RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
Ben, Not to nitpick, but optimizing graphics in an HTML page has an exact corollary to optimizing a flash movie. Using symbols, clips, pre-loading, bit depth, minimizing the number of bitmaps that are imported etc. All contribute to the swf file size. So it IS possible to create 2 very similar movies that load very differently and use resources differently. For my take, it's the bandwidth utilization after the UI is loaded (the initial flash movie) that shows the real promise. -mk -Original Message- From: Ben Johnson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 4:21 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? I would think any competent UI person would consider usability an inherent business requirement. So obviously, if the UI feels slow or klunky to the user than it isn't really usable. However, that doesn't mean that performance and bandwidth are a consideration. This thread started out comparing the bandwidth utilization of html based web applications vs. Flash applications. The statement was that the Flash application would use less bandwidth. So, let's assume that two Flash applications had a similar UI, but were implemented differently. The first UI used considerably less bandwidth than the second, but both used less bandwidth than their html equivalents. Additionally, let's assume that the first UI used less bandwidth because the Flash developer spent time trying to reduce the bandwidth usage. Matt, I think I fail to understand your point still. Can you give a concrete example? So far you've only given generalizations. Can you elaborate? For example, how was the first Flash movie made to use less bandwidth? When it comes to Flash, it's difficult to decrease the amount of bandwidth from one Flash movie to the next simply because it's all basic data. When you compare HTML pages, you can take out or optimize graphics. Also, I don't think I agree with your first statement entirely. You state that: if the UI feels slow or klunky to the user than it isn't really usable. However, that doesn't mean that performance and bandwidth are a consideration. While I believe there are many considerations for UI, I don't know how you could say that performance and bandwidth simply aren't a consideration. Perhaps they are less significant at times, but rarely are they not a consideration. Ben Johnson __ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
Sean A Corfield wrote: Ah, yes, I realize that now. The multicast stuff he's talking about is pretty hardware specific... No, I wouldn't expect FlashCom to handle that per se (but it's very bandwidth-efficient when broadcasting video...). Not really hardware specific, it is just a part of the set of protocols that is commonly refered to as IP. Most IP routers and switches from Cisco, HP etc. support it (which isn't that strange, multicast is old). But apart from FlashCom supporting it, there is also the matter of Flash supporting it (I put in the enhancement request some months ago). Jochem __ Your ad could be here. Monies from ads go to support these lists and provide more resources for the community. http://www.fusionauthority.com/ads.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
You can use external editors to edit your actionscript code, and then include it via the include directive: #include mycode.as personally, i use EditPlus for most of my ActionScript code development. It has color coding syntax variable. I have also been using Dreamweaver MX more and more lately, as it has color coding, a reference panel, and code hinting built in. do you have any suggestions for improving the code editing environment within Flash MX, or would you prefer tighter integration with external editors? mike chambers [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Jon Hall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 7:53 PM Unfortunately the Flash UI is absolutely the most horrendous code editing environment ever dreamed up. Worse than DW MX even g, so I can't really give it a fair shake because I hate the environment so much. Can someone tell me who's brilliant idea it was to focus the drawing area as soon as the application is refocused? Even if the cursor is focused on the code editing area in advanced mode alt-tab away and back, and you have to use the mouse again. Grr. __ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
I think that Flash components addresses this issue to an extent. For example, at Flash forward, we built a simple application that loaded data from data base and displayed it in a data grid component. here is the code it took to display the data once it was loaded: dataGrid.setDataProvider(data); the rest of the code was just initialization code that is the same for every movie using Flash Remoting. Oh yeah, we got the data from a simple coldfusion component. also, actionscript is at its core, just javascript, with additional Flash specific APIs. however, having said that, yes, there are ways we can improve the learning curve. i am always open to any suggestions. mike chambers [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Todd [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 7:36 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? My only issue with the Rich Client thing is... well... there's only one branden hall in the world and Mr. Watts, I'm sure you're doing a good job keeping him busy. Seriously, to truly be a good developer into Flash Remoting, I think we'd have to have that much knowledge, because as it stands... getting Data into Flash is easy, but I have a feeling a lot of CF developers (like myself) are going to scratch their heads and go, Now what? Ideally, this would be great if your business was split equally between CF / Flash MX people and you had a great team of both that could learn from each other. My problem is, that... at the company I work for, only the partners get to play with Flash and even then, they're hacks and... don't even know that Flash MX is out yet (nor the power they can do with it). Sigh... did I mention I'm looking for a new job? ;) ~Todd At 07:30 PM 8/1/2002 -0400, you wrote: Is it me, or has anyone else noticed there's a REALLY strong push for Flash lately at all the CFUGs and conferences?? Is there any particular reason for this? Sure. MM sells CF, MM sells Flash, MM would like more money! On a more serious note, though, I think that MM's strategy is to push developers into what you might call rich client applications. There are a lot of limitations in what you can do with an HTML GUI. Flash goes far beyond those limitations, allowing you to build applications that provide significantly more functionality. The reason that web applications are popular isn't because of the great HTML interface - it's probably close to as bad an interface as possible. So, the logical next step is to provide web-based applications with better interfaces. This was the original promise of Java, if you remember back a few years. Flash is a tool which can fulfill that promise. I like Flash - don't get me wrong. But I view it as a GUI frill that I doubt I can sell to my clients who want a functional business application. Anyone here can tell me why/how I could sell them Flash which would be over and above CF development? It's a common programmers' mistake to think about interfaces as a frill. For an end-user, the interface is ALL THERE IS. Good interface design is necessary for a good application. HTML interfaces may be passable, but I wouldn't consider them good - you'd really hate to use every function on your computer through such an interface, wouldn't you? So, to counteract this misunderstanding, you might show functional business applications written in Flash to your clients. In such an application, you'll see things that would be impractical or impossible in HTML - using Flash to add functionality, instead of skip intro glitter. These applications are out there. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ voice: (202) 797-5496 fax: (202) 797-5444 __ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
actually, flash applications can be very small, and they stream, thus making them idea for low bandwidth connections. that doesn't mean that all flash movies will be small, but for application interfaces, they can be if constructed properly. mike chambers [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Nathaniel Horwitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 7:23 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? I'm assuming in the future when everyone has DSL or Cable. Flash is a viable client side application you can push to your clients since it works well with dynamic languages such as ColdFusion. Nathaniel -Original Message- From: Bonnie E. Betts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 7:16 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? Is it me, or has anyone else noticed there's a REALLY strong push for = Flash lately at all the CFUGs and conferences?? Is there any particular = reason for this? I like Flash - don't get me wrong. But I view it as a GUI frill that I = doubt I can sell to my clients who want a functional business = application. Anyone here can tell me why/how I could sell them Flash = which would be over and above CF development? Bonnie E. Betts [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.bettsIT.com 703.508.9766 __ This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting. FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
Quoting Mike Chambers [EMAIL PROTECTED]: do you have any suggestions for improving the code editing environment within Flash MX, or would you prefer tighter integration with external editors? mike chambers [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'd REALLY like to see integration within the dreamweaver/homesite+ suite for ActionScript. As a vetran CF'er but a newbie to ActionScript and Flash MX, I find the editor in Flash MX lacking. I use CF Studio for everything - CF, PHP, Perl, JavaScript. I'd like to use it for ActionScript as well. Dave __ Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
Improve the editor, please! And/or add code hinting etc. to CF Studio. Trying to work in the Flash code editor to do simple debugging is annoying. I think someone else mentioned the idea that Flash has a graphic designer's feel to it, and that is the feeling that I get also. If the editor were a real editor, and if it had improved abilities to move around in the code -- to find the code that was attached to a button without drilling down through multiple movies -- then it might start to have a developer's feel to it. Simple things can make it so much less annoying, like when I Alt-Tab to another window and then Alt-Tab back to Flash, why isn't the cursor still flashing right where I left it? Of course, don't take my rants too seriously ... I'm learning it for one, maybe two projects for a client, then posting the 'no flash allowed' sign on the front door. :) Dan -Original Message- From: Mike Chambers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 9:24 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? You can use external editors to edit your actionscript code, and then include it via the include directive: #include mycode.as personally, i use EditPlus for most of my ActionScript code development. It has color coding syntax variable. I have also been using Dreamweaver MX more and more lately, as it has color coding, a reference panel, and code hinting built in. do you have any suggestions for improving the code editing environment within Flash MX, or would you prefer tighter integration with external editors? mike chambers [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Jon Hall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 7:53 PM Unfortunately the Flash UI is absolutely the most horrendous code editing environment ever dreamed up. Worse than DW MX even g, so I can't really give it a fair shake because I hate the environment so much. Can someone tell me who's brilliant idea it was to focus the drawing area as soon as the application is refocused? Even if the cursor is focused on the code editing area in advanced mode alt-tab away and back, and you have to use the mouse again. Grr. __ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
Dreaweaver does have the following ActionScript support: 1. code hinting 2. color coding plus there is an extensions that brings the ActionScript reference panel into DWMX. are you look for something tighter than that? mike chambers [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 12:30 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? Quoting Mike Chambers [EMAIL PROTECTED]: do you have any suggestions for improving the code editing environment within Flash MX, or would you prefer tighter integration with external editors? mike chambers [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'd REALLY like to see integration within the dreamweaver/homesite+ suite for ActionScript. As a vetran CF'er but a newbie to ActionScript and Flash MX, I find the editor in Flash MX lacking. I use CF Studio for everything - CF, PHP, Perl, JavaScript. I'd like to use it for ActionScript as well. Dave __ Your ad could be here. Monies from ads go to support these lists and provide more resources for the community. http://www.fusionauthority.com/ads.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
Quoting Mike Chambers [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Dreaweaver does have the following ActionScript support: 1. code hinting 2. color coding plus there is an extensions that brings the ActionScript reference panel into DWMX. are you look for something tighter than that? Well, it'll be nice then, when we get our Studio MX packages then. Something to look forward to . . . 8-) Dave __ This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting. FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
however, having said that, yes, there are ways we can improve the learning curve. i am always open to any suggestions. I think better documentation would definitely help. I think that's one area taht MACR has always lagged behind in. The Flash documentation doesn't help much beyond what I could figure out just by playing with Flash. Also, there's no documentation on any of the additional classes such as DataProvider, FUIComponent, etc. Although it's not necessary to know the nitty-gritty behind them, I think it makes for a better Flash developer. True, reading through the code is possible, but it's hardly commented. Also, something else that Flash is in desperate need of is a good framework. Pet Market is not what I would call good either. It does weird stuff, has a strange DB setup (imho), has no real error handling, etc. I don't want to sound like I think Flash is a horrible way to make applications... I think it's great actually. There just needs to be a better or even more standard way to build Flash apps. Ben Johnson __ This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting. FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
Mike, Can you post the URL for this extension? Thanks *** James Johnson SMB-Studios Innovative Online Learning for Spirit, Mind and Body www.smb-studios.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Mike Chambers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 9:44 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? Dreaweaver does have the following ActionScript support: 1. code hinting 2. color coding plus there is an extensions that brings the ActionScript reference panel into DWMX. are you look for something tighter than that? mike chambers [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 12:30 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? Quoting Mike Chambers [EMAIL PROTECTED]: do you have any suggestions for improving the code editing environment within Flash MX, or would you prefer tighter integration with external editors? mike chambers [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'd REALLY like to see integration within the dreamweaver/homesite+ suite for ActionScript. As a vetran CF'er but a newbie to ActionScript and Flash MX, I find the editor in Flash MX lacking. I use CF Studio for everything - CF, PHP, Perl, JavaScript. I'd like to use it for ActionScript as well. Dave __ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
I would vote for tighter integration...I never have enough room to edit within FlashMX (and I work at high res)...I can float the AS window but then I might as well pop over to dwmx. Stace -Original Message- From: Mike Chambers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 12:24 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? You can use external editors to edit your actionscript code, and then include it via the include directive: #include mycode.as personally, i use EditPlus for most of my ActionScript code development. It has color coding syntax variable. I have also been using Dreamweaver MX more and more lately, as it has color coding, a reference panel, and code hinting built in. do you have any suggestions for improving the code editing environment within Flash MX, or would you prefer tighter integration with external editors? mike chambers [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Jon Hall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 7:53 PM Unfortunately the Flash UI is absolutely the most horrendous code editing environment ever dreamed up. Worse than DW MX even g, so I can't really give it a fair shake because I hate the environment so much. Can someone tell me who's brilliant idea it was to focus the drawing area as soon as the application is refocused? Even if the cursor is focused on the code editing area in advanced mode alt-tab away and back, and you have to use the mouse again. Grr. __ Your ad could be here. Monies from ads go to support these lists and provide more resources for the community. http://www.fusionauthority.com/ads.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
The only beef I have coming from a programming background is that I have no way of knowing what the heck is going on in the Flash source unless I start opening everything up and work my way through flags and notes crammed in the timeline... Maybe just another type of view? Stace -Original Message- From: Mike Chambers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 12:24 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? I think that Flash components addresses this issue to an extent. For example, at Flash forward, we built a simple application that loaded data from data base and displayed it in a data grid component. here is the code it took to display the data once it was loaded: dataGrid.setDataProvider(data); the rest of the code was just initialization code that is the same for every movie using Flash Remoting. Oh yeah, we got the data from a simple coldfusion component. also, actionscript is at its core, just javascript, with additional Flash specific APIs. however, having said that, yes, there are ways we can improve the learning curve. i am always open to any suggestions. mike chambers [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Todd [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 7:36 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? My only issue with the Rich Client thing is... well... there's only one branden hall in the world and Mr. Watts, I'm sure you're doing a good job keeping him busy. Seriously, to truly be a good developer into Flash Remoting, I think we'd have to have that much knowledge, because as it stands... getting Data into Flash is easy, but I have a feeling a lot of CF developers (like myself) are going to scratch their heads and go, Now what? Ideally, this would be great if your business was split equally between CF / Flash MX people and you had a great team of both that could learn from each other. My problem is, that... at the company I work for, only the partners get to play with Flash and even then, they're hacks and... don't even know that Flash MX is out yet (nor the power they can do with it). Sigh... did I mention I'm looking for a new job? ;) ~Todd At 07:30 PM 8/1/2002 -0400, you wrote: Is it me, or has anyone else noticed there's a REALLY strong push for Flash lately at all the CFUGs and conferences?? Is there any particular reason for this? Sure. MM sells CF, MM sells Flash, MM would like more money! On a more serious note, though, I think that MM's strategy is to push developers into what you might call rich client applications. There are a lot of limitations in what you can do with an HTML GUI. Flash goes far beyond those limitations, allowing you to build applications that provide significantly more functionality. The reason that web applications are popular isn't because of the great HTML interface - it's probably close to as bad an interface as possible. So, the logical next step is to provide web-based applications with better interfaces. This was the original promise of Java, if you remember back a few years. Flash is a tool which can fulfill that promise. I like Flash - don't get me wrong. But I view it as a GUI frill that I doubt I can sell to my clients who want a functional business application. Anyone here can tell me why/how I could sell them Flash which would be over and above CF development? It's a common programmers' mistake to think about interfaces as a frill. For an end-user, the interface is ALL THERE IS. Good interface design is necessary for a good application. HTML interfaces may be passable, but I wouldn't consider them good - you'd really hate to use every function on your computer through such an interface, wouldn't you? So, to counteract this misunderstanding, you might show functional business applications written in Flash to your clients. In such an application, you'll see things that would be impractical or impossible in HTML - using Flash to add functionality, instead of skip intro glitter. These applications are out there. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ voice: (202) 797-5496 fax: (202) 797-5444 __ This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting. FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
Cool I didn't know that...now all we need are some performance tweaks and I'll be raring to go. :) -Original Message- From: Mike Chambers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 12:44 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? Dreaweaver does have the following ActionScript support: 1. code hinting 2. color coding plus there is an extensions that brings the ActionScript reference panel into DWMX. are you look for something tighter than that? mike chambers [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 12:30 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? Quoting Mike Chambers [EMAIL PROTECTED]: do you have any suggestions for improving the code editing environment within Flash MX, or would you prefer tighter integration with external editors? mike chambers [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'd REALLY like to see integration within the dreamweaver/homesite+ suite for ActionScript. As a vetran CF'er but a newbie to ActionScript and Flash MX, I find the editor in Flash MX lacking. I use CF Studio for everything - CF, PHP, Perl, JavaScript. I'd like to use it for ActionScript as well. Dave __ Your ad could be here. Monies from ads go to support these lists and provide more resources for the community. http://www.fusionauthority.com/ads.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
I didn't make any blanket statement in regard to Flash and bandwidth. I have stated over and over again that it depends on the application. My statement was in reference to the blanket statement made earlier that Flash saved bandwidth. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Wille, Paul [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 6:39 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? Negative. A GOOD Flash developer is very mindful of bandwidth. Perhaps you should check with the award winning Flash developer you hired. I am not trying to say to anyone that Flash is the end-all, be-all of web development. Same with ColdFusion MX. What I AM saying, though, is that the proof is oh-so-simple: when only transmitting data rather than UI components + data, its obvious to see which will require less bandwidth. Our Flash developers are very mindful of size/download time of their flash components, regardless of size or complexity. I think that both you and I can agree that Flash, when appropriated correctly, CAN save bandwidth. The converse holds true as well. I just don't appreciate the blanket implication that Flash ALWAYS is more bandwidth intensive. Let's all remember that this is an open forum, we all have the place to hold our respective opinions, and respect others as well. Regards, --Paul Paul W. Wille [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer --- ISITE Design, Inc. -- Senior Programmer www.isitedesign.com 615 SW Broadway, Suite 200 Portland, OR 97205 503.221.9860 x110 503.221.9865 -Original Message- From: Matt Liotta [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thu 8/1/2002 4:36 PM To: CF-Talk Cc: Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? That is absolutely not true. A good Flash developer will create a UI that meets the business requirements of the application and allows a user to easily make use of it. That may or may not use more bandwidth than an html based application with the same business requirements. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Wille, Paul [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 5:33 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? And you are making assumptions as well here. A *GOOD* Flash developer would design the Flash interface to be lightweight, preload once (or as minimal as possible), and minimize the size of his/her Flash movies. No different is the argument that CFML is slow. Those of us that know CFML know that any poor developer can write bad CFML that will inherently be slow. I fail to understand your point of view on this. I think you can see where I am coming from. Paul W. Wille [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer --- ISITE Design, Inc. -- Senior Programmer www.isitedesign.com 615 SW Broadway, Suite 200 Portland, OR 97205 503.221.9860 x110 503.221.9865 -Original Message- From: Matt Liotta [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 5:26 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? If your whole site is in Flash it loads once. The Flash movie is equal to one or two rich HTML pages in size. Perform more than two functions on your site and you're then passing less data than you would via HTML. That's the simplified version of how it works. I doubt Talkers really cares more about it than that, unless they're actually building an app. Then it's worth it to go into the specifics. You are making assumptions. Flash gives you the ability to do things you couldn't do before in html, which could required higher bandwidth than the equivalent application using html. While the extra bandwidth may be worth it for a better experience, the extra bandwidth is still there. Flash applications do not inherently save bandwidth. -Matt
RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
You're taking my comments out of context. My developer is perfectly capable of architecting a Flash application to save bandwidth. That is what is important to me though. What is important to me is meeting the business requirements of an application with a very good UI. If that requires more bandwidth than so be it. Bandwidth is cheap; support costs from bad UIs are expensive. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Jason Miller [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 10:09 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? sorry - don't want to start a bicker - but on this one -I personally wouldn't higher a flash developer that could not design a UI that meets business requirements while being a little light and bandwidth conscious. no ill intentions. jay miller Matt Liotta wrote: That is absolutely not true. A good Flash developer will create a UI that meets the business requirements of the application and allows a user to easily make use of it. That may or may not use more bandwidth than an html based application with the same business requirements. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Wille, Paul [ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 5:33 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? And you are making assumptions as well here. A *GOOD* Flash developer would design the Flash interface to be lightweight, preload once (or as minimal as possible), and minimize the size of his/her Flash movies. No different is the argument that CFML is slow. Those of us that know CFML know that any poor developer can write bad CFML that will inherently be slow. I fail to understand your point of view on this. I think you can see where I am coming from. Paul W. Wille[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer --- ISITE Design, Inc. -- Senior Programmer www.isitedesign.com http://www.isitedesign.com 615 SW Broadway, Suite 200 Portland, OR 97205 503.221.9860 x110 503.221.9865 -Original Message- From: Matt Liotta [ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 5:26 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? If your whole site is in Flash it loads once. The Flash movie is equal to one or two rich HTML pages in size. Perform more than two functions on your site and you're then passing less data than you would via HTML. That's the simplified version of how it works. I doubt Talkers really cares more about it than that, unless they're actually building an app. Then it's worth it to go into the specifics. You are making assumptions. Flash gives you the ability to do things you couldn't do before in html, which could required higher bandwidth than the equivalent application using html. While the extra bandwidth may be worth it for a better experience, the extra bandwidth is still there. Flash applications do not inherently save bandwidth. -Matt __ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
You apparently aren't spending enough time with the marketing people. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Sean A Corfield [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 9:07 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? On Thursday, August 1, 2002, at 04:59 , Matt Liotta wrote: MM has proposed doing away with html entirely for a Flash front-end. In those cases I don't see the bandwidth reduction at all. We have not proposed any such thing! Good grief! If you're displaying mostly text documents to people, HTML is a good model: display document, user reads it, clicks some navigation, gets next 'page'. On the other hand, if the user is mostly navigating / exploring / 'doing' then Flash makes more sense: hit a page, load Flash movie, user interacts with movie until then have finished or they want to read a text document, at which point you switch to HTML. If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwood __ Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
If the business requirements do not include performance or bandwidth considerations than they shouldn't be an issue. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Sean A Corfield [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 8:43 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? On Thursday, August 1, 2002, at 05:36 , Matt Liotta wrote: That is absolutely not true. A good Flash developer will create a UI that meets the business requirements of the application and allows a user to easily make use of it. That may or may not use more bandwidth than an html based application with the same business requirements. That's the definition of a good Flash *5* developer. The definition of a good Flash *MX* developer includes the Rich Internet Application considerations of performance and bandwidth. In the same way that a good ColdFusion *MX* developer will have a slightly different skillset and focus to a good ColdFusion *5* developer (as many of us are finding out!). Sean A Corfield -- http://www.corfield.org/blog/ If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwood __ Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
On Friday, August 2, 2002, at 12:17 , Matt Liotta wrote: If the business requirements do not include performance or bandwidth considerations than they shouldn't be an issue. If the business requirements do not include performance or bandwidth considerations then someone (the business analyst or whatever you want to call them) isn't doing their job! Sure, business people often don't think about explicitly adding these things into their requirements, but they usually *assume* that you will deliver a system that is 'fast enough'. It's much better to get bounds on that sort of things up front that to second-guess the business user and deliver a great system only for them to bitch about it being slow... Sean A Corfield -- http://www.corfield.org/blog/ If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwood __ Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
Matt you're only going to instigate another testosterone flinging contest here... You're an intelligent lad, how about taking it offlist. Cheers, Stace -Original Message- From: Matt Liotta [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 3:18 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? You apparently aren't spending enough time with the marketing people. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Sean A Corfield [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 9:07 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? On Thursday, August 1, 2002, at 04:59 , Matt Liotta wrote: MM has proposed doing away with html entirely for a Flash front-end. In those cases I don't see the bandwidth reduction at all. We have not proposed any such thing! Good grief! If you're displaying mostly text documents to people, HTML is a good model: display document, user reads it, clicks some navigation, gets next 'page'. On the other hand, if the user is mostly navigating / exploring / 'doing' then Flash makes more sense: hit a page, load Flash movie, user interacts with movie until then have finished or they want to read a text document, at which point you switch to HTML. If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwood __ This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting. FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
Matt, Once again, you are making an issue on CF-Talk a personal one. Keep this professional, and lay off the drive to come out on top with this one. It really degrades the integrity of this list. Bottom line, if **ANYONE** in your shop or mine is not mindful of bandwidth considerations REGARDLESS OF THEIR ROLE, it hurts the overall outcome of the web application. Anyone who works in this field knows that. No one is making gross generalizations of Flash, nor HTML, nor DHTML. Understand the context in which people respond to your posts. You come across strong, you will get strong responses. That said, I am finished with this thread. No need to let this one go on any further. I'm tired of the mudslinging. --Paul Paul W. Wille [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer --- ISITE Design, Inc. -- Senior Programmer www.isitedesign.com 615 SW Broadway, Suite 200 Portland, OR 97205 503.221.9860 x110 503.221.9865 -Original Message- From: Matt Liotta [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 12:07 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? I didn't make any blanket statement in regard to Flash and bandwidth. I have stated over and over again that it depends on the application. My statement was in reference to the blanket statement made earlier that Flash saved bandwidth. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Wille, Paul [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 6:39 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? Negative. A GOOD Flash developer is very mindful of bandwidth. Perhaps you should check with the award winning Flash developer you hired. I am not trying to say to anyone that Flash is the end-all, be-all of web development. Same with ColdFusion MX. What I AM saying, though, is that the proof is oh-so-simple: when only transmitting data rather than UI components + data, its obvious to see which will require less bandwidth. Our Flash developers are very mindful of size/download time of their flash components, regardless of size or complexity. I think that both you and I can agree that Flash, when appropriated correctly, CAN save bandwidth. The converse holds true as well. I just don't appreciate the blanket implication that Flash ALWAYS is more bandwidth intensive. Let's all remember that this is an open forum, we all have the place to hold our respective opinions, and respect others as well. Regards, --Paul Paul W. Wille [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer --- ISITE Design, Inc. -- Senior Programmer www.isitedesign.com 615 SW Broadway, Suite 200 Portland, OR 97205 503.221.9860 x110 503.221.9865 -Original Message- From: Matt Liotta [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thu 8/1/2002 4:36 PM To: CF-Talk Cc: Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? That is absolutely not true. A good Flash developer will create a UI that meets the business requirements of the application and allows a user to easily make use of it. That may or may not use more bandwidth than an html based application with the same business requirements. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Wille, Paul [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 5:33 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? And you are making assumptions as well here. A *GOOD* Flash developer would design the Flash interface to be lightweight, preload once (or as minimal as possible), and minimize the size of his/her Flash movies. No different is the argument that CFML is slow. Those of us that know CFML know that any poor developer can write bad CFML that will inherently be slow. I fail to understand your point of view on this. I think you can see where I am coming from. Paul W. Wille [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer --- ISITE Design, Inc. -- Senior Programmer www.isitedesign.com 615 SW Broadway, Suite 200
RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
I would think any competent UI person would consider usability an inherent business requirement. So obviously, if the UI feels slow or klunky to the user than it isn't really usable. However, that doesn't mean that performance and bandwidth are a consideration. This thread started out comparing the bandwidth utilization of html based web applications vs. Flash applications. The statement was that the Flash application would use less bandwidth. So, let's assume that two Flash applications had a similar UI, but were implemented differently. The first UI used considerably less bandwidth than the second, but both used less bandwidth than their html equivalents. Additionally, let's assume that the first UI used less bandwidth because the Flash developer spent time trying to reduce the bandwidth usage. With all that in mind I ask you the following. If both UIs use an acceptable amount of bandwidth, was it as waste of developer time to attempt to solve a business problem that wasn't there? Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Sean A Corfield [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 12:40 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? On Friday, August 2, 2002, at 12:17 , Matt Liotta wrote: If the business requirements do not include performance or bandwidth considerations than they shouldn't be an issue. If the business requirements do not include performance or bandwidth considerations then someone (the business analyst or whatever you want to call them) isn't doing their job! Sure, business people often don't think about explicitly adding these things into their requirements, but they usually *assume* that you will deliver a system that is 'fast enough'. It's much better to get bounds on that sort of things up front that to second-guess the business user and deliver a great system only for them to bitch about it being slow... Sean A Corfield -- http://www.corfield.org/blog/ If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwood __ Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
I would think any competent UI person would consider usability an inherent business requirement. So obviously, if the UI feels slow or klunky to the user than it isn't really usable. However, that doesn't mean that performance and bandwidth are a consideration. This thread started out comparing the bandwidth utilization of html based web applications vs. Flash applications. The statement was that the Flash application would use less bandwidth. So, let's assume that two Flash applications had a similar UI, but were implemented differently. The first UI used considerably less bandwidth than the second, but both used less bandwidth than their html equivalents. Additionally, let's assume that the first UI used less bandwidth because the Flash developer spent time trying to reduce the bandwidth usage. Matt, I think I fail to understand your point still. Can you give a concrete example? So far you've only given generalizations. Can you elaborate? For example, how was the first Flash movie made to use less bandwidth? When it comes to Flash, it's difficult to decrease the amount of bandwidth from one Flash movie to the next simply because it's all basic data. When you compare HTML pages, you can take out or optimize graphics. Also, I don't think I agree with your first statement entirely. You state that: if the UI feels slow or klunky to the user than it isn't really usable. However, that doesn't mean that performance and bandwidth are a consideration. While I believe there are many considerations for UI, I don't know how you could say that performance and bandwidth simply aren't a consideration. Perhaps they are less significant at times, but rarely are they not a consideration. Ben Johnson __ This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting. FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
I think I fail to understand your point still. Can you give a concrete example? So far you've only given generalizations. Can you elaborate? For example, how was the first Flash movie made to use less bandwidth? When it comes to Flash, it's difficult to decrease the amount of bandwidth from one Flash movie to the next simply because it's all basic data. When you compare HTML pages, you can take out or optimize graphics. For example, you could have a Flash movie that requested a list of cities based on a chosen state. In one case, you might request the list of cities each time a user click on state. In another case, you might cache the list of cities the first time the user clicks on a given state so that you wouldn't have to rerequest the same data again. The later example would have bandwidth, but it required additionally programming on the part of the developer. My point is that while it is often possible to reduce the amount of bandwidth -- like in the above example -- there may not be a business reason to do so. It may simply cost more money to spend the extra development time than to use more bandwidth. While I believe there are many considerations for UI, I don't know how you could say that performance and bandwidth simply aren't a consideration. Perhaps they are less significant at times, but rarely are they not a consideration. I think there is a certain threshold where they simply do not matter. For example, as long as it is fast enough I don't care if I can make it faster. -Matt __ This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting. FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
Are you guys beating a dead horse just because Matt was riding it? If you are developing HTML for an Intranet do you stop and worry about the 10k graphic files and try to get them down to 3k? If the UI works, it works. If you are developing for the web, or have users of your Intranet coming in over 28.8, then you worry about it. Flash has to be similar (NOT a Flash person here). Matt's point is that a good developer knows when to worry about the bandwidth and when not to, but above all else is that the app meet the client's needs ... if speed over a 28.8 is required, then ya better skinny it down. Dan -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 2:21 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? I would think any competent UI person would consider usability an inherent business requirement. So obviously, if the UI feels slow or klunky to the user than it isn't really usable. However, that doesn't mean that performance and bandwidth are a consideration. This thread started out comparing the bandwidth utilization of html based web applications vs. Flash applications. The statement was that the Flash application would use less bandwidth. So, let's assume that two Flash applications had a similar UI, but were implemented differently. The first UI used considerably less bandwidth than the second, but both used less bandwidth than their html equivalents. Additionally, let's assume that the first UI used less bandwidth because the Flash developer spent time trying to reduce the bandwidth usage. Matt, I think I fail to understand your point still. Can you give a concrete example? So far you've only given generalizations. Can you elaborate? For example, how was the first Flash movie made to use less bandwidth? When it comes to Flash, it's difficult to decrease the amount of bandwidth from one Flash movie to the next simply because it's all basic data. When you compare HTML pages, you can take out or optimize graphics. Also, I don't think I agree with your first statement entirely. You state that: if the UI feels slow or klunky to the user than it isn't really usable. However, that doesn't mean that performance and bandwidth are a consideration. While I believe there are many considerations for UI, I don't know how you could say that performance and bandwidth simply aren't a consideration. Perhaps they are less significant at times, but rarely are they not a consideration. Ben Johnson __ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
On Friday, August 2, 2002, at 02:37 PM, Matt Liotta wrote: I think there is a certain threshold where they simply do not matter. For example, as long as it is fast enough I don't care if I can make it faster. Like the old story: An engineer is placed on one side of a room and an attractive person of the opposite sex on the other side. With each movement, the engineer can halve the distance between them. Can the engineer ever reach the other person? The engineer responds, it doesn't matter! I can get close enough! Dick %-) __ This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting. FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Forking (Re: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?)
When you change the topic of conversation of a thread, please change the subject line as well. This will help people know what's going on. This will also help them read the archives as this thread is already over 100 posts long (not a record, but we're not shooting for one). Please remember to fork messages and stay on topic for this tech list. Thank you Michael Dinowitz Master of the House of Fusion http://www.houseoffusion.com __ Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
I think Flash Remoting has some pretty powerful advantages, but... I don't think they have pushing Flash anymore than they already have been for years. I think people will slowly start to come out with some powerful Flash Remoting (aka Rich Clients) that will blow away some of the regular apps being built. It'll take some time, but ... *shrugs* ~Todd At 07:15 PM 8/1/2002 -0700, you wrote: Is it me, or has anyone else noticed there's a REALLY strong push for = Flash lately at all the CFUGs and conferences?? Is there any particular = reason for this? I like Flash - don't get me wrong. But I view it as a GUI frill that I = doubt I can sell to my clients who want a functional business = application. Anyone here can tell me why/how I could sell them Flash = which would be over and above CF development? Bonnie E. Betts Todd Rafferty ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.web-rat.com/ Team Macromedia Volunteer for ColdFusion http://www.macromedia.com/support/forums/team_macromedia/ Moderator @ FlashCFM.com - http://www.flashCFM.com/ Back-end Moderator @ Ultrashock.com - http://www.ultrashock.com/ __ Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
I'm assuming in the future when everyone has DSL or Cable. Flash is a viable client side application you can push to your clients since it works well with dynamic languages such as ColdFusion. Nathaniel -Original Message- From: Bonnie E. Betts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 7:16 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? Is it me, or has anyone else noticed there's a REALLY strong push for = Flash lately at all the CFUGs and conferences?? Is there any particular = reason for this? I like Flash - don't get me wrong. But I view it as a GUI frill that I = doubt I can sell to my clients who want a functional business = application. Anyone here can tell me why/how I could sell them Flash = which would be over and above CF development? Bonnie E. Betts [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.bettsIT.com 703.508.9766 __ Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
oi Bonnie!! I don't think the push is to be over and above coldfusion.but to compliment it. It seems their biggest push is to get away from the skip intro stereotype of flash, but to show it can be used for web application..with a pretty front end. - Critz Macromedia Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer CFX_ChannelOP Network=Efnet Channel=ColdFusion Thursday, August 1, 2002, 10:15:36 PM, you wrote: BEB Is it me, or has anyone else noticed there's a REALLY strong push for = BEB Flash lately at all the CFUGs and conferences?? Is there any particular = BEB reason for this? BEB I like Flash - don't get me wrong. But I view it as a GUI frill that I = BEB doubt I can sell to my clients who want a functional business = BEB application. Anyone here can tell me why/how I could sell them Flash = BEB which would be over and above CF development? BEB Bonnie E. Betts BEB [EMAIL PROTECTED] BEB www.bettsIT.com BEB 703.508.9766 BEB __ This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting. FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
I'll admit I'm pretty much a brain washed MM Partner, but I'd say they're pushing Flash for a number of reasons. 1) You can build a full web application with it now via Flash Remoting. VERY easily I might add. 2) It isn't just for movies and intros, BUT the public still thinks it is, we as developers are ahead of the public in what we see coming out on the web. The more MM educates people that Flash isn't just movies, the better. That's what I see them doing now. Have you ever seen an post on Slashdot about Flash. All those guys says is skip intro this, skip intro that. They don't even know what's possible since MX came out, and it's been four months. 3) Server load, if you build an application with Flash, the amount of data that needs to be pushed back and forth between a client and server can be greatly reduced, which can mean MAJOR bandwidth/transfer cost reductions to your client. 4) It's a universal component. People can view your application on windows, mac or the right phone without worrying about CSS and JS issues, etc... I'll end it at that, but I'd say number two is the most important reason. t ** Tyler M. Fitch Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer ISITE Design, Inc. 615 SW Broadway Ste. 200 Portland, OR 97205 503.221.9860 ext. 111 http://isitedesign.com ** -Original Message- From: Bonnie E. Betts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 7:16 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? Is it me, or has anyone else noticed there's a REALLY strong push for = Flash lately at all the CFUGs and conferences?? Is there any particular = reason for this? I like Flash - don't get me wrong. But I view it as a GUI frill that I = doubt I can sell to my clients who want a functional business = application. Anyone here can tell me why/how I could sell them Flash = which would be over and above CF development? Bonnie E. Betts [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.bettsIT.com 703.508.9766 __ Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
Is it me, or has anyone else noticed there's a REALLY strong push for Flash lately at all the CFUGs and conferences?? Is there any particular reason for this? Sure. MM sells CF, MM sells Flash, MM would like more money! On a more serious note, though, I think that MM's strategy is to push developers into what you might call rich client applications. There are a lot of limitations in what you can do with an HTML GUI. Flash goes far beyond those limitations, allowing you to build applications that provide significantly more functionality. The reason that web applications are popular isn't because of the great HTML interface - it's probably close to as bad an interface as possible. So, the logical next step is to provide web-based applications with better interfaces. This was the original promise of Java, if you remember back a few years. Flash is a tool which can fulfill that promise. I like Flash - don't get me wrong. But I view it as a GUI frill that I doubt I can sell to my clients who want a functional business application. Anyone here can tell me why/how I could sell them Flash which would be over and above CF development? It's a common programmers' mistake to think about interfaces as a frill. For an end-user, the interface is ALL THERE IS. Good interface design is necessary for a good application. HTML interfaces may be passable, but I wouldn't consider them good - you'd really hate to use every function on your computer through such an interface, wouldn't you? So, to counteract this misunderstanding, you might show functional business applications written in Flash to your clients. In such an application, you'll see things that would be impractical or impossible in HTML - using Flash to add functionality, instead of skip intro glitter. These applications are out there. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ voice: (202) 797-5496 fax: (202) 797-5444 __ Your ad could be here. Monies from ads go to support these lists and provide more resources for the community. http://www.fusionauthority.com/ads.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
To me it's not a matter of selling them ColdFusion or selling them Flash. You sell them an application. Whether it uses HTML or Flash as the interface is a detail. Our company is about to rebuild a CMS, and we'll be switching from dHTML to Flash for the trickier parts of the interface (e.g. drag and drop pages, building trees, etc). It's just easier for us and more reliable. -Original Message- From: Bonnie E. Betts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, 2 August 2002 2:16 p.m. To: CF-Talk Subject: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? Is it me, or has anyone else noticed there's a REALLY strong push for = Flash lately at all the CFUGs and conferences?? Is there any particular = reason for this? I like Flash - don't get me wrong. But I view it as a GUI frill that I = doubt I can sell to my clients who want a functional business = application. Anyone here can tell me why/how I could sell them Flash = which would be over and above CF development? Bonnie E. Betts [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.bettsIT.com 703.508.9766 __ Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
Macromedia's push for Flash is not about over and above CF development. It's about separating application functionality from content display. This is win-win for both the website visitor and your business clients: A number of companies have already saved tons of money in bandwidth cost - I believe I remember one company saying they had saved 75% of thier bandwidth cost, and less need for additional hardware, while increasing site usage and customer satisfaction. Using Flash as the display and UI mechanism for your web-app, you don't have to re-serve an entire HTML page everytime the display needs to be updated (i.e., totals recalculated, dates changed, etc). Instead, you deliver the display once, and then that display (the Flash UI) can exchange smaller bits of data with the server, without re-delivering the display, as is done in HTML based web-apps. This can result in significant hardware and bandwidth savings. This also makes for a very nice experience for the user - fewer pauses and page refreshes/rebuilds/redeliveries. And, you can get a lot more functionality in a smaller space using Flash as the UI for your webapp. It just feels more like an application, rather than web pages. A good commercial site to see this in action is the Broadmoor Hotel: http://reservations.broadmoor.com/ The Designer Developer Center has a blue print Rich Internet application which is fully documented, and there's quite a bit of information which outlines the advantages of using a Flash UI for your webapps: http://www.macromedia.com/desdev/mx/blueprint/ I hope this helps shed some light on how we think Rich Internet Applications will move doing things on the internet to the next level! Vernon Viehe ColdFusion Community Manager Developer Relations Macromedia, Inc. Online diary: http://vvmx.blogspot.com/ -Original Message- From: Bonnie E. Betts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 7:16 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? Is it me, or has anyone else noticed there's a REALLY strong push for = Flash lately at all the CFUGs and conferences?? Is there any particular = reason for this? I like Flash - don't get me wrong. But I view it as a GUI frill that I = doubt I can sell to my clients who want a functional business = application. Anyone here can tell me why/how I could sell them Flash = which would be over and above CF development? Bonnie E. Betts [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.bettsIT.com 703.508.9766 __ Your ad could be here. Monies from ads go to support these lists and provide more resources for the community. http://www.fusionauthority.com/ads.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
Hmmm, seems I've got that stereotype as well then. Ok I could sell 3 and 4 easily enough to the IT Director. I personally find skip intro stuff a waste of my time and view it as appropriate for entertainment sites and sales pitches. Anyone have any links for sample sites using Flash in a business application? Bonnie E. Betts [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.bettsIT.com 703.508.9766 - Original Message - From: Fitch, Tyler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 4:21 PM Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? I'll admit I'm pretty much a brain washed MM Partner, but I'd say they're pushing Flash for a number of reasons. 1) You can build a full web application with it now via Flash Remoting. VERY easily I might add. 2) It isn't just for movies and intros, BUT the public still thinks it is, we as developers are ahead of the public in what we see coming out on the web. The more MM educates people that Flash isn't just movies, the better. That's what I see them doing now. Have you ever seen an post on Slashdot about Flash. All those guys says is skip intro this, skip intro that. They don't even know what's possible since MX came out, and it's been four months. 3) Server load, if you build an application with Flash, the amount of data that needs to be pushed back and forth between a client and server can be greatly reduced, which can mean MAJOR bandwidth/transfer cost reductions to your client. 4) It's a universal component. People can view your application on windows, mac or the right phone without worrying about CSS and JS issues, etc... I'll end it at that, but I'd say number two is the most important reason. t ** Tyler M. Fitch Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer ISITE Design, Inc. 615 SW Broadway Ste. 200 Portland, OR 97205 503.221.9860 ext. 111 http://isitedesign.com ** -Original Message- From: Bonnie E. Betts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 7:16 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? Is it me, or has anyone else noticed there's a REALLY strong push for = Flash lately at all the CFUGs and conferences?? Is there any particular = reason for this? I like Flash - don't get me wrong. But I view it as a GUI frill that I = doubt I can sell to my clients who want a functional business = application. Anyone here can tell me why/how I could sell them Flash = which would be over and above CF development? Bonnie E. Betts [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.bettsIT.com 703.508.9766 __ This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting. FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
Also, features like Flash Remoting allow a much more robust client-side tier of an application. I certainly am no expert, but understand that an intelligent Flash client can dynamically generate and invoke SQL requests and Web services with much of the logic at the client and efficient, streamlined communication with the server. Though, I have heard the joke that parodies McDonalds -- What do you want with your Flash? HTH Dick On Thursday, August 1, 2002, at 04:22 PM, Critz wrote: oi Bonnie!! I don't think the push is to be over and above coldfusion.but to compliment it. It seems their biggest push is to get away from the skip intro stereotype of flash, but to show it can be used for web application..with a pretty front end. - Critz Macromedia Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer CFX_ChannelOP Network=Efnet Channel=ColdFusion Thursday, August 1, 2002, 10:15:36 PM, you wrote: BEB Is it me, or has anyone else noticed there's a REALLY strong push for = BEB Flash lately at all the CFUGs and conferences?? Is there any particular = BEB reason for this? BEB I like Flash - don't get me wrong. But I view it as a GUI frill that I = BEB doubt I can sell to my clients who want a functional business = BEB application. Anyone here can tell me why/how I could sell them Flash = BEB which would be over and above CF development? BEB Bonnie E. Betts BEB [EMAIL PROTECTED] BEB www.bettsIT.com BEB 703.508.9766 BEB __ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
My only issue with the Rich Client thing is... well... there's only one branden hall in the world and Mr. Watts, I'm sure you're doing a good job keeping him busy. Seriously, to truly be a good developer into Flash Remoting, I think we'd have to have that much knowledge, because as it stands... getting Data into Flash is easy, but I have a feeling a lot of CF developers (like myself) are going to scratch their heads and go, Now what? Ideally, this would be great if your business was split equally between CF / Flash MX people and you had a great team of both that could learn from each other. My problem is, that... at the company I work for, only the partners get to play with Flash and even then, they're hacks and... don't even know that Flash MX is out yet (nor the power they can do with it). Sigh... did I mention I'm looking for a new job? ;) ~Todd At 07:30 PM 8/1/2002 -0400, you wrote: Is it me, or has anyone else noticed there's a REALLY strong push for Flash lately at all the CFUGs and conferences?? Is there any particular reason for this? Sure. MM sells CF, MM sells Flash, MM would like more money! On a more serious note, though, I think that MM's strategy is to push developers into what you might call rich client applications. There are a lot of limitations in what you can do with an HTML GUI. Flash goes far beyond those limitations, allowing you to build applications that provide significantly more functionality. The reason that web applications are popular isn't because of the great HTML interface - it's probably close to as bad an interface as possible. So, the logical next step is to provide web-based applications with better interfaces. This was the original promise of Java, if you remember back a few years. Flash is a tool which can fulfill that promise. I like Flash - don't get me wrong. But I view it as a GUI frill that I doubt I can sell to my clients who want a functional business application. Anyone here can tell me why/how I could sell them Flash which would be over and above CF development? It's a common programmers' mistake to think about interfaces as a frill. For an end-user, the interface is ALL THERE IS. Good interface design is necessary for a good application. HTML interfaces may be passable, but I wouldn't consider them good - you'd really hate to use every function on your computer through such an interface, wouldn't you? So, to counteract this misunderstanding, you might show functional business applications written in Flash to your clients. In such an application, you'll see things that would be impractical or impossible in HTML - using Flash to add functionality, instead of skip intro glitter. These applications are out there. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ voice: (202) 797-5496 fax: (202) 797-5444 __ Your ad could be here. Monies from ads go to support these lists and provide more resources for the community. http://www.fusionauthority.com/ads.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
1) You can build a full web application with it now via Flash Remoting. VERY easily I might add. Easily as compared to what? Certainly not as compared to just HTML and CFML. 3) Server load, if you build an application with Flash, the amount of data that needs to be pushed back and forth between a client and server can be greatly reduced, which can mean MAJOR bandwidth/transfer cost reductions to your client. Prove it. I know MM claimed this with their Pet Market application, but that doesn't mean it holds true for all Flash applications. 4) It's a universal component. People can view your application on windows, mac or the right phone without worrying about CSS and JS issues, etc... Not quite. There are a number of platforms that support browsers that the Flash player is not available for. Additionally, some platforms that are supported have limitations that others do not. -Matt __ Your ad could be here. Monies from ads go to support these lists and provide more resources for the community. http://www.fusionauthority.com/ads.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
Here we go this is a little of what I'm looking for: we'll be switching from dHTML to Flash for the trickier parts of the interface (e.g. drag and drop pages, building trees, etc). It's just easier for us and more reliable. Would luv more of this (well, and links showing this in use) Bonnie E. Betts [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.bettsIT.com 703.508.9766 - Original Message - From: Matthew Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 4:26 PM Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? To me it's not a matter of selling them ColdFusion or selling them Flash. You sell them an application. Whether it uses HTML or Flash as the interface is a detail. Our company is about to rebuild a CMS, and we'll be switching from dHTML to Flash for the trickier parts of the interface (e.g. drag and drop pages, building trees, etc). It's just easier for us and more reliable. -Original Message- From: Bonnie E. Betts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, 2 August 2002 2:16 p.m. To: CF-Talk Subject: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? Is it me, or has anyone else noticed there's a REALLY strong push for = Flash lately at all the CFUGs and conferences?? Is there any particular = reason for this? I like Flash - don't get me wrong. But I view it as a GUI frill that I = doubt I can sell to my clients who want a functional business = application. Anyone here can tell me why/how I could sell them Flash = which would be over and above CF development? Bonnie E. Betts [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.bettsIT.com 703.508.9766 __ Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
Well another problem is that Flash is associated as a tool for graphics artists. The IT departments I've been dealing with are full to the hilt with programmers and no creatives. And the prejudice is you need to be a graphics person to create any decent Flash. Bonnie E. Betts [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.bettsIT.com 703.508.9766 - Original Message - From: Todd [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 4:35 PM Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? My only issue with the Rich Client thing is... well... there's only one branden hall in the world and Mr. Watts, I'm sure you're doing a good job keeping him busy. Seriously, to truly be a good developer into Flash Remoting, I think we'd have to have that much knowledge, because as it stands... getting Data into Flash is easy, but I have a feeling a lot of CF developers (like myself) are going to scratch their heads and go, Now what? Ideally, this would be great if your business was split equally between CF / Flash MX people and you had a great team of both that could learn from each other. My problem is, that... at the company I work for, only the partners get to play with Flash and even then, they're hacks and... don't even know that Flash MX is out yet (nor the power they can do with it). Sigh... did I mention I'm looking for a new job? ;) ~Todd At 07:30 PM 8/1/2002 -0400, you wrote: Is it me, or has anyone else noticed there's a REALLY strong push for Flash lately at all the CFUGs and conferences?? Is there any particular reason for this? Sure. MM sells CF, MM sells Flash, MM would like more money! On a more serious note, though, I think that MM's strategy is to push developers into what you might call rich client applications. There are a lot of limitations in what you can do with an HTML GUI. Flash goes far beyond those limitations, allowing you to build applications that provide significantly more functionality. The reason that web applications are popular isn't because of the great HTML interface - it's probably close to as bad an interface as possible. So, the logical next step is to provide web-based applications with better interfaces. This was the original promise of Java, if you remember back a few years. Flash is a tool which can fulfill that promise. I like Flash - don't get me wrong. But I view it as a GUI frill that I doubt I can sell to my clients who want a functional business application. Anyone here can tell me why/how I could sell them Flash which would be over and above CF development? It's a common programmers' mistake to think about interfaces as a frill. For an end-user, the interface is ALL THERE IS. Good interface design is necessary for a good application. HTML interfaces may be passable, but I wouldn't consider them good - you'd really hate to use every function on your computer through such an interface, wouldn't you? So, to counteract this misunderstanding, you might show functional business applications written in Flash to your clients. In such an application, you'll see things that would be impractical or impossible in HTML - using Flash to add functionality, instead of skip intro glitter. These applications are out there. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ voice: (202) 797-5496 fax: (202) 797-5444 __ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
Agreed ... I've been working a side project in Flash, and luckily most of my time is spent in CFStudio writing ActionScript to control objects that someone else has developed in Flash. When I have to manipulate things in Flash I tend to be glad there's a punching bag in the basement! Some things just don't make sense! I think there's great application for Flash on the client end -- in this case there is no server interaction because it will be distributed on a CD -- but the everyday CF developer won't be jumping into Flash to start building their business applications. Then again maybe it's sour grapes on my part because I'm tired of saying I don't do graphics! :) Dan -Original Message- From: Todd [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 4:36 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? My only issue with the Rich Client thing is... well... there's only one branden hall in the world and Mr. Watts, I'm sure you're doing a good job keeping him busy. Seriously, to truly be a good developer into Flash Remoting, I think we'd have to have that much knowledge, because as it stands... getting Data into Flash is easy, but I have a feeling a lot of CF developers (like myself) are going to scratch their heads and go, Now what? Ideally, this would be great if your business was split equally between CF / Flash MX people and you had a great team of both that could learn from each other. My problem is, that... at the company I work for, only the partners get to play with Flash and even then, they're hacks and... don't even know that Flash MX is out yet (nor the power they can do with it). Sigh... did I mention I'm looking for a new job? ;) ~Todd At 07:30 PM 8/1/2002 -0400, you wrote: Is it me, or has anyone else noticed there's a REALLY strong push for Flash lately at all the CFUGs and conferences?? Is there any particular reason for this? Sure. MM sells CF, MM sells Flash, MM would like more money! On a more serious note, though, I think that MM's strategy is to push developers into what you might call rich client applications. There are a lot of limitations in what you can do with an HTML GUI. Flash goes far beyond those limitations, allowing you to build applications that provide significantly more functionality. The reason that web applications are popular isn't because of the great HTML interface - it's probably close to as bad an interface as possible. So, the logical next step is to provide web-based applications with better interfaces. This was the original promise of Java, if you remember back a few years. Flash is a tool which can fulfill that promise. I like Flash - don't get me wrong. But I view it as a GUI frill that I doubt I can sell to my clients who want a functional business application. Anyone here can tell me why/how I could sell them Flash which would be over and above CF development? It's a common programmers' mistake to think about interfaces as a frill. For an end-user, the interface is ALL THERE IS. Good interface design is necessary for a good application. HTML interfaces may be passable, but I wouldn't consider them good - you'd really hate to use every function on your computer through such an interface, wouldn't you? So, to counteract this misunderstanding, you might show functional business applications written in Flash to your clients. In such an application, you'll see things that would be impractical or impossible in HTML - using Flash to add functionality, instead of skip intro glitter. These applications are out there. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ voice: (202) 797-5496 fax: (202) 797-5444 __ This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting. FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
Anyone have any links for sample sites using Flash in a business application? I remember Dave Watts posting a message with a link to an org-chart that was done in Flash in response to a post about org-charts built on CF... Though when I looked at it, I must admit, I found it very confusing ... but nonetheless, it was Flash with a business application... Then there's my chat room http://www.turnkey.to/talkontap which... although it's not specifically a business app and not being used for any business purposes currently, chat is certainly applicable to business, i.e. technical support, inexpensive conferencing, etc... Incidentally, I personally find skip intro stuff annoying regardless of the type of site... although I have seen sites where I think the use of smaller flash movies does make the site more attractive without detracting from the content... http://www.siteobjects.com is a fantastic example: take a close look at their new logo. :) Isaac Dealey Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer www.turnkey.to 954-776-0046 __ This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting. FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
-Original Message- From: Matt Liotta [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 4:34 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? 1) You can build a full web application with it now via Flash Remoting. VERY easily I might add. Easily as compared to what? Certainly not as compared to just HTML and CFML. Compared to Flash 5. 3) Server load, if you build an application with Flash, the amount of data that needs to be pushed back and forth between a client and server can be greatly reduced, which can mean MAJOR bandwidth/transfer cost reductions to your client. Prove it. I know MM claimed this with their Pet Market application, but that doesn't mean it holds true for all Flash applications. Etrade has a stock quote component on their home page. People would put the quote in, reload the whole page to get the data. They changed it to a Flash piece, only that changed. Saved around $400 million for them in bandwidth charges. 4) It's a universal component. People can view your application on windows, mac or the right phone without worrying about CSS and JS issues, etc... Not quite. There are a number of platforms that support browsers that the Flash player is not available for. Additionally, some platforms that are supported have limitations that others do not. Well universal was quoted for a reason. But nothing is perfect. Any app will need tweaks, etc... -t __ Your ad could be here. Monies from ads go to support these lists and provide more resources for the community. http://www.fusionauthority.com/ads.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
Well there is a vacuum right now in this particular space. Java applets have fallen into disfavor as a rich client platform. ActiveX has always had negatives, and is being replaced with .Net ever so slowly. So if there ever was a time to push Flash the time is now I guess. Reasons to sell Flash? Why do people buy BMW's when a Ford would get them to work just as fast, and use less gas? I happen know that Ford sells more cars than BMW though, and I'll be happy with that market :) Personally...I'm a minimalist when it comes to web design and prefer to keep the client as thin as possible. Two of the ugliest sites on the internet are arguably the among the most successful, Ebay, and Yahoo, and the simplest is probably the most successful of them all, Google. No Flash on any of those sites...except in the ads! There is very little that can't be done with the v4.0+ browsers with JS/DOM stuff that can be done in Flash. I don't really have anything against Flash though, and have played with some actionscript. Unfortunately the Flash UI is absolutely the most horrendous code editing environment ever dreamed up. Worse than DW MX even g, so I can't really give it a fair shake because I hate the environment so much. Can someone tell me who's brilliant idea it was to focus the drawing area as soon as the application is refocused? Even if the cursor is focused on the code editing area in advanced mode alt-tab away and back, and you have to use the mouse again. Grr. -- Jon mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Thursday, August 1, 2002, 10:15:36 PM, you wrote: BEB Is it me, or has anyone else noticed there's a REALLY strong push for = BEB Flash lately at all the CFUGs and conferences?? Is there any particular = BEB reason for this? BEB I like Flash - don't get me wrong. But I view it as a GUI frill that I = BEB doubt I can sell to my clients who want a functional business = BEB application. Anyone here can tell me why/how I could sell them Flash = BEB which would be over and above CF development? __ Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
I solved the Flash MX problem by hiring one of the guys who wrote the Flash MX certification test and is writing the accompanying book. I also know at least two other Flash MX developers in the Bay Area that are up to speed on Flash remoting now. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Todd [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 4:36 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? My only issue with the Rich Client thing is... well... there's only one branden hall in the world and Mr. Watts, I'm sure you're doing a good job keeping him busy. Seriously, to truly be a good developer into Flash Remoting, I think we'd have to have that much knowledge, because as it stands... getting Data into Flash is easy, but I have a feeling a lot of CF developers (like myself) are going to scratch their heads and go, Now what? Ideally, this would be great if your business was split equally between CF / Flash MX people and you had a great team of both that could learn from each other. My problem is, that... at the company I work for, only the partners get to play with Flash and even then, they're hacks and... don't even know that Flash MX is out yet (nor the power they can do with it). Sigh... did I mention I'm looking for a new job? ;) ~Todd At 07:30 PM 8/1/2002 -0400, you wrote: Is it me, or has anyone else noticed there's a REALLY strong push for Flash lately at all the CFUGs and conferences?? Is there any particular reason for this? Sure. MM sells CF, MM sells Flash, MM would like more money! On a more serious note, though, I think that MM's strategy is to push developers into what you might call rich client applications. There are a lot of limitations in what you can do with an HTML GUI. Flash goes far beyond those limitations, allowing you to build applications that provide significantly more functionality. The reason that web applications are popular isn't because of the great HTML interface - it's probably close to as bad an interface as possible. So, the logical next step is to provide web-based applications with better interfaces. This was the original promise of Java, if you remember back a few years. Flash is a tool which can fulfill that promise. I like Flash - don't get me wrong. But I view it as a GUI frill that I doubt I can sell to my clients who want a functional business application. Anyone here can tell me why/how I could sell them Flash which would be over and above CF development? It's a common programmers' mistake to think about interfaces as a frill. For an end-user, the interface is ALL THERE IS. Good interface design is necessary for a good application. HTML interfaces may be passable, but I wouldn't consider them good - you'd really hate to use every function on your computer through such an interface, wouldn't you? So, to counteract this misunderstanding, you might show functional business applications written in Flash to your clients. In such an application, you'll see things that would be impractical or impossible in HTML - using Flash to add functionality, instead of skip intro glitter. These applications are out there. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ voice: (202) 797-5496 fax: (202) 797-5444 __ Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
Compared to Flash 5. Well that doesn't have very much appeal for ColdFusion people without Flash experience. Etrade has a stock quote component on their home page. People would put the quote in, reload the whole page to get the data. They changed it to a Flash piece, only that changed. Saved around $400 million for them in bandwidth charges. That is just one example. While I am sure you or others can think of other examples like that one -- I certainly can -- the example is just using a Flash piece embedded in an html page. MM has proposed doing away with html entirely for a Flash front-end. In those cases I don't see the bandwidth reduction at all. -Matt __ Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
So would we! ;-) Just ideas on paper at this stage. I guess that's the problem all around. We have the potential to work in new and interesting ways, but there are few examples, so it's a bit of a leap of faith. Personally, I believe rich clients are the way of the future. It's just a matter of managing the process. -Original Message- From: Bonnie E. Betts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, 2 August 2002 2:48 p.m. To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? Here we go this is a little of what I'm looking for: we'll be switching from dHTML to Flash for the trickier parts of the interface (e.g. drag and drop pages, building trees, etc). It's just easier for us and more reliable. Would luv more of this (well, and links showing this in use) Bonnie E. Betts [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.bettsIT.com 703.508.9766 - Original Message - From: Matthew Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 4:26 PM Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? To me it's not a matter of selling them ColdFusion or selling them Flash. You sell them an application. Whether it uses HTML or Flash as the interface is a detail. Our company is about to rebuild a CMS, and we'll be switching from dHTML to Flash for the trickier parts of the interface (e.g. drag and drop pages, building trees, etc). It's just easier for us and more reliable. -Original Message- From: Bonnie E. Betts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, 2 August 2002 2:16 p.m. To: CF-Talk Subject: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? Is it me, or has anyone else noticed there's a REALLY strong push for = Flash lately at all the CFUGs and conferences?? Is there any particular = reason for this? I like Flash - don't get me wrong. But I view it as a GUI frill that I = doubt I can sell to my clients who want a functional business = application. Anyone here can tell me why/how I could sell them Flash = which would be over and above CF development? Bonnie E. Betts [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.bettsIT.com 703.508.9766 __ This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting. FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
We have sell a product (Alchemy EX Studio) as part of our Alchemy EX suite that is completely Flash MX based. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Bonnie E. Betts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 7:48 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? Here we go this is a little of what I'm looking for: we'll be switching from dHTML to Flash for the trickier parts of the interface (e.g. drag and drop pages, building trees, etc). It's just easier for us and more reliable. Would luv more of this (well, and links showing this in use) Bonnie E. Betts [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.bettsIT.com 703.508.9766 - Original Message - From: Matthew Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 4:26 PM Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? To me it's not a matter of selling them ColdFusion or selling them Flash. You sell them an application. Whether it uses HTML or Flash as the interface is a detail. Our company is about to rebuild a CMS, and we'll be switching from dHTML to Flash for the trickier parts of the interface (e.g. drag and drop pages, building trees, etc). It's just easier for us and more reliable. -Original Message- From: Bonnie E. Betts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, 2 August 2002 2:16 p.m. To: CF-Talk Subject: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? Is it me, or has anyone else noticed there's a REALLY strong push for = Flash lately at all the CFUGs and conferences?? Is there any particular = reason for this? I like Flash - don't get me wrong. But I view it as a GUI frill that I = doubt I can sell to my clients who want a functional business = application. Anyone here can tell me why/how I could sell them Flash = which would be over and above CF development? Bonnie E. Betts [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.bettsIT.com 703.508.9766 __ This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting. FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
http://www.siteobjects.com is a fantastic example: take a close look at their new logo. :) Isaac Dealey (remembering an old IBM commercial) At least it doesn't have flames shooting out the top of it... Then again, http://www.thrave.com/ looks cool. =P ~Todd Todd Rafferty ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.web-rat.com/ Team Macromedia Volunteer for ColdFusion http://www.macromedia.com/support/forums/team_macromedia/ Moderator @ FlashCFM.com - http://www.flashCFM.com/ Back-end Moderator @ Ultrashock.com - http://www.ultrashock.com/ __ Your ad could be here. Monies from ads go to support these lists and provide more resources for the community. http://www.fusionauthority.com/ads.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
That's my point... Flash developers. I'm talking about the need for Flash / CFMX developers to be _1_ person. It will take time for this to happen, it's not going to happen overnight. I still think it's important to have people that are GREAT in CFMX and then other people that are GREAT in Flash MX.. but, those that will be GREAT in both apps will be rare, but ... within 2-3 years, won't be that rare. We'll see. ~Todd At 04:50 PM 8/1/2002 -0700, you wrote: I solved the Flash MX problem by hiring one of the guys who wrote the Flash MX certification test and is writing the accompanying book. I also know at least two other Flash MX developers in the Bay Area that are up to speed on Flash remoting now. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
Well sometimes CF developers have to adapt. They're out their learning CFCs and other new CFMX functionality right now. I trust that if they need too, they'll be smart enough to learn some Flash too. I disagree about your last point. If your whole site is in Flash it loads once. The Flash movie is equal to one or two rich HTML pages in size. Perform more than two functions on your site and you're then passing less data than you would via HTML. That's the simplified version of how it works. I doubt Talkers really cares more about it than that, unless they're actually building an app. Then it's worth it to go into the specifics. t P.S. your site is down ** Tyler M. Fitch Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer ISITE Design, Inc. 615 SW Broadway Ste. 200 Portland, OR 97205 503.221.9860 ext. 111 http://isitedesign.com ** -Original Message- From: Matt Liotta [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 5:00 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? Compared to Flash 5. Well that doesn't have very much appeal for ColdFusion people without Flash experience. Etrade has a stock quote component on their home page. People would put the quote in, reload the whole page to get the data. They changed it to a Flash piece, only that changed. Saved around $400 million for them in bandwidth charges. That is just one example. While I am sure you or others can think of other examples like that one -- I certainly can -- the example is just using a Flash piece embedded in an html page. MM has proposed doing away with html entirely for a Flash front-end. In those cases I don't see the bandwidth reduction at all. -Matt __ This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting. FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
That is just one example. While I am sure you or others can think of other examples like that one -- I certainly can -- the example is just using a Flash piece embedded in an html page. MM has proposed doing away with html entirely for a Flash front-end. In those cases I don't see the bandwidth reduction at all. -Matt Well correct me if I'm wrong Matt, but if you first preload a flash movie (in this case, the entire UI) and then with each navigation click you simply request the raw data from within the Flash movie, wouldn't it make sense that the bandwidth needs would be less than a non Flash-based site? It sure seems simple to me. --P Paul W. Wille [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer --- ISITE Design, Inc. -- Senior Programmer www.isitedesign.com 615 SW Broadway, Suite 200 Portland, OR 97205 503.221.9860 x110 503.221.9865 __ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
That's my point... Flash developers. I'm talking about the need for Flash / CFMX developers to be _1_ person. It will take time for this to happen, I don't think this has to happen at all. I can create the CFCs the flash needs, and the Flash developer can take it from there... __ Your ad could be here. Monies from ads go to support these lists and provide more resources for the community. http://www.fusionauthority.com/ads.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
It is always going to be more cost effective to have two specialized people (Flash and ColdFusion developer) than one person who is ok at both. It took me all of an hour to get going with Flash MX and start creating real applications. Is it a wise use of my time? Not in a million years. UI people are simply a different bread. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Todd [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 5:12 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? That's my point... Flash developers. I'm talking about the need for Flash / CFMX developers to be _1_ person. It will take time for this to happen, it's not going to happen overnight. I still think it's important to have people that are GREAT in CFMX and then other people that are GREAT in Flash MX.. but, those that will be GREAT in both apps will be rare, but ... within 2-3 years, won't be that rare. We'll see. ~Todd At 04:50 PM 8/1/2002 -0700, you wrote: I solved the Flash MX problem by hiring one of the guys who wrote the Flash MX certification test and is writing the accompanying book. I also know at least two other Flash MX developers in the Bay Area that are up to speed on Flash remoting now. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
Yeah no kidding! I sure can't convince them it's cheaper to hire two different developers! And I sure would hate to think of the old days when programmers designed the GUI :(. At least now, a GUI is created and design templates formed. And then the programmers can build functionality till the cows come home. VERY cheap that way compared to needing a Flash guru for each app built. Bonnie E. Betts [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.bettsIT.com 703.508.9766 - Original Message - From: Todd [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 5:11 PM Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? That's my point... Flash developers. I'm talking about the need for Flash / CFMX developers to be _1_ person. It will take time for this to happen, it's not going to happen overnight. I still think it's important to have people that are GREAT in CFMX and then other people that are GREAT in Flash MX.. but, those that will be GREAT in both apps will be rare, but ... within 2-3 years, won't be that rare. We'll see. ~Todd At 04:50 PM 8/1/2002 -0700, you wrote: I solved the Flash MX problem by hiring one of the guys who wrote the Flash MX certification test and is writing the accompanying book. I also know at least two other Flash MX developers in the Bay Area that are up to speed on Flash remoting now. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting. FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
At 12:18 PM 8/2/2002 +1200, you wrote: That's my point... Flash developers. I'm talking about the need for Flash / CFMX developers to be _1_ person. It will take time for this to happen, I don't think this has to happen at all. I can create the CFCs the flash needs, and the Flash developer can take it from there... True, but a well rounded person would know the in's and out's of both... achieving that Guru status has it's merits you know... Todd Rafferty ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.web-rat.com/ Team Macromedia Volunteer for ColdFusion http://www.macromedia.com/support/forums/team_macromedia/ Moderator @ FlashCFM.com - http://www.flashCFM.com/ Back-end Moderator @ Ultrashock.com - http://www.ultrashock.com/ __ Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
The way of the future? I remember seeing my first image on a web page on yahoo ages ago...must have been 94-95. Seven years later we just have a bunch more pictures on the web page, and the most successful web site in existence right now still has just one. I'd love to play with Flash...it's a different paradigm than the programmer in me is used to (unlike svg *cough*) though. Flash is successful, and will continue to be, but I think rich clients are just part of the future, and the present, by no means will they be prevalent though. -- Jon mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Thursday, August 1, 2002, 8:03:48 PM, you wrote: MW So would we! ;-) Just ideas on paper at this stage. I guess that's the MW problem all around. We have the potential to work in new and interesting MW ways, but there are few examples, so it's a bit of a leap of faith. MW Personally, I believe rich clients are the way of the future. It's just MW a matter of managing the process. __ This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting. FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
If your whole site is in Flash it loads once. The Flash movie is equal to one or two rich HTML pages in size. Perform more than two functions on your site and you're then passing less data than you would via HTML. That's the simplified version of how it works. I doubt Talkers really cares more about it than that, unless they're actually building an app. Then it's worth it to go into the specifics. You are making assumptions. Flash gives you the ability to do things you couldn't do before in html, which could required higher bandwidth than the equivalent application using html. While the extra bandwidth may be worth it for a better experience, the extra bandwidth is still there. Flash applications do not inherently save bandwidth. -Matt __ This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting. FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
Well correct me if I'm wrong Matt, but if you first preload a flash movie (in this case, the entire UI) and then with each navigation click you simply request the raw data from within the Flash movie, wouldn't it make sense that the bandwidth needs would be less than a non Flash-based site? It really depends on the application. I have certainly seen Flash applications that use more bandwidth than their html counterparts and vice versa too. -Matt __ Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
And you are making assumptions as well here. A *GOOD* Flash developer would design the Flash interface to be lightweight, preload once (or as minimal as possible), and minimize the size of his/her Flash movies. No different is the argument that CFML is slow. Those of us that know CFML know that any poor developer can write bad CFML that will inherently be slow. I fail to understand your point of view on this. I think you can see where I am coming from. Paul W. Wille [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer --- ISITE Design, Inc. -- Senior Programmer www.isitedesign.com 615 SW Broadway, Suite 200 Portland, OR 97205 503.221.9860 x110 503.221.9865 -Original Message- From: Matt Liotta [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 5:26 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? If your whole site is in Flash it loads once. The Flash movie is equal to one or two rich HTML pages in size. Perform more than two functions on your site and you're then passing less data than you would via HTML. That's the simplified version of how it works. I doubt Talkers really cares more about it than that, unless they're actually building an app. Then it's worth it to go into the specifics. You are making assumptions. Flash gives you the ability to do things you couldn't do before in html, which could required higher bandwidth than the equivalent application using html. While the extra bandwidth may be worth it for a better experience, the extra bandwidth is still there. Flash applications do not inherently save bandwidth. -Matt __ Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
True, but a well rounded person would know the in's and out's of both... achieving that Guru status has it's merits you know... That is only true for some languages. I have obtained proficiency and mastery in more languages than most and I doubt I will ever be a proficient Flash developer. ActionScript is easy, but there is a lot more to Flash development than that. -Matt __ Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
That is absolutely not true. A good Flash developer will create a UI that meets the business requirements of the application and allows a user to easily make use of it. That may or may not use more bandwidth than an html based application with the same business requirements. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Wille, Paul [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 5:33 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? And you are making assumptions as well here. A *GOOD* Flash developer would design the Flash interface to be lightweight, preload once (or as minimal as possible), and minimize the size of his/her Flash movies. No different is the argument that CFML is slow. Those of us that know CFML know that any poor developer can write bad CFML that will inherently be slow. I fail to understand your point of view on this. I think you can see where I am coming from. Paul W. Wille [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer --- ISITE Design, Inc. -- Senior Programmer www.isitedesign.com 615 SW Broadway, Suite 200 Portland, OR 97205 503.221.9860 x110 503.221.9865 -Original Message- From: Matt Liotta [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 5:26 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? If your whole site is in Flash it loads once. The Flash movie is equal to one or two rich HTML pages in size. Perform more than two functions on your site and you're then passing less data than you would via HTML. That's the simplified version of how it works. I doubt Talkers really cares more about it than that, unless they're actually building an app. Then it's worth it to go into the specifics. You are making assumptions. Flash gives you the ability to do things you couldn't do before in html, which could required higher bandwidth than the equivalent application using html. While the extra bandwidth may be worth it for a better experience, the extra bandwidth is still there. Flash applications do not inherently save bandwidth. -Matt __ This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting. FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
Matt Are you telling me you won't be a flash guru anytime soon? :-P Just poking fun... I baited that email pretty well I see. :-) ~Todd At 05:31 PM 8/1/2002 -0700, you wrote: True, but a well rounded person would know the in's and out's of both... achieving that Guru status has it's merits you know... That is only true for some languages. I have obtained proficiency and mastery in more languages than most and I doubt I will ever be a proficient Flash developer. ActionScript is easy, but there is a lot more to Flash development than that. -Matt Todd Rafferty ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.web-rat.com/ Team Macromedia Volunteer for ColdFusion http://www.macromedia.com/support/forums/team_macromedia/ Moderator @ FlashCFM.com - http://www.flashCFM.com/ Back-end Moderator @ Ultrashock.com - http://www.ultrashock.com/ __ Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
Etrade has a stock quote component on their home page. People would put the quote in, reload the whole page to get the data. They changed it to a Flash piece, only that changed. Saved around $400 million for them in bandwidth charges. In the Macromedia seminar I attended last week, Mike Downey said Etrade saves about $4 million per year. Tom __ Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
C'mon Tom! $4 million, $400 million, what's the difference. ;-) More money than we'll see in a lifetime. ;-) Just teasing, ~Todd At 07:48 PM 8/1/2002 -0500, you wrote: Etrade has a stock quote component on their home page. People would put the quote in, reload the whole page to get the data. They changed it to a Flash piece, only that changed. Saved around $400 million for them in bandwidth charges. In the Macromedia seminar I attended last week, Mike Downey said Etrade saves about $4 million per year. Tom Todd Rafferty ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.web-rat.com/ Team Macromedia Volunteer for ColdFusion http://www.macromedia.com/support/forums/team_macromedia/ Moderator @ FlashCFM.com - http://www.flashCFM.com/ Back-end Moderator @ Ultrashock.com - http://www.ultrashock.com/ __ Your ad could be here. Monies from ads go to support these lists and provide more resources for the community. http://www.fusionauthority.com/ads.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
I heard 400 from someone. It seemed like a lot. I like 4. Thanks, t ** Tyler M. Fitch Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer ISITE Design, Inc. 615 SW Broadway Ste. 200 Portland, OR 97205 503.221.9860 ext. 111 http://isitedesign.com ** -Original Message- From: Tom Nunamaker [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 5:49 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? Etrade has a stock quote component on their home page. People would put the quote in, reload the whole page to get the data. They changed it to a Flash piece, only that changed. Saved around $400 million for them in bandwidth charges. In the Macromedia seminar I attended last week, Mike Downey said Etrade saves about $4 million per year. Tom __ This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting. FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
Fine Matt, I'm right, you're wrong. We'll all deal with it. Imagine a e-commerce site in Flash and in HTML. A user comes in and compares multiple products, over and over again because they can't make up their mind and because they don't care about how much data they take in. In Flash, with every product page load the Flash player calls for a gets the product description and a jpg. In HTML each click loads a whole page, header - footer and all. Over and over again. In THIS case I see Flash taking less bandwidth. App #2 - a rich app with video and bells and whistles. You already know you're going to be spending bandwidth. You pretty much have to use Flash to do it nicely, or use Quicktime or something else less elegant. But you're using video and you know it, so you have different bandwidth concerns already. Flash applications add possibilities. One is saving bandwidth, another is using bandwidth. Depends on each individual application. I think everyone is done hearing me say the same thing for the third time. The thing is I, like you, like to have a final word from time to time. We'll all wait for your response to finish this. I'm going to go to the baseball game, drink $1 beers, go home and pass out. Cheers, t -Original Message- From: Matt Liotta [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 5:26 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? If your whole site is in Flash it loads once. The Flash movie is equal to one or two rich HTML pages in size. Perform more than two functions on your site and you're then passing less data than you would via HTML. That's the simplified version of how it works. I doubt Talkers really cares more about it than that, unless they're actually building an app. Then it's worth it to go into the specifics. You are making assumptions. Flash gives you the ability to do things you couldn't do before in html, which could required higher bandwidth than the equivalent application using html. While the extra bandwidth may be worth it for a better experience, the extra bandwidth is still there. Flash applications do not inherently save bandwidth. -Matt __ Your ad could be here. Monies from ads go to support these lists and provide more resources for the community. http://www.fusionauthority.com/ads.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
Fitch, Tyler wrote: Etrade has a stock quote component on their home page. People would put the quote in, reload the whole page to get the data. They changed it to a Flash piece, only that changed. Saved around $400 million for them in bandwidth charges. What did XMLHTTP do again? Jochem -- There are many ways to Rome __ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
wow 4 million in bandwidth... point well said is that why even use Flash any number of solutions via Javascript or other stuff via DHTML... Flash is nice for things like this though undoubtedly... don't let me try to rain on the Flash party I just get a little peeved myself with the latest round of embedded functionality in pages using flash... sure it looks good and does whatever they want, but it certainly stops everything I am doing until Flash gets it act moving... which can be a pain in the hind when I am just browsing a site looking for relevant content Places like Etrade should be running lots of nearly textual stuff... reusing images universally, running cache servers and controlling the experience... It's simple to see how a bulky site when multiplied across a large user base can be quite a bit of bandwidth waste... This is certainly one of those 'I opted for it' good uses of flash -paris -Original Message- From: Tom Nunamaker [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 8:49 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? Etrade has a stock quote component on their home page. People would put the quote in, reload the whole page to get the data. They changed it to a Flash piece, only that changed. Saved around $400 million for them in bandwidth charges. In the Macromedia seminar I attended last week, Mike Downey said Etrade saves about $4 million per year. Tom __ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
Fitch I'd say your assessment is a reasonable one... Thing is I still consider Flash in it's infancy...It's been an a very big initial push for MX...I think after one or two more iterations we'll begin to see the bigger picture...and by that time it'll be feasible to incorporate into day to day projects. That's not to say I'm not using it now...but not nearly to the level as I'd like to... Stace -Original Message- From: Fitch, Tyler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 9:02 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? Fine Matt, I'm right, you're wrong. We'll all deal with it. Imagine a e-commerce site in Flash and in HTML. A user comes in and compares multiple products, over and over again because they can't make up their mind and because they don't care about how much data they take in. In Flash, with every product page load the Flash player calls for a gets the product description and a jpg. In HTML each click loads a whole page, header - footer and all. Over and over again. In THIS case I see Flash taking less bandwidth. App #2 - a rich app with video and bells and whistles. You already know you're going to be spending bandwidth. You pretty much have to use Flash to do it nicely, or use Quicktime or something else less elegant. But you're using video and you know it, so you have different bandwidth concerns already. Flash applications add possibilities. One is saving bandwidth, another is using bandwidth. Depends on each individual application. I think everyone is done hearing me say the same thing for the third time. The thing is I, like you, like to have a final word from time to time. We'll all wait for your response to finish this. I'm going to go to the baseball game, drink $1 beers, go home and pass out. Cheers, t -Original Message- From: Matt Liotta [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 5:26 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? If your whole site is in Flash it loads once. The Flash movie is equal to one or two rich HTML pages in size. Perform more than two functions on your site and you're then passing less data than you would via HTML. That's the simplified version of how it works. I doubt Talkers really cares more about it than that, unless they're actually building an app. Then it's worth it to go into the specifics. You are making assumptions. Flash gives you the ability to do things you couldn't do before in html, which could required higher bandwidth than the equivalent application using html. While the extra bandwidth may be worth it for a better experience, the extra bandwidth is still there. Flash applications do not inherently save bandwidth. -Matt __ Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
Fitch, Tyler wrote: Imagine a e-commerce site in Flash and in HTML. A user comes in and compares multiple products, over and over again because they can't make up their mind and because they don't care about how much data they take in. In Flash, with every product page load the Flash player calls for a gets the product description and a jpg. In HTML each click loads a whole page, header - footer and all. Over and over again. In THIS case I see Flash taking less bandwidth. And XUL + XMLHTTP even less :) App #2 - a rich app with video and bells and whistles. You already know you're going to be spending bandwidth. You pretty much have to use Flash to do it nicely, or use Quicktime or something else less elegant. But you're using video and you know it, so you have different bandwidth concerns already. Not necessarily. Multicast could very well be the real bandwidth saver here (and Flash doesn't support it). Flash applications add possibilities. One is saving bandwidth, another is using bandwidth. Depends on each individual application. Very true. It is the application, together with the skills (and the imagination) of the people that work on it that decide what is the best option. Jochem __ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
On Thursday, August 1, 2002, at 06:14 , Jochem van Dieten wrote: Not necessarily. Multicast could very well be the real bandwidth saver here (and Flash doesn't support it). Read about the FlashCom Server: http://www.macromedia.com/software/flashcom/ If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwood __ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
by default, Flash is used like its name choice for flash... showing off... Flash is starting to show some promise as a real business application suite tie in... There still are needs for more examples and studies like the Pet Store application... MacroMedia should encourage more of these sorts of development efforts... and more studies about feasibility and strategies with relation to issues like reuse and bandwidth among a long list of other things... Anyone looked at comparing development time to front end with Flash vs. HTML? -paris -Original Message- From: Jochem van Dieten [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 9:14 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? Fitch, Tyler wrote: Imagine a e-commerce site in Flash and in HTML. A user comes in and compares multiple products, over and over again because they can't make up their mind and because they don't care about how much data they take in. In Flash, with every product page load the Flash player calls for a gets the product description and a jpg. In HTML each click loads a whole page, header - footer and all. Over and over again. In THIS case I see Flash taking less bandwidth. And XUL + XMLHTTP even less :) App #2 - a rich app with video and bells and whistles. You already know you're going to be spending bandwidth. You pretty much have to use Flash to do it nicely, or use Quicktime or something else less elegant. But you're using video and you know it, so you have different bandwidth concerns already. Not necessarily. Multicast could very well be the real bandwidth saver here (and Flash doesn't support it). Flash applications add possibilities. One is saving bandwidth, another is using bandwidth. Depends on each individual application. Very true. It is the application, together with the skills (and the imagination) of the people that work on it that decide what is the best option. Jochem __ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
Not necessarily. Multicast could very well be the real bandwidth saver here (and Flash doesn't support it). Jochem Correct me if I'm wrong, but ... isn't multicast = Flash Communication Server? ~Todd __ Your ad could be here. Monies from ads go to support these lists and provide more resources for the community. http://www.fusionauthority.com/ads.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
Sean A Corfield wrote: On Thursday, August 1, 2002, at 06:14 , Jochem van Dieten wrote: Not necessarily. Multicast could very well be the real bandwidth saver here (and Flash doesn't support it). Read about the FlashCom Server: http://www.macromedia.com/software/flashcom/ I tried the following: http://search.atomz.com/search/?sp-a=sp1001395bsp-p=anysp-q=multicast Please enlighten me. Jochem __ Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
Try to sell the clients on the costs of developing the flash. If you count up the hours. Flash is NOT cheap. If you count up the hours maintaining flash... It is REALLY not cheap. My .02 from experience. -Original Message- From: Bonnie E. Betts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 7:16 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? Is it me, or has anyone else noticed there's a REALLY strong push for = Flash lately at all the CFUGs and conferences?? Is there any particular = reason for this? I like Flash - don't get me wrong. But I view it as a GUI frill that I = doubt I can sell to my clients who want a functional business = application. Anyone here can tell me why/how I could sell them Flash = which would be over and above CF development? Bonnie E. Betts [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.bettsIT.com 703.508.9766 __ This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting. FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
Negative. A GOOD Flash developer is very mindful of bandwidth. Perhaps you should check with the award winning Flash developer you hired. I am not trying to say to anyone that Flash is the end-all, be-all of web development. Same with ColdFusion MX. What I AM saying, though, is that the proof is oh-so-simple: when only transmitting data rather than UI components + data, its obvious to see which will require less bandwidth. Our Flash developers are very mindful of size/download time of their flash components, regardless of size or complexity. I think that both you and I can agree that Flash, when appropriated correctly, CAN save bandwidth. The converse holds true as well. I just don't appreciate the blanket implication that Flash ALWAYS is more bandwidth intensive. Let's all remember that this is an open forum, we all have the place to hold our respective opinions, and respect others as well. Regards, --Paul Paul W. Wille [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer --- ISITE Design, Inc. -- Senior Programmer www.isitedesign.com 615 SW Broadway, Suite 200 Portland, OR 97205 503.221.9860 x110 503.221.9865 -Original Message- From: Matt Liotta [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thu 8/1/2002 4:36 PM To: CF-Talk Cc: Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? That is absolutely not true. A good Flash developer will create a UI that meets the business requirements of the application and allows a user to easily make use of it. That may or may not use more bandwidth than an html based application with the same business requirements. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Wille, Paul [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 5:33 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? And you are making assumptions as well here. A *GOOD* Flash developer would design the Flash interface to be lightweight, preload once (or as minimal as possible), and minimize the size of his/her Flash movies. No different is the argument that CFML is slow. Those of us that know CFML know that any poor developer can write bad CFML that will inherently be slow. I fail to understand your point of view on this. I think you can see where I am coming from. Paul W. Wille [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer --- ISITE Design, Inc. -- Senior Programmer www.isitedesign.com 615 SW Broadway, Suite 200 Portland, OR 97205 503.221.9860 x110 503.221.9865 -Original Message- From: Matt Liotta [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 5:26 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? If your whole site is in Flash it loads once. The Flash movie is equal to one or two rich HTML pages in size. Perform more than two functions on your site and you're then passing less data than you would via HTML. That's the simplified version of how it works. I doubt Talkers really cares more about it than that, unless they're actually building an app. Then it's worth it to go into the specifics. You are making assumptions. Flash gives you the ability to do things you couldn't do before in html, which could required higher bandwidth than the equivalent application using html. While the extra bandwidth may be worth it for a better experience, the extra bandwidth is still there. Flash applications do not inherently save bandwidth. -Matt __ This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting. FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
At 03:31 AM 8/2/2002 +0200, you wrote: Sean A Corfield wrote: Read about the FlashCom Server: http://www.macromedia.com/software/flashcom/ I tried the following: http://search.atomz.com/search/?sp-a=sp1001395bsp-p=anysp-q=multicast Please enlighten me. Jochem Just follow that Link Sean gave you Jochem, don't know what rock you been living under, but it's been out now for about 3-4 weeks. Works pretty good too. Check out Mike Chamber's blog chat: http://radio.weblogs.com/0106797/ ~Todd __ Your ad could be here. Monies from ads go to support these lists and provide more resources for the community. http://www.fusionauthority.com/ads.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
cost of development alone may be the biggest deterrent... in our world its: interface (graphic) content (text) html applications (cf) clients want to pay only for the HTML :) the apps have to be done cheaply, and quickly... thus CF... Interface is always an issue... modifying Photoshop designs to cross browser implemented HTML is a pain in the arse as it is... Can only wonder how expensive Flash would get... because now you add a new layer of behaviors, many multiples of design and round trip interaction and tracking... lots of stuff... Flash should be proximate to CD Rom development... The average CD Rom development costs what these days? -paris -Original Message- From: Chad Gray [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 12:30 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? Try to sell the clients on the costs of developing the flash. If you count up the hours. Flash is NOT cheap. If you count up the hours maintaining flash... It is REALLY not cheap. My .02 from experience. -Original Message- From: Bonnie E. Betts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 7:16 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? Is it me, or has anyone else noticed there's a REALLY strong push for = Flash lately at all the CFUGs and conferences?? Is there any particular = reason for this? I like Flash - don't get me wrong. But I view it as a GUI frill that I = doubt I can sell to my clients who want a functional business = application. Anyone here can tell me why/how I could sell them Flash = which would be over and above CF development? Bonnie E. Betts [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.bettsIT.com 703.508.9766 __ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
Forgive me if I am wrong, but multicast seems like it wouldn't work on the internet at large. The server still has to send the packets somewhere. If the server sends one stream to the broadcast address of my subnet, my cable or dsl subnet is going to be flooded by the traffic. I definitely can see applications in a business setting though where you have the ability to configure the network so that multicast would work very nicely though. Maybe if the ISP's did some fancy subnetting, but getting isps to get organized on anything wont happen... Multicast just seems like the ip version of broadcast tv to me. Maybe when we all have fiber :) -- Jon mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Thursday, August 1, 2002, 9:31:50 PM, you wrote: JvD Sean A Corfield wrote: On Thursday, August 1, 2002, at 06:14 , Jochem van Dieten wrote: Not necessarily. Multicast could very well be the real bandwidth saver here (and Flash doesn't support it). Read about the FlashCom Server: http://www.macromedia.com/software/flashcom/ JvD I tried the following: JvD http://search.atomz.com/search/?sp-a=sp1001395bsp-p=anysp-q=multicast JvD Please enlighten me. JvD Jochem __ Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
I agree from the standpoint that, to ramp up a development team to develop in Flash as a primary UI does take some time, and thus some dollars as well. I too, agree that it is a little early for full adoption of Flash for UI for everyone. However, those that are the strong early adopters with good Flash developers, I encourage continual development in Flash. This is what drives the refinement of the product. Our development/creative teams are constantly coming up with new ways to leverage Flash as a useful asset in a project, but only as it makes sense to the client and the budget. Some clients, the cost is simply too high. Others, that may not be the case. --Paul Paul W. Wille [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer --- ISITE Design, Inc. -- Senior Programmer www.isitedesign.com 615 SW Broadway, Suite 200 Portland, OR 97205 503.221.9860 x110 503.221.9865 -Original Message- From: Paris Lundis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thu 8/1/2002 5:43 PM To: CF-Talk Cc: Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? cost of development alone may be the biggest deterrent... in our world its: interface (graphic) content (text) html applications (cf) clients want to pay only for the HTML :) the apps have to be done cheaply, and quickly... thus CF... Interface is always an issue... modifying Photoshop designs to cross browser implemented HTML is a pain in the arse as it is... Can only wonder how expensive Flash would get... because now you add a new layer of behaviors, many multiples of design and round trip interaction and tracking... lots of stuff... Flash should be proximate to CD Rom development... The average CD Rom development costs what these days? -paris -Original Message- From: Chad Gray [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 12:30 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? Try to sell the clients on the costs of developing the flash. If you count up the hours. Flash is NOT cheap. If you count up the hours maintaining flash... It is REALLY not cheap. My .02 from experience. -Original Message- From: Bonnie E. Betts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 7:16 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? Is it me, or has anyone else noticed there's a REALLY strong push for = Flash lately at all the CFUGs and conferences?? Is there any particular = reason for this? I like Flash - don't get me wrong. But I view it as a GUI frill that I = doubt I can sell to my clients who want a functional business = application. Anyone here can tell me why/how I could sell them Flash = which would be over and above CF development? Bonnie E. Betts [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.bettsIT.com 703.508.9766 __ Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
Well cost of development will depend alot upon who is doing the development. I look at Flash development just as I look upon coding in CF. You make user interfaces and modules for the application and break them apart into snippets that can be used elsewhere in the application. If component x is done properly, then that same component can be used elsewhere with only a small modification. You cannot expect someone who is a beginner in flash to be able to do this though, and in order for a company to say We want flash they will need a experienced and seasoned veteran in order to keep the cost down. Douglas Brown Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Paris Lundis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 6:43 PM Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? cost of development alone may be the biggest deterrent... in our world its: interface (graphic) content (text) html applications (cf) clients want to pay only for the HTML :) the apps have to be done cheaply, and quickly... thus CF... Interface is always an issue... modifying Photoshop designs to cross browser implemented HTML is a pain in the arse as it is... Can only wonder how expensive Flash would get... because now you add a new layer of behaviors, many multiples of design and round trip interaction and tracking... lots of stuff... Flash should be proximate to CD Rom development... The average CD Rom development costs what these days? -paris -Original Message- From: Chad Gray [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 12:30 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? Try to sell the clients on the costs of developing the flash. If you count up the hours. Flash is NOT cheap. If you count up the hours maintaining flash... It is REALLY not cheap. My .02 from experience. -Original Message- From: Bonnie E. Betts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 7:16 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? Is it me, or has anyone else noticed there's a REALLY strong push for = Flash lately at all the CFUGs and conferences?? Is there any particular = reason for this? I like Flash - don't get me wrong. But I view it as a GUI frill that I = doubt I can sell to my clients who want a functional business = application. Anyone here can tell me why/how I could sell them Flash = which would be over and above CF development? Bonnie E. Betts [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.bettsIT.com 703.508.9766 __ Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
That's my point... Flash developers. I'm talking about the need for Flash / CFMX developers to be _1_ person. This isn't necessary. I'm probably never going to be proficient with Flash, but I can work with a Flash developer right now to build the back-end for a Flash front-end. And this strengthens my original point, I think - most web developers (most developers, in any category, I imagine) aren't especially good at designing usable interfaces. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ voice: (202) 797-5496 fax: (202) 797-5444 __ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
Todd wrote: Not necessarily. Multicast could very well be the real bandwidth saver here (and Flash doesn't support it). Correct me if I'm wrong, but ... isn't multicast = Flash Communication Server? Multicast is a protocol that allows a server to send out 1 stream to many recipients at the same time. The hard work is distributed to all the switches and routers along the way and is not done by the server itself. The switches and routers remember which clients requested the stream and duplicate the input from the server to all the necessary outputs. So it is really an extremely powerfull one-to-many technology. Think serving a few hundred 1.5 Mbit/s MPEG-1 streams through a PC (I think it had a 10 Mbit NIC) and you get a picture :) I am not aware of FCS supporting multicast. The search results from the MM website when searching for multicast certainly don't suggest so. But of course I hope to be wrong :) If you are interested in multicast, visit http://videolab.uoregon.edu/ for more information and downloads (although you should check with your provider if you are on a multicast enabled network and most streams are 1.5 Mbit/s). Jochem __ Your ad could be here. Monies from ads go to support these lists and provide more resources for the community. http://www.fusionauthority.com/ads.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
I've been wondering lately about the cost of development for Flash...what if there was an alternate way to develop the flash interface using pre-made components? (above and beyond what exists today) Would it be crazy to image writing a web page in a markup language which produced flash? I've always thought the development environment was the biggest hurdle but that could very well be because I'm coming from a programming background and not a designer's... select cfloop query=cities option#city# /cfloop /select In Flash: flash:select id=cityselect cfloop query=cities flash:option#city# /cfloop / flash:select It's getting late, I'm talking crazy... -Original Message- From: Paris Lundis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 9:43 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? cost of development alone may be the biggest deterrent... in our world its: interface (graphic) content (text) html applications (cf) clients want to pay only for the HTML :) the apps have to be done cheaply, and quickly... thus CF... Interface is always an issue... modifying Photoshop designs to cross browser implemented HTML is a pain in the arse as it is... Can only wonder how expensive Flash would get... because now you add a new layer of behaviors, many multiples of design and round trip interaction and tracking... lots of stuff... Flash should be proximate to CD Rom development... The average CD Rom development costs what these days? -paris -Original Message- From: Chad Gray [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 12:30 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? Try to sell the clients on the costs of developing the flash. If you count up the hours. Flash is NOT cheap. If you count up the hours maintaining flash... It is REALLY not cheap. My .02 from experience. -Original Message- From: Bonnie E. Betts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 7:16 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? Is it me, or has anyone else noticed there's a REALLY strong push for = Flash lately at all the CFUGs and conferences?? Is there any particular = reason for this? I like Flash - don't get me wrong. But I view it as a GUI frill that I = doubt I can sell to my clients who want a functional business = application. Anyone here can tell me why/how I could sell them Flash = which would be over and above CF development? Bonnie E. Betts [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.bettsIT.com 703.508.9766 __ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
I agree with that completely!! Usually a developer thinks alot differently than what a designer would. I know very few developers with design skills. I can usually see what looks good, and can come up with a great looking interface, but the time it takes me to do it is 10 times longer than it would take someone with flair for design. Douglas Brown Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Dave Watts [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 7:00 PM Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? That's my point... Flash developers. I'm talking about the need for Flash / CFMX developers to be _1_ person. This isn't necessary. I'm probably never going to be proficient with Flash, but I can work with a Flash developer right now to build the back-end for a Flash front-end. And this strengthens my original point, I think - most web developers (most developers, in any category, I imagine) aren't especially good at designing usable interfaces. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ voice: (202) 797-5496 fax: (202) 797-5444 __ Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
point well said is that why even use Flash any number of solutions via Javascript or other stuff via DHTML... Because, as hard as Flash may be, equivalent DHTML may be much harder - or not possible at all. Try writing a cross-browser drag-and-drop DHTML interface, for example. ... it certainly stops everything I am doing until Flash gets it act moving... which can be a pain in the hind when I am just browsing a site looking for relevant content I think that's a good differentiation you make - Flash isn't really suitable for content. HTML is better for that. Flash, on the other hand, is better for applications in many ways. So, no, Flash isn't an ideal replacement for HTML. They are suitable for different things. But there's no way that you can argue that HTML makes a good application interface. It doesn't. It's a giant step backwards, really, for application interfaces - maybe as good as the best interface functionality of the early 1980s, let's say. Yecch. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ voice: (202) 797-5496 fax: (202) 797-5444 __ Your ad could be here. Monies from ads go to support these lists and provide more resources for the community. http://www.fusionauthority.com/ads.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
I sort of find it amusing sometimes everyone always referring to yahoo as the most succesful site while not meriting it's gargantous marketing budget and first to market appeal. I think it is a bit skewed when people reference it as the most used simply for lack of graphics. Although it may prove that consumers don't demand graphics...Additionally when referencing the internet people mention sites like google, yahoo and such - yet the engines and directories are a completly different animal than the commerce sites and internet apps people are building. To me it is comparing apples to kumqwats(little fruits) I happen to be one of those different breed graphical guys who uses and learned coldfusion to substantially increase my designs and offer better dynamic solutions. While so enthralled at it;s sheer simplicity - now write every site dynamically. As for the flash part - it does and will have major advantages as internet applications. With flash remoting one of my clients was tired of opening the browser to get to his admin section to update tracking information and product information. Made a dynamic icon for him that opens a flash file - in milliseconds - he makes requests or/and or updates database information and site is modified real time. In that case the client could careless about browsers, compatibilies and such - it made him more productive. So often everyone thinks about one side of the puzzle without realizing just a little thought brings out a whole additional side and possibility - Flash does not mean graphical. The app above has one rotating arrow to show it is getting data - I also beleive that this is what others on the list have mentioned and MM is pushing - death to intro's. as for the bandwith thing- Flash applications do not inherently save bandwidth. I see where this is heading. Obviously if flash's interface can be downloaded once - and only the data (content) is being sent back and forth - of course you will save bandwith. Additionally - you ever notice how small flash can compress images. Obviously if a designer chooses to design a new interface or graphical heavy screen or LoadMovie commands - completly loading new .swf's at each user interval - that can be bandwith heavy... BUT if you took the same poor design and converted to html and cfm - I would bet the flash would still be lighter. So from my experience- flash is lighter on bandwith. Jay Miller jon Hall wrote: The way of the future? I remember seeing my first image on a web page on yahoo ages ago...must have been 94-95. Seven years later we just have a bunch more pictures on the web page, and the most successful web site in existence right now still has just one. I'd love to play with Flash...it's a different paradigm than the programmer in me is used to (unlike svg *cough*) though. Flash is successful, and will continue to be, but I think rich clients are just part of the future, and the present, by no means will they be prevalent though. __ Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
Honestly that is the way I think it should be on the back-end of things for flash. If you had components that followed suite with CF then it would be alot more usable for folks like us. As far as the animations and stuff is concerned, that would have to remain the same, but dropdowns and the like should be a little more developer friendly. Douglas Brown Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Stacy Young [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 6:59 PM Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? I've been wondering lately about the cost of development for Flash...what if there was an alternate way to develop the flash interface using pre-made components? (above and beyond what exists today) Would it be crazy to image writing a web page in a markup language which produced flash? I've always thought the development environment was the biggest hurdle but that could very well be because I'm coming from a programming background and not a designer's... select cfloop query=cities option#city# /cfloop /select In Flash: flash:select id=cityselect cfloop query=cities flash:option#city# /cfloop / flash:select It's getting late, I'm talking crazy... -Original Message- From: Paris Lundis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 9:43 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? cost of development alone may be the biggest deterrent... in our world its: interface (graphic) content (text) html applications (cf) clients want to pay only for the HTML :) the apps have to be done cheaply, and quickly... thus CF... Interface is always an issue... modifying Photoshop designs to cross browser implemented HTML is a pain in the arse as it is... Can only wonder how expensive Flash would get... because now you add a new layer of behaviors, many multiples of design and round trip interaction and tracking... lots of stuff... Flash should be proximate to CD Rom development... The average CD Rom development costs what these days? -paris -Original Message- From: Chad Gray [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 12:30 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? Try to sell the clients on the costs of developing the flash. If you count up the hours. Flash is NOT cheap. If you count up the hours maintaining flash... It is REALLY not cheap. My .02 from experience. -Original Message- From: Bonnie E. Betts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 7:16 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? Is it me, or has anyone else noticed there's a REALLY strong push for = Flash lately at all the CFUGs and conferences?? Is there any particular = reason for this? I like Flash - don't get me wrong. But I view it as a GUI frill that I = doubt I can sell to my clients who want a functional business = application. Anyone here can tell me why/how I could sell them Flash = which would be over and above CF development? Bonnie E. Betts [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.bettsIT.com 703.508.9766 __ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
Todd wrote: At 03:31 AM 8/2/2002 +0200, you wrote: Sean A Corfield wrote: Read about the FlashCom Server: http://www.macromedia.com/software/flashcom/ I tried the following: http://search.atomz.com/search/?sp-a=sp1001395bsp-p=anysp-q=multicast Please enlighten me. Just follow that Link Sean gave you Jochem, don't know what rock you been living under, but it's been out now for about 3-4 weeks. May I suggest you check the archives of this list for the announcement? You will see that I am very much aware of FCS being out. Check out Mike Chamber's blog chat: http://radio.weblogs.com/0106797/ I have run that page and every linked page through a search and none returned a hit for multicast. In fact, they all talk about increased bandwidth usage with more viewers, while the whole point of multicast is that the bandwidth usage does not increaese with more viewers. If FCS supports multicast Macromedia should be promoting it much more. Jochem PS Not to mention that if you broadcast webradio through multicast you are only sending out 1 stream which makes the royalties a lot cheaper :) __ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
agree about that interface point and developers... it holds true... it seems creative and analytical/math/programmatic mindsets are a bit at odds and seldom in the same package... As far as process Dave, how much different is it working with a Flash UI person than another team person who maybe was doing the UI in HTML? same general requirements and process? Paris Lundis Founder Areaindex, L.L.C. http://www.areaindex.com http://www.pubcrawler.com (p) 1-212-655-4477 [finding the future in the past, passing the future in the present] [connecting people, places and things] -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 10:00 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? That's my point... Flash developers. I'm talking about the need for Flash / CFMX developers to be _1_ person. This isn't necessary. I'm probably never going to be proficient with Flash, but I can work with a Flash developer right now to build the back-end for a Flash front-end. And this strengthens my original point, I think - most web developers (most developers, in any category, I imagine) aren't especially good at designing usable interfaces. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ voice: (202) 797-5496 fax: (202) 797-5444 __ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
sorry - don't want to start a bicker - but on this one -I personally wouldn't higher a flash developer that could not design a UI that meets business requirements while being a little light and bandwidth conscious. no ill intentions. jay miller Matt Liotta wrote: That is absolutely not true. A good Flash developer will create a UI that meets the business requirements of the application and allows a user to easily make use of it. That may or may not use more bandwidth than an html based application with the same business requirements. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Wille, Paul [ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 5:33 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? And you are making assumptions as well here. A *GOOD* Flash developer would design the Flash interface to be lightweight, preload once (or as minimal as possible), and minimize the size of his/her Flash movies. No different is the argument that CFML is slow. Those of us that know CFML know that any poor developer can write bad CFML that will inherently be slow. I fail to understand your point of view on this. I think you can see where I am coming from. Paul W. Wille[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer --- ISITE Design, Inc. -- Senior Programmer www.isitedesign.com http://www.isitedesign.com 615 SW Broadway, Suite 200 Portland, OR 97205 503.221.9860 x110 503.221.9865 -Original Message- From: Matt Liotta [ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 5:26 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? If your whole site is in Flash it loads once. The Flash movie is equal to one or two rich HTML pages in size. Perform more than two functions on your site and you're then passing less data than you would via HTML. That's the simplified version of how it works. I doubt Talkers really cares more about it than that, unless they're actually building an app. Then it's worth it to go into the specifics. You are making assumptions. Flash gives you the ability to do things you couldn't do before in html, which could required higher bandwidth than the equivalent application using html. While the extra bandwidth may be worth it for a better experience, the extra bandwidth is still there. Flash applications do not inherently save bandwidth. -Matt __ Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
yeah us CF folks sure love our markup environment... from my end, text editing is darn efficient... Things like Photoshop, DreamWeaver, Flash, etc. all have new fangled interfaces, Photoshop being the least of difficulty UI wise... At any rate, I need to check Flash MX out and see if the UI for creation has become any more logical for the programmer type... seemed too interface laden to hop in quickly and make a fun run at it... -paris -Original Message- From: Stacy Young [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 10:00 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? I've been wondering lately about the cost of development for Flash...what if there was an alternate way to develop the flash interface using pre-made components? (above and beyond what exists today) Would it be crazy to image writing a web page in a markup language which produced flash? I've always thought the development environment was the biggest hurdle but that could very well be because I'm coming from a programming background and not a designer's... select cfloop query=cities option#city# /cfloop /select In Flash: flash:select id=cityselect cfloop query=cities flash:option#city# /cfloop / flash:select It's getting late, I'm talking crazy... -Original Message- From: Paris Lundis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 9:43 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? cost of development alone may be the biggest deterrent... in our world its: interface (graphic) content (text) html applications (cf) clients want to pay only for the HTML :) the apps have to be done cheaply, and quickly... thus CF... Interface is always an issue... modifying Photoshop designs to cross browser implemented HTML is a pain in the arse as it is... Can only wonder how expensive Flash would get... because now you add a new layer of behaviors, many multiples of design and round trip interaction and tracking... lots of stuff... Flash should be proximate to CD Rom development... The average CD Rom development costs what these days? -paris -Original Message- From: Chad Gray [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 12:30 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? Try to sell the clients on the costs of developing the flash. If you count up the hours. Flash is NOT cheap. If you count up the hours maintaining flash... It is REALLY not cheap. My .02 from experience. -Original Message- From: Bonnie E. Betts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 7:16 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? Is it me, or has anyone else noticed there's a REALLY strong push for = Flash lately at all the CFUGs and conferences?? Is there any particular = reason for this? I like Flash - don't get me wrong. But I view it as a GUI frill that I = doubt I can sell to my clients who want a functional business = application. Anyone here can tell me why/how I could sell them Flash = which would be over and above CF development? Bonnie E. Betts [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.bettsIT.com 703.508.9766 __ Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
You forgot.. Your client wants that dancing monkey to crawl across the screen, pick up the bannanna, and eat it. Code that in loops. :-) Oh.. And next month the dancing monkey has to be a fish that eats a worm. -Original Message- From: Stacy Young [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 7:00 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? I've been wondering lately about the cost of development for Flash...what if there was an alternate way to develop the flash interface using pre-made components? (above and beyond what exists today) Would it be crazy to image writing a web page in a markup language which produced flash? I've always thought the development environment was the biggest hurdle but that could very well be because I'm coming from a programming background and not a designer's... select cfloop query=cities option#city# /cfloop /select In Flash: flash:select id=cityselect cfloop query=cities flash:option#city# /cfloop / flash:select It's getting late, I'm talking crazy... -Original Message- From: Paris Lundis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 9:43 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? cost of development alone may be the biggest deterrent... in our world its: interface (graphic) content (text) html applications (cf) clients want to pay only for the HTML :) the apps have to be done cheaply, and quickly... thus CF... Interface is always an issue... modifying Photoshop designs to cross browser implemented HTML is a pain in the arse as it is... Can only wonder how expensive Flash would get... because now you add a new layer of behaviors, many multiples of design and round trip interaction and tracking... lots of stuff... Flash should be proximate to CD Rom development... The average CD Rom development costs what these days? -paris -Original Message- From: Chad Gray [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 12:30 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? Try to sell the clients on the costs of developing the flash. If you count up the hours. Flash is NOT cheap. If you count up the hours maintaining flash... It is REALLY not cheap. My .02 from experience. -Original Message- From: Bonnie E. Betts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 7:16 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? Is it me, or has anyone else noticed there's a REALLY strong push for = Flash lately at all the CFUGs and conferences?? Is there any particular = reason for this? I like Flash - don't get me wrong. But I view it as a GUI frill that I = doubt I can sell to my clients who want a functional business = application. Anyone here can tell me why/how I could sell them Flash = which would be over and above CF development? Bonnie E. Betts [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.bettsIT.com 703.508.9766 __ Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
I agree totally Dave... You always have the good insight... DHTML, JS, and even Flash still aren't rapid...That's per se a problem... Modular, it is perhaps.. still not ColdFusion modular I suspect... Flash is universal in operation (mostly it seems)... Flash has a great potential for the CD rom to the web sort of things... those who use it for web content beware, I suspect major backlash will start happening... Like the other day I was at weather.com... trying to see what the weather was going to be... simple task right... not when a thing starts moving across my screen... and before that, the wait of the Flash starting... I imagine, turning Flash on and off selectively via browser or other setting is going to become more common as it should...who knows, maybe it already has... I was recently looking at some mid 1980s stuff I wrote for my commodore when I was programming BBS software. I wrote a bunch of code that effectively did pseudo web stuff... at that time, sending a GIF over a slow 1200 or 2400 baud modem... Message forums were created back then too by me... nothing radically different... content still... Only benefit I see today is this multiple user environment we lacked back then for live time interaction of groups.. Hell if I had a 300 MHz Commodore and a 56k modem it probably would have been built... Point here is, not a whole bunch has changed... Sure more graphics, more bloat, faster processors, more bandwidth... Same general functions... Larger audience... Nothing radically new... UI is 'seemingly' important... well your clients will tell you that junk all day long...Heck you might even believe it... The power is in the information, the enabler is the application... Ask the folks at General Motors who in the early 1990s hired design specialists... They claim they can show not tangible benefit or loss attributable... basically, in the big sense of things design matters very little. There are exceptions in markets that stand out... but as an average, people still carry paper bags for lunch, not Eames designed uber cool lunch boxes... People live in normal houses, not Real World bachelor pads.. People drive Ford Taurus and Honda Accord's not Lamborghini's... Design is a subtle art at best.. Flash holds great promise as a portal, a viewer for all devices... Providing a one creation interface that runs on phones, PDAs, computers, refrigerators, etc. is by far the most attractive feature of Flash, bar none. Paris Lundis Founder Areaindex, L.L.C. http://www.areaindex.com http://www.pubcrawler.com (p) 1-212-655-4477 [finding the future in the past, passing the future in the present] [connecting people, places and things] -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 10:07 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? point well said is that why even use Flash any number of solutions via Javascript or other stuff via DHTML... Because, as hard as Flash may be, equivalent DHTML may be much harder - or not possible at all. Try writing a cross-browser drag-and-drop DHTML interface, for example. ... it certainly stops everything I am doing until Flash gets it act moving... which can be a pain in the hind when I am just browsing a site looking for relevant content I think that's a good differentiation you make - Flash isn't really suitable for content. HTML is better for that. Flash, on the other hand, is better for applications in many ways. So, no, Flash isn't an ideal replacement for HTML. They are suitable for different things. But there's no way that you can argue that HTML makes a good application interface. It doesn't. It's a giant step backwards, really, for application interfaces - maybe as good as the best interface functionality of the early 1980s, let's say. Yecch. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ voice: (202) 797-5496 fax: (202) 797-5444 __ Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
well, im a graphic designer, turned coder, over the past 4 years, started with ihtml, and made the natural progression to the dark side :) CF BABY! now, flash, thats a different story, 6 year or so ago, i used an off brand app called Future Splash Animator and with that we made a little red ball move across the screen.wooopty doo...it was cool, but kinda really hard to make much else happen. so we left it. lo and behold, on the scene, FLASH, a new thing i guess it was macromedia who bought some of the something from future splash animator, and moved forward with FLASH. anyway, it has always puzzled me, who their target Flash Developer isi mean, i have 9 years of web development experience, i was programming basic in 3rd grade, cf for about a year now, and graphics for all of the 9 yearsand i still have a lot of trouble doing anything more than some multiscene intro movies, with buttons and some database to cf to flash type stuff, but other than that, it would take me giving up my social life to truly understand the inner complexities of it, and master CF at the same time...and im not really ready to do that, yet :) so, i just cant really figure out how to cost justify the time with the learning curve, some serious gui/ide changes would make life a little easier, i think? ok, ive given .4 cents this week, almost at my quota tony -Original Message- From: Chad Gray [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 1:03 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? You forgot.. Your client wants that dancing monkey to crawl across the screen, pick up the bannanna, and eat it. Code that in loops. :-) Oh.. And next month the dancing monkey has to be a fish that eats a worm. -Original Message- From: Stacy Young [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 7:00 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? I've been wondering lately about the cost of development for Flash...what if there was an alternate way to develop the flash interface using pre-made components? (above and beyond what exists today) Would it be crazy to image writing a web page in a markup language which produced flash? I've always thought the development environment was the biggest hurdle but that could very well be because I'm coming from a programming background and not a designer's... select cfloop query=cities option#city# /cfloop /select In Flash: flash:select id=cityselect cfloop query=cities flash:option#city# /cfloop / flash:select It's getting late, I'm talking crazy... -Original Message- From: Paris Lundis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 9:43 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? cost of development alone may be the biggest deterrent... in our world its: interface (graphic) content (text) html applications (cf) clients want to pay only for the HTML :) the apps have to be done cheaply, and quickly... thus CF... Interface is always an issue... modifying Photoshop designs to cross browser implemented HTML is a pain in the arse as it is... Can only wonder how expensive Flash would get... because now you add a new layer of behaviors, many multiples of design and round trip interaction and tracking... lots of stuff... Flash should be proximate to CD Rom development... The average CD Rom development costs what these days? -paris -Original Message- From: Chad Gray [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 12:30 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? Try to sell the clients on the costs of developing the flash. If you count up the hours. Flash is NOT cheap. If you count up the hours maintaining flash... It is REALLY not cheap. My .02 from experience. -Original Message- From: Bonnie E. Betts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 7:16 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? Is it me, or has anyone else noticed there's a REALLY strong push for = Flash lately at all the CFUGs and conferences?? Is there any particular = reason for this? I like Flash - don't get me wrong. But I view it as a GUI frill that I = doubt I can sell to my clients who want a functional business = application. Anyone here can tell me why/how I could sell them Flash = which would be over and above CF development? Bonnie E. Betts [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.bettsIT.com 703.508.9766 __ Your ad could be here. Monies from ads go to support these lists and provide more resources for the community. http://www.fusionauthority.com/ads.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm
Re: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
Jon Hall wrote: Forgive me if I am wrong, but multicast seems like it wouldn't work on the internet at large. The server still has to send the packets somewhere. If the server sends one stream to the broadcast address of my subnet, my cable or dsl subnet is going to be flooded by the traffic. That is where additional protocols such as IGMP snooping come in. Switches selectively choose to which ports to duplicate the multicast, it is not like normal broadcast traffic that gets duped to every port. I definitely can see applications in a business setting though where you have the ability to configure the network so that multicast would work very nicely though. Maybe if the ISP's did some fancy subnetting, but getting isps to get organized on anything wont happen... Some ISP's are more multicast minded as others. For me, it will be one of the deciding factors when I need to get a new ISP. Multicast just seems like the ip version of broadcast tv to me. Maybe when we all have fiber :) You really don't need fiber for it, 2 Mbit is more than enough for VHS quality. And it is indeed very much like broadcast TV over IP (very nice to have the World Championship Soccer in a little window on the side). Jochem __ Your ad could be here. Monies from ads go to support these lists and provide more resources for the community. http://www.fusionauthority.com/ads.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
yeah sounds like your client better be the king of the apes to afford that much change in Flash :) -p -Original Message- From: Chad Gray [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 1:03 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? You forgot.. Your client wants that dancing monkey to crawl across the screen, pick up the bannanna, and eat it. Code that in loops. :-) Oh.. And next month the dancing monkey has to be a fish that eats a worm. -Original Message- From: Stacy Young [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 7:00 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? I've been wondering lately about the cost of development for Flash...what if there was an alternate way to develop the flash interface using pre-made components? (above and beyond what exists today) Would it be crazy to image writing a web page in a markup language which produced flash? I've always thought the development environment was the biggest hurdle but that could very well be because I'm coming from a programming background and not a designer's... select cfloop query=cities option#city# /cfloop /select In Flash: flash:select id=cityselect cfloop query=cities flash:option#city# /cfloop / flash:select It's getting late, I'm talking crazy... -Original Message- From: Paris Lundis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 9:43 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? cost of development alone may be the biggest deterrent... in our world its: interface (graphic) content (text) html applications (cf) clients want to pay only for the HTML :) the apps have to be done cheaply, and quickly... thus CF... Interface is always an issue... modifying Photoshop designs to cross browser implemented HTML is a pain in the arse as it is... Can only wonder how expensive Flash would get... because now you add a new layer of behaviors, many multiples of design and round trip interaction and tracking... lots of stuff... Flash should be proximate to CD Rom development... The average CD Rom development costs what these days? -paris -Original Message- From: Chad Gray [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 12:30 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? Try to sell the clients on the costs of developing the flash. If you count up the hours. Flash is NOT cheap. If you count up the hours maintaining flash... It is REALLY not cheap. My .02 from experience. -Original Message- From: Bonnie E. Betts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 7:16 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda? Is it me, or has anyone else noticed there's a REALLY strong push for = Flash lately at all the CFUGs and conferences?? Is there any particular = reason for this? I like Flash - don't get me wrong. But I view it as a GUI frill that I = doubt I can sell to my clients who want a functional business = application. Anyone here can tell me why/how I could sell them Flash = which would be over and above CF development? Bonnie E. Betts [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.bettsIT.com 703.508.9766 __ Your ad could be here. Monies from ads go to support these lists and provide more resources for the community. http://www.fusionauthority.com/ads.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
it seems creative and analytical/math/programmatic mindsets are a bit at odds and seldom in the same package... I think you're making a mistake in your division, there, though. I'm not especially good with math, myself, but the better Flash programmers tend to be - moving things about the screen typically takes more math than writing business logic does. As far as process Dave, how much different is it working with a Flash UI person than another team person who maybe was doing the UI in HTML? same general requirements and process? I think it's just as easy, myself. In fact, it's been my experience that while an interface designer might write the HTML that you use as a starting point, as a CF developer you usually end up rewriting most of it (while getting the same sort of effect. On the other hand, when you're working with a Flash front-end, you're out of the interface loop entirely (which is a good place to be, I think). I think it's also important to differentiate interface design from Flash programming, too - you don't have to be good at both, really, and I think that these tasks are better done by two people who specialize in those tasks, rather than one person. This goes back to the creative/analytical division you outlined above - this division does exist, but the Flash programmer needn't be on the creative side of the divide. In the ideal world, I think the information architect or business process analyst figures out what the interface (and the back-end implementation) needs to do, the database designer figures out the optimal data design, the interface designer figures out the optimal interface for the task, the Flash programmer implements the GUI, the CF developer implements the business logic, the DBA implements the database and stored procedures. Naturally, in the real world, there's likely to be some overlap, but as things become more complex and more serious, the need for specialization increases. This is true in any industry; why should ours be any different? There will always be a need for generalists, but that need should decrease over time. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ voice: (202) 797-5496 fax: (202) 797-5444 __ Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Does Macromedia have some current strong Flash agenda?
You are making assumptions. Flash gives you the ability to do things you couldn't do before in html, which could required higher bandwidth than the equivalent application using html. While the extra bandwidth may be worth it for a better experience, the extra bandwidth is still there. You are making an invalid comparison. If you're doing something in Flash that you couldn't do in HTML, then the applications aren't really equivalent, are they? Flash applications do not inherently save bandwidth. No. I would argue that well-written Flash applications tend to be less bandwidth-intensive than well-written HTML-based applications, though. The document model of HTML just isn't well-suited for use as an application interface. You can go through contortions of this model to make it more suitable for that use, but you're putting lipstick on a pig, if you know what I mean. I don't think that Flash is the answer to every interface question, but I know for sure that HTML isn't the answer, either. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ voice: (202) 797-5496 fax: (202) 797-5444 __ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
