> There where
> well establish trade routes from India to the middle east. There is some
> pretty convincing evidence that Christ traveled to India at that time, and
That "Gospel Vindaloo theory" doesn't hold lassi, I'm afraid.....
You couldn't have made my point any better. Most westernly trained
theorist's dismiss this in the same way.
> Lutes appear in the eastern Mediterranean long before >Christ, probably
>during the Hittite invasion.
And where does one find evidence for this? Graffiti on the bathroom
walls in ancient Mesopotamia?
> brought back with him the Buddhist traditions of a >monastatic order and
> compassion, which took hold centuries later in >Christendom.
>I do not recall the Redeemer advocating monasticism, >but Mathias will
surely
>clarify the issue
> I said it was established centuries after Christ. > I challenge
> anyone to find a monastatic order, anywhere in the world other than in
> Buddhist India 500 year before the appearance of Christ.
>Some argue that Essences were kind of monastic
They seem to be influenced in that direction, although not a tradition
is the sense of what we are familiar with in the west.
I guess Roman, you believe that all of a sudden everywhere throughout the
world people instantly came up with the idea of a monastic order. This is
the kind of thing a doctor would say to a patent when he can't figure out
the specific cause of a disease. A vague dismissal of reality.
the lute, a paired shaped round body instrument took place in the East.
>>> While the Greeks developed the lyre.
>>> Michael Thames
>> Not necessarily. Mediterranean basin had its own lutes very early, way
>> before there was any contact with the Far East.
>> RT
Most country's and well established cultures have a musical
instrument associated with it... US of A a steel string guitar, Middle
east , the Oud, India a sitar, Germany a 13 course lute, France an 11
course lute, Italy a 6 course lute, Spain a Spanish guitar, and through the
Gypsy's ( of Indian origins I might add) the Flamenco guitar. And let's see
what's left.... Oh yea, Greece, why don't you fill in the blank, I'll give
you a hint, It's not a lute.
Michael Thames
www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Dr. Marion Ceruti"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "LUTE-LIST" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>; "Jon Murphy"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2005 11:00 AM
Subject: Re: LUTE-etymology
> >> Not necessarily. Mediterranean basin had its own lutes >very early, way
> >> before there was any contact with the Far East.
> >> RT
> > I think we have to rethink this whole concept of one particular time and
> > place where East meets West. For instance. We are taught to believe that
> > during Christ's lifetime all these cultures had not mingled.
> Lutes appear in the eastern Mediterranean long before Christ, probably
> during the Hittite invasion.
>
> > There where
> > well establish trade routes from India to the middle east. There is
some
> > pretty convincing evidence that Christ traveled to India at that time,
and
> That "Gospel Vindaloo theory" doesn't hold lassi, I'm afraid.....
>
> > brought back with him the Buddhist traditions of a monastatic order and
> > compassion, which took hold centuries later in Christendom.
> I do not recall the Redeemer advocating monasticism, but Mathias will
surely
> clarify the issue.
>
>
> > I challenge
> > anyone to find a monastatic order, anywhere in the world other than in
> > Buddhist India 500 year before the appearance of Christ.
> Some argue that Essenes were kind of monastic....
>
>
> > The west has taken
> > this for granted and not traced this tradition back any further than
> > Constantine. Sorry to go off here, but it is just another example of
> > suppression of any other foreign influence on Religion, music, and the
arts,
> > to the point where we all believe like Baron that the lute came from the
> > Greeks.
> The point is that it probably was in Europe even before them Greeks.....
> Egypt and Asia Minor are have culturally more to do with Europe than India
> and beyond.
> RT
>
>
>
> >
> >
> >>> Indians, Persians (and Greeks) all belong to the Indo-European group
> >>> commonly known as Aryan. Their cradle is in southern
> >>> Siberia/Kazakhstan/eastern China. There are grounds for suspicion that
> > these
> >>> people might be responsible for spreading their proto-lutes in all
> > available
> >>> directions.
> >>> RT
> >>> Interesting , I've always wondered about who in fact the label Aryan
> >>> refers to.
> >>> As it is today, it had to be in the past, that these musical
inventions,
> >>> art and high culture, need patrons, and a well developed culture in
> > order
> >>> for art or music to flourish. It still seems to me that the
development
> > of
> >>> the lute, a paired shaped round body instrument took place in the
East.
> >>> While the Greeks developed the lyre.
> >>> Michael Thames
> >> Not necessarily. Mediterranean basin had its own lutes very early, way
> >> before there was any contact with the Far East.
> >> RT
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>> To: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Dr. Marion Ceruti"
> >>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "LUTE-LIST" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>; "Jon
> > Murphy"
> >>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>> Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 5:09 PM
> >>> Subject: Re: LUTE-etymology
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>> ++In Western music, the emphasis is on harmonic >development, but in
> >>>>>> Eastern music the emphasis is on melodic development
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Yes, but which came first? who influenced who? I'm not a
musicologist
> >>> but
> >>>>> reason would suggest that early Indian ragas set the stage for the
> > oud,
> >>>>> which in turn set the stage for early lute music.
> >>>>> By the time Alexander invaded India, India had a very well
established
> >>>>> musical culture and tradition. Perhaps it was Alexander's
retreating
> >>> army
> >>>>> that brought back the Indian modes to the Greeks!
> >>>>> Michael Thames
> >>>> Indians, Persians (and Greeks) all belong to the Indo-European group
> >>>> commonly known as Aryan. Their cradle is in southern
> >>>> Siberia/Kazakhstan/eastern China. There are grounds for suspicion
that
> >>> these
> >>>> people might be responsible for spreading their proto-lutes in all
> >>> available
> >>>> directions.
> >>>> RT
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> To get on or off this list see list information at
> >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
