--- Jeroen van Baardwijk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> At Stardate 20030620.0652, Jan Coffey wrote:
>
> >So....I asked if it was cool for me to post this question on the COOL list
>
> >version of Brin-l, and I got the ok so......
> >
> >JvB,
> >
> >In previous discussions you have had some gripes about Americans. I know
> >we (Americans) like to make fun of the Frech, but hay, the rest of Europe
> >was doing that for centuries, and we just now got over the whole
> >Statue-of-Liberty-gift thing and feel that we can join in. ;)
> >
> >No, seriously though, as an American I am concerned that in some parts of
> >the world, I am treated with reservation, fear, over done respect, or even
>
> >detested. So what is it? Why is it that the country which came to the rest
>
> >of the worlds rescue thrice in the last century is so feared and hated
> >this century? Is it becouse we are the big dog and others are jelous or is
>
> >their someting to this ant-Americanism? Wait, is it pride? Is it that we
> >are so smug and "we saved the world, we saved the world" or is it that we
> >are all such maveric John Wane types?
>
> I believe there are a number of factors at play here.
>
> First, the "coming to the world's rescue" part. True, the US did play a
> vital role in major conflicts in the last century. I'll take WW2 as an
> example. Really, people in Europe *were* grateful that the US helped
> liberate us from Nazi occupation. What we have a problem with is that the
> case is often presented as if the US liberated Europe singlehandedly,
> rather than as a member of an international coalition. Such an attitude
> comes across as very arrogant.
I'm sorry, but that is the way it is. If you remove the US from the equation
in WW2 then the Nazis would still have been in power, probably even today.
You can not say that about any other country but Germany.
Even the Russians did very little in the way of liberating Europe. And don't
forget the US was in every conflict in WW2 not just Europe, we were fighting
on every front.
Th Allis were under US command specificaly becouse we deployed a vast
majority of the units. Every major battle in WW2 was won by US forces, the
others simply came in behind to take up securing positions and guard the US
suply lines. True the UK had a good hand in many of the conflicts, but even
then they usualy were not front-liners. Ok, every European contry got a
beeting and were full on in every battle up to the US involvment. There were
many valiant europeans in the war even after that point. You guys may have
helped, but it still stands that we wone that war. There is no two ways about
it.
If you disagree then please provide the evidence that suggests otherwise.
The Austrailians saved our butts in Asia by teaching us how to fight in the
jungle. We will never forget that. You ask any US service man or woman about
the Ausies and you will get nothing but favorable comments. We have an
eternal gratitude to them.
Our boys gave their lives to liberate Europe. We didn't have to do that. We
could have taken Asia and left Euorpe to the Germans. The offer was certianly
there.
It supprises me what shabby historians, especialy war historians Europeans
seem to be.
>
> Second, the "big dog" part. The US, being the only remaining superpower,
> can pretty much do as it pleases in the world and appears to be happily
> taking advantage of that situation.
How do you mean? Give specifics. Cold War plots don't count that was after
all a war.
>Such behaviour is a recipe for
> resentment by the rest of the world. Basically, by doing whatever it wants
> and ignoring the wishes of the rest of the world,
Once again you have to give specifics, otherwise it is just retoric.
>the US is seen as the
> bully of the playground. Phrased differently: with great power comes great
> responsibility, but the US is often seen as interested only in the power
> and not the responsibility.
Where have we been lax in the area of responsibility. Really? give an
example.
> In that respect, the current US government has
> probably done more damage in the last three years than the combined
> previous US governments have done since WW2.
What damage? It may seem like it is a given to you, but as an American, I
have no idea what you are talking about. We are, once again, the leaning the
world, making a difference. We are given a new fight, a new burdon of
terorrism and we are willingly taking it. We could after all close up and let
others in the world deal with the terrorism themselves.
>The damage done in the last
> three years may very well take three *decades* to repair. That's the
> problem with a reputation: it takes little effort to ruin it, but huge
> amounts of effort to repair it.
We have a bad rep for....what?
> Third, individual behaviour. It's not just the current US government that
> generates a lot of resentment in others, some very vocal individual
> Americans do it as well.
>FREX
? "for example"???
>, when you discuss WW2 with a number of
> Americans, there will always be some among them who will make it sound as
> if the US singlehandedly liberated Europe rather than as member of a
> coalition, which comes across as awfully arrogant.
Sorry that is the way it happened. Yo umay not like it but them are the
facts. Prove me wrong. Which Norwegan devision was it that liberated Italy?
Who was the greate Spanish general? What paratrooping Sweeds faught the
Germans and French from behind enemy lines to allow the D-Day invasion to
take place? Name one. Every major battle, every major blood letting? Who was
there? What took place?
>Some will even expect
> Europe to be so grateful for it that we will forever support the US in
> whatever it does.
No greater than the respect we have for Ausies. And no, we don't expect
endless support. But you know, we do expect not to be resented. We put up the
most cash and personel in every major conflict, (Kosavo, etc.) but we never
get anything in return but resentment. Maybe we should just stop. If we are
not going to be appreciated, but we don't. And we just get more resentment
for that.
> Other behaviour includes endless praise of the US as "the
>
> greatest country in the world" (which can become quite annoying when you
> hear it often enough)
I am sure it does, but is it not true?
>and obnoxious behaviour by American tourists. Of
> course, when it comes to the "obnoxious tourist" problem, Americans *are*
> at a disadvantage: the US does have a high profile, and American accents
> are very easily recognised in a crowd.
Hay we here in the US are very tolerant of all differnt peoples who come here
ot visit or even to live. We accept them in all of their quirks and folkways.
In the US (except in a few unfortunate citties) we have a melting pot, not
multi-culturalism.
We are by and large supper tolerant. Let's look at an extreem.
With multi-culturalism it is the duty of the one not to offend anyone else.
You try and learn everything that is required to make sure you don't offend
others of differnt cultures.
With melting-pot it is the duty of the one not to be offended by anyone else.
You try and accept differences and assume first that it is the culture of the
other and the differences between theirs and yours that causes the behavior,
and not be offended.
So when others come here, they may be ofended and the shoked that no one
cares that they are offended. They may be double offended becouse everyone
seems to think that it is their probelm that they are offended.
When we go abroad we may never be offended, but we are also supprised when
others are. They don't seem to care that we are from a differnt place, they
don't seem to care that we have differnt ways. We wonder if they do not watch
our movies and wear our cloths and buy our toys and consume our pop culture,
then why are the offended? The moral of so many of our stories are not to be
offended by others due to culture, but that doesn't seem to matter to them, I
guess they just like the tech in the movie not the story. So we perhaps are
not so understanding becouse what is their to understand? And then the host
culture is even more offended becouse we don't understand ...or care. Then
they balme US for not being tolerent... Sheesh!
Remember, we don't get a lesson in other countries when we turn on our tvs we
don't know what to expect. we are use to certain norms. In the us a 5 star
hotel means you are taken care of, in evey other coutry (excluding canada and
Austrailia) 5 star means they actualy changed the sheets on the bed. Then we
get chaged 2 or even 3 times as much for the same stuff. For an american that
is someting to get bent out of shape about.
Besides have you ever been here? Try comeing to New York some time and watch
peoples interactions. It is no different than how Americans interact abroad.
Ok, then there are the less educated or poorer people who, unlike those of
other countryies , actualy save their whole life to go to visit France or
some other place. They have looked forward to it for all of their lives,
watching all the comercials on TV of people welcoming them to come and visit
their cities. And telling them how welcome they will be. Then when they
actualy get to go they get treated like crap. Well, such a person is likely
to feel ripped off. Not only is their money and vacation being ruined, but
the years of anticipation seem wasted.
> Okay, true, we're talking about small minorities here. I'm sure that most
> Americans realise that the US didn't singlehandedly liberate Europe,
No most americans know this to be true.
>and
> that most Americans don't expect Europe to forever be America's yes-man as
> payment for the liberation.
Absolutly. We don't expect anything, but some acknowledgement that the way it
was was actualy the way it was would be nice. It's annoying when you as a
people do sometihgin so selfless and sacrifice so much for another people and
then they wont even acknolege that you did it. It does anyoy us, but we don't
expect you to be "Yes-men" we just want you to stop claiming that we didn't
save you when you and we know that you did. We would also like you to stop
claiming that we want you to be yes-men, that get's reall anoying especialy
when it isn't true.
>I'm sure that most Americans will behave like
> decent folk when playing tourist abroad.
Decent folk for -Americans- yes.
>The problem is that, while it's a
> small minority that's making a nuisance of themselves, it's also very
> *vocal* minority. Given people's tendency to generalise, attitudes can then
>
> quickly shift from "jeez, what an arrogant guy" to "jeez, Americans are an
> arrogant bunch".
The fact is we are an arrogant bunch, but we are not inapropriatly arrogant.
We don't believe in lies about oursleves or some such malarky. We are open to
other cultures and in fact are made up of people from everywher in the world.
We are the world culture becouse of it. We are the culture you get when you
mix every other culture together. Hay, it's where the world is headed
eventualy, we know it, you know it, and if you don't like it well then tough
cuz there isn't anythign either of us can do about it.
What you don't get is that when we are arogant in this way it is a world
arogance not a US arogance. I'm proud to be an American, I'm proud to be
Irish, I'm proud to be Scotish, I am proud to be Lanape, Proud to be German,
proud to be Italian, proud to be Spanish, Proud to even be French, Proud to
be Slavic, Proud to be every thing that I am, and my kids will be proud to be
chinese, and proud to be Polonesian as well as all of the above. That means I
am proud to be American.
>That may be unjustified, but that *is* what happens.
> Calling people who criticise the US "anti-American" doesn't exactly help
> either; it only reinforces the negative attitude towards the US, because it
> gives the impression of intolerance.
Yes and calling a racist a racist doesn't help becouse it just makes then
feel that you are intoleranat of their beleifes.
Come on. Now that does sound arogant.
And we do recognize the difference between critisizm and "anti-americanism".
> I think that most people who are labeled "anti-American" are not
> anti-American at all; they merely provide healthy criticism.
Maybe you are somehwat correct, but this is usualy based on actions not
words.
>Likewise, most
>
> Americans are not self-righteous arrogant assholes;
Now you see there is where you are wrong. We are not assholes, but we are
self-rightous and arogant. It's our culture, you don't want to be intolerant
of our culture do you?
>it's only a small but
> very vocal minority (plus the US government) that's giving the US a bad
> name.
>
Ok food for thought. Lets see where this leads. It is an interesting conversation.
=====
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Jan William Coffey
_________________________________________________
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