Yea I know, MormonThinker is the other list. Whoops.
----- Original Message -----
From: "George Cobabe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2003 7:22 AM
Subject: Re: [ZION] Faith as a working principle (was MARS)
> Yes I imagine that you can dispute almost anything. This list is called
> "Mormon Thinker" yet the most common reaction to anyone's statement or
> is a simple recitation of someone else's quotation, so as to quash any
> suggestion that might be offered. That is not the hallmark of a
> You did not quite do that but if the list is true to form it will be
> from someone. I am surprised that there is not more reaction alone the
> of; "that is a new idea to me could you explain" or "what about this
> and how does it fit with your suggestion." Instead the common reaction is
> to give a short quote that, by inference, destroys the suggestion and
> discussion a offense that just cannot be tolerated on such a pure list.
> Or as I said the last time I was accused of being an apostate - that is a
> SILLY notion.
> This thread started with the idea that the definition of a miracle - to
> is an action that resulted in faith.
> The reaction? Not a simple discussion or question, but a dismissal with
> idea that miracles ONLY follow faith. Where in the world did that idea
> from, except as an acceptance of an incomplete thought as the final
> Because someone who is a GA says one thing it does not make it the last
> word, or even the complete word. It is a thought that teaches a
> but seldom teaches all there is to know or say of a principle. We are
> taught a little at a time, one principle upon another. To he/she that
> receives a little, more will be added until a full understanding is
> acheived. Section 93 talks about spheres of understanding where the
> principles may differ in understanding and application.
> Repentance follows faith. Does that mean that once we have repented it is
> no longer possible to have faith? Baptism follows faith. Does that mean
> that our faith becomes static and does not grow after we first join with
> saints? As a matter of fact, everything follows faith. See the fourth
> article of faith that sets forth the FIRST, not the complete, principles
> the gospel.
> Because faith precedes the miracle does that mean it can not also be
> affected by the experience and follow the miracle as well? Faith leads to
> actions of all sorts, which in turn leads to a greater faith (or a loss of
> faith depending upon the action) which leads to greater miracles which
> to greater faith, and so on, and so on. If miracles do not affect faith
> have them at all? If the only ones that can receive are those with faith,
> and the only ones who truly understand miracles are those with faith then
> what is their purpose? Certainly not to confirm faith, or to testify of
> truth, for the truly faithful will not need such support.
> To suggest that there is a level of maturity that we can achieve is
> certainly true, but to suggest that we can achieve a full maturity of
> when the standard is that of God, makes the idea kinda hard to accept.
> very best that can be accomplished while in the flesh, in my opinion, is
> much less than the ultimate standard, that it seems presumptuous to
> that we can reach a maturity in the faith, compared with the ultimate
> standard, while burdened with the veil and in this life. Hence my
> that we are all immature in our faith. If you want to disagree - OK.
> Suggest a alternative or tell why you disagree. To simply say that you
> COULD disagree is meaningless. Tell us why and then we can have a
> Sorry about the tirade.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Stacy Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 10:31 PM
> Subject: Re: [ZION] Mars
> > I might dispute that one can only have an "immature" faith in this life.
> > perfect one, no, but mature is definitely possible for some.
> > Stacy.
> > At 11:10 AM 07/31/2003 -0800, you wrote:
> > >George Cobabe wrote:
> > >>If miracles do not aid in the further and ongoing development of an
> > >>immature faith (and immature is the best that any of us can have in
> > >>life) then why do we use the term "faith promoting experiences?"
> > >
> > >Well, I personally don't use the term. But if I were to do so, I would
> > >use it to refer to "spiritual experiences" such as the famous "burning
> > >the bosom," and not miracles. --JWR
> > >
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