Yea I know, MormonThinker is the other list. Whoops. George
----- Original Message ----- From: "George Cobabe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2003 7:22 AM Subject: Re: [ZION] Faith as a working principle (was MARS) > Yes I imagine that you can dispute almost anything. This list is called > "Mormon Thinker" yet the most common reaction to anyone's statement or idea > is a simple recitation of someone else's quotation, so as to quash any > suggestion that might be offered. That is not the hallmark of a "thinker." > You did not quite do that but if the list is true to form it will be coming > from someone. I am surprised that there is not more reaction alone the line > of; "that is a new idea to me could you explain" or "what about this concept > and how does it fit with your suggestion." Instead the common reaction is > to give a short quote that, by inference, destroys the suggestion and makes > discussion a offense that just cannot be tolerated on such a pure list. > Nonsense. > > Or as I said the last time I was accused of being an apostate - that is a > SILLY notion. > > This thread started with the idea that the definition of a miracle - to me - > is an action that resulted in faith. > > The reaction? Not a simple discussion or question, but a dismissal with the > idea that miracles ONLY follow faith. Where in the world did that idea come > from, except as an acceptance of an incomplete thought as the final answer? > Because someone who is a GA says one thing it does not make it the last > word, or even the complete word. It is a thought that teaches a principle, > but seldom teaches all there is to know or say of a principle. We are > taught a little at a time, one principle upon another. To he/she that > receives a little, more will be added until a full understanding is > acheived. Section 93 talks about spheres of understanding where the > principles may differ in understanding and application. > > Repentance follows faith. Does that mean that once we have repented it is > no longer possible to have faith? Baptism follows faith. Does that mean > that our faith becomes static and does not grow after we first join with the > saints? As a matter of fact, everything follows faith. See the fourth > article of faith that sets forth the FIRST, not the complete, principles of > the gospel. > > Because faith precedes the miracle does that mean it can not also be > affected by the experience and follow the miracle as well? Faith leads to > actions of all sorts, which in turn leads to a greater faith (or a loss of > faith depending upon the action) which leads to greater miracles which leads > to greater faith, and so on, and so on. If miracles do not affect faith why > have them at all? If the only ones that can receive are those with faith, > and the only ones who truly understand miracles are those with faith then > what is their purpose? Certainly not to confirm faith, or to testify of > truth, for the truly faithful will not need such support. > > To suggest that there is a level of maturity that we can achieve is > certainly true, but to suggest that we can achieve a full maturity of faith, > when the standard is that of God, makes the idea kinda hard to accept. The > very best that can be accomplished while in the flesh, in my opinion, is so > much less than the ultimate standard, that it seems presumptuous to suggest > that we can reach a maturity in the faith, compared with the ultimate > standard, while burdened with the veil and in this life. Hence my sugestion > that we are all immature in our faith. If you want to disagree - OK. > Suggest a alternative or tell why you disagree. To simply say that you > COULD disagree is meaningless. Tell us why and then we can have a > discussion. > > Sorry about the tirade. > > George > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Stacy Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 10:31 PM > Subject: Re: [ZION] Mars > > > > I might dispute that one can only have an "immature" faith in this life. > A > > perfect one, no, but mature is definitely possible for some. > > > > Stacy. > > > > At 11:10 AM 07/31/2003 -0800, you wrote: > > > > >George Cobabe wrote: > > >>If miracles do not aid in the further and ongoing development of an > > >>immature faith (and immature is the best that any of us can have in this > > >>life) then why do we use the term "faith promoting experiences?" > > > > > >Well, I personally don't use the term. But if I were to do so, I would > > >use it to refer to "spiritual experiences" such as the famous "burning in > > >the bosom," and not miracles. --JWR > > > > > > >/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// > /// > > >/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > > >/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > > > >/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// > // > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >--- > > >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. > > >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > >Version: 6.0.501 / Virus Database: 299 - Release Date: 07/14/2003 > > > > > //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// > // > > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > > > //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// > / > > > > > > > > //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// / > > ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// --^---------------------------------------------------------------- This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. 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