclusive? > > > > Thanks, > > --Chris > > 301-270-6524 > > On Jul 5, 2013 6:44 PM, "Bill!" <BillSmart@...> wrote: > > > >> Chris, > >> > >> "Non-thought" is no intellectual activity - no creating pluralism which > >> is the foundation of delusion and attachment. Later you can reincorporate > >> thought without attachment by realizing it as delusive. > >> > >> It doesn't mean all your bodily functions shut down. > >> > >> ...Bill! > >> > >> --- In [email protected], Chris Austin-Lane <chris@> wrote: > >> > > >> > Non-thought is not no mental activity, sitting errect fully present in a > >> > moment takes more lively brains/more energetic bodies than sleep. > >> > > >> > Or are you suggesting that skimming thru life without really inhabiting > >> > each moment is the key? > >> > > >> > Or just falling prey to that Zen temptation of word play, since I wrote > >> of > >> > people "moved" by beauty? > >> > > >> > Thanks, > >> > --Chris > >> > 301-270-6524 > >> > On Jul 5, 2013 10:53 AM, <pandabananasock@> wrote: > >> > > >> > > > >> > > Chris, > >> > > > >> > > Mind moves mind. > >> > > > >> > > Yours truely, > >> > > Peebles > >> > > > >> > > You: "Over and over, I have > >> > > heard some music without really paying attention, and tuen one time > >> have > >> > > really listened to it, and been deeply moved." > >> > > ------------------------------ > >> > > On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 12:31 PM EDT Chris Austin-Lane wrote: > >> > > > >> > > >Are you kidding? Your intellect is where your sense of beauty come > >> from? > >> > > >That could not be further away from my experience. Over and over, I > >> have > >> > > >heard some music without really paying attention, and tuen one time > >> have > >> > > >really listened to it, and been deeply moved. Really also I find > >> > > >listening/seeing/tasting/touching/smelling/introspecting in general > >> > > rewards > >> > > >attentive attending ;) with a suuden pleasurable deepening > >> appreciation > >> > > for > >> > > >how things are, for the specific thing at hand a routine occurance. > >> > > > > >> > > >For beauty, there is a saying, when nothing is special, then > >> everything > >> > > >can be special. But our brain will be responding to beauty in any > >> case. > >> > > >Spontaneously. Not because of intellectual something, but our full > >> > > >response to life clearly seen. > >> > > > > >> > > >Thanks, > >> > > >--Chris > >> > > >301-270-6524 > >> > > > On Jul 5, 2013 2:35 AM, "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: > >> > > > > >> > > >> Merle, > >> > > >> > >> > > >> My intellect judged them to be beautiful. That judgement was > >> probably > >> > > >> something I learned to mimic from hearing other people describe > >> things > >> > > as > >> > > >> beautiful. > >> > > >> > >> > > >> ...Bill! > >> > > >> > >> > > >> --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> > >> > > wrote: > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Ãâ > >> > > >> > Ãâ bill..how do you know they were beautiful? clarification > >> > > please..merle > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > I have indeed perceived many beautiful sunsets. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > But have also experienced Just THIS! > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > ...Bill! > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> > >> > > wrote: > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâ > >> > > >> > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâ bill..is that so?...is that what you have > >> > > realised or > >> have been > >> > > >> told to believe think and feel?.. have you never seen a beautiful > >> > > sunset > >> > > >> ?...merle > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâ > >> > > >> > > Merle, > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > Math is judged to be beautiful because it is logical. Yes. > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > Logic is judged to be beautiful because it deceives us into > >> > > thinking > >> > > >> we understand the truth. > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > Truth is not beautiful or not-beautiful. Truth just is. > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > All judgments come from your delusive intellect and self. If > >> you > >> > > are > >> > > >> looking for 'realization' [Buddha Nature?] then you'll have to > >> let go > >> > > your > >> > > >> attachments to such things as self, intellect, truth and beauty. > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > ...Bill! > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@ > >> > > >> > > wrote: > >> > > >> > > > > >> > > >> > > > > >> > > >> > > > > >> > > >> > > > mathematics is beautiful because it is logical > >> > > >> > > > > >> > > >> > > > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâ logic is beautiful > >> > > because it is so > >> pointing to the > >> > > truth > >> > > >> > > > > >> > > >> > > > truth is so beautiful because it points and parts the way > >> for > >> > > >> realisation to take place .. > >> > > >> > > > > >> > > >> > > > merle > >> > > >> > > > > >> > > >> > > > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâ > >> > > >> > > > Edgar, > >> > > >> > > > > >> > > >> > > > Reality is not bound by logic. I'd buy your statement if > >> you said > >> > > >> 'math words because it accurately models our logically-based > >> > > perception of > >> > > >> reality', but I suppose that wouldn't work for you. > >> > > >> > > > > >> > > >> > > > ...Bill! > >> > > >> > > > > >> > > >> > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> > >> wrote: > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > Bill, > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > No, no, no. Human math works because it DOES accurately > >> model > >> > > the > >> > > >> actual logic of reality. > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > Edgar > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > On Jul 3, 2013, at 8:55 PM, Bill! wrote: > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > Chris, > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > Mathematics doesn't reveal reality. Mathematics only > >> mirrors > >> > > the > >> > > >> human intellect. > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > ...Bill! > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > --- In [email protected], Chris Austin-Lane > >> <chris@> > >> > > >> wrote: > >> > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > The thing I like about math as a source of analogies > >> for > >> > > zen > >> > > >> is that it > >> > > >> > > > > > > shows how two different things csn br exactly the > >> same. > >> > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > Linear equations over reals are lines. Lines are > >> linear > >> > > >> equations. > >> > > >> > > > > > > Numbers, points, the constituents drop away as the > >> eternal > >> > > >> unity is seen. > >> > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > Thanks, > >> > > >> > > > > > > --Chris > >> > > >> > > > > > > 301-270-6524 > >> > > >> > > > > > > On Jul 3, 2013 8:12 AM, <pandabananasock@> wrote: > >> > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > Bill!: > >> > > >> > > > > > > > You're gonna ignore the math? I thought you said > >> you were > >> > > >> looking for an > >> > > >> > > > > > > > impersonal language a couple posts ago... :D > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > The thing about using math that way is that > >> eventually it > >> > > >> leads you back > >> > > >> > > > > > > > to the beginning. We use mathematics as an > >> expression of > >> > > the > >> > > >> model, then > >> > > >> > > > > > > > we use the model as an expression of the math. Then > >> we > >> > > >> realize that both > >> > > >> > > > > > > > are models of each other and the same, and > >> experience > >> > > >> encompasses all -- no > >> > > >> > > > > > > > need for anything else. Rivers and mountains become > >> > > rivers > >> > > >> and mountains > >> > > >> > > > > > > > again! > >> > > >> > > > > > > > ~PeeBeeEss > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------- > >> > > >> > > > > > > > On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill! <BillSmart@> wrote: > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of > >> > > >> Cause-and-Effect and > >> > > >> > > > > > > > Karma > >> > > >> > > > > > > > To: [email protected] > >> > > >> > > > > > > > Date: Wednesday, July 3, 2013, 8:56 AM > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > PBS (That's going to be my TLA (Three > >> > > >> > > > > > > > Letter Acronym) for Pandabananasock from now on)... > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > I'll ignore all the math but do agree that JUST IF > >> there > >> > > is > >> > > >> > > > > > > > such a think that could be called 'karma' it's not > >> so > >> > > much a > >> > > >> > > > > > > > moralistic cause-and-effect as it is an intrinsic > >> > > quality of > >> > > >> > > > > > > > the act itself. > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > But, I'll continue to poo-poo all claims of karma. > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > ...Bill! > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], > >> > > >> > > > > > > > pandabananasock@ wrote: > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > Most people think of "1+1=2" as procedural, that > >> is, > >> > > >> > > > > > > > that there is 1, THEN we add 1 to it, THEN it > >> becomes > >> > > >> > > > > > > > 2. They would regard "2=1+1" and "2=2" to be > >> different > >> > > >> > > > > > > > equations, but they are not in the least bit > >> > > >> > > > > > > > different. The equal-sign is the present. > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > "1+1" is already 2! And the effect IS the > >> > > >> > > > > > > > cause. Your karmic punishment for doing something > >> > > >> > > > > > > > "bad" is you doing that "bad" thing. Your karmic > >> > > >> > > > > > > > reward for doing something "good" is you doing that > >> > > "good" > >> > > >> > > > > > > > thing. Forget the come-back-to-bite-you BS! > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 4:58 AM EDT Bill! wrote: > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > >...Bill! > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you > >> recently > >> > > have > >> > > >> > > > > > > > read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! > >> Groups > >> > > >> > > > > > > > Links > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > [email protected] > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you > >> recently > >> > > have > >> > > >> read or are > >> > > >> > > > > > > > reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> ------------------------------------ > >> > > >> > >> > > >> Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read > >> or > >> > > are > >> > > >> reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > ------------------------------------ > >> > > > >> > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or > >> are > >> > > reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------------ > >> > >> Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are > >> reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
