Stephen Beecroft wrote:

> -Stephen-
> > Nowhere in here is found an explicit or implicit condemnation of
> > the US actions against Iraq.
> -Marc-
> > Something neither John nor I said, incidentally.
> Sure you did. You wrote, regarding your criticisms of US actions against
> Iraq:
>      "I myself have a difficult time seeing how people can still,
>      with all due respect, 'not get it' after hearing this talk.
>      He said 'as a CHURCH we should renounce war' and emphasized that
>      it would be the descendants of Ishmael and Jacob who would be
>      the peacemakers in the region.

Exactly. Nowhere there is the word "Iraq" to be found. Thank you for proving my

> John also wrote:
>      "I felt that [Elder Nelson's general conference address] should
>      throw a bucket of cold water on some of those saints who are in
>      favor of a war with Iraq. [...] I thought Elder Nelson's remarks
>      would put to rest the recent thread on war vs. peace with Iraq.
>      We'll see if anyone was listening.

Okay. I have a hard enough time keeping track of my own memory without worrying
about John's ;-) Can I plea-bargain?

> To which you replied:
>      I don't mean to belabour the point, but I'm sometimes amazed at
>      the things you and I agree on.
> If I've somehow mistaken your meaning, please clarify. Honestly, I'm not
> trying to mess up your words.

One doesn't have to agree with a word-for-word expression to be said to be in
agreement with one's statement. I think that's obvious, and not to see this is
nit-picking. This is a discussion, not predicate calculus. On another list we're
talking about the nature of prophecy, and I used this thread as an example of a
general authority prophesying (because that is, in effect, what Elder Nelson has
done), and *members* twisting either specific references (which are often meant
to be taken in a more general sense than is often supposed, imo) or coincidences
of timing, as meaning certain concrete things.

It's an easy trap to fall into. I am anti-militaristic and anti-imperialistic --
a position I call being anti-Assyrian, to borrow the typology that Parry, Ludlow,
Gileadi and others have used --  and have made no bones about it. Therefore I see
Elder Nelson's talk as supporting my point of view. I have to learn to be open to
what I am calling, not out of derision, but simply because I don't have another
word to use, the "hawks'" side. I could be wrong. So I've tried to make a
graceful exit out of the thread (less successfully, obviously, in Dan's case,
whose response was absolutely uncalled for, imo -- ladies and gentleman can learn
to agree to disagree without impugning one another's character; look at the
progress John and I have made in this regard over the past year or so as an

Why? Because I think I've contributed all I can on it --  I'm waiting for the
November Ensign to come out, and also the Church News' in between to see if
there's any further clarifications. Until then, I, as a person, decide to align
myself the way Hugh Nibley did when he wrote an anti-war letter to the editor of
the Provo Herald at the height of the Vietnam Era, in which he, too, urged the
Saints (but not speaking as a GA, of course) to renounce war
( .

Others have to make their own decision.

> Stephen
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Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

"The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and
falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark."
--Michelangelo Buonarroti

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authorís employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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