Short version : I won't discuss that anymore and I'll focused only on technical discussion on that mailing list. Sorry for the noise.
On 13 sept. 2010, at 16:47, Fritz Zaucker wrote: > Hi Jean-Baptiste, > > On Mon, 13 Sep 2010, Jean-Baptiste BRIAUD -- Novlog wrote: > >> Yes, why not for a longer perspective but at that time we needed quick and >> local help. We couldn't afford the extra cost of travel/hotel for the >> consultancy > > so that would mean you needed a company in or around Paris. Well, I guess > from a Parisienne perspective this is equivalent to "no paid QX consultant > in France" ... ;-) > I don't understand your point at all. How do you create a link between our very common will to have local help and the fact it would be like not paying the consultancy ? It is very common to have paid consultancy between local company, so no travel is involve. It is still paid consultancy. >> and didn't wanted to have remote help. > > Some people might even consider to be put up in somebodies house for an > interesting project ... Again, what are you trying to say ? I'm sorry but I don't understand. > >> There are also lots of other reasons why a local ecosystem is important : >> people get accustomed to qooxdoo, they heard of it before I talk about it, >> ... With existing ecosystem, qooxdoo become a choice, otherwise, people >> don't want to consider that option because they don't have that ecosystem >> for themselves. This is typical to start using a pump : you need water >> first to start the pump but you have bought the pump because you don't >> have water. Company here sometimes don't choose qooxdoo because there is >> no qooxdoo ecosystem and that's just increase the lack of qooxdoo >> ecosystem in France. Other apparent competitor already have that critical >> mass and that's why it is important for qooxdoo to have it out of >> Germany/Switzerland. I said "apparent" competitor because we all know why >> it is not true on a technical point of view but that's not the only point >> of view, unfortunately for Qooxdoo. >> >> Thank you for you reply. Unfortunately the lack of other reply on that >> ecosystem question show how it is not perceive as a problem and why it >> won't change quickly I'm afraid. So, how will qooxdoo get that critical >> mass outside Germany/Switzerland ? We already twit, comments on some blog >> like ajaxian, contribute, ... and still there are only 2 known companies >> in France (I hope there are a little more than we know). This big question >> for me is How can qooxdoo think it will compete to other "web framework" >> with lots of "acquired" companies ? By compete, I mean be known, become a >> possible choice. How could you choose something you just don't know it >> exists ? I know several really good products that just die to be the best >> on a technical point of view, maybe they thought only technical point of >> view counted, anyway, they are no more there to explain us their choice >> ... >> >> We don't have to loose momentum, this is as important as being the best >> technical tools. I'm not sure if all that kind of things are just "bad >> ideas" or if only few of us care about it or if I'm so unclear that nobody >> understand why so much noise for nothing or ... something else ? > > I think I do understand your point. Cool, so it make sense ... > On the other side, we were/are in the > same situation when Tobi "discovered" Qooxdoo and we just decided to go for > it (as you did). > So far we have more than enough projects that allow us to > use Qooxdoo (and make some contributions to it on the way, not the least > giving talks/tutorials at various conferences to spread the word). > This is cool. So what ? > I am NOT sure that everything would be better if Qooxdoo was being picked up > a lot faster. Everything ? Of course not and it was not my point ! It would "only" be, relatively speaking, better, this is still ... very important. > I think projects also can grow too fast (meaning not as > carefully designed/tested/etc). Growing too fast ? Are you serious ? That's not current qooxdoo problem ! You may have information I don't have, but according to me, qooxdoo is not growing fast enough. > >> ... and please, don't tell me I can use other product if I'm not satisfied. > > I didn't intend to. That sentence was not here for you but to ensure I won't get that kind of quick non-answer if any ... > >> This would be a way to escape the problem and BTW I am really globally >> satisfied, I would not care about a product I'm not satisfied with. > > Indeed. > >> This is because we plan to use qooxdoo on a long term perspective that I >> care so much. > > So do we and I think at the moment the best we can do is to implement great > applications with it and have the rumor spread by word of mouth. > > And perhaps to make things a bit faster, provided that there IS a market for > it (meaning some of the people requesting a lot also providing some > resources for it) and not just a lot of demand for "free beer ...". > What's wrong in using free software like in "free beer" ? With that kind of qooxdoo tax (for once it didn't came from France ... usually a tax champion) It sound like a so french left wings / right wings political debate apply to a technical framework : to get new features, do you need to create a tax or to rely entrepreneurship. You think a tax will speed up the realization of some ideas, I do not agree. People get involved and add things on open source project I know, but to get that, you need critical mass => goto the critical mass and ecosystem problem rather than thinking to a qooxdoo tax. How to get critical mass and allow more people use qoxdoo ? Make it simpler : qooxdoo build, better theme : already discussed over and over ... and over. In conclusion, I get really bored to discuss that. I don't want to offend, I'm just sharing my current mood. Big benefit : I won't annoy all of you with that kind of not purely technical things anymore. I'll use qooxdoo on a technical point of view and shut my mouth on all other aspect, I understood. There is enough to do : * use qooxdoo * help on the mailling list * comments on various blog to support qooxdoo * maintain our contrib. Sorry for the noise. > Cheers, > Fritz > >> On 13 sept. 2010, at 15:43, Fritz Zaucker wrote: >> >>> Hi Jean-Baptiste, >>> >>> On Fri, 10 Sep 2010, Jean-Baptiste BRIAUD -- Novlog wrote: >>> >>>> On 10 sept. 2010, at 04:55, Leandro Santiago wrote: >>>> >>>>> (IMHO) In this case, is essential to create an ecossystem around qooxdoo >>>> >>>> Yes, fully agree. In France, qooxdoo is mainly unknown. I was not able to >>>> get paid consultancy ! >>> >>> how about looking across the border? Many places in Switzerland are >>> closer to you than some places in France ... >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Fritz >>> >>> -- >>> Oetiker+Partner AG tel: +41 62 775 9903 (direct) >>> Fritz Zaucker +41 62 775 9900 (switch board) >>> Aarweg 15 +41 79 675 0630 (mobile) >>> CH-4600 Olten fax: +41 62 775 9905 >>> Schweiz web: www.oetiker.ch >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances >>> and start using them to simplify application deployment and >>> accelerate your shift to cloud computing >>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev >>> _______________________________________________ >>> qooxdoo-devel mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances >> and start using them to simplify application deployment and >> accelerate your shift to cloud computing >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev >> _______________________________________________ >> qooxdoo-devel mailing list >> [email protected] >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel >> >> > > -- > Oetiker+Partner AG tel: +41 62 775 9903 (direct) > Fritz Zaucker +41 62 775 9900 (switch board) > Aarweg 15 +41 79 675 0630 (mobile) > CH-4600 Olten fax: +41 62 775 9905 > Schweiz web: www.oetiker.ch > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances > and start using them to simplify application deployment and > accelerate your shift to cloud computing > http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev > _______________________________________________ > qooxdoo-devel mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev _______________________________________________ qooxdoo-devel mailing list [email protected] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel
