I have to agree with excerpt. Soley from my persective, I have always felt that the highset ideal or goal in Zen/Buddhism, or possibly any "religion" is to achieve the ability to react to every single moment, second, minute, event, situation(whatever it may be), not with a blue-sky mind of dull-eyed non-attachment, but instead with compassion, wisdom, unconditional love, passion AND intelligence/common sense. From my own initial experience during zazen(s), I could never understand(or misunderstood) why we needed to eradicate all thought and become like the proverbial blank tape. If I wanted to do that, I could just go back to drinking all the time.
--- Edward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Some think that zazen is the cessation of thinking > and that > its "truth" is beyond words. Here is an excerpt from > a recent > interveiw with David Loy that has a different view, > one that he > supports with Dogen. What do you all think? > From "Lack and Liberation in Self and Society" > http://www.centerforsacredsciences.org/holos/davidloy.html > > TOM: And, just as this transformation can happen to > the heart, you > write about a transformation in the mind as well. > So, on the one > hand, a symbol can be used as a way of grasping onto > some objective > truth, as a way to compensate for our sense of lack. > On the other > hand, you write that a symbol or thought can be a > way that the mind > consummates itself, that it can activate the mind. I > wonder if you'd > elaborate on that, on how thought isn't necessarily > always used to > grasp at things and to ground ourselves in the > world. > > DAVID: Well, this relates to the way we understand > spirituality and > meditation. For example, we often tend to understand > meditation—in > Zen especially—as getting rid of thoughts. We think > that if we can > just get rid of thought, then we can see the world > as it is, > clearly, without any interference from > conceptuality. We view > thinking as something negative that has to be > eliminated in order to > realize the emptiness of the mind. But this reflects > the delusion of > duality, rather than the solution to duality. As > Dogen put it, the > point isn't to get rid of thought, but to liberate > thought. Form is > emptiness, yet emptiness is also form, and our > emptiness always > takes form. We don't realize our emptiness apart > from form, we > realize it in form, as non-attached form. One of the > very powerful > and creative ways that our emptiness takes form is > as thought. The > point isn't to have some pure mind, untainted by > thought, like a > blue, completely empty sky with no clouds. After a > while that gets a > little boring! Rather, one should be able to engage > or play with the > thought processes that arise in a creative, > non-attached, > nondualistic way. To put it in another way, the idea > isn't to get > rid of all language, it's to be free within > language, so that one is > non-attached to any particular kind of conceptual > system, realizing > that there are many possible ways of thinking and > expressing > oneself. The freedom from conceptualizing that we > seek does not > happen when we wipe away all thoughts; instead, it > happens when > we're not clinging to, or stuck in, any particular > thought system. > The kind of transformation we seek in our spiritual > practices is a > mind that's flexible, supple. Not a mind that clings > to the empty > blue sky. It's a mind that's able to dance with > thoughts, to adapt > itself according to the situation, the needs of the > situation. It's > not an empty mind which can't think. It's an ability > to talk with > the kind of vocabulary or engage in the way that's > going to be most > helpful in that situation. > > > > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/S27xlB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Current Book Discussion: Appreciate Your Life by Taizan Maezumi Roshi Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ZenForum/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
