Re: [Zen] Finding a mirror...

[Kathleen Knight]

I am not able to tell you what is the heart of Zen.  I have a sense of it, for myself, but I cannot claim it as true for all, and could never begin to put it into words anyway.  As for meditation, I didn't mean to say that meditation was closer to original face, but that it was a raft that could bring us closer to original face.  The things you said about it bringing illumination and a different view, are, to me, the way it brings me closer.  If you have found something that works better, please do share it.  As for a coma, or death, I have not explored those things.  I think you were being a wiseacre, but I believe it was a legitimate question.  Perhaps those things do bring us closer.  Of course, we would have no consciousness (at least in the case of death) to appreciate it.  I'm in no hurry to find out. Kathleen ----- Original Message ----- From: Rod Scholl To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 4:00 PM Subject: RE: [Zen] Finding a mirror... Kathleen wrote: "Wow.  Do you really mean it when you say you don't think meditation brings you any closer to your original face than porn?!  I must not be familiar with the right porn sites.  I guess I don't see the distinction between seeing the path, and seeing its inevitability," ------   Kathleen,   Meditation is not "closer" to enlightenment.  I think it often helps to see things differently to understand the nature of reality.  Or perhaps at least understand what ISN'T the nature of reality.  If meditation is closer to original face, how would a coma do for you?  Or further still, death?  Are you even closer now?  Meditation does illuminate the path for me, but it doesn't bring me any closer to anything ('cept maybe sleep :).   I have to agree that the inevitability is something you have not experienced.  Nor me.  In fact, that is the point of my question, of how it can be Shown to me.  That is the funny thing about inevitability -- it isn't experienced since the character of any experience is "caused" and thus everything on the surface seems evitable (if that's a word).   My question is one of many ways of saying, What is the heart of zen?    "Three pounds of Flax".... is one answer (silence, yet another).   See how this feels like induction, though?  No wonder spontaneity has to be practiced, it is a lifetime proof via exhasution of cases... over and over seeing spontaneity, inevitability in each moment.  I have shown to myself that at least something is inevitable (I think therfore I am) and the universe is uncaused.     However, there are things in the world that are caused by another caused by yet another.  The system is consistent, if not closed.  Is practice caused or uncaused?  Avoidable, or inevitable?    Again, How can I show myself that it is "inevitable" that I practice enlightenment for all sentient beings (and thus practice to improve my practice), and I therefore never had an oppurtunity to choose or not choose this path. Rod Scholl     -----Original Message----- From: Kathleen Knight [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 2:46 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Zen] Finding a mirror... Wow.  Do you really mean it when you say you don't think meditation brings you any closer to your original face than porn?!  I must not be familiar with the right porn sites.  I guess I don't see the distinction between seeing the path, and seeing its inevitability, if indeed its inevitability is a truth for you.  My own study and practice of Zen is only two years old, and that inevitability is not something I have experienced at this point.  The path is.  Perhaps it is my feeble mathematician's mind.  That's what I taught for 13 years.  Always hated induction, though.  It's bad enough in philosophy, but I always hoped (in vain) that math would have more substance.  Of course, that was before Zen... Kathleen ----- Original Message ----- From: Rod Scholl To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 2:29 PM Subject: RE: [Zen] Finding a mirror... Kathleen,   Yes, meditating is a way to see the path.  But I am asking to see the path's "inevitability."  I don't consider meditation to be any closer to my original face than surfin' porn.  Thus I don't see it as a "deeper level" than intellect, just informatively different.  Must one do an exhaustion of cases?  See it while meditating, while sleeping, while eating, while shoveling dung, to see its inevitability?  Can exhaustion of cases be upaya?   Often one takes the mathmatician's weak pill of "The result follows by Induction" -- and tries to keep it down.  But induction is difficult when one knows so many forms of form, it isn't only a pill to negate self-consciousness, but rather it is trying to swallow the whole universe.   Noble Eightfold Path: Right View, Right Intention, Right Speech, Right  Action, Right Effort, Right Mindfulness, Right Concentration, Right Livelihood Noble Eightfold Path: Right View, Right Intention, Right Speech, Right  Action, Right Effort, Right Mindfulness, Right Concentration, Right Livelihood Yahoo! 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