Yes I imagine that you can dispute almost anything.  This list is called
"Mormon Thinker" yet the most common reaction to anyone's statement or idea
is a simple recitation of someone else's quotation, so as to quash any
suggestion that might be offered.  That is not the hallmark of a "thinker."
You did not quite do that but if the list is true to form it will be coming
from someone. I am surprised that there is not more reaction alone the line
of; "that is a new idea to me could you explain" or "what about this concept
and how does it fit with your suggestion."  Instead the common reaction is
to give a short quote that, by inference, destroys the suggestion and makes
discussion a offense that just cannot be tolerated on such a pure list.

Or as I said the last time I was accused of being an apostate - that is a
SILLY notion.

This thread started with the idea that the definition of a miracle - to me -
is an action that resulted in faith.

The reaction?  Not a simple discussion or question, but a dismissal with the
idea that miracles ONLY follow faith.  Where in the world did that idea come
from, except as an acceptance of an incomplete thought as the final answer?
Because someone who is a GA says one thing it does not make it the last
word, or even the complete word.  It is a thought that teaches a principle,
but seldom teaches all there is to know or say of a principle.  We are
taught a little at a time, one principle upon another.  To he/she that
receives a little, more will be added until a full understanding is
acheived.  Section 93 talks about spheres of understanding where the
principles may differ in understanding and application.

Repentance follows faith.  Does that mean that once we have repented it is
no longer possible to have faith?  Baptism follows faith.  Does that mean
that our faith becomes static and does not grow after we first join with the
saints? As a matter of fact, everything follows faith.  See the fourth
article of faith that sets forth the FIRST, not the complete, principles of
the gospel.

Because faith precedes the miracle does that mean it can not also be
affected by the experience and follow the miracle as well?  Faith leads to
actions of all sorts, which in turn leads to a greater faith (or a loss of
faith depending upon the action) which leads to greater miracles which leads
to greater faith, and so on, and so on.  If miracles do not affect faith why
have them at all?  If the only ones that can receive are those with faith,
and the only ones who truly understand miracles are those with faith then
what is their purpose?  Certainly not to confirm faith, or to testify of
truth, for the truly faithful will not need such support.

To suggest that there is a level of maturity that we can achieve is
certainly true, but to suggest that we can achieve a full maturity of faith,
when the standard is that of God, makes the idea kinda hard to accept.  The
very best that can be accomplished while in the flesh, in my opinion, is so
much less than the ultimate standard, that it seems presumptuous to suggest
that we can reach a maturity in the faith, compared with the ultimate
standard, while burdened with the veil and in this life. Hence my sugestion
that we are all immature in our faith.  If you want to disagree - OK.
Suggest a alternative or tell why you disagree.  To simply say that you
COULD disagree is meaningless.  Tell us why and then we can have a

Sorry about the tirade.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Stacy Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 10:31 PM
Subject: Re: [ZION] Mars

> I might dispute that one can only have an "immature" faith in this life.
> perfect one, no, but mature is definitely possible for some.
> Stacy.
> At 11:10 AM 07/31/2003 -0800, you wrote:
> >George Cobabe wrote:
> >>If miracles do not aid in the further and ongoing development of an
> >>immature faith (and immature is the best that any of us can have in this
> >>life) then why do we use the term "faith promoting experiences?"
> >
> >Well, I personally don't use the term.  But if I were to do so, I would
> >use it to refer to "spiritual experiences" such as the famous "burning in
> >the bosom," and not miracles. --JWR
> >
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