People can interact with the world and find groundings for symbols using their senses. Some of their semantic bindings may be learned from works of fiction. Some of their bindings may be copied from other people that did the same. Other bindings may be from planting things in dirt or playing on a jungle gym. The people that learn things about using dirt in New Mexico may learn different things that people that use dirt in Washington. The more indirect the source of the bindings, the more suspicious it is. I wouldn't agree that all these bindings add value to the world. We are better off if the ones that carry demonstrably false claims are proportionately devalued.
-----Original Message----- From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> On Behalf Of glen Sent: Monday, October 9, 2023 9:23 AM To: friam@redfish.com Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Language Model Understanding OK, I agree, mostly. But "truth" is no more well-defined than any other specific grounding style. E.g. the insistence that there is truth in fiction. There is affective truth in MAGA, just like there's truth in whatever justification Hamas might give for its reaction to the bloodshed of the Israeli settlements. But such truths are so abstracted, they can be [a|mis]used at will and the narrative spin used to whip up the adherents provides any glue needed to make it seem as true as it needs to seem to spur the adherents to action. It's a bad analogy from, say, Hamas to shut up and calculate. But it can be made. It's fun watching intra-science tribe members pick at each other for their sloppiness in communicating science. E.g. Sabine's take on transitioning. Whatever. If a tribe polices itself, then their trustworthiness is much higher ... for me, at least. I'm glad the Republicans are in a civil war. It's evidence they may recover as a party. If people stop telling me I'm wrong, then I'm most likely very wrong. As long as I've still got people telling me I'm wrong, then I'm at least somewhere near not-wrong. On 10/9/23 08:24, Marcus Daniels wrote: > I mean there are some categories that are disjoint or mostly disjoint. > Similarly, the grounding is not total. I agree that value systems like MAGA > have power, but they don't have truth. There is no truth. All there is, is > power, which is my point. QM and demagoguery are both tools, with different > contexts for use. > >> On Oct 9, 2023, at 7:48 AM, glen <geprope...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Hm. Even with the caveat of "generally", I think this complementarity >> argument fails because all the various categories are not disjoint. And it's >> the (somewhat) lack(ing) of grounding/binding that allows the mixing of the >> modes. I'd tried to point this out by using "computation", the idea that >> human innovation might be more universal than microbial innovation. It's not >> really that the values *lack* grounding. It's that their grounding is >> complicated, perhaps iterative? maybe heterarchical? IDK, but certainly not >> lacking any grounding. >> >> An abstracted value system like that of the 09A OR MAGA cults may have >> *more* power, more chances to hook and unhook because it gives the donner >> and doffer of that value system more opportunities to do the donning and >> doffing at whatever arbitrary points they choose, to lazily benefit >> themselves without having to handle any unintended/unconsidered entailments. >> >>> On 10/8/23 18:18, Marcus Daniels wrote: >>> This doesn't make them more valuable because they lack grounding. >> >>> On 10/8/23 13:21, Marcus Daniels wrote: >>> Generally attaching to one value system means not attaching to another >>> value system. For example, adopting the value of tolerance logically is >>> at odds with policing intolerance, e.g., one Jewish neighbor remarked this >>> morning he drove past a home with a Hamas flag on it and was scared. >>> (Reducing that fear by removing the flag would be reducing tolerance.) >>> It seems to me that ideas that work have power and things that don’t work >>> don’t have power. -- glen -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriam to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriam to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
