Edward, Thanks a lot for this excerpt. David Loy very eloquently says what I have very clumsily been trying to say about the role of thought in zen.
Gassho...Bill! >On Tuesday, December 20 Edward posted: > >Some think that zazen is the cessation of thinking and that >its "truth" is beyond words. Here is an excerpt from a recent >interveiw with David Loy that has a different view, one that he >supports with Dogen. What do you all think? >From "Lack and Liberation in Self and Society" >http://www.centerforsacredsciences.org/holos/davidloy.html > >TOM: And, just as this transformation can happen to the heart, you >write about a transformation in the mind as well. So, on the one >hand, a symbol can be used as a way of grasping onto some objective >truth, as a way to compensate for our sense of lack. On the other >hand, you write that a symbol or thought can be a way that the mind >consummates itself, that it can activate the mind. I wonder if you'd >elaborate on that, on how thought isn't necessarily always used to >grasp at things and to ground ourselves in the world. > >DAVID: Well, this relates to the way we understand spirituality and >meditation. For example, we often tend to understand meditation-in >Zen especially-as getting rid of thoughts. We think that if we can >just get rid of thought, then we can see the world as it is, >clearly, without any interference from conceptuality. We view >thinking as something negative that has to be eliminated in order to >realize the emptiness of the mind. But this reflects the delusion of >duality, rather than the solution to duality. As Dogen put it, the >point isn't to get rid of thought, but to liberate thought. Form is >emptiness, yet emptiness is also form, and our emptiness always >takes form. We don't realize our emptiness apart from form, we >realize it in form, as non-attached form. One of the very powerful >and creative ways that our emptiness takes form is as thought. The >point isn't to have some pure mind, untainted by thought, like a >blue, completely empty sky with no clouds. After a while that gets a >little boring! Rather, one should be able to engage or play with the >thought processes that arise in a creative, non-attached, >nondualistic way. To put it in another way, the idea isn't to get >rid of all language, it's to be free within language, so that one is >non-attached to any particular kind of conceptual system, realizing >that there are many possible ways of thinking and expressing >oneself. The freedom from conceptualizing that we seek does not >happen when we wipe away all thoughts; instead, it happens when >we're not clinging to, or stuck in, any particular thought system. >The kind of transformation we seek in our spiritual practices is a >mind that's flexible, supple. Not a mind that clings to the empty >blue sky. It's a mind that's able to dance with thoughts, to adapt >itself according to the situation, the needs of the situation. It's >not an empty mind which can't think. It's an ability to talk with >the kind of vocabulary or engage in the way that's going to be most >helpful in that situation. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/S27xlB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Current Book Discussion: Appreciate Your Life by Taizan Maezumi Roshi Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ZenForum/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
