Hermann Himmelbauer wrote:
Am Donnerstag, 27. März 2008 18:26 schrieb Kurt Zitze:
if you want to raise the userbase of zope, the first and most obvious thing
to do is, get a forum running! mailing lists are bu******* and completly
out of date. it is max cumbersome to login into your email account to do a
post and so on, i think i dont need to enumerate all the disadvantages of a
mailing list compared to a forum. i am even not aware of how to replay to a

Well, all I can say to this is: Please do not split up the userbase by opening some extra web forum. I personally dislike forums, they are often cumbersome to use, therefore I prefer mailing lists a lot.

I think the chances of this happening are virtually zero. :)

Although I don't like forums that much, it is true that newbies and specific users tend to use them. To satisfy both sides, I can think of a forum that has a gateway to this mailing list. If I remember it right, Plone has such a thing (perhaps it could be used somehow?). This forum would then also serve as a pretty looking archive, which is also a good thing.

So does Zope. See nabble.com and news.gmane.org.

and if you finaly have one, put it on the start site, not like this mailing
list that is so to say hidden!

It's true, that Zope3 and Zope3 support ist somehow hidden in the Zope website. But AFAIK a new Zope website is currently under development, which will probably solve all these issues.

Indeed. We should see some movement on this over the weekend.

everything in zope is not obvious, at least not to me. everything has to be
found out in hours of studying the sources! reading the books, using google
to find sources that arent linked nowhere. i stumbled over nabble, i
stumbled over nearly everythink i essentialy have to know!

Well, the learning curve is really steep, that's true. I personally also did have to study the sources quite often. Phillips book did help, but often only after a personal advice from himself or after studying the sources.

The real problem for me was that Zope 3 is all about a new software development concept, namely, the component design with interfaces / adapters / utilities etc. This is something that the Joe Average programmer is not used to, so he does not really know how to map his ideas to a componentized architecture. I don't know how to deal with this problem, perhaps a theoretical book about componentized software design could help; On the other hand newbies like to start right away and don't want to study a complicated design book beforehand.

I think this is the problem that Grok attempts to address.

Another issue is the ZMI. Most people, who begin Zope3, start out with Phillips book or similar documentation which uses and adapts the ZMI. However, many people sooner or later come to the conclusion that the ZMI can not be configured to their needs, things get very complicated and people are frustrated. Many people, such like me, then have a look at a ZMI-less design (e.g. z3.pagelet, z3c.form etc.), which works better for many projects.

Anyway, after approx. 1 year of Zope 3 development, I can say that going through these hassles and problems was definitely worth it. Moreover, I think, Zope 3 is very much "work in progress" and I'm expecting many things to come that will solve the issues above and make the entry step easier.

Zope 3 is also one of the most advanced and powerful development frameworks in existence - in any language. I miss the Component Architecture so much when I do Java. ;)


Author of `Professional Plone Development`, a book for developers who
want to work with Plone. See http://martinaspeli.net/plone-book

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