Thanks Martyn, I mean more predominant fundamental and less sustain, more percussive . Bacon is interesting here, By the way, I am leaving Italy to,London royal,college .,there is a meeting about mandolin this Saturday Any chance to,meet,you? Mimmo
> Il giorno 02 feb 2017, alle ore 11:53, Martyn Hodgson > <hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu> ha scritto: > > Dear Mimmo, > Thank you for your continuing efforts in manufacturing these strings. > I agree with much of what has been said: - especially with Martin > Shepherd about the unfortunate influence rose pluckers have had on > stringing often leading to high tensions of overwound strings in the > bass to avoid rattles. Much of this is caused by the large amplitude of > oscillation at the middle of a string when set in motion nearer the mid > point than close to the bridge. So playing close to the bridge not only > follows the practice of the post-sixteenth century 'Old Ones' but also > leads to real advantages. This manner of playing is, of course, also > linked to the still widespread 'thumb under' school promoted from the > 1970s onwards as the 'proper true' way to pluck the lute! > I also very much agree with your earlier observation that equal feel > does not mean equal tension - the early writers would surely not have > been reporting the outcome of scientific instrument measurements but of > how it felt under the fingers when plucking. In short the stiffness of > thicker strings of the same material can make them harder to set in > motion and thus mislead into thinking more force is being applied. > Incidentally, there can sometimes be confusion between elasticity and > stiffness: elasticity is basically the ability of a material to resume > its normal shape after being deformed (in this case stretched - a good > thing in this context); whereas stiffness is the force required to > deform (stretch ie displace) the string by an amount. Thus stiffness is > related to what happens before a string is released whereas elasticity > is what happens after. In this context elasticity is probably a good > thing; stiffness not so. > However my real purpose in writing is to ask precisely what you mean by > a 'darker' sound. Is it one with a more predominant fundemental note or > what? > regards and, please, keep up the good work > Martyn > __________________________________________________________________ > > From: Mimmo Peruffo <mperu...@aquilacorde.com> > To: Matthew Daillie <dail...@club-internet.fr>; Martin Shepherd > <mar...@luteshop.co.uk> > Cc: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Sent: Thursday, 2 February 2017, 10:01 > Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing > Mimmo again; > the Gualtier tbel hs a diffrent interpretation that those relate to > gauges > or gut ribbons. > I will do a article in matter in the next future. > I am going to believe that maybe is better to switch to another > elastomer > whose elasticity is less. I have have already done some tests and I > must > admit that I was in figth with me which put in the market. Tony Bailes > topld > me: pout the stiffer one because the osund is darker and they are far > less > stretchly. Equal feel versus equal tension: well said dear Martin. > there are > other few things to consider; however the lute setup must be done > scaled. > Ciao > mimmo > -----Messaggio originale----- > From: Martin Shepherd > Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 10:26 AM > To: Mimmo ; Matthew Daillie > Cc: [1]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing > Dear All, > If we're really interested in how lutes might have been strung > historically, I think it's important to take the historical evidence > (very little of it, I know) as a starting point, rather than the habits > of modern players using modern strings. > We have a lot of iconographic evidence (plus the evidence from > measuring > bridge holes) that bass strings were rather thin - so the conclusion > that they were more dense than a plain gut string seems pretty well > inescapable. > Having said that, the tensions which modern players expect may be too > high, for several reasons. One is that we are accustomed to wound > strings, which are very flexible and don't work at all well if they are > at too low a tension. A related problem is that modern players tend to > play much further from the bridge than their historical counterparts. > Another issue is that we have tended to assume roughly equal tension > across all the strings, so we have not experimented much with a > tapering > of tension as we go down into the bass. One interesting aspect of the > iconography is that strings get progressively thicker as they go down > into the bass, but not as much as one would expect if the tensions were > equal. To make this concrete, for a descent of an octave (maintaining > equal tension) the string should double in diameter, so the 6th course > on a 6c lute should be nearly twice the diameter of the 4th. > On the subject of string diameters, Mimmo estimates the thinnest string > which could have been made in the past as .42-.44mm. Single top strings > will need to be a higher tension than the individual strings of a > course, but even so it is more or less inevitable that the tension must > be tapered to some degree, otherwise bass strings (and tension) would > be > enormous. Mimmo has recently written that equal tension is different > from equal "feel", and I agree with his suggestion that (in order to > maintain equal feel) thinner strings should therefore be at a higher > tension than thicker ones. I have done this as a matter of instinct > for > many years - using a higher tension on the second course than on the > third, for example. As an aside, I note that most of us have tended to > use octaves at a lower tension than the fundamentals, but the string > table in the Gaultier book (discovered by Andreas Schlegel), and my > more > recent experiments, suggest perhaps a more equal tension. > As far as the characteristics of the strings is concerned, there are > some apparent contradictions in the historical evidence. Many > paintings > give the impression that the strings were very floppy (compared to > modern gut strings), with lengths of spare string dangling from the > pegbox. On the other hand, one of the tests for a good string > recommended by Dowland is "stiffness to the finger" (assessed before > putting the string on the lute by pressing the end of the string to see > how bendy it is). In terms of elasticity, Mace talks about a string > stretching "an inch or two" in the winding up - suggesting a string > much > more elastic than almost any modern string. > Then we come to another apparent contradiction on the area of modern > experiments. I have found the Savarez KF strings (made from PVDF, much > more dense then gut, so perhaps more like a "loaded" gut string as far > as density is concerned) work very well, in spite of being very stiff > and not very elastic. They also work well at lower tensions than other > types of string. They are usually pretty true, and that helps. The > implication seems to be that a string which is sufficiently dense (and > can therefore be thin) doesn't need to be very elastic in order to > work. I don't know how to reconcile this with the historical evidence, > but it occurs to me that there is a difference between elasticity > (stretchiness) and "sideways flexibility" or "floppy flexibility" > (which > it seems the old strings may have had). Think of the difference > between > an rubber band and a piece of household string - the cotton string is > very floppy but has very little elasticity. All things considered I > would definitely be interested to see Mimmo make a string with lower > elasticity. Trueness is paramount - if a string is even slightly false > the irregular pattern of vibration will make it rattle against the > frets > and it will never sound well even as an open string. > Just a few thoughts for you to chew on.... > Martin >> On 02/02/2017 07:20, Mimmo wrote: >> Well, I can add a few informations >> There are no production problems it shelf. I had an extruder broken > so I >> was obliged to wait the time to fix it. After that I finished the raw >> material. I received it a week ago. >> They has more amplitude in the vibration whose problem is mostly > because >> one should compensate the lack of tension when the strings are under >> tension. In practice they became thinner that any wound strings. In > short, >> if the equivalent gut by calculation is 145 I raccomand to install a > 150 >> instead. So under tension the final gauge will be the suitable one. >> Yes, there is no problem to switch to a more stiffer plastic blend. > The >> problem is that we lost a bit of brightness. Is it a good idea ? I do > not >> know, people has the wound strings sound in comparation. >> Take care >> Mimmo Peruffo >> >>> Il giorno 01 feb 2017, alle ore 23:34, Matthew Daillie >>> <[2]dail...@club-internet.fr> ha scritto: >>> >>> Of the main copper-wound strings available, the fullest sounding and >>> brightest are the Kürschner followed by the Savarez, then the > Aquila Ds >>> and lastly the Aquila DEs, which are pretty dull (and are no longer > being >>> made although several retailers still have quite large stocks > available). >>> >>> As far as I am concerned the jury is still out on the Aquila loaded >>> nylgut. Many of us have high hopes but there are production problems >>> (there has only been one batch so far and many diameters are > unavailable) >>> and some strings can have considerably sideways amplitude when > plucked >>> (even causing them to catch neighbouring strings!) as well as > intonation >>> issues (but that is also true of a lot of wound strings). >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Matthew >>> >>>> On 01/02/2017 22:25, David Rastall wrote: >>>> It seems I am back playing Baroque lute once again, after rather a > long >>>> hiatus. It's been long enough that I have forgotten some of the > points >>>> of conventional wisdom concerning stringing. I'm playing an 11c > lute >>>> currently strung with silver-wound basses and Pyramid nylon mids > and >>>> trebles. I'm not so much bothered by the sustain of the nylon > strings, >>>> but if you folks can refresh my memory: what is the best choice of >>>> basses to get a sustain which is not downright thunky or chunky, > but has >>>> shorter sustain than the silver-wounds? >>>> >>>> David R >>>> >>> >>> >>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>> [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > [4]https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > -- > > References > > 1. mailto:baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > 2. mailto:dail...@club-internet.fr > 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 4. https://www.avast.com/antivirus >
