Anyway I think Colin has now clarified his position. To me, the key point is that he does not believe human-scientist-level intelligence can be achieved via any "digital computer plus robot body" apparatus.
This is a scientifically reasonable hypothesis, which has been made by Roger Penrose and others before. However, in my view it is incorrect to state that evidence for this hypothesis is provided by any results in contemporary cognitive science or neuroscience. I defy you to give me any neuroscience or cog sci result that cannot be clearly explained using computable physics. Also, it must be noted that, as Deutsch showed, any behavior that can be achieved using quantum systems, can be achieved using standard digital computers (though the digital computers may be slower). But perhaps Colin wants to push back against Deutsch's argument by questioning its assumptions? There are many things in neuroscience and cognitive science that are not well explained by **current** computation-based analyses, of course. But, notable is that weird-physics-based analyses **do not currently provide better explanations of these phenomena**. Colin notes that we do not have a good, detailed explanation of how scientific creativity emerges from computational processes. OK. I tried to give such an explanation in "From Complexity to Creativity", but of course whether my explanation is right, is subject to debate. However, I submit that the computational approach has given far BETTER, more detailed, more useful explanations of creativity than any weird-physics based approach, so far. Whether "philosophy of consciousness" requires us to assert that weird physics is required to implement machine consciousness, is a whole other question. However the arguments in this regard are certainly shaky, as the vast majority of (presumbly conscious) people who understand the relevant physics and have though through the issues, do not agree with the assertion.... Or maybe Colin is the only one of us who is conscious? ;-) ... and, the reason why we don't understand that consciousness is unachievable on digital computers is that we lack qualia and don't ourselves know what consciousness really is??? ;-)) ... In that case, he is wasting his time arguing with a bunch of zombies!!!!! -- Ben G On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 9:33 AM, Mike Tintner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: > > Trent> : If you disagree with my paraphrasing of your opinion Colin, please > >> feel free to rebut it *in plain english* so we can better figure out >> what the hell you're on about. >> >> > Well, I agree that Colin hasn't made clear what he stands for > [neo-]computationally. But perhaps he is doing us a service, in making clear > how neuroscientific opinion is changing? I must confess I didn't know re > integrative neuroscience. So there is something important to be explored > here - how much *is* science (and cog sci) changing its computational > paradigm? > > Basically, you guys are in general blinkering yourselves to the fact that > the brain clearly works *fundamentally differently* to any computer - in > major ways. > > Colin may not have succeeded in fully identifying or translating those > differences into any useful mechanical form [or not - I'm certainly > interested to hear more]. But sooner or later *someone* will. > > And it's a safe bet that cog. sci. which still largely underpins your > particular computational view of mind, will v. soon sweep the rug from under > your feet. If I were you, I'd explore more here. > > (The parallels between a vastly overleveraged financial, economic & > political world order suddenly collapsing and a similarly overleveraged (in > their claims) cog. sci and AGI also on the verge of collapse, should not > escape you). > > > > ------------------------------------------- > agi > Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now > RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ > Modify Your Subscription: > https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; > Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com > -- Ben Goertzel, PhD CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC Director of Research, SIAI [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Nothing will ever be attempted if all possible objections must be first overcome " - Dr Samuel Johnson ------------------------------------------- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244&id_secret=117534816-b15a34 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
