This distinction between silent illumination (the Chan term) and quietism is important. Actually I think the active samadhi, active natural mind of Huineng and Dogen are identical. Dogen's idea of buddha activity distinguishes his Zen from any quietism. We are buddha therefore we do because Buddha does. The great wind reaches everywhere that's why we fan (Practice) ourselves. Yet I think to be fair and honest with alex's objections has not soto zen fallen into a posture fetish? ie. a tendency to identify awakened activity with the external points of formal practice. needing to sit 2x as long as others because you use the half lotus? (In japanese training monastery) being told you can't practice zazen because of physical limitations? what happened to the universal religion? only the physically fit need apply? yes we can dismiss these tendencies as invalid but don't they arise from a not so hidden bias in the practice/teachings? Dare i say it? a certain japanese formalism. Compare this with either Chan style of Hongzhi or with a similar teaching in the tibetan tradition Dzogchen/mahamudra (both of which I've practiced) where the practice is "looser"--posture, etiquette, sitting rounds, etc as the emphasis is clearly on the state of Being not the physical form (after all za does mean to sit) nor is sitting exalted as THE practice. I say this not just to be questioning but because it is (at least for me) a real concern. perhaps this concern is behind alex's thoughts however much his position can be refuted by text based arguement? maybe it merits further reflection? Is there a tendency in the practice and by teachers and students to make zazen into a fetish at the expense of Unborn Buddha Mind?
--- In [email protected], Alex Bunard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Great! Thanks for your help, Genry. I'll see if I come > up with any additional questions, but for now I like > that you've pointed out the difference between > quietism and just sitting. > > Alex > > --- Rev Genryu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Alex Bunard > > To: [email protected] > > Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 12:01 AM > > Subject: Re: [Zen] The Platform Sutra of the Sixth > > Patriarch of Zen > > > > > > --- Genryu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > 3. "Since the scope of the mind is for great > > objects, > > we should not practice such trivial acts (as sitting > > quietly with a blank mind)." > > > > Here, in quote #3, he is condemning the practice of > > sitting quietly. Am I right in interpreting it that > > was? Am I wrong? Did he mean something else by > > uttering the above words? Was he trying to actually > > praise quiet sitting? > > > > Sitting quietly with a blank mind and just sitting > > are not the same thing. > > > > 4. "Learned Audience, to practice the 'Samadhi of > > Specific Mode' is to make it a rule to be > > straightforward on all occasions - no matter whether > > we are walking, standing, sitting or reclining." > > > > Here, in quote #4, he is explaining how important a > > particular, correct state of mind is, and how > > unimportant the body posture actually is. You > > disagree? > > > > Again, Hui Neng is not referring to any particular > > state of mind. Samadhi is not a particular state of > > mind. Nor is mind seperate from the body. The advice > > here is the same as that of the Buddha when he > > taught Bahiya. > > > > "Herein, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: 'In > > the seen will be merely what is seen; in the heard > > will be merely what is heard; in the sensed will be > > merely what is sensed; in the cognised will be > > merely what is cognised.' In this way you should > > train yourself, Bahiya. > > "When, Bahiya, in the seen is merely what is > > seen... in the cognised is merely what is cognised, > > then, Bahiya, you will not be 'with that' ; when, > > Bahiya, you are not 'with that,' then, Bahiya, you > > will not be 'in that'; when, Bahiya, you are not 'in > > that,' then, Bahiya, you will be neither here nor > > beyond nor in between the two. Just this is the end > > of suffering." > > 5. "People under delusion believe obstinately in > > Dharmalaksana (things and form) and so they are > > stubborn in having their own way of interpreting > > the > > 'Samadhi of Specific Mode', which they define as > > 'sitting quietly and continuously without letting > > any > > idea arise in the mind'. Such an interpretation > > would > > rank us with inanimate objects, and is a stumbling > > block to the right Path which must be kept open. > > Should we free our mind from attachment to all > > 'things', the Path becomes clear; otherwise, we > > put > > ourselves under restraint. If that interpretation > > 'sitting quietly and continuously, etc.' be > > correct, > > why on one occasion was Sariputra reprimanded by > > Vimalakirti for sitting quietly in the wood?" > > > > Here, in quote #5, Hui-neng is warning us against > > being attached to any particular mode of practice, > > and > > especially against attaching to sitting quietly. > > Even > > Vimalakirti was against it (see the pointer to the > > Vimalakirti's encounter with a seated Sariputra). > > Nothing to do with being attached to any > > particular mode of practice. Again Hui Neng's > > concern is with those who mistake just sitting with > > blank quietism, which it is not. > > 7. This is what transpired during the interview > > with > > Chi Ch'end: "How does your teacher instruct his > > disciples?" asked the Patriarch. "He tells us to > > meditate on purity, to keep up the sitting > > position > > all the time and not to lie down," replied Chi > > Ch'eng. > > "To meditate on purity," said the Patriarch, "is > > an > > infirmity and not Dhyana. To restrict oneself to > > the > > sitting position all the time is unprofitable. > > Listen > > to my stanza: > > > > A living man sits and does not lie down (all the > > time), While a dead man lies down and does not > > sit. On > > this physical body of ours Why should we impose > > the > > task of sitting?" > > > > Here, in quote #7, Hui-neng plainly explains how > > sitting position is unprofitable. Why should we > > impose > > the task of sitting on this physical body of ours? > > is > > what the Patriarch is asking. Have you got a > > legible > > answer to this, venerable sir? > > > > Once more you demonstrate your ignorance of both > > Hui Neng and the context of the Platform Sutra. Hui > > Neng is referring to meditation on a theme of any > > sort and to mistake any 'method' as being in itself > > absolute and ignoring both the totality of practice > > and it's context in our daily lives. He is not > > saying that there should be no zazen. Practice is > > not some special method or activity that takes place > > outside of daily life but is inclusive of all we do > > in daily life and just sitting is not concerned with > > any theme, even purity. There is also just walking, > > just eating, just seeing - practice emphasises the > > just part, not the sitting part alone. Hui Neng is > > not saying that we should never sit any more than he > > is saying we should never lie down or never eat. > > 8. "Dhyana experts in the capital," said Hsueh > > Chien > > (when interviewing the Patriarch), "unanimously > > advise > > people to meditate in the sitting position to > > attain > > Samadhi. They say that this is the only way to > > realize > > the Norm (Tao), and that it is impossible for > > anyone > > to obtain liberation without going through > > meditation > > exercises. May I know your way of teaching, Sir?" > > "The > > Norm is to be realized by the mind," replied the > > Patriarch, "and does not depend on the sitting > > position. The Diamond Sutra says that it is wrong > > for > > anyone to assert that the Tathagata comes or goes, > > sits or reclines. Why? Because the Tathagata's > > 'Dhyana > > of Purity' implies neither coming from anywhere > > nor > > going to anywhere, neither becoming nor causing to > > be. > > All Dharmas are calm and empty, and such is the > > Tathagata's 'Seat of Purity'. Strictly speaking, > > there > > is even no such thing as 'attainment'; why then > > should > > we bother ourselves about the sitting position?" > > > > Here, in quote #8, he again points to the fact how > > attaching and obsessing about the sitting position > > violates the basic principle of the Norm. > > Realizing > > the Norm does not depend on the sitting position, > > is > > plainly what the Sixth Patriarch is saying. > > Nope, again he is pointing to the simple and clear > > fact that just sitting is not done in order to > > attain anything. There is nothing to get, nowhere to > > go. Just sitting is how we realize this in our > > lives. > > 9. "Learned Audience, purify your minds and listen > > to > > me. He who wishes to attain the All-knowing > > Knowledge > > of a Buddha should know the 'Samadhi of Specific > > Object' and the 'Samadhi of Specific Mode'. In all > > circumstances we should free ourselves from > > attachment > > to objects, and our attitude towards them should > > be > > neutral and indifferent. Let neither success nor > > failure, neither profit nor loss, worry us. Let us > > be > > calm and serene, modest and accommodating, simple > > and > > dispassionate. Such is the 'Samadhi of Specific > > Object'. On all occasions, whether we are > > standing, > > walking, sitting or reclining, let us be > > absolutely > > straightforward. Then, remaining in our sanctuary, > > and > > without the least movement, we shall virtually be > > in > > the Kingdom of Pure Land. Such is the 'Samadhi of > > Specific Mode'. "He who is complete with these two > > forms of Samadhi may be likened to the ground with > > seeds sown therein. Covered up in the mud, the > > seeds > > receive nourishment therefrom and grow until the > > fruit > > comes into bearing. "My preaching to you now may > > be > > likened to the seasonable rain which brings > > moisture > > to a vast area of land. The Buddha-nature within > > you > > may be likened to the seed which, being moistened > > by > > the rain, will grow rapidly. He who carries out my > > instructions will certainly attain Bodhi. He who > > follows my teaching will certainly attain the > > superb > > fruit (of Buddhahood)." > > > > Finally, in quote #9, he explains the specific, > > correct states and attitudes. Clearly, this is the > > only way to attain the 'superb fruit'. > > > > Now, venerable sir, it is up to you to explain to > > us > > how is the Sixth Patriarch wrong and how is your > > teaching of 'just sitting' superior to his > > teaching of > > the correct state that does not attach to any > > form, > > including sitting? > > > > It is not 'my' teaching. It is the same teaching, > > whether spoken of by Hui Neng, the Buddha or anyone > > else. Just sitting is itself not attaching to any > > form. > > > And no, not > > > all Buddhist Sutras apart from Hui Neng's are > > the > > > recorded sayings of the Buddha. See for example > > - > > > the Mountains And Rivers Sutra by Dogen. > > > > This is arbitrary. No Japanese master had ever > > earned > > the honor to be included in the classical Buddhist > > cannon of sutras. > > > > Your exact words were "all other Buddhist Sutras", > > not "the classical Buddhist canon of Sutras". > > There's a big difference. And Hui Neng's Platform > > Sutra is not in the classical Buddhist cannon of > > Sutras either by the way, but it is a popular > > Mahayana Sutra, as is Dogen's Mountains and Rivers > > Sutra. > > > > > One book > > > that might be usefully recommended when it comes > > to > > > clarifying your understanding of Chan/Zen > > history > > > and just sitting is 'The Art of Just Sitting: > > > essential writings on the zen practice of > > > shikentanza', Edited by John Daido Loori. > > > > Thanks for the pointer. > > > > You're welcome. I'd strongly suggest that you find > > out at least a modicum about the history and context > > of just sitting before attempting to comment on > > works such as the Platform Sutra. Preferably under a > > teacher qualified to teach just sitting. > > > > Genryu > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > > removed] > > > > > > > ===== > No karma was produced during the composition of this letter > > > > > __________________________________ > Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! > Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web > http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> In low income neighborhoods, 84% do not own computers. At Network for Good, help bridge the Digital Divide! http://us.click.yahoo.com/hjtSRD/3MnJAA/i1hLAA/S27xlB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Noble Eightfold Path: Right View, Right Intention, Right Speech, Right Action, Right Effort, Right Mindfulness, Right Concentration, Right Livelihood Yahoo! 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