Great! Thanks for your help, Genry. I'll see if I come up with any additional questions, but for now I like that you've pointed out the difference between quietism and just sitting.
Alex --- Rev Genryu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Alex Bunard > To: [email protected] > Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 12:01 AM > Subject: Re: [Zen] The Platform Sutra of the Sixth > Patriarch of Zen > > > --- Genryu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > 3. "Since the scope of the mind is for great > objects, > we should not practice such trivial acts (as sitting > quietly with a blank mind)." > > Here, in quote #3, he is condemning the practice of > sitting quietly. Am I right in interpreting it that > was? Am I wrong? Did he mean something else by > uttering the above words? Was he trying to actually > praise quiet sitting? > > Sitting quietly with a blank mind and just sitting > are not the same thing. > > 4. "Learned Audience, to practice the 'Samadhi of > Specific Mode' is to make it a rule to be > straightforward on all occasions - no matter whether > we are walking, standing, sitting or reclining." > > Here, in quote #4, he is explaining how important a > particular, correct state of mind is, and how > unimportant the body posture actually is. You > disagree? > > Again, Hui Neng is not referring to any particular > state of mind. Samadhi is not a particular state of > mind. Nor is mind seperate from the body. The advice > here is the same as that of the Buddha when he > taught Bahiya. > > "Herein, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: 'In > the seen will be merely what is seen; in the heard > will be merely what is heard; in the sensed will be > merely what is sensed; in the cognised will be > merely what is cognised.' In this way you should > train yourself, Bahiya. > "When, Bahiya, in the seen is merely what is > seen... in the cognised is merely what is cognised, > then, Bahiya, you will not be 'with that' ; when, > Bahiya, you are not 'with that,' then, Bahiya, you > will not be 'in that'; when, Bahiya, you are not 'in > that,' then, Bahiya, you will be neither here nor > beyond nor in between the two. Just this is the end > of suffering." > 5. "People under delusion believe obstinately in > Dharmalaksana (things and form) and so they are > stubborn in having their own way of interpreting > the > 'Samadhi of Specific Mode', which they define as > 'sitting quietly and continuously without letting > any > idea arise in the mind'. Such an interpretation > would > rank us with inanimate objects, and is a stumbling > block to the right Path which must be kept open. > Should we free our mind from attachment to all > 'things', the Path becomes clear; otherwise, we > put > ourselves under restraint. If that interpretation > 'sitting quietly and continuously, etc.' be > correct, > why on one occasion was Sariputra reprimanded by > Vimalakirti for sitting quietly in the wood?" > > Here, in quote #5, Hui-neng is warning us against > being attached to any particular mode of practice, > and > especially against attaching to sitting quietly. > Even > Vimalakirti was against it (see the pointer to the > Vimalakirti's encounter with a seated Sariputra). > Nothing to do with being attached to any > particular mode of practice. Again Hui Neng's > concern is with those who mistake just sitting with > blank quietism, which it is not. > 7. This is what transpired during the interview > with > Chi Ch'end: "How does your teacher instruct his > disciples?" asked the Patriarch. "He tells us to > meditate on purity, to keep up the sitting > position > all the time and not to lie down," replied Chi > Ch'eng. > "To meditate on purity," said the Patriarch, "is > an > infirmity and not Dhyana. To restrict oneself to > the > sitting position all the time is unprofitable. > Listen > to my stanza: > > A living man sits and does not lie down (all the > time), While a dead man lies down and does not > sit. On > this physical body of ours Why should we impose > the > task of sitting?" > > Here, in quote #7, Hui-neng plainly explains how > sitting position is unprofitable. Why should we > impose > the task of sitting on this physical body of ours? > is > what the Patriarch is asking. Have you got a > legible > answer to this, venerable sir? > > Once more you demonstrate your ignorance of both > Hui Neng and the context of the Platform Sutra. Hui > Neng is referring to meditation on a theme of any > sort and to mistake any 'method' as being in itself > absolute and ignoring both the totality of practice > and it's context in our daily lives. He is not > saying that there should be no zazen. Practice is > not some special method or activity that takes place > outside of daily life but is inclusive of all we do > in daily life and just sitting is not concerned with > any theme, even purity. There is also just walking, > just eating, just seeing - practice emphasises the > just part, not the sitting part alone. Hui Neng is > not saying that we should never sit any more than he > is saying we should never lie down or never eat. > 8. "Dhyana experts in the capital," said Hsueh > Chien > (when interviewing the Patriarch), "unanimously > advise > people to meditate in the sitting position to > attain > Samadhi. They say that this is the only way to > realize > the Norm (Tao), and that it is impossible for > anyone > to obtain liberation without going through > meditation > exercises. May I know your way of teaching, Sir?" > "The > Norm is to be realized by the mind," replied the > Patriarch, "and does not depend on the sitting > position. The Diamond Sutra says that it is wrong > for > anyone to assert that the Tathagata comes or goes, > sits or reclines. Why? Because the Tathagata's > 'Dhyana > of Purity' implies neither coming from anywhere > nor > going to anywhere, neither becoming nor causing to > be. > All Dharmas are calm and empty, and such is the > Tathagata's 'Seat of Purity'. Strictly speaking, > there > is even no such thing as 'attainment'; why then > should > we bother ourselves about the sitting position?" > > Here, in quote #8, he again points to the fact how > attaching and obsessing about the sitting position > violates the basic principle of the Norm. > Realizing > the Norm does not depend on the sitting position, > is > plainly what the Sixth Patriarch is saying. > Nope, again he is pointing to the simple and clear > fact that just sitting is not done in order to > attain anything. There is nothing to get, nowhere to > go. Just sitting is how we realize this in our > lives. > 9. "Learned Audience, purify your minds and listen > to > me. He who wishes to attain the All-knowing > Knowledge > of a Buddha should know the 'Samadhi of Specific > Object' and the 'Samadhi of Specific Mode'. In all > circumstances we should free ourselves from > attachment > to objects, and our attitude towards them should > be > neutral and indifferent. Let neither success nor > failure, neither profit nor loss, worry us. Let us > be > calm and serene, modest and accommodating, simple > and > dispassionate. Such is the 'Samadhi of Specific > Object'. On all occasions, whether we are > standing, > walking, sitting or reclining, let us be > absolutely > straightforward. Then, remaining in our sanctuary, > and > without the least movement, we shall virtually be > in > the Kingdom of Pure Land. Such is the 'Samadhi of > Specific Mode'. "He who is complete with these two > forms of Samadhi may be likened to the ground with > seeds sown therein. Covered up in the mud, the > seeds > receive nourishment therefrom and grow until the > fruit > comes into bearing. "My preaching to you now may > be > likened to the seasonable rain which brings > moisture > to a vast area of land. The Buddha-nature within > you > may be likened to the seed which, being moistened > by > the rain, will grow rapidly. He who carries out my > instructions will certainly attain Bodhi. He who > follows my teaching will certainly attain the > superb > fruit (of Buddhahood)." > > Finally, in quote #9, he explains the specific, > correct states and attitudes. Clearly, this is the > only way to attain the 'superb fruit'. > > Now, venerable sir, it is up to you to explain to > us > how is the Sixth Patriarch wrong and how is your > teaching of 'just sitting' superior to his > teaching of > the correct state that does not attach to any > form, > including sitting? > > It is not 'my' teaching. It is the same teaching, > whether spoken of by Hui Neng, the Buddha or anyone > else. Just sitting is itself not attaching to any > form. > > And no, not > > all Buddhist Sutras apart from Hui Neng's are > the > > recorded sayings of the Buddha. See for example > - > > the Mountains And Rivers Sutra by Dogen. > > This is arbitrary. No Japanese master had ever > earned > the honor to be included in the classical Buddhist > cannon of sutras. > > Your exact words were "all other Buddhist Sutras", > not "the classical Buddhist canon of Sutras". > There's a big difference. And Hui Neng's Platform > Sutra is not in the classical Buddhist cannon of > Sutras either by the way, but it is a popular > Mahayana Sutra, as is Dogen's Mountains and Rivers > Sutra. > > > One book > > that might be usefully recommended when it comes > to > > clarifying your understanding of Chan/Zen > history > > and just sitting is 'The Art of Just Sitting: > > essential writings on the zen practice of > > shikentanza', Edited by John Daido Loori. > > Thanks for the pointer. > > You're welcome. I'd strongly suggest that you find > out at least a modicum about the history and context > of just sitting before attempting to comment on > works such as the Platform Sutra. Preferably under a > teacher qualified to teach just sitting. > > Genryu > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > ===== No karma was produced during the composition of this letter __________________________________ Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! 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