FLUXLIST: Disgrace
It ia time this buckoff gives up his ownership platitudes and steps down as listowner. He is genuine antiflux. From: allen bukoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: FLUXLIST: (II) a few thoughts (addendum) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Loop-Detect: 1 Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Precedence: bulk Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-URL: http://www.fluxus.org/FLUXLIST HAS ANYONE EVER BEEN KICKED OFF/BANNED FROM FLUXLIST? Yes. One person. Make that two.
Re: FLUXLIST: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Joseph McElroy
Dear Bertrand, I have never attacked Ken Friedman's person on this list or off the list. Only explained how he was seen by Fluxus artists. Eric Bertrand Clavez wrote: Shit happens sometimes. But this one seems quite private, and I don't see why it has to happen here. Further, since Ken Friedman/Eric Andersen's flame, I thought those kind of personal attacks were supposed to be bannished from the list. I guess there's no way to avoid those posts (even if Tamas sometimes thinks he's censored). why not try something else? Bertrand - Original Message - From: matt benson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 8:53 AM Subject: Re: FLUXLIST: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Joseph McElroy does this banter happen often? (i don't want to get involved...just commenting on its entertainment value)
Re: FLUXLIST: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Joseph McElroy
Dear Bertrand, No, I don't think I had strong exchanges with him. I just gave the list some quite ordinary information about the network. Stuff that everybody from the Fluxus network already knows. Then Ken Friedman got nervous and started running in all possible directions banging his head into the maximum number of walls. To me, - and I hope to others too, - it was all rather amusing. Thanks for great time in Paris. It was all very well organized and with high spirits. Copenhagen was fantastic with Hannah Higiins, her new book and Fluxfilms, long version. I will see you in Paris in January sometimes around the 23rd. But I guess all this belongs off list. Bests, Eric Bertrand Clavez wrote: Dear Eric, You're right. But you did had strong exchanges with him, even though it was nothing like these ones How was it in Copenhaggen? Bests Bertrand - Original Message - From: Eric Andersen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 11:58 AM Subject: Re: FLUXLIST: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Joseph McElroy Dear Bertrand, I have never attacked Ken Friedman's person on this list or off the list. Only explained how he was seen by Fluxus artists. Eric Bertrand Clavez wrote: Shit happens sometimes. But this one seems quite private, and I don't see why it has to happen here. Further, since Ken Friedman/Eric Andersen's flame, I thought those kind of personal attacks were supposed to be bannished from the list. I guess there's no way to avoid those posts (even if Tamas sometimes thinks he's censored). why not try something else? Bertrand - Original Message - From: matt benson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 8:53 AM Subject: Re: FLUXLIST: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Joseph McElroy does this banter happen often? (i don't want to get involved...just commenting on its entertainment value)
Re: FLUXLIST: Guitorre
Dear Carol, Well, not that sleepy - visiting other spaces. But thanks for attention. I can recommend a visit to the MAC in Marseille. Bests, Eric Carol Starr wrote: ahh, the sleeping dragon has awakened bests, carol Eric Andersen wrote: Never mind Tamas. This Sol Nte is always completely out of touch with this Fluxus topic. A real farce. Great summer here in Marseille. Eric St.Auby Tamas wrote: H, On Mon, 15 Jul 2002, Sol Nte wrote: ArtnAnts wrote: I have a question for you- when is an artist a fluxus artist? I know this one: When Eric Andersen says so! cheers, Sol. Eric Andersen never said who is a Fluxus artist. He said who is not a Fluxus artist. H, a -- carol starr taos, new mexico, usa [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: http://www.CarolStarr.net
FLUXLIST: [Fwd: Returned mail: User unknown]
---BeginMessage--- The original message was received at Mon, 15 Jul 2002 17:10:56 -0500 from out4.prserv.net [32.97.166.34] - The following addresses had permanent fatal errors - [EMAIL PROTECTED] (expanded from: [EMAIL PROTECTED]) - Transcript of session follows - mail.local: unknown name: feniks 550 [EMAIL PROTECTED]... User unknown Reporting-MTA: dns; mx1.feniks.com Received-From-MTA: DNS; out4.prserv.net Arrival-Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 17:10:56 -0500 Final-Recipient: RFC822; [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Actual-Recipient: RFC822; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Action: failed Status: 5.1.1 Last-Attempt-Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 17:10:56 -0500 ---BeginMessage--- Dear Carol, Well, not that sleepy - visiting other spaces. But thanks for attention. I can recommend a visit to the MAC in Marseille. Bests, Eric Carol Starr wrote: ahh, the sleeping dragon has awakened bests, carol Eric Andersen wrote: Never mind Tamas. This Sol Nte is always completely out of touch with this Fluxus topic. A real farce. ---End Message--- ---End Message---
Re: FLUXLIST: The real old thing
Again there seem to be some misunderstandings around I have never told a person that he could not be an artist or fluxus of even a fluxus artist Initially we never used that term Now we use it on and off because the world seems to insist The interesting thing is not if you are an artist or fluxus, - but why you want to be so What do you want to achieve from these conjurations Why do you need to adhere to something? Why is identification with some kind of mythology so important to you? The Flux List however is phoney because in relation to the term Fluxus it primarily deals with ignorance, unawareness and misconception Among the persons who founded it all the list is considered silly and an unintelligent joke That's why nobody from the founding group ever address themselves to the list A part from me, who sometimes are quite amused by phoniness Concerning The Red Square Event, mentioned in Emmett's book, everybody was extremely amused, - even Maciunas in the end Everybody was expelled and invited again and again Funny enough Sol found this event Excellent not so long time ago Sol Nte wrote: Eric Andersen may be an important artist but from my experience his personality leaves a lot to be desired As anyone who has been on the list for over a year is well aware Eric does his I'm real Fluxus, you're not bit about every 6 months, what he doesn't say but which anyone can read about in the many books on Fluxus (eg in Mr Fluxus, edited by Emmett Williams, ISBN: 0500974616) is that George Maciunas expelled him from Fluxus for being precisely as annoying and childish as he often is on this list Why Eric has to put down Don and Allen's contribution to Fluxus I don't know As far as I can see their contribution has been substantial, fun and accessible to all which I consider pretty admirable Whilst it is great for people to be able to attend reunion gig fluxus every once in a while, when the original members perform, for many of us the global accessibility of Fluxlist, the internet and mail art provides a way to become involved in the Fluxus tradition that is both interesting and enjoyable This opportunity is not provided by the Eric Andersens of this world but by people you've probably never heard of who you may encounter on the web or via mail art project documentation and who work tirelessly to create and maintain an international network of cultural workers that provides a form of art activity that can exist freely outside of the art establishment/gallery system and be truly open and invite participation from anyone interested This is the meaningful legacy of all 20th Century avant-garde currents not just Fluxus cheers, Sol
Re: FLUXLIST: The real old thing
That's why nobody from the founding group ever address themselves to the list A part from me, who sometimes are quite amused by phoniness address is present tense In general the artists who participated in the first festivals are considered to form the founding group It is interesting to see how much energy is put into keeping up a fantasy
Re: FLUXLIST: The real old thing
The amount of ignorance on This Phoney Flux List is amazing. A person I don't know, Allen Bukoff, - I guess from the mid-West, - published the 24th of Feb.on the list an article in where he connects me to Ken Friedman in at least 2 ways. Since this is absolutely not true, I responded to the list adding that I was not sure fully to understand why his name was mentioned and that the original Fluxus artists never saw him as an artist, but only as an agent promoting something we would rather want him not to promote. For people who are interested in genuine information about Fluxus, I can recommend the newly published catalogue from Museo Villa Croce in Genova. The name of the catalogue is The Fluxus Constellation and the ISBN number is 88-87262-20-9. You will find a number of substantial articles in this catalogue, - among these by the top Fluxus scholars in Europe and US such as Hannah Higgins, Henry Martin, Gino di Maggio, Francesco Conz etc. Don Boyd wrote: ERIC, WHO MENTIONED KEN? I THINK YOU DID.-DON _ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
Re: FLUXLIST: The real old thing
There is no definition and there is no rigid frame. But not everything is Fluxus. Ignorance certainly not. For people who are interested in genuine information about Fluxus, I can recommend the newly published catalogue from Museo Villa Croce in Genova. The name of the catalogue is The Fluxus Constellation and the ISBN number is 88-87262-20-9. You will find a number of substantial articles in this catalogue, - among these by the top Fluxus scholars in Europe and US such as Hannah Higgins, Henry Martin, Gino di Maggio, Francesco Conz etc. Also I can recommend: http://www.performance-festival-odense.dk / click: ABOUT / click What is ..? Dan Holmes wrote: Friends, artists, and fellow fakers, Somebody please be kind enough to tell me what Fluxus really is. Clearly, I must've been mistaken, as there is plenty of hostility and negativity concerning false Fluxus and who is more Fluxus than someone else. Mr. Andersen, I acknowledge your history with Fluxus and I understand that you are a well established artist in the Fluxus field. Maybe you would be the one to provide a detailed and rigid form of what art must be to be defined as Fluxus, and more importantly, why, as you seem to be the only person who sees Fluxus in any sort of limited scope. As for the rest of us dreamers, who feel what we've been doing and discussing is still art, maybe it's time we came up with a name for ourselves. If we're not Fluxus, then dammit, we're still something. Dan Holmes
Re: FLUXLIST: Eric Anderson?
Because something is not included it is not necessarily excluded. There are many more positions. I will suggest that you read the sources I have referred to. Dan Holmes wrote: Both points are well represented here. Thank you for the objective point of view. I concede that Eric Andersen is (was) an influential fluxus artist, so it's silly (to me, at least) to continue to argue that point. But, in response to Mr. Andersen's earlier post, if fluxus truly doesn't have any definition or frame, how could anything possibly be excluded from it? Therefore, it stands to reason that Ken Friedman is, in fact, Fluxus. >From there, we can conclude that pigs will fly, cows will come home, the heavens will open up and devour us all, the apocalypse is upon us and only Maciunas will have been saved. More accurately, I think Owen Smith had the right idea in his post providing a good explanation (if not a definition) of what fluxus was and how it came to be. But enough; I talk too much. Dan At 05:44 PM 2/27/2002 -0500, you wrote: According to: 'fluxus, the most radical and experimental art movement of the sixties' (harry ruhe, 1979): 'Eric Andersen (Denmark, 1942) studied music, worked as a pianist and from 1962 performed his compositions during many fluxus manifestations, in Denmark as well as other countries. (...) Andersen, who produced many language and mail art pieces, may be considered as one of the leading conceptual artists in Denmark.' Still, I think that everyone has the right to call themselves fluxus artists if they want to. It's so childish to go: nah nah, I'm a REAL fluxus person and you aren't!!! xo maaike :: the institute of improbable interaction :: --- On Wed 02/27, Christopher J Mulder wrote: > Since I am relatively new to FLUXUS and the FLUXLIST...could someone > please explain who Eric Anderson is and what he did?...It would be > greatly appreciated. > > Christohpher > >
Re: FLUXLIST: The real old thing
That's exactly what I meant with The Silly Boys. I am not sure I fully understand why Ken Friedman has to be mentioned again. As far as I remember, I have never attacked him. I have corrected a number of mistakes he has made and offered some information to the list. Also as far as I remember, I have never claimed that he wasn't an artist. I have just informed the list that the original Fluxus artists never saw him as an artist, but only as an agent promoting something we would rather want him not to promote. Don Boyd wrote: Dear Allen and listers, Right on, Right on and then some! You said it well. I don't claim to be a Fluxus scholar either, but I know Alison Knowles seems to like Eric. Maybe it's the personal charm as you said. I woiuld like to know more. -Don Boyd. Director of Flusu West (A title approved by Maciunas. What is Eric's title. Let's make one for him!) _ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
Re: FLUXLIST: informations
Dear Grasil, Yes, that was fine days in Genova. And the show stays on for several months. Lots of things will happen in many places for the coming months. Some not far away from Bologna. Send your E-mail address to me and I will keep you informed. Don't let these silly boys from The Mid-West and West US confuse you. They have noting to do with Fluxus. They are entirely phony. Just read the title: Director, Fluxus West. Utterly ridiculous. What you saw in Genova was the real thing. Keep in touch, Eric Andersen Don Boyd wrote: Dear Grasil, I don't know of any upcoming Fluxus events but if you keep up with Fluxlist, most events are announced there. If you want to write me at any time, that is also fine. Would like to hear from you! -Don Boyd, Director, Fluxus West, 75 S. Main St., Fredericktown, OH 43019 USA or [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
Re: FLUXLIST: two emils
Dear Tamas, We will for sure change Horror Stories as Permanent Refugees in Genova. Some strange character changed my last E-mail to the SillyList for some obscure reason. So, here it is again in the excellent version. All the bests Eric THE FLUXUS CONSTELLATION Villa Croce Museum of Contemporary Art Via Jacopo Ruffini 3 -Genoa 15 February-13 June 2002 Opening hours: - Entrance fee: - Press conference: 14 February 11.30 a.m. Opening: 14 February 6.00 p.m. Press office: Simonetta Menini - Genoa City Council External Relations Office tel + 39 010 557111 e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cristina Pariset (office) - Milan tel + 39 02 4812584 e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] INFO: Villa Croce Museum of Contemporary Art - Via Jacopo Ruffini 3- 16128 Genova (Italy) Tel.+ 39-010 580069 - 010 585772 ; Fax +39-010 532482 E.mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sponsors: Alitalia, Friends of Villa Croce Association, Genoa Chamber of Commerce, Dati e Strategie S.R.L., ICAT Food, Porto Antico s.p.a., Barak - L'altro Modo Restaurant, La Raibetta Restaurant, Tartaglia Fine Art. Exhibition organiser: Sandra Solimano Scientific committee: Francesco Conz, Verona; Gino Di Maggio, Mudima Foundation - Milan; Guido Giubbini, Director of the Villa Croce Museum of Contemporary Art; Caterina Gualco, Genoa; Henry Martin, Bolzano; Enrico Pedrini, Genoa; Sandro Ricaldone, Genoa; Sandra Solimano, deputy-director of the Villa Croce Museum of Contemporary Art. Committee co-ordinators: Sandra Solimano, Caterina Gualco Co-ordinator of performance activities: Caterina Gualco Catalogue (Neos Editions) edited by Sandra Solimano. Texts by Eric Andersen, Philip Corner, Gino Di Maggio, Hannah Higgins, Linda Kaiser, Henry Martin, Enrico Pedrini, Sandro Ricaldone, Sandra Solimano, Ben Vautier. The exhibition will occupy all of the museum spaces and comprise more than 100 works (mainly installations, video-installations, assemblages and objects) belonging to private Genoese collections and Italian collections, including the Francesco Conz Archive in Verona and the Gino Di Maggio Archive in Milan. It also involves the personal collaboration of certain artists who have made their personal collections available and others, like Ben Patterson and Ben Vautier, who have created new works for the occasion. The intention is to document Fluxus and its artists through original works from the 60s and 70s and through the more recent production of Fluxus artists. One section of the exhibition is dedicated to performances, which are an important part of Fluxus production. On 15 and 16 February (beginning at 5.30 p.m.) a programme of performances (organised by Caterina Gualco and the artist Eric Andersen) will be held at the Museum and will see the participation of Andersen himself, Giuseppe Chiari, Philip Corner, Geoffrey Hendricks, Alison Knowles, Larry Miller, Ben Patterson, Ben Vautier and Emmet Williams. In line with the spirit of Fluxus, the Fluxus Constellation exhibition will spread out of the museum and into the city through a series of events organised by the Museum and the Friends of Villa Croce Association in collaboration with certain Genoese galleries: 10 February 7.00 p.m. "Welcome Fluxus!" Fluxus in the Old Port. Fluxus artists welcomed by the President of the Old Port and the city authorities. Presentation of the exhibition and of the Flux-Tour. "Octet for wind" performance by George Brecht. 11-12 February "The Italian Tour". Fluxus visits its old friends in Northern Italy (project by Ben Patterson) 13 February 5.30 p.m. Inauguration of the "Multifluxus" exhibition - Il Vicolo 6.30 p.m. Inauguration of the "Photo reportage" exhibition - Ellequadro Documents. 7.30 p.m. Inauguration of the "Happy Birthday, Fluxus!" Exhibition - Joyce Co. h.21 Fluxus Dinner - Barak - L'Altro Modo Restaurant (by invitation) 15 February 9.00 p.m. Inauguration of the "Giuseppe Chiari" exhibition - Studio Leonardi V-Idea 16 February 9.00 p.m. Inauguration of the "Ben Vautier" exhibition - Caterina Gualco Archive Artists exhibited Eric Andersen (Denmark) Ay-0 (Japan) Joseph Beuys (Germany) George Brecht (Germany) Giuseppe Chiari (Italy) Philip Corner (USA) Jean Dupuy (France) Robert Filliou (France) Henry Flint (USA) Al Hansen (USA) Geoffrey Hendricks (USA) Dick Higgins (USA) Joe Jones (USA) Milan Knizac (Czech Republic) Alison Knowles (USA) George Maciunas (USA) Jackson Mac Low (USA) Larry Miller (USA) Charlotte Moorman (USA) Yoko Ono (Japan) Nam June Paik (Korea) Ben Patterson (USA) Takako Saito (Japan) Carolee Schneemann (USA) Daniel Spoerri (Romania) Serge III (France) Ben Vautier (France) Wolf Vostell (Germany) Bob Watts (USA) Emmett Williams (USA) La Monte Young (USA) "St.Auby Tamas" wrote: H, dear Eric, On Tue, 29 Jan 2002, Eric Andersen wrote: > I am sure you are being censored again. Do you want me to send your > mails to this Stupilist? > Thank you for your help
FLUXLIST: The Fluxus Constellation
THE FLUXUS CONSTELLATION Villa Croce Museum of Contemporary Art Via Jacopo Ruffini 3 -Genoa 15 February-13 June 2002 Opening hours: - Entrance fee: - Press conference: 14 February 11.30 a.m. Opening: 14 February 6.00 p.m. Press office: Simonetta Menini - Genoa City Council External Relations Office tel + 39 010 557111 e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cristina Pariset (office) - Milan tel + 39 02 4812584 e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] INFO: Villa Croce Museum of Contemporary Art - Via Jacopo Ruffini 3- 16128 Genova (Italy) Tel.+ 39-010 580069 - 010 585772 ; Fax +39-010 532482 E.mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sponsors: Alitalia, Friends of Villa Croce Association, Genoa Chamber of Commerce, Dati e Strategie S.R.L., ICAT Food, Porto Antico s.p.a., Barak - L'altro Modo Restaurant, La Raibetta Restaurant, Tartaglia Fine Art. Exhibition organiser: Sandra Solimano Scientific committee: Francesco Conz, Verona; Gino Di Maggio, Mudima Foundation - Milan; Guido Giubbini, Director of the Villa Croce Museum of Contemporary Art; Caterina Gualco, Genoa; Henry Martin, Bolzano; Enrico Pedrini, Genoa; Sandro Ricaldone, Genoa; Sandra Solimano, deputy-director of the Villa Croce Museum of Contemporary Art. Committee co-ordinators: Sandra Solimano, Caterina Gualco Co-ordinator of performance activities: Caterina Gualco Catalogue (Neos Editions) edited by Sandra Solimano. Texts by Eric Andersen, Philip Corner, Gino Di Maggio, Hannah Higgins, Linda Kaiser, Henry Martin, Enrico Pedrini, Sandro Ricaldone, Sandra Solimano, Ben Vautier. The exhibition will occupy all of the museum spaces and comprise more than 100 works (mainly installations, video-installations, assemblages and objects) belonging to private Genoese collections and Italian collections, including the Francesco Conz Archive in Verona and the Gino Di Maggio Archive in Milan. It also involves the personal collaboration of certain artists who have made their personal collections available and others, like Ben Patterson and Ben Vautier, who have created new works for the occasion. The intention is to document Fluxus and its artists through original works from the 60s and 70s and through the more recent production of Fluxus artists. One section of the exhibition is dedicated to performances, which are an important part of Fluxus production. On 15 and 16 February (beginning at 5.30 p.m.) a programme of performances (organised by Caterina Gualco and the artist Eric Andersen) will be held at the Museum and will see the participation of Andersen himself, Giuseppe Chiari, Philip Corner, Geoffrey Hendricks, Alison Knowles, Larry Miller, Ben Patterson, Ben Vautier and Emmet Williams. In line with the spirit of Fluxus, the Fluxus Constellation exhibition will spread out of the museum and into the city through a series of events organised by the Museum and the Friends of Villa Croce Association in collaboration with certain Genoese galleries: 10 February 7.00 p.m. "Welcome Fluxus!" Fluxus in the Old Port. Fluxus artists welcomed by the President of the Old Port and the city authorities. Presentation of the exhibition and of the Flux-Tour. "Octet for wind" performance by George Brecht. 11-12 February "The Italian Tour". Fluxus visits its old friends in Northern Italy (project by Ben Patterson) 13 February 5.30 p.m. Inauguration of the "Multifluxus" exhibition - Il Vicolo 6.30 p.m. Inauguration of the "Photo reportage" exhibition - Ellequadro Documents. 7.30 p.m. Inauguration of the "Happy Birthday, Fluxus!" Exhibition - Joyce Co. h.21 Fluxus Dinner - Barak - L'Altro Modo Restaurant (by invitation) 15 February 9.00 p.m. Inauguration of the "Giuseppe Chiari" exhibition - Studio Leonardi V-Idea 16 February 9.00 p.m. Inauguration of the "Ben Vautier" exhibition - Caterina Gualco Archive Artists exhibited Eric Andersen (Denmark) Ay-0 (Japan) Joseph Beuys (Germany) George Brecht (Germany) Giuseppe Chiari (Italy) Philip Corner (USA) Jean Dupuy (France) Robert Filliou (France) Henry Flint (USA) Al Hansen (USA) Geoffrey Hendricks (USA) Dick Higgins (USA) Joe Jones (USA) Milan Knizac (Czech Republic) Alison Knowles (USA) George Maciunas (USA) Jackson Mac Low (USA) Larry Miller (USA) Charlotte Moorman (USA) Yoko Ono (Japan) Nam June Paik (Korea) Ben Patterson (USA) Takako Saito (Japan) Carolee Schneemann (USA) Daniel Spoerri (Romania) Serge III (France) Ben Vautier (France) Wolf Vostell (Germany) Bob Watts (USA) Emmett Williams (USA) La Monte Young (USA)
FLUXLIST: REAL STUFF
Seven of the founders of Fluxus will perform at 3 evenings in Odense shortly. www.odense-performance-festival.dk.
Re: FLUXLIST: test x
this is rather to run away from it. "narvis ...pez" wrote: i wonder if this words can not be considered an intend of jump to the fire by ken friedman. > Call for papers FLUXUS was an international community of artists, architects, designers, and composers described as "the most radical and experimental art movement of the 1960s." As a laboratory of experimental art, Fluxus was the first locus of intermedia, concept art, events, and video, and a central influence on performance art, arte povera, and mail art. De: Eric Andersen [EMAIL PROTECTED]> Responder a: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fecha: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 00:25:44 +0200 Para: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Asunto: Re: FLUXLIST: test x Of course, nobody defined it. Why is that so strange? Reed Altemus wrote: Secondly, George Maciunas did certainly not define Fluxus. To which I would reply: neither did or do you, Mr. Anderson, sir. In certain areas he defined it well enough for me. RA Reed Altemus wrote: Hey Eric, members that none of the original artists from the Flux festivalsconsidered KenFriedman to be an artist. We all saw him as an agent and promoter. Andmost of Did it ever occur to you that some people on the list don't give a flying fuckwhat "the original artists from the Flux festivals" think? In addition, what the hell havethe original aritstsfrom the Flux festivals ever done for me (besides, in your case,parading a kind of juvenile popularity contest on this list which I find very amusingconsidering that it was Ken and Dick Higgins who, with others, started the list)So Ken Friedman is a sociologist and not an artist, what's the big deal? Since I've foundhis past activities under the Fluxus banner interesting, why should I feel a need foryour or anyone else's "Fluxus" seal of approval. Besides, Eric, it was Maciunas whosaid that t! ! he artist should eventually be replaced by the Fluxworker, someone who hasemployment in another field (like sociology or folklorism or whatever) but who does Fluxus asan avocation. Artists were to be retrained for socially constructive rather than parasitic work. RA --- Reed Altemus--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] EarthLink: It's your Internet.
Re: FLUXLIST: test x
Well, some people working within the network had some of these attitudes. Some not. None of them had all of them. Many people working outside the network had many of them. Some all. Reed Altemus wrote: Well, like the attitude that once you have an approach to a problem, you then thinkof something else, a different approach, an alternative, instead. To me that is a very Fluxusattitude. Or the attitude that every person has something to offer, everyone is an artist, ofnon-elitist art, to me that also is a very Fluxus attitude. Or the attitude that tedious or boringart is OK. That also is to me a Fluxus attitude. Or the attitude that art is experimental and all the resultsare interesting. A Fluxus attitude also. I'm not saying this has anything to do with me, per se,just that these are some things I've observed about Fluxus.RAWhat do you mean by attitude? Which attitude? Reed Altemus wrote: Hey, you're the one who brought up the "definition" problem, not me! Thought you weregonna slip that past me eh? No, of course no one defined Fluxus, from what I understandthe less defined it was the harder it was for anyone to coopt it- for me it remains an attitude,not an ism. I think George Brecht once said "Everybody has their own idea of what Fluxusis. That way it will take longer for them to bury us." So no, it is not so strange to me that thereis no definition of Fluxus. RA Of course, nobody defined it. Why is that so strange? Reed Altemus wrote: Secondly, George Maciunas did certainly not define Fluxus. To which I would reply: neither did or do you, Mr. Anderson, sir. In certain areas he defined it well enough for me. RA Reed Altemus wrote: Hey Eric, members that none of the original artists from the Flux festivalsconsidered KenFriedman to be an artist. We all saw him as an agent and promoter. Andmost of Did it ever occur to you that some people on the list don't give a flying fuckwhat "the original artists from the Flux festivals" think? In addition, what the hell havethe original aritstsfrom the Flux festivals ever done for me (besides, in your case,parading a kind of juvenile popularity contest on this list which I find very amusingconsidering that it was Ken and Dick Higgins who, with others, started the list)So Ken Friedman is a sociologist and not an artist, what's the big deal? Since I've foundhis past activities under the Fluxus banner interesting, why should I feel a need foryour or anyone else's "Fluxus" seal of approval. Besides, Eric, it was Maciunas whosaid that t! ! ! ! ! ! he artist should eventually be replaced by the Fluxworker, someone who hasemployment in another field (like sociology or folklorism or whatever) but who does Fluxus asan avocation. Artists were to be retrained for socially constructive rather than parasitic work. RA --- Reed Altemus--- [EMAIL PROTECTED]--- EarthLink: It's your Internet.
Re: FLUXLIST: test x
I don't care what you find interesting or not. I just explained a few things as a response to Sol's wish to ban 2 more persons from the list. Secondly, George Maciunas did certainly not define Fluxus. Eric Andersen Reed Altemus wrote: Hey Eric, members that none of the original artists from the Flux festivalsconsidered KenFriedman to be an artist. We all saw him as an agent and promoter. Andmost of Did it ever occur to you that some people on the list don't give a flying fuckwhat "the original artists from the Flux festivals" think? In addition, what the hell havethe original aritstsfrom the Flux festivals ever done for me (besides, in your case,parading a kind of juvenile popularity contest on this list which I find very amusingconsidering that it was Ken and Dick Higgins who, with others, started the list)So Ken Friedman is a sociologist and not an artist, what's the big deal? Since I've foundhis past activities under the Fluxus banner interesting, why should I feel a need foryour or anyone else's "Fluxus" seal of approval. Besides, Eric, it was Maciunas whosaid that the artist should eventually be replaced by the Fluxworker, someone who hasemployment in another field (like sociology or folklorism or whatever) but who does Fluxus asan avocation. Artists were to be retrained for socially constructive rather than parasitic work. RA --- Reed Altemus--- [EMAIL PROTECTED]--- EarthLink: It's your Internet.
Re: FLUXLIST: test x
Dear Heiko, Heiko Recktenwald wrote: what did you or do you think of Dick Higgins ? Dick was one of my best friends. A great artist and scholar. Al Hanson ? Was he an artist ? Which works would you say are art ? (I liked the early theoretical things on Happenings most. And his sentence: I dont like artists who make other artists bad.) Sure, I consider Al to be an artist and all his works to be art. Also I don't like artists who make other artists bad. To be an artist, thats mostly a personal view of others. I don't think so. There is generally quite a lot of respect among artists, - inspite of differences and disagreements. However, when people in desperate need for some kind of identity or feeling of belonging show up to adhere, - it seldomly works. Both praised Mr M very much. So do I. What do you think of Als pornographic stuff ? I think such stuff was once topic in fluxus politics. There we can see allready some peoples lameness... I also liked Als pornographic stuff. There is no such thing as a fluxus politic. All the bests Eric
[Fwd: FLUXLIST: test x]
This is plain silly. Of course I can unsubscribe. Of course I can start my own list. However, I can also express my opinion about this list. Listowners, who try to solve disputes by banning people should meet no respect. Listowners not respected should step down. Eric Andersen George Free wrote: At 01:01 AM 7/14/01 +0200, Eric Anderson wrote: I still think Bukoff and the rest of the old listowners should step down asap. And what purpose would be served by that? The term listowner is a technical term related to the software, kindly hosted by scribble.com, that operates the e-mail list. The role of the listowner is simply to manage the various technical tasks that are part of running an e-mail list. E.g., unsubscribing e-mail addresses that are dead and other details. The FLUXLIST listowner group is simply a collection of people who have agreed to carry out these mundane tasks. Sol and Allen have done the lion's share of this work and everyone should be grateful to them. The listowner group has also been called upon to make various policy and administrative decisions, including the banning of 1 person. Eric, and others: if you do not like how this e-mail list operates you are more than welcome to unsubscribe! You are also more than welcome to start your own e-mail list that you can operate as you see fit. George
Re: FLUXLIST: test x
What do you mean by attitude? Which attitude? Reed Altemus wrote: Hey, you're the one who brought up the "definition" problem, not me! Thought you weregonna slip that past me eh? No, of course no one defined Fluxus, from what I understandthe less defined it was the harder it was for anyone to coopt it- for me it remains an attitude,not an ism. I think George Brecht once said "Everybody has their own idea of what Fluxusis. That way it will take longer for them to bury us." So no, it is not so strange to me that thereis no definition of Fluxus.RAOf course, nobody defined it. Why is that so strange? Reed Altemus wrote: Secondly, George Maciunas did certainly not define Fluxus. To which I would reply: neither did or do you, Mr. Anderson, sir. In certain areas he defined it well enough for me. RA Reed Altemus wrote: Hey Eric, members that none of the original artists from the Flux festivalsconsidered KenFriedman to be an artist. We all saw him as an agent and promoter. Andmost of Did it ever occur to you that some people on the list don't give a flying fuckwhat "the original artists from the Flux festivals" think? In addition, what the hell havethe original aritstsfrom the Flux festivals ever done for me (besides, in your case,parading a kind of juvenile popularity contest on this list which I find very amusingconsidering that it was Ken and Dick Higgins who, with others, started the list)So Ken Friedman is a sociologist and not an artist, what's the big deal? Since I've foundhis past activities under the Fluxus banner interesting, why should I feel a need foryour or anyone else's "Fluxus" seal of approval. Besides, Eric, it was Maciunas whosaid that t! ! ! ! he artist should eventually be replaced by the Fluxworker, someone who hasemployment in another field (like sociology or folklorism or whatever) but who does Fluxus asan avocation. Artists were to be retrained for socially constructive rather than parasitic work. RA --- Reed Altemus--- [EMAIL PROTECTED]--- EarthLink: It's your Internet.
Re: FLUXLIST: test x
Sol brought Ken Friedman's name up. I didn't alan bowman wrote: why does eric constantly have to refer to ken friedman, why does he bring up ken's name? was ken involved in the G2000 thing, or tamas' tests? let's vote hands up who give a ahem!
Re: FLUXLIST: test x
As always, ex-listowner Sol doesn't get it. 1. Tamas is not my sidekick and I am not his sidekick. 2. More people are driven away from the list due to boredom than dispute. 3. I didn't kick Ken Friedman off the list. He left out of plain embarrassment after he realized that it was absolutely ridiculous of him to publish his private slandering letters on the list. 4. Most artists were expelled from and later included again by George Maciunas in this fantasy of a Fluxus Movement that in fact never existed. 5. The wonderful event Sol refers to on the Red Square in Moscow in 1964 (Mr. Fluxus by Emmett Williams) has become one of the most legendary tales in Fluxus. Not only highly appreciated by Emmett Williams, Arthur Koepcke, Tomas Schmit and myself but by most artists connected to the network and finally by George Maciunas with a delay of some 10 years. 6. I have never abused somebody. 7. As far as I remember, I have addressed myself to the list 3 times during the last 3 years. The first time was when I was kind enough to inform the list members that none of the original artists from the Flux festivals considered Ken Friedman to be an artist. We all saw him as an agent and promoter. And most of us would have preferred him to promote something else. The second time was when the same Ken Friedman without any provocation whatsoever started to publish his private slandering correspondence with Tamas and me. In this case I plainly responded to his absurd attacks. The third time was when Tamas informed me that his mails to the list were censored. The result so far has been that the silly ban on Genius 2000 has been lifted. He never did spam the list much more than many others, including Sol. It is interesting to observe that as soon this ban of one person is being lifted, it is proposed to ban 2 new persons. When these bans will be lifted I am sure 4 new person will be banned and so on. 8. Has anyone on the list ever wondered why absolutely none of the artist originally taken part in the Flux festivals ever mind the list? Could it be that the list has misunderstood itself? 9. Somebody on the list, I don't recall who, had the impression that I had decided to appoint somebody as listowner. Not true. I just proposed. I still think Bukoff and the rest of the old listowners should step down asap. Best wishes to all and especially to the ones who get it. Eric Andersen.
Re: FLUXLIST: test x
I entirely agree to it all / Eric
narvis ...pez wrote:
yeah!!
vote for g-2000!
he promised a fluxus-fluxlist-fluxsit-fluxist-flixits
god-good comeback
(without video copyrights)
...p
De: { brad brace } [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Responder a: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Fecha: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 15:48:06 -0700 (PDT)
Para: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Asunto: Re: FLUXLIST: test x
On Thu, 12 Jul 2001, narvis ...pez wrote:
maybe we have an other genius 2000
or similar god in campaing again?
Well, if this was a _real Fluxist fluxlist, the (apparently)
one person banned (G-2000), would be the logical choice as
new (sole) list-owner.
/:b
Re: FLUXLIST: test x
Probably not / Eric Deborah wrote: At 01:01 AM 7/14/01 +0200, you wrote: As always, ex-listowner Sol doesn't get it. 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. 8. 9. Best wishes to all and especially to the ones who get it. Eric Andersen. yawn Is this going to be over soon? Deborah
Re: FLUXLIST: The St. Auby Tamas' tests and proposal to which Eric Anderson referred?
It is really quite
simple. It is completely silly to block G e n i u s 2 0 0 0.
Lift the ban. This Genius didn't spam the list more than others. In the
future let the list members vote on any bans.
And rotate list owners.
For the next 6 months let's appoint brad brace. Bukoff and the rest to
step down.
Eric
{ brad brace } wrote:
Q: Why is this list censured?
A: (There are odious/dubious old-artworld careers at-stake.)
Why not have rotating "list-owners?" instead of
"absentee-listowners?" -- if any at-all?
Indeed.
Patterns that Mr Flux knew, rough blobby shapes of words,
part of the furniture of his mind.
/:b
Re: [Fwd: FLUXLIST: tests]
Doesn't seem to be possible. Have tried quite a number of times to re-post the original reference to the list. It seems to be censored and blocked by somebody. Don Boyd wrote: Eric and Tamas: Unfortunately I dfid not see your original message so was not able to fall silent. Could you re-post please? -Don Boyd _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
Re: [Fwd: FLUXLIST: tests]
Roger Stevens wrote: Was there ever such a referance? Yes.
Re: FLUXLIST: tests
Dear Owen, To answer your question I have tried quite a number of times to mail the original reference to the list. It seems to be censored and blocked by somebody. Bests Eric Owen Smith wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Dear Tamas, Great tests and proposal for maillist. Finally some spirit on the list. It is interesting to see how silent everybody becomes, when your voice is heard. You seem to scare the mice. All the bests, Eric Eric and/or Tamas - Somehow I seemed to have missed the original reference - what was the proposal?? Owen
[Fwd: FLUXLIST: tests]
Dear Heiko, I want lots of things but not anything in particular with regard to this matter. Just made the observation that whenever Tamas address himself to the list the number of messages immediately decreases drastically and nobody seems to be willing to respond. I find it interesting, because Tamas often raises interesting topics. Bests, Eric Heiko Recktenwald wrote: It is interesting to see how silent everybody becomes, when your voice is heard. Sounds like wishfull thinking. What do you want ? Lions ;-) H.
Re: FLUXLIST: tests
Dear Tamas, Great tests and proposal for maillist. Finally some spirit on the list. It is interesting to see how silent everybody becomes, when your voice is heard. You seem to scare the mice. All the bests, Eric
Re: FLUXLIST: To Name
The beauty of (art)history is that it is constantly being rewritten. If pez wants his own myths, it is OK with me. Why not? Eric narvis ...pez wrote: for instance, fluxus is alive with beuys myth included ok, why not ? pez
Re: FLUXLIST: To Name
No, it wasn't just the artmarket. In the 70's the perfect, political radical, correct cocktail consisted of wholoism, theosophy, ecology and a little touch of exotic mythology. To many people Joseph offered such a perfect cocktail. Also many of his students at that time became real disciples and went out in the world to preach. Eric Heiko Recktenwald wrote: A lot of people found joseph very, very correct in the 1970s Why ? Just the artmarket ? H.
Re: FLUXLIST: To Name
narvis ...pez wrote: what's supposed "new" for you today? Fluxus wasn't new in the first place. It was merely an accumulation of a lot of intermedial research that had been done in many places of the world for 4-6 years. Innovation in this InterMedia space has gone on ever since. However not much on this list. Here it seems that people much more are looking for a stereotyped legend. maybe beuys was the most radical or incorrect A lot of people found joseph very, very correct in the 1970s (if there was any) No, there wasn't. (dylan) I wonder if somebody thinks he was very good for Fluxus. Eric
Re: FLUXLIST: To Name
dear goddamnit you are serious about everything! quite true. but cab drivers did much better. www.ericandersen.com/ www.paperfolding.com meryl wrote: You know,I recently saw a photo of you, Eric, from the time period to which you often refer. Actually you were quite fetching. To those women in the street, I mean. Badger (goddamnit I'm serious about everything!) Girl -- From: Eric Andersen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: FLUXLIST: To Name Date: Sun, Dec 10, 2000, 5:08 PM In the '60s Fluxus was really hated by everybody. The art world, the music scene, the woman in the street, the cab driver. We were all considered lunatics. If you really wanted to complicate your cultural and otherwise political life, you just had to tell people that you were one of them who had performed in a Fluxus Festival. This continued up through the '70s where everything had to be very political in the classical sense. Fluxus was considered politically and socially irresponsible. Eric Heiko Recktenwald wrote: Fluxus was probably the most political incorrect you could be in the '60s. In which sense ? I remember seeing some John Lennon docu, well Yoko Ono etc, asking myself how such a stupid person could make such great music. Maybe the slogans would be differenmt today, hopefully. H.
Re: FLUXLIST: To Name
It is not so strange. Maciunas was a wonderful person and a very energetic organizer. In the early '60s he lived like a monk and his whole world was centered around festivals and publishing. The differences between us was very clear and nobody tried to hide them. Maciunas urged us to sign a manifest but none of us did. Later on he organized a protest again Karlheinz Stockhausen' Originale. Many of us performed in it and a few took part in both the protest and the perfromance. None of us have ever been very dogmatic. We loved our differences and still do. Eric Bertrand et Claudia CLAVEZ wrote: For Bertrand: Yes, Maciunas had many, many wonderful talents, but theory was certainly not one of them.Only Ben Vautier could find any interest in Maciunas texts. The rest of us just went along because we considered them completely unimportant. We had our own opinions which differed a lot between us. If Maciunas had so short views on avant garde and theory, why did so many artists joined him around the Fluxus Network? Were they cynical, e.g. using his ability to raise concerts and to organise things, without finding any credibility in his conceptions? Maybe Owen would help on this question. Bertrand
Re: FLUXLIST: To Name
narvis ...pez wrote: what about the recents fluxlist box, the fluxstamp project ( roger steven's cageanian poetrybook) these are not a "fluxumm aesthetic sharing" or do we don't move in an strategy to go on a new "flux the way" of process art? I don't know. I haven't seen any of them. However, none of what I have seen on the list seem to be new in any sense. i'm wonder if the the "beuysball" discussion is not related with "fluxaesthetic" problems from the mythical times to now? No, there was just very little contact. Probably for reasons of chemistry. If you compare Tomas Schmit with Wolf Vostell or Henry Flynt with Milan Knizak you find entirely different worlds. i'm not exactly a serious person. less, a serious researcher. I didn't blame you for not being serious. I blamed Heiner Stachelhaus for not doing serious research. why not see beuys under a fluxus group? Wishful thinking doesn't work well with historical facts. to be fluxtically pure? Fluxus was probably the most political incorrect you could be in the '60s. Eric
Re: FLUXLIST: To Name
In the '60s Fluxus was really hated by everybody. The art world, the music scene, the woman in the street, the cab driver. We were all considered lunatics. If you really wanted to complicate your cultural and otherwise political life, you just had to tell people that you were one of them who had performed in a Fluxus Festival. This continued up through the '70s where everything had to be very political in the classical sense. Fluxus was considered politically and socially irresponsible. Eric Heiko Recktenwald wrote: Fluxus was probably the most political incorrect you could be in the '60s. In which sense ? I remember seeing some John Lennon docu, well Yoko Ono etc, asking myself how such a stupid person could make such great music. Maybe the slogans would be differenmt today, hopefully. H.
Re: FLUXLIST: Re:Beuys in the Hood
Don, This is a misunderstanding. I have never said that I didn't approve of Beuys. And I would never say such a thing. What I did was to correct a number of Heiner Stachelhaus unbelievable mistakes. Eric Heiner Stachelhaus Don Boyd wrote: Thanks, Patricia and others for the information on Beuys. Eric may not approve of him. Other "Old timer" Fluxus artists may not approve of Beuys, but I like him. He quickly outgrew any "advantage" there might have been in "being Fluxus, " in my opinion. He actually helped Fluxus become more known, hence the continued association of Fluxus with his name and work and vice versa. I find the association mutually helpful and hope others do too.- Don
FLUXLIST: To Name
I don't think it can be discussed who is more or less Fluxus, since there were (are) no shared aesthetics or strategy among the part takers in the network. Consequently we never had such discussions among ourselves. What can be clarified however, is who was where when. There is much more mythology than facts floating around. Whether it is worthwhile to correct a few things or not depends on the fora. Right now I find it worthwhile to inform the Fluxlist that Fluxus didn't originate in New York and George Maciunas didn't bring it to Europe or elsewhere. narvis...pez refer to a book by Heiner Stachelhaus. It seems to be full of misinformation. E.g. a sentence such as ". Nam June Paik, one of the leaders of Fluxus movement" doesn't make sense. A person who had made serious research would never have uttered such nonsense. And Fluxus was certainly not a Neodadaist movement. Maciunas would have liked it to be in the '60s but only Ben Vautier could support him in that. There was no special relationship between Beuys and Maciunas as claimed by Tachelhaus. In fact Maciunas didn't like Beuys at all. It is correct that Beuys as professor of the Academy in Dusseldorf took part in the Fluxus festival there in 1963. Nobody remember in detail what he did. It was some kind of inverted, short Shamanistic ritual. Beuys didn't draw any attention before Aachen in 1964 when he made his acid / earth / crucifix piano and was punched in his nose. George Brecht, Al Hansen, La Monte Young and Bob Watts did not take part in the Festum Fluxorum in Dusseldorf, as claimed by Tachelhaus. It is pure nonsense to claim that he was left outside any Fluxus circle after the festival in Dusseldorf. E.g. he was invited to Aachen, 24 Stunden etc. Fluxus was a completely open platform in 1962-63. I guess more than a 200 people participated during these years, but not all of them became part of the international network. Nobody was excluded, - except in the Maciunas jokes. To Patricia: Ben loves to comment on Beuys and to call him a hypocrite. To attack persons with good names is an important part of Ben's Tour de Ego. Which we all love him for. Everybody can see for themselves on Ben's site. For Bertrand: Yes, Maciunas had many, many wonderful talents, but theory was certainly not one of them. You are right of course that he sometimes worked as a perfect catalyst. Since you have read the paper by Jackson Mac Low you know how little insight Maciunas had before he left New York. Only Ben Vautier could find any interest in Maciunas texts. The rest of us just went along because we considered them completely unimportant. We had our own opinions which differed a lot between us. I would like to refer you to the paper I gave at the Fluxus Seminar at Walker Art Center in Minneapolis early 1993. I'm sure they will send you a copy. It is interesting to notice that An Anthology (1961-63) edited by La Monte Young and Jackson Mac Low doesn't mention any Fluxus at all. Maciunas made the graphic design. See Fluxus Codex page 40. You mention the vernissage at Galerie Legitime in July 1962. This is exactly my point. Both Robert Filliou and Ben Patterson lived in Europe. I'll also suggest that you take contact with Ben Patterson in Wiesbaden to get a better impression of the early years. Eric Andersen
Re: FLUXLIST: To Name
Dear Heiko, Yes, it is my favorite Beuys piece. An exalted short circuit. Eric Heiko Recktenwald wrote: Think he did that himself with his stamp "Fluxus Zone West". Duesseldorf...life style.. H.
Re: FLUXLIST: To Name (Beuys and Fluxus)
It is my impression that a lot of people on the list consider him to be a key person in how they understand Fluxus to be. And the infamous traveling show "Fluxus in Germany" sponsored and organized by IFA in Stuttgart certainly states so. It is interesting that Beuys' pupil Henning Christiansen also in Germany is considered associated with the Flux network. He never was. Eric tartarugo wrote: Eric Andersen wrote: It is amazing how especially German art history has manipulated lots of people to believe that Joseph Beuys was a central figure in the Flux network. In fact, there was not much contact. And Beuys' Selbstdarstellung, Shamanism and metaphysics are really quite opposite worlds to intermedia. Eric Andersen I agree with Eric. But I wonder that anybody thinks that Beuys was a central figure in the Flux network. Well, I really don't know if that's the view from USA but I think that from here, in Europe, it's very clear that for Beuys "Fluxus" was only another tool he used to develop his own project, althought he and some other Fluxus artists met in some festivals. Some comments by Beuys himself: "...I link only externaly, for organization, but not conceptually, with the neodadaists, with the Fluxus people, who was working, most of them, in the field of Dadá, and at the same time, I developed my own concept of Fluxus, independently of dadaism and neodadaism..." It seems that the use of the word Fluxus allowed Beuys to extend his own ideas during a time, through some festivals in Germany (as in "Festum Fluxorum - Fluxus" in Dusseldorf). He use only as propaganda and within the context of his own ideas and conceptual background. After the mid sixties, references to Fluxus or Flux in the title of his works became rare. (In another hand, it's interesting to observe that after this period, when Beuys use the term Fluxus for a work, this work is linked with music or acoustic elements and most of the cases, with compositions by Henning Christiansen, as in MANRESA or in Eurasientab 82 min fluxorum organum).
Re: FLUXLIST: To Name
Thanks to zap for giving the information about Al Hansen. It was more or less the same stuff I had planned to pass on. I am sorry Bertrand, but to put it politely you are not fully informed about the matter. Compared to other places in the US, Europe and Japan George Maciunas did very little, which could be called next to Fluxus before he left New York. And the term Fluxus itself was planned as the title of a political magazine for immigrants from Lithuania. It was never realized. In 1960 and 1961 George had very little insight into the experimental art scene and intermedia anywhere. You should try to discuss the matter with La Monte Young and Jackson Mac Low. They did their best during these years to teach him. But really nothing seemed to work. George was a very, very innocent man when he arrived in Europe in 1962. His early writings in Europe on Neo-Dada show that very clearly. Not one of us could find such simplifications interesting. The Fluxus International Avant Garde Troops as George saw them (the rest of us disagreed entirely) certainly grew out of his head in Europe when he met everybody at the festivals. The statements you refer to in the Larry Miller interview are much more wishful thinking on George's part than based on facts. Yes, Heiko, some of the artists who later joined the Flux network took part in Cage classes. Al Hansen was one of them. It is my impression that the most important thing for Al was not the meeting with Cage, but the friendships that was build with Dick Higgins, George Brecht and others from the class. It is amazing how especially German art history has manipulated lots of people to believe that Joseph Beuys was a central figure in the Flux network. In fact, there was not much contact. And Beuys' Selbstdarstellung, Shamanism and metaphysics are really quite opposite worlds to intermedia. Eric Andersen
FLUXLIST: Re:
Dear Dave, Yes, festival Odense, Denmark, September, 10th until September, 14th 2001. Mieko Shiomi, Alison Knowles, Ben Patterson, Ben Vautier, Larry Miller, Philip Corner, Eric Andersen a.o. Eric ddyment wrote: hello, a friend is looking to get grant funding to attend conferences, symposia, etc. can you inform as to whether any fluxus events along these lines are scheduled for the forthcoming year? thanks kindly, dave
Re: FLUXLIST: Mechanics of Viri on MS
Heiko Recktenwald wrote: But I remember also well the reactions to this "real fluxus" "date raping" thing. Nobody except very naiv persons would have taken this serious. When fluxus began in the Cage class, they were some of the most avantgarde people of its time. Those who call themself "fluxus" today are not. Again and again misleading nonsense flourish on the list. The term Fluxus was used in connection with performance the first time in Europe in 1962 and the first Fluxus publication, The Roll, was printed in Wiesbaden in 1963. The platform was real open and nobody called themselves "real Fluxus". Co-founders of the network such as Emmett Williams, Robert Filliou, Tomas Schmit, Ben Patterson, Arthur Køpcke, Ben Vautier, Willem de Ridder, Wolf Vostell and I, - etc. never attended any Cage-classes. Eric Andersen.
FLUXLIST: To Name
Dear Heiko, I wasn't concerned about naming things. And didn't deal with what could be called Fluxus or not. I objected to your statement that Fluxus started in Cage classes. It certainly did not. And it certainly did not originate in New York. About Al. Millions of stories can be told. Anything specific you want to know? Eric
Re: FLUXLIST: Fluxlist, hmmmmmm.
It is amazing how Sol and others thought they could rely on and base a Fluxlist on Ken Friedman, who is considered to be a complete farce by most artists ever associated with Fluxus. As Ben Patterson often puts is: If Ken Friedman didn't exist we would have to invent him. My advice for the list in the future: Try to establish some kind of understanding of whether Fluxus is anything whatsoever or something specific or both. Ciao Eric
Re: FLUXLIST: Fluxlist, hmmmmmm.
I find very little quarrels on the list after Ken Friedman left. Howver, since it is called a Fluxlist, it should be important for the members to know how most Fluxus artists value Ken Friedman. Personally I have nothing against him. If Sol or others enjoy communicating with a dishonsest person, who constantly manipulates, it is certainly none of my business. For Caroll: I didn't put anything on the list. Just responded to Ken Friedman's outrageous mail. And my mood is indeed excellent. Ciao Eric
FLUXLIST: Boredom.
Can you explain this a little bit more, how did this topic came on, what was done, how did it go away ? H. For a start I can refer you to the book "foewombwhnw" by Dick Higgins. published by Something Else Press in 1969 - L.C. Catalog Card No.: 78-84054 - p. 95 - Boredom and Danger. Eric
Re: FLUXLIST: Da Capo
David Baptiste Chirot wrote: Eric: truly at times one hand does not know what the other is doing you are sending publicly a letter that purports to be private commenting on ken's doing the same i realize "all's fair in love (or hate) and war" but as the man said, "take it outside" --dbchirot Why do you think " Dear Marc, I agree entirely. I think Ken is wasting everybodies time and making a fool of himself by publishing his correspondance with IPUT and me on the list. It is pathetic. Ciao Eric "" was meant to be private???
FLUXLIST: wasting everybodies time
Dear Alan, Happy that you agree with me that Ken is wasting everybodies time. Making a fool of himself. I would cetainly never have published any correspondance with him. But I don't understand why you don't like me to answer mail addressed to me. I think it is pathetic. About boredom: It was indeed a very important topic for us during the Fluxus festivals in 62 and 63. Ciao Eric
FLUXLIST: FLUXUS GLADIATORS: Andersen vs. Friedman
Dear Marc, I agree entirely. I think Ken is wasting everybodies time and making a fool of himself by publishing his correspondance with IPUT and me on the list. It is pathetic. Ciao Eric
FLUXLIST: Response to Eric Andersen
Concerning Ken's short note of today. I wrote: "Some day the entire correspondance will end up on the Fluxlist." I was quite right. Concerning the other matters: Just ask people who was present, when and if you see them Finally for them who want to know: I'm not obsessed with Ken, only amused. Ciao Eric
RE: FLUXLIST: Response to Eric Andersen
Dear Tim, I predicted that the correspondance between Ken, IPUT and me would end up on the list, but I certainly didn't take any steps in that direction. Ciao Eric
