Re: [DX-CHAT] 7O6T

[Scott Manthe]

My QSOs showed up in LoTW today, too. I made a _very_ modest donation, 
so it looks like everyone who donated any amount via the OQRS system can 
expect their confirmations soon.


73,
Scott, N9AA

On 6/6/12 8:51 PM, JIM Abercrombie wrote:

Received LOTW confirmation today. Yes, I made a $25 donation via paypal.
Jim





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RE: [DX-CHAT] 7O6T

[Charlie Wooten NF4A]

H...made a $25 donation before the expedition started and no LOTW for
me.and another OQRS donation on top of that!

NF4A





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[DX-CHAT] Radio Club Leader board

[KE1F Lou]

We forgot to discuss the benefits of the Radio Club member's standing.

Or did we include that to with the comments?:-)

73  Lou  KE1F


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Re: [DX-CHAT] Leaderboards - and everything else.

[JIM Abercrombie]

 
This all I've heard for three days. I wish the subject to be changed. If you 
want to work them once, work them once. If you want to work them 25 times, then 
do it.
  - Original Message - 
  From: Zack Widup 
  To: dx-chat 
  Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2012 12:24 PM
  Subject: Re: [DX-CHAT] Leaderboards - and everything else.



  Yes, I'm sure small pileups would develop occasionally to work some station. 
But without DXCC, I doubt anyone would be risking their lives and spending a 
fortune to go to places like Peter I or South Sandwich Islands. And a QSO with 
someone in a European country would have equal weight with a QSO with someone 
in Yemen. 

  I'm sure there would be people who wanted to work as many countries as they 
could on all bands and modes. But I'm willing to bet the number would be much 
smaller.

  But that's not the way it is and I guess we just need to live with the 
existing situation. 

  73, Zack W9SZ



  On Wed, Jun 6, 2012 at 10:35 AM, Don Berger  wrote:




  Well, let me ask this question: What would the ham radio world be like
  if there were no DXCC or similar awards?



Arguably better in many ways. Among them, one could argue the ability to 
have prolonged and therefore interesting discussions with hams in other parts 
of the world would be enjoyable and equally as challenging as DX competition.

The lack of a DXCC certificate in no way limits or precludes the challenge 
of working countries, band-countries, zones, counties, etc... The existence of 
certificates fills a need only among those who are compelled to demonstrate 
their accomplishment(s) to others who presumably couldn't care less. The 
accomplishment remains equal regardless.

I won't enumerate problems like qrm, too-wide pileup spreads, a life 
outside ham radio, etc...

Just my take but for every person who lives and breathes dx, there are many 
more who find enjoyment without external considerations.

Don K1VSK 



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Re: [DX-CHAT] Leaderboards - good or bad?

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

DX Hogs will be DX Hogs no matter what.  The idea is that they should
not be *encouraged or rewarded* for acting like DX Hogs but publishing
a *Leader Board* as if such behavior made the operator a *champion*.

I like the idea of replacing the Leaderboard matrix with a flat table
that shows each band the DXpedition worked and each mode along a single
line.  Once a station has made QSOs on all 9 (or 10) bands and in all
three modes (CW, Phone, RTTY), their "count" stops increasing.  I'd
even go to the extent that once a station has been worked on all 9
bands and twice on each mode (11 slots) their "Leaderboard" standing
starts to DECREASE.

There is no major operating award that requires working a country on
every band *and* every mode.  To do so with a major DXPedition and in
doing so deny other worthy "competitors" the opportunity to work a
new band *or* a new mode is DX Hoggery.

The European RTTY pile-ups for 7O6T were slopping time on the hog farm
- there is no other way to put it.

73,

  ... Joe, W4TV


On 6/6/2012 1:02 PM, Victor Goncharsky US5WE wrote:


I was making such bands/modes tables filling them by hand long before
the computer era.
Still doing this for major DXpeditions and really surprised of the
public excitement of such a simple thing.
Will someone prohibit me to print this SSB/CW 160-10 form for the next
major operation?
NO.
Will someone prohibit me to work the above mentioned operation on the
bands I need?
Again NO.
So, what's this discussion is all about?

On Tue, 05 Jun 2012 21:28:32 -, Joe Subich, W4TV 
wrote:>



On 6/5/2012 4:39 PM, Ryan Jairam wrote:

I don't really buy that argument. In the last days of a DXpedition,
they're usually begging.


You obviously did not attempt to work 7O6T on RTTY. The Europeans
monopolized the few available RTTY band slots and even chased 7O6T
off RTTY many times in the last days of the DXpedition.

Quite simply, Leaderboards as currently structured encourage rampant
DX Hoggery and have no place in radiosport.

73,

... Joe, W4TV


On 6/5/2012 4:39 PM, Ryan Jairam wrote:






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RE: [DX-CHAT] Leaderboards - good or bad?

[Dave White]

 
Hi Victor
I think it's more about whether or not the *published presence* on a website of 
a 'leader board' encourages people to be more competitive (with all the bad 
behaviours that competitiveness brings out in some people) and therefore leads 
to bigger and nastier pileups as some folks have to beat the next guy no matter 
what.  

Personally I'm not sure that they do since a**holes behave true to type anyway.

Some people in this group have had Ham licences since Adam was a lad.  If you 
listen to some of them around here you'd think that their licence was 
personally signed by Queen Victoria.  I'm a relative newcomer only having been 
on the air for 22 years but in that time it feels like pileups have become 
bigger and more aggressive.  It feels like operating standards have fallen (cue 
reprise of code vs no-code debate) and the amount of deliberate QRM has 
increased - particularly in Europe.  Sometimes I'm really glad that there's 20 
miles of water between England and mainland Europe so that at least I can 
disown Europe.

How does the situation look from the other end of Europe?  Do you feel like the 
bands have become like a combination of Fraggle Rock and the Chimps' Tea Party 
at London Zoo?

Cheers
Dave SM/G0OIL

 

- Original Message -
From: Victor Goncharsky US5WE 
Sent: 06 June 2012 19:02
To: dx-chat@njdxa.org 
Subject: Re: [DX-CHAT] Leaderboards - good or bad?


I was making such bands/modes tables filling them by hand long before the  
computer era.
Still doing this for major DXpeditions and really surprised of the public  
excitement of such a simple thing.
Will someone prohibit me to print this SSB/CW 160-10 form for the next  
major operation?
NO.
Will someone prohibit me to work the above mentioned operation on the  
bands I need?
Again NO.
So, what's this discussion is all about?

On Tue, 05 Jun 2012 21:28:32 -, Joe Subich, W4TV   
wrote:>
>
>
> On 6/5/2012 4:39 PM, Ryan Jairam wrote:
>> I don't really buy that argument. In the last days of a DXpedition,
>> they're usually begging.
>
> You obviously did not attempt to work 7O6T on RTTY.  The Europeans
> monopolized the few available RTTY band slots and even chased 7O6T
> off RTTY many times in the last days of the DXpedition.
>
> Quite simply, Leaderboards as currently structured encourage rampant
> DX Hoggery and have no place in radiosport.
>
> 73,
>
>... Joe, W4TV
>
>
> On 6/5/2012 4:39 PM, Ryan Jairam wrote:


-- 
73 Vic US5WE/K1WE (UW5W in VHF contests) KN29AU
UARL VHF committee
Chairman, UARL Lvov Branch "LKK"
Moderator, UARL VHF portal http://www.vhfdx.at.ua
DXCC card checker in Ukraine
-
Zorg: If you want something done, do it yourself. Yep!


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Re: [DX-CHAT] Leaderboards - and everything else.

[KE1F Lou]

You are 100% right.

DX-ing and contesting is a sport using a radio receiver and a 
transmitter. Participants making an effort to maximize their score, be 
it number of countries worked or points scored in a contest.


Amateur radio is no longer a training ground for emergency or military 
communicators of the future.


Just my 2c worth of personal opinion.

73   Lou   KE1F


On 6/6/2012 1:11 PM, Wayne Mills wrote:

FWIW, DXCC wasn't something that the ARRL foisted on unsuspecting hams! It
was a product of public demand, and it continued, and continued, and
continues to this day.

Wayne, N7NG
Jackson Hole

-Original Message-
From: kf...@njdxa.org [mailto:kf...@njdxa.org] On Behalf Of Ryan Jairam
Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2012 10:44 AM
To: dx-chat
Subject: Re: [DX-CHAT] Leaderboards - and everything else.


Besides, if DeSoto didn't come up with the idea, someone else would have.

Ryan, N2RJ

On Wed, Jun 6, 2012 at 12:24 PM, Zack Widup  wrote:

Yes, I'm sure small pileups would develop occasionally to work some

station.

But without DXCC, I doubt anyone would be risking their lives and spending

a

fortune to go to places like Peter I or South Sandwich Islands. And a QSO
with someone in a European country would have equal weight with a QSO with
someone in Yemen.

I'm sure there would be people who wanted to work as many countries as

they

could on all bands and modes. But I'm willing to bet the number would be
much smaller.

But that's not the way it is and I guess we just need to live with the
existing situation.

73, Zack W9SZ


On Wed, Jun 6, 2012 at 10:35 AM, Don Berger  wrote:



Well, let me ask this question: What would the ham radio world be like
if there were no DXCC or similar awards?


Arguably better in many ways. Among them, one could argue the ability to
have prolonged and therefore interesting discussions with hams in other
parts of the world would be enjoyable and equally as challenging as DX
competition.

The lack of a DXCC certificate in no way limits or precludes the

challenge

of working countries, band-countries, zones, counties, etc... The

existence

of certificates fills a need only among those who are compelled to
demonstrate their accomplishment(s) to others who presumably couldn't

care

less. The accomplishment remains equal regardless.

I won't enumerate problems like qrm, too-wide pileup spreads, a life
outside ham radio, etc...

Just my take but for every person who lives and breathes dx, there are
many more who find enjoyment without external considerations.

Don K1VSK



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Re: [DX-CHAT] Leaderboards - good or bad?

[KE1F Lou]

This band / mode business is not new.

I have a booklet, titled :MULTI BAND DXCC "INSTA-GRESS" (Permanent Dx 
Record for all DX Awards).

This booklet is copyrighted in 1981.
This is an all paper pencil system, pre-date the Z80 Timex computer.
According to the manual pencil entries I worked 148 countries on 10 
meter by June 6, 1981.
Also, I worked East Germany on every band from 10 to 80 and both Cw and 
phone on each band.

So I guess, I am an early DX hog.
I love the on line log. No need for "insurance QSO".

73   Lou   KE1F


On 6/6/2012 9:43 AM, Zack Widup wrote:

Good points, Dave. If a DX station is calling CQ and not getting any
answers (that he can hear) I would have no problem with calling them.
Also, the on-line logs most likely DO reduce a lot of traffic from
people who aren't sure they have worked them until they find the QSO
in the log. For the current A5A DXpedition, Jon KL2A has noted there
have been several pirates active. I even heard one myself, on 30
meters a week ago. Jon even posted a spot on packet that it was a
pirate while the pirate was operating!

I remember some years ago DJ5CQ (now an SK) did quite a few Pacific
operations. There were no on-line logs back then. I worked him twice
on a couple bands as insurance contacts. When I got my cards, he had
included a card with a funny-looking creature sketched on it that said
I had worked them more than once on a band and not to do that again.

73, Zack W9SZ

On 6/6/12, DAVE WHITE  wrote:

That's exactly what I do, Zack

Unless there's some organisational cock-up (on my part - I don't use a
computer log) then I'll work a DXpedition if possible once on each band and
once on each mode.  I won't work them on a band/mode if I already have that
one confirmed.  The thought process is specifically one of "if I work them
on xxx and I don't need it then that's someone else who's not able to work
them".

The only time I'll make an exception is if the DXpedition is calling CQ and
no-one is answering them

I think that G7VJR raises a good point.  The presence of an online log stops
the temptation for insurance QSOs so in that sense it's good.  The
propagation tools are always useful if like me you work long hours and have
to make use of small time slots for calling DX.  But in truth I think that
ill-mannered selfish pigs will always be ill-mannered selfish pigs and
certain big gun DX Hogs (I could name them in G-land but of course won't)
will trample over others, calling and calling and trying to work a
Dxpedition on every band/slot whether or not there's a leader board online.
After all, they''ve been behaving like that for years anyway...

cheers

Dave G0OIL
   - Original Message -
   From: Zack Widup
   To: dx-chat
   Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 10:59 PM
   Subject: Re: [DX-CHAT] Leaderboards - good or bad?



   Someone has pointed out recently that for DXCC requirements, you could get
by with 9 QSO's which would cover 160 through 10 meters. You only need one
QSO each on CW, SSB and RTTY, so you could either fit them in amongst your 9
QSO's, or make a total of 11 QSO's to satisfy DXCC requirements.

   The Leaderboards seem to be the things that are inspiring people to make
27 QSO's with the DX. I'm sure some of these stations that are coming out on
top of the leadeboards have worked some of these stations previously on some
of those band/modes, so it becomes mostly a thing of greed and ego.

   73, Zack W9SZ



   On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 4:28 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV  wrote:





 On 6/5/2012 4:39 PM, Ryan Jairam wrote:

   I don't really buy that argument. In the last days of a DXpedition,
   they're usually begging.



 You obviously did not attempt to work 7O6T on RTTY.  The Europeans
 monopolized the few available RTTY band slots and even chased 7O6T
 off RTTY many times in the last days of the DXpedition.

 Quite simply, Leaderboards as currently structured encourage rampant
 DX Hoggery and have no place in radiosport.

 73,

  ... Joe, W4TV



 On 6/5/2012 4:39 PM, Ryan Jairam wrote:

   I don't really buy that argument. In the last days of a DXpedition,
   they're usually begging.

   Those who couldn't make a QSO probably couldn't make a QSO on a
   completely clear band anyway. There is only so much you can work with
   a dipole and 100 watts.

   And finally, DXing is competitive.You can be a good sport but you
   don't have to put yourself at a disadvantage to make others feel
   better.

   Ryan, N2RJ

   On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 4:27 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV
wrote:




 I think KQ8M's first comment in response to G7VJR's editorial is
 on point.  Clublog's "Leaderboards" should be modified to stop
 counting at 11 "band slots."  11 (or 12 if the operation works
 six meters) allows a station to work the operation on each band
 plus pick up QSOs on CW, Digital, and voice.

 Quite frankly, in spite of fall

RE: [DX-CHAT] Leaderboards - and everything else.

[Wayne Mills]

FWIW, DXCC wasn't something that the ARRL foisted on unsuspecting hams! It
was a product of public demand, and it continued, and continued, and
continues to this day.

Wayne, N7NG
Jackson Hole

-Original Message-
From: kf...@njdxa.org [mailto:kf...@njdxa.org] On Behalf Of Ryan Jairam
Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2012 10:44 AM
To: dx-chat
Subject: Re: [DX-CHAT] Leaderboards - and everything else.


Besides, if DeSoto didn't come up with the idea, someone else would have.

Ryan, N2RJ

On Wed, Jun 6, 2012 at 12:24 PM, Zack Widup  wrote:
>
> Yes, I'm sure small pileups would develop occasionally to work some
station.
> But without DXCC, I doubt anyone would be risking their lives and spending
a
> fortune to go to places like Peter I or South Sandwich Islands. And a QSO
> with someone in a European country would have equal weight with a QSO with
> someone in Yemen.
>
> I'm sure there would be people who wanted to work as many countries as
they
> could on all bands and modes. But I'm willing to bet the number would be
> much smaller.
>
> But that's not the way it is and I guess we just need to live with the
> existing situation.
>
> 73, Zack W9SZ
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 6, 2012 at 10:35 AM, Don Berger  wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Well, let me ask this question: What would the ham radio world be like
>>> if there were no DXCC or similar awards?
>>
>>
>> Arguably better in many ways. Among them, one could argue the ability to
>> have prolonged and therefore interesting discussions with hams in other
>> parts of the world would be enjoyable and equally as challenging as DX
>> competition.
>>
>> The lack of a DXCC certificate in no way limits or precludes the
challenge
>> of working countries, band-countries, zones, counties, etc... The
existence
>> of certificates fills a need only among those who are compelled to
>> demonstrate their accomplishment(s) to others who presumably couldn't
care
>> less. The accomplishment remains equal regardless.
>>
>> I won't enumerate problems like qrm, too-wide pileup spreads, a life
>> outside ham radio, etc...
>>
>> Just my take but for every person who lives and breathes dx, there are
>> many more who find enjoyment without external considerations.
>>
>> Don K1VSK
>
>
>
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-- 
Ryan A. Jairam


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Re: [DX-CHAT] Leaderboards - good or bad?

[Victor Goncharsky US5WE]

I was making such bands/modes tables filling them by hand long before the  
computer era.
Still doing this for major DXpeditions and really surprised of the public  
excitement of such a simple thing.
Will someone prohibit me to print this SSB/CW 160-10 form for the next  
major operation?

NO.
Will someone prohibit me to work the above mentioned operation on the  
bands I need?

Again NO.
So, what's this discussion is all about?

On Tue, 05 Jun 2012 21:28:32 -, Joe Subich, W4TV   
wrote:>



On 6/5/2012 4:39 PM, Ryan Jairam wrote:

I don't really buy that argument. In the last days of a DXpedition,
they're usually begging.


You obviously did not attempt to work 7O6T on RTTY.  The Europeans
monopolized the few available RTTY band slots and even chased 7O6T
off RTTY many times in the last days of the DXpedition.

Quite simply, Leaderboards as currently structured encourage rampant
DX Hoggery and have no place in radiosport.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 6/5/2012 4:39 PM, Ryan Jairam wrote:



--
73 Vic US5WE/K1WE (UW5W in VHF contests) KN29AU
UARL VHF committee
Chairman, UARL Lvov Branch "LKK"
Moderator, UARL VHF portal http://www.vhfdx.at.ua
DXCC card checker in Ukraine
-
Zorg: If you want something done, do it yourself. Yep!


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Re: [DX-CHAT] Leaderboards - and everything else.

[Don Berger]

 
Granted. As with all generalities, there is no one opinion with which everyone 
agrees. Which is why I prefaces my view with "arguably".

Consider all the things about which we generally complain - wide pileups, poor 
manners in pileups, qrm, some qsl practices, the practice of illegal 
operations, the cost of exdeditions, the incentive created for people to "risk 
their lives"( a sad and ludicrous but valid example of what DXCC brings to the 
table), the very genesis of this thread - the controversy of leaderboards, etc.

For all who find value in the DXCC program, there are counterpoints. All of 
which is a specious debate as the program won't somehow evaporate nor will the 
incentive to work dx stations by every conceivable manner. 

-- Original Message - 
  From: Zack Widup 
  To: dx-chat 
  Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2012 12:24 PM
  Subject: Re: [DX-CHAT] Leaderboards - and everything else.



  Yes, I'm sure small pileups would develop occasionally to work some station. 
But without DXCC, I doubt anyone would be risking their lives and spending a 
fortune to go to places like Peter I or South Sandwich Islands. And a QSO with 
someone in a European country would have equal weight with a QSO with someone 
in Yemen. 

  I'm sure there would be people who wanted to work as many countries as they 
could on all bands and modes. But I'm willing to bet the number would be much 
smaller.

  But that's not the way it is and I guess we just need to live with the 
existing situation. 

  73, Zack W9SZ



  On Wed, Jun 6, 2012 at 10:35 AM, Don Berger  wrote:




  Well, let me ask this question: What would the ham radio world be like
  if there were no DXCC or similar awards?



Arguably better in many ways. Among them, one could argue the ability to 
have prolonged and therefore interesting discussions with hams in other parts 
of the world would be enjoyable and equally as challenging as DX competition.

The lack of a DXCC certificate in no way limits or precludes the challenge 
of working countries, band-countries, zones, counties, etc... The existence of 
certificates fills a need only among those who are compelled to demonstrate 
their accomplishment(s) to others who presumably couldn't care less. The 
accomplishment remains equal regardless.

I won't enumerate problems like qrm, too-wide pileup spreads, a life 
outside ham radio, etc...

Just my take but for every person who lives and breathes dx, there are many 
more who find enjoyment without external considerations.

Don K1VSK 



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Re: [DX-CHAT] Leaderboards - and everything else.

[Ryan Jairam]

Besides, if DeSoto didn't come up with the idea, someone else would have.

Ryan, N2RJ

On Wed, Jun 6, 2012 at 12:24 PM, Zack Widup  wrote:
>
> Yes, I'm sure small pileups would develop occasionally to work some station.
> But without DXCC, I doubt anyone would be risking their lives and spending a
> fortune to go to places like Peter I or South Sandwich Islands. And a QSO
> with someone in a European country would have equal weight with a QSO with
> someone in Yemen.
>
> I'm sure there would be people who wanted to work as many countries as they
> could on all bands and modes. But I'm willing to bet the number would be
> much smaller.
>
> But that's not the way it is and I guess we just need to live with the
> existing situation.
>
> 73, Zack W9SZ
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 6, 2012 at 10:35 AM, Don Berger  wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Well, let me ask this question: What would the ham radio world be like
>>> if there were no DXCC or similar awards?
>>
>>
>> Arguably better in many ways. Among them, one could argue the ability to
>> have prolonged and therefore interesting discussions with hams in other
>> parts of the world would be enjoyable and equally as challenging as DX
>> competition.
>>
>> The lack of a DXCC certificate in no way limits or precludes the challenge
>> of working countries, band-countries, zones, counties, etc... The existence
>> of certificates fills a need only among those who are compelled to
>> demonstrate their accomplishment(s) to others who presumably couldn't care
>> less. The accomplishment remains equal regardless.
>>
>> I won't enumerate problems like qrm, too-wide pileup spreads, a life
>> outside ham radio, etc...
>>
>> Just my take but for every person who lives and breathes dx, there are
>> many more who find enjoyment without external considerations.
>>
>> Don K1VSK
>
>
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-- 
Ryan A. Jairam


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Re: [DX-CHAT] Leaderboards - and everything else.

[Zack Widup]

Yes, I'm sure small pileups would develop occasionally to work some
station. But without DXCC, I doubt anyone would be risking their lives and
spending a fortune to go to places like Peter I or South Sandwich Islands.
And a QSO with someone in a European country would have equal weight with a
QSO with someone in Yemen.

I'm sure there would be people who wanted to work as many countries as they
could on all bands and modes. But I'm willing to bet the number would be
much smaller.

But that's not the way it is and I guess we just need to live with the
existing situation.

73, Zack W9SZ


On Wed, Jun 6, 2012 at 10:35 AM, Don Berger  wrote:

>
>
>> Well, let me ask this question: What would the ham radio world be like
>> if there were no DXCC or similar awards?
>>
>
> Arguably better in many ways. Among them, one could argue the ability to
> have prolonged and therefore interesting discussions with hams in other
> parts of the world would be enjoyable and equally as challenging as DX
> competition.
>
> The lack of a DXCC certificate in no way limits or precludes the challenge
> of working countries, band-countries, zones, counties, etc... The existence
> of certificates fills a need only among those who are compelled to
> demonstrate their accomplishment(s) to others who presumably couldn't care
> less. The accomplishment remains equal regardless.
>
> I won't enumerate problems like qrm, too-wide pileup spreads, a life
> outside ham radio, etc...
>
> Just my take but for every person who lives and breathes dx, there are
> many more who find enjoyment without external considerations.
>
> Don K1VSK
>


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Re: [DX-CHAT] Leaderboards - and everything else.

[Ryan Jairam]

 
You are stating your view of amateur radio, but it is certainly not
universal. Some people hate long conversation on amateur radio, or any
medium for that matter.

I rarely ever have a long conversation on amateur radio. To me that's
not really the point of the medium. In fact I have more conversations
with hams (and others) on VOIP services such as Skype. There are no
content restrictions and we're not subject to QRM, QRN and the like
and it is private among us.

I can use any medium to talk.

But to experiment with and play with radio, I use amateur radio. This
includes DXing, which lets me investigate radio wave propagation as
well as improve my station and compare how it performs to others.

And this whole "accomplishment is equal" stuff? Works for some people,
not for others. There is definitely competition, whether it be between
hams in a club or against strangers who you don't know, or even your
past accomplishments.

Not everyone wants to be casual. Some want to be competitive.


Ryan, N2RJ


On Wed, Jun 6, 2012 at 11:35 AM, Don Berger  wrote:
>
>
>>
>> Well, let me ask this question: What would the ham radio world be like
>> if there were no DXCC or similar awards?
>
>
> Arguably better in many ways. Among them, one could argue the ability to
> have prolonged and therefore interesting discussions with hams in other
> parts of the world would be enjoyable and equally as challenging as DX
> competition.
>
> The lack of a DXCC certificate in no way limits or precludes the challenge
> of working countries, band-countries, zones, counties, etc... The existence
> of certificates fills a need only among those who are compelled to
> demonstrate their accomplishment(s) to others who presumably couldn't care
> less. The accomplishment remains equal regardless.
>
> I won't enumerate problems like qrm, too-wide pileup spreads, a life outside
> ham radio, etc...
>
> Just my take but for every person who lives and breathes dx, there are many
> more who find enjoyment without external considerations.
>
> Don K1VSK
>
>
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-- 
Ryan A. Jairam


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Re: [DX-CHAT] Leaderboards - and everything else.

[Don Berger]

Well, let me ask this question: What would the ham radio world be like
if there were no DXCC or similar awards?


Arguably better in many ways. Among them, one could argue the ability to 
have prolonged and therefore interesting discussions with hams in other 
parts of the world would be enjoyable and equally as challenging as DX 
competition.


The lack of a DXCC certificate in no way limits or precludes the challenge 
of working countries, band-countries, zones, counties, etc... The existence 
of certificates fills a need only among those who are compelled to 
demonstrate their accomplishment(s) to others who presumably couldn't care 
less. The accomplishment remains equal regardless.


I won't enumerate problems like qrm, too-wide pileup spreads, a life outside 
ham radio, etc...


Just my take but for every person who lives and breathes dx, there are many 
more who find enjoyment without external considerations.


Don K1VSK 




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RE: [DX-CHAT] Leaderboards - good or bad?

[Peter W2IRT]

I chase them across all bands/modes for the same reason that climbers climb
mountains; because they're there. I'm not going to interfere with anybody
else's business of working DX and I will resent anybody poking their nose
into mine. So long as everybody is operating legally I'm good with however
it plays out. 

The reality is, it's up to the DX how they want to run their operation. If
they choose to use Clublog then they'll have to expect greenie-chasers.
There's nothing stopping a DXpedition from having a strict rule in place and
publicized everywhere: Work us once per band only: Anything beyond will be
N.I.L. Or even once per mode, or once, period. That's their call and it'll
be up to us to abide by their decisions.

Maybe the Clublog guys can come up with a modified version that shows all 9
or 10 bands, by themselves, then all 3 modes, by themselves not in a matrix
format. And no leaderboards. If a DXpedition doesn't want dupes then it's
their decision and we must support that. On the other hand, if it's a T32C
or HK0NA, I'm all for popping them on as many combinations as they operate. 

 - pjd


-Original Message-
From: kf...@njdxa.org [mailto:kf...@njdxa.org] On Behalf Of Paul M Dunphy
Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 2:55 PM
To: NJDXA DX Chat
Subject: [DX-CHAT] Leaderboards - good or bad?


 G7VJR's point of view (ClubLog creator and T32C participant):

http://g7vjr.org/2012/06/expedition-leaderboards-good-or-bad/

73, Paul VE1DX



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Re: [DX-CHAT] Leaderboards - and everything else.

[Ed Benkis]

 
Isn't it nice that we can discuss things like this.  So much better than 
complaining about the weather!

But, in the light of recent discussions an old adage comes to mind:
"For every problem there is a solution.  For every solution there is ...!"

Not that I have the solution.  I'm not sure that I even understand the problem.
But, it's fun talking about it!  I get nervous when things get overly quiet.  
Keep up the good work!   73 & DXEd  W2HTI


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Re: [DX-CHAT] Leaderboards - and everything else.

[Zack Widup]

Well, let me ask this question: What would the ham radio world be like
if there were no DXCC or similar awards? How much would a DX station
in some semi-rare place like Andorra get pileups when he was on the
air?

I could see someone like JY1 having pileups whether or not there was a
DXCC, but there aren't that many celebrities in amateur radio. I
suspect if there were no DXCC, people would just work DX once in a
while for the novelty of it and there would be actual conversations
taking place, not just "599 TU." And no one else would care.

I myself am not trying to make HR on every band and every mode. Is
there anyone who does have HR on every band? Right now I'm just
interested in HR for the basic Mixed award.

DXing is only competitive in the case where a DXpedition is only going
to have a limited amount of time and is only going to make a certain
number of QSO's. If a station is only going to have propagation to an
area of the world for a couple hours on a certain band (say 20 meters
as was the case to the USA for the last VU7 operation) then if they
spend all their time working other areas of the world who want to fill
their band/modes during those couple hours, they are going to get
someone angry. Someone is going to get cheated. A DXpedition to a
Pacific island did just that a few years ago. They only worked JA's on
the low bands during the US sunrise. I think they got a lot of us
upset. I commend the A5A operation for only working NA stations during
the couple hours that they have peak propagation to here.

Some people who actually live in a certain country or who have lived
there for a couple years on an assignment usually work everyone who
wants a QSO. I think of A22MN as an example. I heard him calling CQ
with no takers after he'd been in Botswana for a year. That doesn't
look like competition to me. But Dave was on the air a lot. Monk
Apollo isn't on the air that much and is still in demand.

I guess you'd have to look at each station on an individual basis.
It's very rare that someone is going to make everyone happy.

73, Zack W9SZ


On 6/6/12, Ernie Walls  wrote:
>
> Question.
>
>
>
> Just what is wrong, exactly, with working a DXpedition by band/mode?
>
>
>
> What's the problem?
>
>
>
> Isn't that what we all want to do anyway, that is, work everyone on all
> bands and all modes? Isn't that why the DXpedition goes too far flung
> places
> at great expense for - to have as many QSOs as they can.
>
>
>
> Why do we have so many people 'setting the rules' for others.
>
>
>
> Seems to me if you work what you want then I will not say anything to you,
> and if I work what I want, then I don't expect you to say anything (to me,
> that is). Seems like it might work OK!
>
>
>
> Only one over-riding rule - we all do it with some dignity and fairness to
> all.
>
>
>
> I get sick of being told what to do by others - my government runs most of
> my life, my XYL most of the rest of it - guys, give me a break and let me
> live what is left by my own rules. Because I most certainly will not be
> taking any notice of any of you, anyway.
>
>
>
> Some years ago, our (then) Prime Minister said something like 'life wasn't
> meant to be easy'! He was right, you know.
>
>
>
> Good DXing to all. Fair and dignified, that is.
>
>
>
> Ernie
>
> Ernie H Walls VK3FM
>
> vk...@wallsy.com.au
>
> Mobile 0418 301 483
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
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>
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Re: [DX-CHAT] Leaderboards - good or bad?

[Zack Widup]

Good points, Dave. If a DX station is calling CQ and not getting any
answers (that he can hear) I would have no problem with calling them.
Also, the on-line logs most likely DO reduce a lot of traffic from
people who aren't sure they have worked them until they find the QSO
in the log. For the current A5A DXpedition, Jon KL2A has noted there
have been several pirates active. I even heard one myself, on 30
meters a week ago. Jon even posted a spot on packet that it was a
pirate while the pirate was operating!

I remember some years ago DJ5CQ (now an SK) did quite a few Pacific
operations. There were no on-line logs back then. I worked him twice
on a couple bands as insurance contacts. When I got my cards, he had
included a card with a funny-looking creature sketched on it that said
I had worked them more than once on a band and not to do that again.

73, Zack W9SZ

On 6/6/12, DAVE WHITE  wrote:
>
> That's exactly what I do, Zack
>
> Unless there's some organisational cock-up (on my part - I don't use a
> computer log) then I'll work a DXpedition if possible once on each band and
> once on each mode.  I won't work them on a band/mode if I already have that
> one confirmed.  The thought process is specifically one of "if I work them
> on xxx and I don't need it then that's someone else who's not able to work
> them".
>
> The only time I'll make an exception is if the DXpedition is calling CQ and
> no-one is answering them
>
> I think that G7VJR raises a good point.  The presence of an online log stops
> the temptation for insurance QSOs so in that sense it's good.  The
> propagation tools are always useful if like me you work long hours and have
> to make use of small time slots for calling DX.  But in truth I think that
> ill-mannered selfish pigs will always be ill-mannered selfish pigs and
> certain big gun DX Hogs (I could name them in G-land but of course won't)
> will trample over others, calling and calling and trying to work a
> Dxpedition on every band/slot whether or not there's a leader board online.
> After all, they''ve been behaving like that for years anyway...
>
> cheers
>
> Dave G0OIL
>   - Original Message -
>   From: Zack Widup
>   To: dx-chat
>   Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 10:59 PM
>   Subject: Re: [DX-CHAT] Leaderboards - good or bad?
>
>
>
>   Someone has pointed out recently that for DXCC requirements, you could get
> by with 9 QSO's which would cover 160 through 10 meters. You only need one
> QSO each on CW, SSB and RTTY, so you could either fit them in amongst your 9
> QSO's, or make a total of 11 QSO's to satisfy DXCC requirements.
>
>   The Leaderboards seem to be the things that are inspiring people to make
> 27 QSO's with the DX. I'm sure some of these stations that are coming out on
> top of the leadeboards have worked some of these stations previously on some
> of those band/modes, so it becomes mostly a thing of greed and ego.
>
>   73, Zack W9SZ
>
>
>
>   On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 4:28 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV  wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> On 6/5/2012 4:39 PM, Ryan Jairam wrote:
>
>   I don't really buy that argument. In the last days of a DXpedition,
>   they're usually begging.
>
>
>
> You obviously did not attempt to work 7O6T on RTTY.  The Europeans
> monopolized the few available RTTY band slots and even chased 7O6T
> off RTTY many times in the last days of the DXpedition.
>
> Quite simply, Leaderboards as currently structured encourage rampant
> DX Hoggery and have no place in radiosport.
>
> 73,
>
>  ... Joe, W4TV
>
>
>
> On 6/5/2012 4:39 PM, Ryan Jairam wrote:
>
>   I don't really buy that argument. In the last days of a DXpedition,
>   they're usually begging.
>
>   Those who couldn't make a QSO probably couldn't make a QSO on a
>   completely clear band anyway. There is only so much you can work with
>   a dipole and 100 watts.
>
>   And finally, DXing is competitive.You can be a good sport but you
>   don't have to put yourself at a disadvantage to make others feel
>   better.
>
>   Ryan, N2RJ
>
>   On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 4:27 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> I think KQ8M's first comment in response to G7VJR's editorial is
> on point.  Clublog's "Leaderboards" should be modified to stop
> counting at 11 "band slots."  11 (or 12 if the operation works
> six meters) allows a station to work the operation on each band
> plus pick up QSOs on CW, Digital, and voice.
>
> Quite frankly, in spite of falling prey to the seduction of high
> leaderboard numbers a time or two myself, anyone who shows up with
> more than 14 or 15 band slots is simply a DX HOG.  There is simply
> no excuse for such behavior.
>
> N1DG's presentation at Dayton clearly showed the DX HOGs do not
> provide increased support (contributions with QSL) relative to
> the number of band slots worked ... even the "more QSOs mean m

Re: [DX-CHAT] Leaderboards - and everything else.

[Ryan Jairam]

People are talking about "DX hogs" and "giving others a chance" but in
reality DXing is a competitive endeavor. It is never going to be
"fair" and "even" for everyone.

Ask yourself - why do you DX? Why do you submit your cards for DXCC?
Why do you keep totals? Why do you work more than 100 countries? If
you are on Honor Roll, why do you keep working more entities?

Why do you pay $2 $5, $10 or more for a piece of paper to prove that
you did something? The answer is because DXing is all about
competition, and we are competing against ourselves and each other.

The rules of the game are clearly spelt out - you can obtain many
different kinds of awards. So why should people not avail themselves
of the chance?

If someone wants to fill up all the green slots, then let them do so!
You don't know their motivation. You may think that they are doing it
to lessen the pleasure of others but in most cases it is not so. I
personally work as many as I can (given time constraints, because ya
know, life gets in the way) because I don't know if a particular
entity is going to show up on a particular band/mode ever again. With
world politics, war, dictatorial regimes, terrorism, or just some
bureaucrat itching to say no, you never know when you'll get to work
all of the slots for a particular entity.

Right now I have mixed and I am working towards challenge and 5
band... but in the future I may decide to apply for CW, phone, digital
DXCC, or individual band endorsements. How do I know if Yemen,
Desecheo, Somalia or some other entity is going to come on air EVER
again in my lifetime? I don't. So I work them now, and keep those QSOs
"in the bank" in case I decide to get some other award later on.

I do agree that those making multiple QSOs, same band, mode are
abusing the system. But if you are doing DIFFERENT band/mode slots, I
don't see the problem.

Off soap box

73
Ryan, N2RJ


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Re: [DX-CHAT] Leaderboards and Tom's yardstick

[Tom Wylie]

Well precisely Dave - I mean if you have sufficient operators, with 
sufficient kit and they stay there a long time, it stands to reason they 
are going to
break records - my dog';s bigger than your dog! etc. But, it depends 
upon the obectives of the expedition.If like T32C you want to get 
through the layers
of big guns, down to the QRP and dipoles and G5RVs, then you have to be 
operating 24/7 with a lot of stations and stay for a good while.   There 
are too many
variables.In the Carribean you are close to the USA and can keep the 
number up on any band,  likewith I guess 7O6T was close to Europe, with 
a big
catchment area. Some of the Pacific Islands are great for Japan and 
the West Coast USA, but perhaps less so for Europe..


But, to me, actual numbers are pretty meaningless.  I mean, if I go 
to Banaba on my own for 5 days and make 1,000 Qs per day = 5,000 QSOs,   
would that
in the greater scheme of things be a good efort  1,000 Qs per 
operator per day   or would it be lost in the annals of time as a small 
insignificant operation.

I would expect to make that number of QSOs per day (at least) during CQWW.

By the way,  its time Banaba was done again.

:-) Tom
GM4FDM



On 06/06/2012 09:40, DAVE WHITE wrote:

Hi think that's a great way of looking at things, Tom
I thought that the 7O6T guys did an amazing job before I saw your 
analysis, but I guess that figure really hammers home quite how 
incredible their QSO rate was.  I bet they slept for a week when they 
got home.
I suppose the counter argument to judging a DXpedition simply by 
number of QSOs is - as others have suggested - where those QSOs came 
from, hence the point from our friends across the Atlantic that the 
7O6T team apparently didn't look to maximise band openings to North 
America (and elsewhere) - whereas Neville G3NUG told me that working 
the hard-to-work paths was specifically a goal of T32C, possibly 
partly (along with other factors) explaining the lower QSO rate
As you say, it all depends on the objectives of the Dxpedition and as 
Benjamin Disraeli alluded, interpretation of statistics can be dangerous

cheers
Dave G0OIL

- Original Message -
*From:* Tom Wylie 
*To:* list...@ve1dx.net 
*Cc:* NJDXA DX Chat 
*Sent:* Tuesday, June 05, 2012 8:17 PM
*Subject:* Re: [DX-CHAT] Leaderboards - good or bad?


One of my personal yardstick of the "goodness" of an expedition is
NOT the total number of QSOs made
as that depends entirely on the number of operators, stations and
the duration
but I like to look at the TOTAL QSOs made by the NUMBER of
OPERATORS and the NUMBER of DAYS taken into account

Like:

CallTotal QSOs  No of Operators No of Days  No
of QSOs made per operator per day

T32C2130063830   
186
D68C1685913220   
263
HK0NA   1952922727   
267

7O6T1620291715 *635*

I guess it all depends on the objectives of the expedition

work uniques??
work down to the third and fourth tier?
max out the QSOs?

etc etc.

Its just my way of looking and comparing things


Tom
GM4FDM



On 05/06/2012 19:54, Paul M Dunphy wrote:


G7VJR's point of view (ClubLog creator and T32C participant):

http://g7vjr.org/2012/06/expedition-leaderboards-good-or-bad/

73, Paul VE1DX



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[DX-CHAT] Leaderboards - and everything else.

[Ernie Walls]

Question.

 

Just what is wrong, exactly, with working a DXpedition by band/mode?

 

What's the problem? 

 

Isn't that what we all want to do anyway, that is, work everyone on all
bands and all modes? Isn't that why the DXpedition goes too far flung places
at great expense for - to have as many QSOs as they can. 

 

Why do we have so many people 'setting the rules' for others. 

 

Seems to me if you work what you want then I will not say anything to you,
and if I work what I want, then I don't expect you to say anything (to me,
that is). Seems like it might work OK!

 

Only one over-riding rule - we all do it with some dignity and fairness to
all.

 

I get sick of being told what to do by others - my government runs most of
my life, my XYL most of the rest of it - guys, give me a break and let me
live what is left by my own rules. Because I most certainly will not be
taking any notice of any of you, anyway.

 

Some years ago, our (then) Prime Minister said something like 'life wasn't
meant to be easy'! He was right, you know.

 

Good DXing to all. Fair and dignified, that is.

 

Ernie

Ernie H Walls VK3FM

vk...@wallsy.com.au

Mobile 0418 301 483

 

 



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Re: [DX-CHAT] Leaderboards and Tom's yardstick

[DAVE WHITE]

 
Hi think that's a great way of looking at things, Tom 

I thought that the 7O6T guys did an amazing job before I saw your analysis, but 
I guess that figure really hammers home quite how incredible their QSO rate 
was.  I bet they slept for a week when they got home.

I suppose the counter argument to judging a DXpedition simply by number of QSOs 
is - as others have suggested - where those QSOs came from, hence the point 
from our friends across the Atlantic that the 7O6T team apparently didn't look 
to maximise band openings to North America (and elsewhere) - whereas Neville 
G3NUG told me that working the hard-to-work paths was specifically a goal of 
T32C, possibly partly (along with other factors) explaining the lower QSO rate

As you say, it all depends on the objectives of the Dxpedition and as Benjamin 
Disraeli alluded, interpretation of statistics can be dangerous 

cheers

Dave G0OIL
  - Original Message - 
  From: Tom Wylie 
  To: list...@ve1dx.net 
  Cc: NJDXA DX Chat 
  Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 8:17 PM
  Subject: Re: [DX-CHAT] Leaderboards - good or bad?



  One of my personal yardstick of the "goodness" of an expedition is NOT the 
total number of QSOs made
  as that depends entirely on the number of operators, stations and the duration
  but I like to look at the TOTAL QSOs made by the NUMBER of OPERATORS and the 
NUMBER of DAYS taken into account

  Like:

  CallTotal QSOs  No of Operators No of Days  No of QSOs 
made per operator per day

  T32C2130063830186
  D68C1685913220263
  HK0NA   1952922727267
  7O6T1620291715635

  I guess it all depends on the objectives of the expedition

  work uniques??
  work down to the third and fourth tier?
  max out the QSOs?

  etc etc.

  Its just my way of looking and comparing things


  Tom
  GM4FDM



  On 05/06/2012 19:54, Paul M Dunphy wrote: 

G7VJR's point of view (ClubLog creator and T32C participant): 

http://g7vjr.org/2012/06/expedition-leaderboards-good-or-bad/ 

73, Paul VE1DX 



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Re: [DX-CHAT] Leaderboards - good or bad?

[DAVE WHITE]

 
That's exactly what I do, Zack

Unless there's some organisational cock-up (on my part - I don't use a computer 
log) then I'll work a DXpedition if possible once on each band and once on each 
mode.  I won't work them on a band/mode if I already have that one confirmed.  
The thought process is specifically one of "if I work them on xxx and I don't 
need it then that's someone else who's not able to work them".  

The only time I'll make an exception is if the DXpedition is calling CQ and 
no-one is answering them

I think that G7VJR raises a good point.  The presence of an online log stops 
the temptation for insurance QSOs so in that sense it's good.  The propagation 
tools are always useful if like me you work long hours and have to make use of 
small time slots for calling DX.  But in truth I think that ill-mannered 
selfish pigs will always be ill-mannered selfish pigs and certain big gun DX 
Hogs (I could name them in G-land but of course won't) will trample over 
others, calling and calling and trying to work a Dxpedition on every band/slot 
whether or not there's a leader board online.  After all, they''ve been 
behaving like that for years anyway... 

cheers

Dave G0OIL
  - Original Message - 
  From: Zack Widup 
  To: dx-chat 
  Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 10:59 PM
  Subject: Re: [DX-CHAT] Leaderboards - good or bad?



  Someone has pointed out recently that for DXCC requirements, you could get by 
with 9 QSO's which would cover 160 through 10 meters. You only need one QSO 
each on CW, SSB and RTTY, so you could either fit them in amongst your 9 QSO's, 
or make a total of 11 QSO's to satisfy DXCC requirements.

  The Leaderboards seem to be the things that are inspiring people to make 27 
QSO's with the DX. I'm sure some of these stations that are coming out on top 
of the leadeboards have worked some of these stations previously on some of 
those band/modes, so it becomes mostly a thing of greed and ego.

  73, Zack W9SZ



  On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 4:28 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV  wrote:





On 6/5/2012 4:39 PM, Ryan Jairam wrote:

  I don't really buy that argument. In the last days of a DXpedition,
  they're usually begging.



You obviously did not attempt to work 7O6T on RTTY.  The Europeans
monopolized the few available RTTY band slots and even chased 7O6T
off RTTY many times in the last days of the DXpedition.

Quite simply, Leaderboards as currently structured encourage rampant
DX Hoggery and have no place in radiosport.

73,

 ... Joe, W4TV



On 6/5/2012 4:39 PM, Ryan Jairam wrote:

  I don't really buy that argument. In the last days of a DXpedition,
  they're usually begging.

  Those who couldn't make a QSO probably couldn't make a QSO on a
  completely clear band anyway. There is only so much you can work with
  a dipole and 100 watts.

  And finally, DXing is competitive.You can be a good sport but you
  don't have to put yourself at a disadvantage to make others feel
  better.

  Ryan, N2RJ

  On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 4:27 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV  wrote:




I think KQ8M's first comment in response to G7VJR's editorial is
on point.  Clublog's "Leaderboards" should be modified to stop
counting at 11 "band slots."  11 (or 12 if the operation works
six meters) allows a station to work the operation on each band
plus pick up QSOs on CW, Digital, and voice.

Quite frankly, in spite of falling prey to the seduction of high
leaderboard numbers a time or two myself, anyone who shows up with
more than 14 or 15 band slots is simply a DX HOG.  There is simply
no excuse for such behavior.

N1DG's presentation at Dayton clearly showed the DX HOGs do not
provide increased support (contributions with QSL) relative to
the number of band slots worked ... even the "more QSOs mean more
revenue" argument falls flat.

73,

 ... Joe, W4TV



On 6/5/2012 2:54 PM, Paul M Dunphy wrote:



  G7VJR's point of view (ClubLog creator and T32C participant):

  http://g7vjr.org/2012/06/expedition-leaderboards-good-or-bad/

  73, Paul VE1DX



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