I am a bit lost in this thread: I don't know if there is any evidence - let alone convincing - that Jesus travelled to India, but we do know that the Greeks went there a few centuries earlier (at the time of Aristotle) and even stayed quite a while, after the medical luminaries of the time failed to save Alexander's life. There would be nothing extraordinary in a cultural exchange of medical ideas between Greece and India, but it may be hard to decide who gave what to whom. The 4 Greek humors, associated with the 4 elements, don't seem to match the three listed below anyway. I am tempted to think that, while there is clear and documented evidence of Greek influence on Buddhist art and civilisation in Northern India, very little went the other way, not because the Indians were not civilised, but because the Greek army got cut off from its base and had no choice but to be completely assimilated in India over a couple of centuries. Besides, from the little I know about religion, it seems that monasticism in Europe was a very late development (6th or 7th century perhaps), with a definitely European rationale (i.e. barbarians of all kinds wreaking havoc in all unprotected areas) and mode of organization and hierarchy. In other words, it seems likely that European monasteries, at least in the West, owed more to the old Roman villas - with their persistent, active connection to Rome, than to India, Tibet, or China. From various pictorial and architectural evidence, it does not seem to me that the lute penetrated Europe much before the 13th century, and by that time it had already a long history in Arab countries. In fact, isn't it in the 13th century that exchanges of all kinds flourished between the Muslim and Christina worlds, via Spain, and the university in Salamanca? The period of a little more of a century before the Black Death, in my opinion, is the one that truly deserves to be called the Renaissance: strong population growth, deforestation on a huge scale, inventions like the mill, the glass lens, architectural breakthroughs, establishment of roads and international fairs, development of literature (Chrestien de Troyes and Dante), adoption of Arab science in astrology and algebra, and probably importation of the oud and the plague, thanks to increased contact with the East. Now, if someone could actually document the history of the oud, that would be interesting to me. Alain
Michael Thames wrote: >>There where >>well establish trade routes from India to the middle east. There is some >>pretty convincing evidence that Christ traveled to India >at that time, >> >> >and > > >>That "Gospel Vindaloo theory" doesn't hold lassi, I'm >afraid..... >> >> > > Roman, another puzzle for you to ponder in your dismissal of eastern >influence on the west. The Chinese and Indians have what is considered the >oldest system of medicine known to man. Actually it is considered to be of >Indian origin. It is based on the principles of the three humors ( heat, >cold and air) that affect the body. Ancient Greek medicine oddly enough uses >this same system, they even diagnosis disease by urine analysis. This urine >analysis is only practiced by Ancient Indian and Tibetan physicians, and not >by the Chinese. > This system of medicine has defined the Greek structure of western >medical theory. Spontaneous Combustion principle? I guess it's the only >way to explain that one off. >Michael Thames >www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Dr. Marion Ceruti" ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "LUTE-LIST" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>; "Jon Murphy" ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2005 11:00 AM >Subject: Re: LUTE-etymology > > > > >>>>Not necessarily. Mediterranean basin had its own lutes >very early, way >>>>before there was any contact with the Far East. >>>>RT >>>> >>>> >>>I think we have to rethink this whole concept of one particular time and >>>place where East meets West. For instance. We are taught to believe that >>>during Christ's lifetime all these cultures had not mingled. >>> >>> >>Lutes appear in the eastern Mediterranean long before Christ, probably >>during the Hittite invasion. >> >> >> >>>There where >>>well establish trade routes from India to the middle east. There is >>> >>> >some > > >>>pretty convincing evidence that Christ traveled to India at that time, >>> >>> >and > > >>That "Gospel Vindaloo theory" doesn't hold lassi, I'm afraid..... >> >> >> >>>brought back with him the Buddhist traditions of a monastatic order and >>>compassion, which took hold centuries later in Christendom. >>> >>> >>I do not recall the Redeemer advocating monasticism, but Mathias will >> >> >surely > > >>clarify the issue. >> >> >> >> >>>I challenge >>>anyone to find a monastatic order, anywhere in the world other than in >>>Buddhist India 500 year before the appearance of Christ. >>> >>> >>Some argue that Essenes were kind of monastic.... >> >> >> >> >>>The west has taken >>>this for granted and not traced this tradition back any further than >>>Constantine. Sorry to go off here, but it is just another example of >>>suppression of any other foreign influence on Religion, music, and the >>> >>> >arts, > > >>>to the point where we all believe like Baron that the lute came from the >>>Greeks. >>> >>> >>The point is that it probably was in Europe even before them Greeks..... >>Egypt and Asia Minor are have culturally more to do with Europe than India >>and beyond. >>RT >> >> >> >> >> >>> >>> >>>>>Indians, Persians (and Greeks) all belong to the Indo-European group >>>>>commonly known as Aryan. Their cradle is in southern >>>>>Siberia/Kazakhstan/eastern China. There are grounds for suspicion that >>>>> >>>>> >>>these >>> >>> >>>>>people might be responsible for spreading their proto-lutes in all >>>>> >>>>> >>>available >>> >>> >>>>>directions. >>>>>RT >>>>>Interesting , I've always wondered about who in fact the label Aryan >>>>>refers to. >>>>>As it is today, it had to be in the past, that these musical >>>>> >>>>> >inventions, > > >>>>>art and high culture, need patrons, and a well developed culture in >>>>> >>>>> >>>order >>> >>> >>>>>for art or music to flourish. It still seems to me that the >>>>> >>>>> >development > > >>>of >>> >>> >>>>>the lute, a paired shaped round body instrument took place in the >>>>> >>>>> >East. > > >>>>>While the Greeks developed the lyre. >>>>>Michael Thames >>>>> >>>>> >>>>Not necessarily. Mediterranean basin had its own lutes very early, way >>>>before there was any contact with the Far East. >>>>RT >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com >>>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>>From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>>>To: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Dr. Marion Ceruti" >>>>><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "LUTE-LIST" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>; "Jon >>>>> >>>>> >>>Murphy" >>> >>> >>>>><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>>>Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 5:09 PM >>>>>Subject: Re: LUTE-etymology >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>++In Western music, the emphasis is on harmonic >development, but in >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Eastern music the emphasis is on melodic development >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>Yes, but which came first? who influenced who? I'm not a >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >musicologist > > >>>>>but >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>reason would suggest that early Indian ragas set the stage for the >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>oud, >>> >>> >>>>>>>which in turn set the stage for early lute music. >>>>>>>By the time Alexander invaded India, India had a very well >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >established > > >>>>>>>musical culture and tradition. Perhaps it was Alexander's >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >retreating > > >>>>>army >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>that brought back the Indian modes to the Greeks! >>>>>>>Michael Thames >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>Indians, Persians (and Greeks) all belong to the Indo-European group >>>>>>commonly known as Aryan. Their cradle is in southern >>>>>>Siberia/Kazakhstan/eastern China. There are grounds for suspicion >>>>>> >>>>>> >that > > >>>>>these >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>people might be responsible for spreading their proto-lutes in all >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>available >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>directions. >>>>>>RT >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>To get on or off this list see list information at >>>>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > > > > >
