Re: [Elecraft] K3 inline fuse

2010-08-13 Thread David Cutter
Good advice from you both on battery fusing, particularly in vehicles, but 
you've drifted off the subject a little.
Chris W7CTH said:
Hi, I am ready to apply 12v for the first time to my new K3. 

I would use a current-limited power supply to connect up ANY equipment for 
the first time.  No fuse is as fast as electronic limiting.

Even the fastest semiconductor fuses require a huge overload to achieve a 
sluggish response.  Busman 25A fuse: 340A^2t.  I'm not an expert, but divide 
340 by the time you want it break and then take the square root, I think 
that's how it's done.  So, to blow in 100ms it takes 58A.  Someone put me 
right.  UK 13A plug fuses need 2.1 x 13A to guarantee to blow in 30seconds!

David
G3UNA






 Tom,

 You are absolutely correct.  Take a mobile situation - the radio's power
 ground is connected to the transceiver chassis ground, as is the coax
 shield, microphone shield and other stuff.  All that stuff can (and
 will) connect to the vehicle chassis at some point.  I know the coax
 will connect at the point where it attaches to the antenna.

 Now imagine a situation where the negative lead fuse is open.  The
 vehicle chassis is still connected to the battery negative - so the
 radio gets it positive lead directly from the battery (since that fuse
 is still good), but the negative battery terminal voltage flows through
 the vehicle chassis to the point where the coax shield connects to the
 vehicle chassis (presumably at the antenna), and then follows the coax
 shield to the transceiver.  The transceiver still works, so you (the
 operator) are not aware that the negative fuse has opened, but the DC
 current paths will give rise to strange happenings.

 Bottom line, follow Tom's advice and fuse only the positive lead, and in
 a mobile situation, take the negative voltage from the vehicle chassis
 close to the radio.

 The fusing of the negative lead started when some were concerned about
 the vehicle's battery to engine block (or vehicle chassis) connection is
 broken, which could lead to massive starting motor currents being
 conducted from the coax ground at the mobile antenna, through the radio,
 and onto the battery negative terminal.  Yes, that situation is quite
 real, but can be circumvented by periodically checking the engine block
 to chassis grounding in the vehicle, as well as the battery negative
 connection to the vehicle chassis.

 If the radio has an isolated (floating) negative connection (I believe
 only commercial mobile radios do that), then fusing of the negative lead
 is OK, but for most ham radios, the fusing of the negative lead can
 cause as much damage as the reasons given for inserting a fuse into the
 negative lead.  Take your pick.

 73,
 Don W3FPR

 Tom W8JI wrote:
 Positive lead fuses are a good idea.

 Negative lead fuses never were a good idea unless the radio has a totally
 floating negative buss.

 If the negative lead fuse to the radio opens for any reason all the 
 negative
 lead current for the radio will flow through the negative lead of any
 accessories connected to the power supply.

 They are a terrible idea for any system with the negative lead common to
 ports in and out of the radio, or to the chassis. You certainly won't 
 catch
 me using one!The negative lead needs to be connected solidly to the power
 supply negative for a multitude of reasons, the most prominent of which 
 is
 if the negative lead fuse to the radio opens you can blow up accessories 
 or
 open ground traces including traces in the radio.

 They are not even recommended in vehicles any longer in some countries
 because of the fire and damage hazard they create.

 73 Tom
 

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 inline fuse

2010-08-13 Thread Ian White GM3SEK
David Cutter wrote:

I would use a current-limited power supply to connect up ANY equipment 
for the first time.  No fuse is as fast as electronic limiting.

Even the fastest semiconductor fuses require a huge overload to achieve 
a sluggish response.  Busman 25A fuse: 340A^2t.  I'm not an expert, but 
divide 340 by the time you want it break and then take the square root, 
I think that's how it's done.  So, to blow in 100ms it takes 58A. 
Someone put me right.  UK 13A plug fuses need 2.1 x 13A to guarantee to 
blow in 30seconds!


The other important point is that fuses provide ZERO protection until 
AFTER they have blown. In the life and death of a semiconductor, even a 
few milliseconds is a very long time indeed.


-- 

73 from Ian GM3SEK
http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 inline fuse

2010-08-13 Thread Chris Hembree
I did not have a current-limited power supply. Just a Astrom rs-35m. anyway I 
just went for it and everything worked out okay.
all my ohm reading were all in the safe range and I did take my time to make 
sure I did eveything right.

K3 turned on okay.
Chris





From: David Cutter d.cut...@ntlworld.com
To: d...@w3fpr.com; Tom W8JI w...@w8ji.com
Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net; Chris Hembree w7...@yahoo.com
Sent: Fri, August 13, 2010 12:33:33 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 inline fuse

Good advice from you both on battery fusing, particularly in vehicles, but 
you've drifted off the subject a little.
Chris W7CTH said:
Hi, I am ready to apply 12v for the first time to my new K3. 

I would use a current-limited power supply to connect up ANY equipment for the 
first time.  No fuse is as fast as electronic limiting.

Even the fastest semiconductor fuses require a huge overload to achieve a 
sluggish response.  Busman 25A fuse: 340A^2t.  I'm not an expert, but divide 
340 
by the time you want it break and then take the square root, I think that's how 
it's done.  So, to blow in 100ms it takes 58A.  Someone put me right.  UK 13A 
plug fuses need 2.1 x 13A to guarantee to blow in 30seconds!

David
G3UNA






 Tom,
 
 You are absolutely correct.  Take a mobile situation - the radio's power
 ground is connected to the transceiver chassis ground, as is the coax
 shield, microphone shield and other stuff.  All that stuff can (and
 will) connect to the vehicle chassis at some point.  I know the coax
 will connect at the point where it attaches to the antenna.
 
 Now imagine a situation where the negative lead fuse is open.  The
 vehicle chassis is still connected to the battery negative - so the
 radio gets it positive lead directly from the battery (since that fuse
 is still good), but the negative battery terminal voltage flows through
 the vehicle chassis to the point where the coax shield connects to the
 vehicle chassis (presumably at the antenna), and then follows the coax
 shield to the transceiver.  The transceiver still works, so you (the
 operator) are not aware that the negative fuse has opened, but the DC
 current paths will give rise to strange happenings.
 
 Bottom line, follow Tom's advice and fuse only the positive lead, and in
 a mobile situation, take the negative voltage from the vehicle chassis
 close to the radio.
 
 The fusing of the negative lead started when some were concerned about
 the vehicle's battery to engine block (or vehicle chassis) connection is
 broken, which could lead to massive starting motor currents being
 conducted from the coax ground at the mobile antenna, through the radio,
 and onto the battery negative terminal.  Yes, that situation is quite
 real, but can be circumvented by periodically checking the engine block
 to chassis grounding in the vehicle, as well as the battery negative
 connection to the vehicle chassis.
 
 If the radio has an isolated (floating) negative connection (I believe
 only commercial mobile radios do that), then fusing of the negative lead
 is OK, but for most ham radios, the fusing of the negative lead can
 cause as much damage as the reasons given for inserting a fuse into the
 negative lead.  Take your pick.
 
 73,
 Don W3FPR
 
 Tom W8JI wrote:
 Positive lead fuses are a good idea.
 
 Negative lead fuses never were a good idea unless the radio has a totally
 floating negative buss.
 
 If the negative lead fuse to the radio opens for any reason all the negative
 lead current for the radio will flow through the negative lead of any
 accessories connected to the power supply.
 
 They are a terrible idea for any system with the negative lead common to
 ports in and out of the radio, or to the chassis. You certainly won't catch
 me using one!The negative lead needs to be connected solidly to the power
 supply negative for a multitude of reasons, the most prominent of which is
 if the negative lead fuse to the radio opens you can blow up accessories or
 open ground traces including traces in the radio.
 
 They are not even recommended in vehicles any longer in some countries
 because of the fire and damage hazard they create.
 
 73 Tom
 


  
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 inline fuse

2010-08-13 Thread Jim Brown
On Fri, 13 Aug 2010 11:08:04 +0100, Ian White GM3SEK wrote:

The other important point is that fuses provide ZERO protection until 
AFTER they have blown. In the life and death of a semiconductor, even a 
few milliseconds is a very long time indeed.

Yes. On the other hand, boards are all pre-tested at the factory, and 
assembly instructions included several resistance checks, which I suspect 
are carefully selected to expose any faults that may have happened during 
assembly. 

73, Jim K9YC


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Re: [Elecraft] K3 inline fuse

2010-08-13 Thread gdaught6
Ian wrote...

 The other important point is that fuses provide ZERO protection until 
 AFTER they have blown. In the life and death of a semiconductor, even a 
 few milliseconds is a very long time indeed.

I like to tell the story about a series of tests we did when I worked at 
Fairchild, in 
Silicon Valley.  Our little VHF silicon transistors were very expensive, and 
quite 
fragile.  We tested many fuses to identify which one(s) would be suitable 
protection 
for the transistors.  To summarize:  transistors are a very effective way of 
protecting 
fuses!

73,

George T Daughters, K6GT
CU in the California QSO Party (CQP)
October 2-3, 2010


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Re: [Elecraft] K3 inline fuse

2010-08-13 Thread David Cutter
A transistor is the fastest fuse on 3 legs, beats a 2-legged fuse any day.

David
G3UNA

 I like to tell the story about a series of tests we did when I worked at 
 Fairchild, in
 Silicon Valley.  Our little VHF silicon transistors were very expensive, 
 and quite
 fragile.  We tested many fuses to identify which one(s) would be suitable 
 protection
 for the transistors.  To summarize:  transistors are a very effective way 
 of protecting
 fuses!

 73,

 George T Daughters, K6GT
 CU in the California QSO Party (CQP)
 October 2-3, 2010 

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 inline fuse

2010-08-13 Thread Willis
The transistor is the most probable reason for the fuse blowing but the fuse 
may save the other components and semi conductors as well as the circuit board. 
 The original query stated he would be using an Astron 35 which has a current 
limiter but limiting the current to 35 amps will still allow a lot of damage.

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 13, 2010, at 9:55, gdaug...@stanford.edu wrote:

 Ian wrote...
 
 The other important point is that fuses provide ZERO protection until 
 AFTER they have blown. In the life and death of a semiconductor, even a 
 few milliseconds is a very long time indeed.
 
 I like to tell the story about a series of tests we did when I worked at 
 Fairchild, in 
 Silicon Valley.  Our little VHF silicon transistors were very expensive, and 
 quite 
 fragile.  We tested many fuses to identify which one(s) would be suitable 
 protection 
 for the transistors.  To summarize:  transistors are a very effective way of 
 protecting 
 fuses!
 
 73,
 
 George T Daughters, K6GT
 CU in the California QSO Party (CQP)
 October 2-3, 2010
 
 
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 inline fuse current limiting

2010-08-13 Thread Tom W8JI
If you do not have an **adjustable** current limited supply, do what I do on 
the bench.

I have a 35 amp limited supply on the bench, and my 13.8 volt buss has jacks 
that are direct, through a 10 ohm 10 watt resistor, and through a second 10 
ohm in series with that.

I can get a really good idea if something is going to power up OK because I 
can start with 20 ohms, move the tap to 10 ohms, and then add a jumper plug 
to make it 5 ohms. My supply also is variable voltage, and although it only 
goes down to 9 volts (and up to 18) that still helps.

Many things do not show with a resistance test, but a resistor limited test 
will show problems with popping bigger transistors or foil traces. 

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 inline fuse

2010-08-13 Thread Joe Planisky
One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that the K3 has a built-in 6A  
fuse for the basic rig and a separate 20A circuit breaker for the  
KPA3.  So it's not like there's no protection at all between the APP  
connector and the internal circuits.

73
--
Joe KB8AP

On Aug 13, 2010, at 9:02 AM, Willis wrote:

 The transistor is the most probable reason for the fuse blowing but  
 the fuse may save the other components and semi conductors as well  
 as the circuit board.  The original query stated he would be using  
 an Astron 35 which has a current limiter but limiting the current to  
 35 amps will still allow a lot of damage.

 Sent from my iPhone

 On Aug 13, 2010, at 9:55, gdaug...@stanford.edu wrote:

 Ian wrote...

 The other important point is that fuses provide ZERO protection  
 until
 AFTER they have blown. In the life and death of a semiconductor,  
 even a
 few milliseconds is a very long time indeed.

 I like to tell the story about a series of tests we did when I  
 worked at Fairchild, in
 Silicon Valley.  Our little VHF silicon transistors were very  
 expensive, and quite
 fragile.  We tested many fuses to identify which one(s) would be  
 suitable protection
 for the transistors.  To summarize:  transistors are a very  
 effective way of protecting
 fuses!

 73,

 George T Daughters, K6GT
 CU in the California QSO Party (CQP)
 October 2-3, 2010


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Re: [Elecraft] K3 inline fuse

2010-08-13 Thread Jan Erik Holm
Amen!  Best so far.
Let´s move on.
/ James
-
On 2010-08-13 17:01, David Cutter wrote:
 A transistor is the fastest fuse on 3 legs, beats a 2-legged fuse any day.

 David
 G3UNA

 I like to tell the story about a series of tests we did when I worked at
 Fairchild, in
 Silicon Valley.  Our little VHF silicon transistors were very expensive,
 and quite
 fragile.  We tested many fuses to identify which one(s) would be suitable
 protection
 for the transistors.  To summarize:  transistors are a very effective way
 of protecting
 fuses!

 73,

 George T Daughters, K6GT
 CU in the California QSO Party (CQP)
 October 2-3, 2010

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 inline fuse

2010-08-12 Thread David Cutter
You are much better off using the current limiting feature of your dc 
supply.  A fuse is not fast enough to protect any electronic circuitry. 
Strictly speaking a fuse in line is rated to protect the cable in the event 
of a short circuit in the rig which would be a very big fuse, far bigger 
than your psu is rated to supply most likely.  Fuses and their holders are 
too slow and drop valuable volts along with the cable drop and connectors, 
which all add up to a poorer distortion figure on transmit.

David
G3UNA

 Hi, I am ready to apply 12v for the first time to my new K3. Should I have 
 a
 inline fuse on the DC to the K3? and if so what amp.
 Just don't look right not to have a fuse inline.

 Thanks
 Chris W7CTH

 
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 inline fuse

2010-08-12 Thread ab2tc

I completely agree with you. The inline fuses are there for mobile
installations where you have a direct connection to the car battery. On my
ICOM radios I have always shortened the power cable removing the inline fuse
in the process.

AB2TC - Knut


David Cutter wrote:
 
 You are much better off using the current limiting feature of your dc 
 supply.  A fuse is not fast enough to protect any electronic circuitry. 
 Strictly speaking a fuse in line is rated to protect the cable in the
 event 
 of a short circuit in the rig which would be a very big fuse, far bigger 
 than your psu is rated to supply most likely.  Fuses and their holders are 
 too slow and drop valuable volts along with the cable drop and connectors, 
 which all add up to a poorer distortion figure on transmit.
 
 David
 G3UNA
 snip
 

-- 
View this message in context: 
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-inline-fuse-tp5414371p5418061.html
Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 inline fuse

2010-08-12 Thread Mel Farrer
Follow the instructions and check the + terminal to - with an ohm meter for any 
shorts.  The problem you face is the transistor is the worlds fastest fuse and 
on initial turn on you are looking at a low current surge as the unit charges 
the supply and decoupling caps.  A full current rated fuse will not protect the 
PCB if you did something wrong, nor will current limit if set for the max 
current the K3 will draw on transmit.  

If you test the resistance first, the chances are you will be safe on initial 
power up.  Like one suggested using a current limiting PS set say at 3 amps, 
that will protect you adequately.  When the K3 comes alive, you can increase 
the current limit to operating conditions.  I hope this helps.

Mel

--- On Thu, 8/12/10, ab2tc ab...@arrl.net wrote:

From: ab2tc ab...@arrl.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 inline fuse
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Date: Thursday, August 12, 2010, 3:13 PM


I completely agree with you. The inline fuses are there for mobile
installations where you have a direct connection to the car battery. On my
ICOM radios I have always shortened the power cable removing the inline fuse
in the process.

AB2TC - Knut


David Cutter wrote:
 
 You are much better off using the current limiting feature of your dc 
 supply.  A fuse is not fast enough to protect any electronic circuitry. 
 Strictly speaking a fuse in line is rated to protect the cable in the
 event 
 of a short circuit in the rig which would be a very big fuse, far bigger 
 than your psu is rated to supply most likely.  Fuses and their holders are 
 too slow and drop valuable volts along with the cable drop and connectors, 
 which all add up to a poorer distortion figure on transmit.
 
 David
 G3UNA
 snip
 

-- 
View this message in context: 
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-inline-fuse-tp5414371p5418061.html
Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 inline fuse

2010-08-12 Thread Matt Zilmer
The best method is Wayne's suggestion from way back:

In both Neg and Pos leads, supply a fuseholder and fuse.  I use the
stubby fuses from Motorola @ 30A, you should use something like
that.  These are T-rated, meaning they're designed to open with a DC
load.  Don't use a fuse out of your home's fusebox...

General setup:
12V AGM Battery @ 110 AH, cabled to a set of panel-mounted MOT inline
fuse holders.  Each lead is covered by a 30A fuse.  The battery is
charged by solar power, two Siemens SR50 (50W) panels on the roof of
the shack.

Note: This recommendation is a little more permanent than what you're
probably looking for right now.  

If you're interested in this approach, I can probably get you the part
numbers you need.  MOT has a service center in IL, and you can phone
in your order.

73,
matt W6NIA

On Wed, 11 Aug 2010 16:32:12 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:

Hi, I am ready to apply 12v for the first time to my new K3. Should I have a 
inline fuse on the DC to the K3? and if so what amp.
Just don't look right not to have a fuse inline.

Thanks
Chris W7CTH



  
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 inline fuse

2010-08-12 Thread Tom W8JI
Positive lead fuses are a good idea.

Negative lead fuses never were a good idea unless the radio has a totally 
floating negative buss.

If the negative lead fuse to the radio opens for any reason all the negative 
lead current for the radio will flow through the negative lead of any 
accessories connected to the power supply.

They are a terrible idea for any system with the negative lead common to 
ports in and out of the radio, or to the chassis. You certainly won't catch 
me using one!The negative lead needs to be connected solidly to the power 
supply negative for a multitude of reasons, the most prominent of which is 
if the negative lead fuse to the radio opens you can blow up accessories or 
open ground traces including traces in the radio.

They are not even recommended in vehicles any longer in some countries 
because of the fire and damage hazard they create.

73 Tom

 In both Neg and Pos leads, supply a fuseholder and fuse.  I use the
 stubby fuses from Motorola @ 30A, you should use something like
 that.  These are T-rated, meaning they're designed to open with a DC
 load.  Don't use a fuse out of your home's fusebox...

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 inline fuse

2010-08-12 Thread Don Wilhelm
Tom,

You are absolutely correct.  Take a mobile situation - the radio's power 
ground is connected to the transceiver chassis ground, as is the coax 
shield, microphone shield and other stuff.  All that stuff can (and 
will) connect to the vehicle chassis at some point.  I know the coax 
will connect at the point where it attaches to the antenna.

Now imagine a situation where the negative lead fuse is open.  The 
vehicle chassis is still connected to the battery negative - so the 
radio gets it positive lead directly from the battery (since that fuse 
is still good), but the negative battery terminal voltage flows through 
the vehicle chassis to the point where the coax shield connects to the 
vehicle chassis (presumably at the antenna), and then follows the coax 
shield to the transceiver.  The transceiver still works, so you (the 
operator) are not aware that the negative fuse has opened, but the DC 
current paths will give rise to strange happenings.

Bottom line, follow Tom's advice and fuse only the positive lead, and in 
a mobile situation, take the negative voltage from the vehicle chassis 
close to the radio.

The fusing of the negative lead started when some were concerned about 
the vehicle's battery to engine block (or vehicle chassis) connection is 
broken, which could lead to massive starting motor currents being 
conducted from the coax ground at the mobile antenna, through the radio, 
and onto the battery negative terminal.  Yes, that situation is quite 
real, but can be circumvented by periodically checking the engine block 
to chassis grounding in the vehicle, as well as the battery negative 
connection to the vehicle chassis.

If the radio has an isolated (floating) negative connection (I believe 
only commercial mobile radios do that), then fusing of the negative lead 
is OK, but for most ham radios, the fusing of the negative lead can 
cause as much damage as the reasons given for inserting a fuse into the 
negative lead.  Take your pick.

73,
Don W3FPR

Tom W8JI wrote:
 Positive lead fuses are a good idea.

 Negative lead fuses never were a good idea unless the radio has a totally 
 floating negative buss.

 If the negative lead fuse to the radio opens for any reason all the negative 
 lead current for the radio will flow through the negative lead of any 
 accessories connected to the power supply.

 They are a terrible idea for any system with the negative lead common to 
 ports in and out of the radio, or to the chassis. You certainly won't catch 
 me using one!The negative lead needs to be connected solidly to the power 
 supply negative for a multitude of reasons, the most prominent of which is 
 if the negative lead fuse to the radio opens you can blow up accessories or 
 open ground traces including traces in the radio.

 They are not even recommended in vehicles any longer in some countries 
 because of the fire and damage hazard they create.

 73 Tom

   
 In both Neg and Pos leads, supply a fuseholder and fuse.  I use the
 stubby fuses from Motorola @ 30A, you should use something like
 that.  These are T-rated, meaning they're designed to open with a DC
 load.  Don't use a fuse out of your home's fusebox...
 

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 inline fuse

2010-08-11 Thread john
On 8/11/2010 6:32 PM, Chris Hembree wrote:
 Hi, I am ready to apply 12v for the first time to my new K3. Should I have a
 inline fuse on the DC to the K3? and if so what amp.
 Just don't look right not to have a fuse inline.

 Thanks
 Chris W7CTH




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If you have one, it probably would not hurt to do so.  I put one on mine 
just in case.
john
km5ps
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