Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: Winds of Change
Social activists on list - take note. :) http://www.amazon.com/dp/1571746374/ref=pe_113430_22293040_pd_re_ dt_dt3 davew On Sat, Jan 7, 2012, at 08:42 PM, Nicholas Thompson wrote: Great Catch, Robert. I am afraid my finger was hovering over the send button. Gawd I have such naïve fingers. I did wonder, though, about the pension claim. And also, I am not so keen on term limits, unless lobbyists also have them. Nick From: friam-boun...@redfish.com [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Robert J. Cordingley Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2012 8:09 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: Winds of Change You might want to check this out first: [1]http://www.factcheck.org/2011/03/congressional-reform-act/ Robert C On 1/7/12 5:01 PM, Douglas Roberts wrote: I don't think I've ever done a chain letter before, but I thought this one was worth making an exception. On the other hand, I have so little respect for the voters of this country who allowed us to get into our current state. But still... Winds of Change Warren Buffet is asking each addressee to forward this email to a minimum of twenty people on their address list; in turn ask each of those to do likewise. snipped/ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org References 1. http://www.factcheck.org/2011/03/congressional-reform-act/ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: Winds of Change
Alas it would be unprofessional to elaborate. Sorry, Paul -Original Message- From: Gary Schiltz g...@naturesvisualarts.com To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group friam@redfish.com Sent: Sun, Jan 8, 2012 3:16 pm Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: Winds of Change Care to elaborate on 'we created small crises to create change.'? Don't remember where I saw it (bumper sticker, email...), but I'll consider thinking of a corporation as a person when Texas puts one to death. Gary On Jan 8, 2012, at 3:21 PM, Paul Paryski wrote: And as long as corporations are considered to be legal persons who can make unlimited political contributions and create super pacs, nothing will change. I believe that, unfortunately, real change will only come with tragic, painful crisis and perhaps collapse (ref. Jarred Diamond). This was one of the conclusions a number of us in the UN came to and we sometimes created small crises to create change. cheers on a snowy day, Paul FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: Winds of Change
Owen - While I'm on it: I feel disenfranchised this year because the Dems don't have a primary too. My parents used to (re)register every election for whatever party had the most interesting primaries. Then one day they woke up died-in-the-wool Republicans. The old saying goes if you are not liberal when you are young and conservative when you are old, there is something wrong. My variation is if you are not idealistic when you are young and pragmatic when you are old, there might be something a little awry. I was *much* more enamored of the conservative ideals when I was young (because I was growing up in a time when liberal ideals were in the water, as it were, and conservatives were busy trying to regain that ground... perhaps as they are again?). Pragmatism and worldly experience lead me to embrace liberal idealogy, or at least spirit much more as time went on. I want to live in a world of happiness and abundance, not fear and scarcity. Some might argue that I'm on the wrong side of the ticket for this, but the bottom line for me is seeking to frame the very real problems of the world in a way that allows them to be solved and not to require the domination of any group over any other (including the tyrannical majority of democracy over it's minorities). - Steve FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: Winds of Change
Well there you go then; that's the last time I let someone else to my Snopes checking for me. Besides, all the the recommendations listed are so intelligent, so rational, so right there is not a snowflakes chance in hell that they would ever be implemented. --Doug -- Doug Roberts drobe...@rti.org d...@parrot-farm.net http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins 505-455-7333 - Office 505-670-8195 - Cell On Sat, Jan 7, 2012 at 11:03 PM, joseph spinden j...@qri.us wrote: If you click on the snopes verification link in the original email from Doug, it is clear that Warren Buffet [sic] is NOT asking that the email be forwarded. In fact, he apparently has no connection to it at all beyond the fact that someone put his name on it. That said, it is not such a bad idea.. Joe Spinden On 1/7/12 5:01 PM, Douglas Roberts wrote: I don't think I've ever done a chain letter before, but I thought this one was worth making an exception. On the other hand, I have so little respect for the voters of this country who allowed us to get into our current state. But still... Winds of Change Warren Buffet is asking each addressee to forward this email to a minimum of twenty people on their address list; in turn ask each of those to do likewise. In three days, most people in The United States of America will have the message. This is one idea that really should be passed around. *Congressional Reform Act of 2011* 1. No Tenure / No Pension. A Congressman/woman collects a salary while in office and receives no pay when they're out of office. 2. Congress (past, present future) participates in Social Security. All funds in the Congressional retirement fund move to the Social Security system immediately. All future funds flow into the Social Security system, and Congress participates with the American people. It may not be used for any other purpose. 3. Congress can purchase their own retirement plan, just as all Americans do. 4. Congress will no longer vote themselves a pay raise.Congressional pay will rise by the lower of CPI or 3%. 5. Congress loses their current health care system and participates in the same health care system as the American people. 6. Congress must equally abide by all laws they impose on the American people. 7. All contracts with past and present Congressmen/women are void effective 1/1/12. The American people did not make this contract with Congressmen/women. Congressmen/women made all these contracts for themselves. Serving in Congress is an honor, not a career. The Founding Fathers envisioned citizen legislators, so ours should serve their term(s), then go home and back to work. If each person contacts a minimum of twenty people then it will only take three days for most people (in the U.S.) to receive the message.Don't you think it's time? THIS IS HOW YOU FIX CONGRESS! If you agree with the above, pass it on. Please keep it going. Thanks. *Snopes verification: http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/buffett.asp * -- Doug Roberts drobe...@rti.org d...@parrot-farm.net http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins 505-455-7333 - Office 505-670-8195 - Cell FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org -- Sunlight is the best disinfectant. -- Supreme Court Justice Louis D. Brandeis, 1913. FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: Winds of Change
But that's the point, Doug! Many of them have! Nick From: friam-boun...@redfish.com [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Douglas Roberts Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2012 11:23 AM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: Winds of Change Well there you go then; that's the last time I let someone else to my Snopes checking for me. Besides, all the the recommendations listed are so intelligent, so rational, so right there is not a snowflakes chance in hell that they would ever be implemented. --Doug -- Doug Roberts drobe...@rti.org d...@parrot-farm.net http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins 505-455-7333 - Office 505-670-8195 - Cell On Sat, Jan 7, 2012 at 11:03 PM, joseph spinden j...@qri.us wrote: If you click on the snopes verification link in the original email from Doug, it is clear that Warren Buffet [sic] is NOT asking that the email be forwarded. In fact, he apparently has no connection to it at all beyond the fact that someone put his name on it. That said, it is not such a bad idea.. Joe Spinden On 1/7/12 5:01 PM, Douglas Roberts wrote: I don't think I've ever done a chain letter before, but I thought this one was worth making an exception. On the other hand, I have so little respect for the voters of this country who allowed us to get into our current state. But still... Winds of Change Warren Buffet is asking each addressee to forward this email to a minimum of twenty people on their address list; in turn ask each of those to do likewise. In three days, most people in The United States of America will have the message. This is one idea that really should be passed around. *Congressional Reform Act of 2011* 1. No Tenure / No Pension. A Congressman/woman collects a salary while in office and receives no pay when they're out of office. 2. Congress (past, present future) participates in Social Security. All funds in the Congressional retirement fund move to the Social Security system immediately. All future funds flow into the Social Security system, and Congress participates with the American people. It may not be used for any other purpose. 3. Congress can purchase their own retirement plan, just as all Americans do. 4. Congress will no longer vote themselves a pay raise.Congressional pay will rise by the lower of CPI or 3%. 5. Congress loses their current health care system and participates in the same health care system as the American people. 6. Congress must equally abide by all laws they impose on the American people. 7. All contracts with past and present Congressmen/women are void effective 1/1/12. The American people did not make this contract with Congressmen/women. Congressmen/women made all these contracts for themselves. Serving in Congress is an honor, not a career. The Founding Fathers envisioned citizen legislators, so ours should serve their term(s), then go home and back to work. If each person contacts a minimum of twenty people then it will only take three days for most people (in the U.S.) to receive the message. Don't you think it's time? THIS IS HOW YOU FIX CONGRESS! If you agree with the above, pass it on. Please keep it going. Thanks. Snopes verification: http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/buffett.asp -- Doug Roberts drobe...@rti.org d...@parrot-farm.net http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins 505-455-7333 - Office 505-670-8195 - Cell FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org -- Sunlight is the best disinfectant. -- Supreme Court Justice Louis D. Brandeis, 1913. FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: Winds of Change
And don't think I'm not grateful, Nick. I owe each and every one of you surrogate Snopes-checkers a special favor. Or, of course, you could just bill me for your time. --Doug On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 12:02 PM, Nicholas Thompson nickthomp...@earthlink.net wrote: But that’s the point, Doug! Many of them have! ** ** Nick ** ** *From:* friam-boun...@redfish.com [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Douglas Roberts *Sent:* Sunday, January 08, 2012 11:23 AM *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: Winds of Change ** ** Well there you go then; that's the last time I let someone else to my Snopes checking for me. ** ** Besides, all the the recommendations listed are so intelligent, so rational, so right there is not a snowflakes chance in hell that they would ever be implemented. ** ** --Doug ** ** -- Doug Roberts drobe...@rti.org d...@parrot-farm.net http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins 505-455-7333 - Office 505-670-8195 - Cell ** ** ** ** On Sat, Jan 7, 2012 at 11:03 PM, joseph spinden j...@qri.us wrote: If you click on the snopes verification link in the original email from Doug, it is clear that Warren Buffet [sic] is NOT asking that the email be forwarded. In fact, he apparently has no connection to it at all beyond the fact that someone put his name on it. That said, it is not such a bad idea.. Joe Spinden On 1/7/12 5:01 PM, Douglas Roberts wrote: I don't think I've ever done a chain letter before, but I thought this one was worth making an exception. ** ** On the other hand, I have so little respect for the voters of this country who allowed us to get into our current state. ** ** But still... Winds of Change Warren Buffet is asking each addressee to forward this email to a minimum of twenty people on their address list; in turn ask each of those to do likewise. In three days, most people in The United States of America will have the message. This is one idea that really should be passed around. *Congressional Reform Act of 2011* 1. No Tenure / No Pension. A Congressman/woman collects a salary while in office and receives no pay when they're out of office. 2. Congress (past, present future) participates in Social Security. All funds in the Congressional retirement fund move to the Social Security system immediately. All future funds flow into the Social Security system, and Congress participates with the American people. It may not be used for any other purpose. 3. Congress can purchase their own retirement plan, just as all Americans do. 4. Congress will no longer vote themselves a pay raise.Congressional pay will rise by the lower of CPI or 3%. 5. Congress loses their current health care system and participates in the same health care system as the American people. 6. Congress must equally abide by all laws they impose on the American people. 7. All contracts with past and present Congressmen/women are void effective 1/1/12. The American people did not make this contract with Congressmen/women. Congressmen/women made all these contracts for themselves. Serving in Congress is an honor, not a career. The Founding Fathers envisioned citizen legislators, so ours should serve their term(s), then go home and back to work. ** ** If each person contacts a minimum of twenty people then it will only take three days for most people (in the U.S.) to receive the message. Don't you think it's time? THIS IS HOW YOU FIX CONGRESS! If you agree with the above, pass it on. Please keep it going. Thanks. *Snopes verification: http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/buffett.asp * ** ** -- Doug Roberts drobe...@rti.org d...@parrot-farm.net http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins 505-455-7333 - Office 505-670-8195 - Cell FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org -- ** ** Sunlight is the best disinfectant. ** ** -- Supreme Court Justice Louis D. Brandeis, 1913. FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org ** ** FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: Winds of Change
On 1/8/12 11:23 AM, Douglas Roberts wrote: The Founding Fathers envisioned citizen legislators, so ours should serve their term(s), then go home and back to work. I want professionals working on my behalf. I want skeptical decision makers that can engage lobbyists (small and large) and force them to provide public arguments for what it is they want. I want leaders to be comfortable publicly _laughing at_ lobbyist requests when those requests don't advance the greater good. So no, I don't want Congress on a still shorter leash. That's the problem in my opinion: Congress typically panders to the voting blocks that are easiest to manipulate, and otherwise is slave to individuals and groups with money. I don't see why short-term representation by distracted, overwhelmed, and inexperienced people will be any better. Marcus FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: Winds of Change
And how, in country where 47% of the population liked Sarah Palin for president do you envision this version of Utopia evolving, Marcus? Sent from my Kindle Fire _ From: Marcus G. Daniels mar...@snoutfarm.com Sent: Sun Jan 08 13:00:52 MST 2012 To: friam@redfish.com Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: Winds of Change On 1/8/12 11:23 AM, Douglas Roberts wrote: The Founding Fathers envisioned citizen legislators, so ours should serve their term(s), then go home and back to work. I want professionals working on my behalf. I want skeptical decision makers that can engage lobbyists (small and large) and force them to provide public arguments for what it is they want. I want leaders to be comfortable publicly _laughing at_ lobbyist requests when those requests don't advance the greater good. So no, I don't want Congress on a still shorter leash. That's the problem in my opinion: Congress typically panders to the voting blocks that are easiest to manipulate, and otherwise is slave to individuals and groups with money. I don't see why short-term representation by distracted, overwhelmed, and inexperienced people will be any better. Marcus FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: Winds of Change
Doug, et al- Despite my participation in debunking the specifics of the chain-mail attributed to Warren Buffet, I am sympathetic with some if not most of it's tone and message. I believe that our political strata, both at state and federal levels are generally corrupt, sold out, or at least out of touch with what we the people want, and the perqs of the office only serve to make them more apart.On the other hand, I have a nose for conspiracy theories that take any good issue and blow it out of proportion and inject their own brand of craziness. The Founding Fathers *may have* envisioned citizen legislators, but we should also remember that at the time, *citizens* were defined by property ownership, gender and race. So, the Citizen Legislators they envisioned were landed (white) gentlemen who were both educated and who had significant vested interests in the economy... The rest (of us?) *were* the ignorant unwashed masses to them, as I fear we continue to be to them. I love the phrasing you use here Doug, I'm suspecting you were quite deliberate in the allusion implied with 47% of the population *liked* Sara Palin for president.It may not be long before most of the population believes that they can (and should be able to) elect a president over Facebook! I'd like to believe that 50% of that 47% were really liking Tina Fey or Lisa Ann without realizing that either of these *actresses* were not Sara herself anyway... I've always been offended by how much our election process looks like a popularity contest. Which reminds me... is anyone following Americans Elect still? I'm still getting their mailings... - Steve And how, in country where 47% of the population liked Sarah Palin for president do you envision this version of Utopia evolving, Marcus? Sent from my Kindle Fire *From:* Marcus G. Daniels mar...@snoutfarm.com *Sent:* Sun Jan 08 13:00:52 MST 2012 *To:* friam@redfish.com *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: Winds of Change On 1/8/12 11:23 AM, Douglas Roberts wrote: The Founding Fathers envisioned citizen legislators, so ours should serve their term(s), then go home and back to work. I want professionals working on my behalf. I want skeptical decision makers that can engage lobbyists (small and large) and force them to provide public arguments for what it is they want. I want leaders to be comfortable publicly _laughing at_ lobbyist requests when those requests don't advance the greater good. So no, I don't want Congress on a still shorter leash. That's the problem in my opinion: Congress typically panders to the voting blocks that are easiest to manipulate, and otherwise is slave to individuals and groups with money. I don't see why short-term representation by distracted, overwhelmed, and inexperienced people will be any better. Marcus FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: Winds of Change
Steve, Joel Grey and Liza Minille said it all: Money money money makes the world go 'round. As long as our laws allow elected Congressmen to accept corporate lobbyist special interest bribes, nothing will change. Sent from my Kindle Fire _ From: Steve Smith sasm...@swcp.com Sent: Sun Jan 08 14:11:26 MST 2012 To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group friam@redfish.com Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: Winds of Change Doug, et al- Despite my participation in debunking the specifics of the chain-mail attributed to Warren Buffet, I am sympathetic with some if not most of it's tone and message. I believe that our political strata, both at state and federal levels are generally corrupt, sold out, or at least out of touch with what we the people want, and the perqs of the office only serve to make them more apart.On the other hand, I have a nose for conspiracy theories that take any good issue and blow it out of proportion and inject their own brand of craziness. The Founding Fathers *may have* envisioned citizen legislators, but we should also remember that at the time, *citizens* were defined by property ownership, gender and race. So, the Citizen Legislators they envisioned were landed (white) gentlemen who were both educated and who had significant vested interests in the economy... The rest (of us?) *were* the ignorant unwashed masses to them, as I fear we continue to be to them. I love the phrasing you use here Doug, I'm suspecting you were quite deliberate in the allusion implied with 47% of the population *liked* Sara Palin for president.It may not be long before most of the population believes that they can (and should be able to) elect a president over Facebook! I'd like to believe that 50% of that 47% were really liking Tina Fey or Lisa Ann without realizing that either of these *actresses* were not Sara herself anyway... I've always been offended by how much our election process looks like a popularity contest. Which reminds me... is anyone following Americans Elect still? I'm still getting their mailings... - Steve And how, in country where 47% of the population liked Sarah Palin for president do you envision this version of Utopia evolving, Marcus? Sent from my Kindle Fire _ From: Marcus G. Daniels mar...@snoutfarm.com Sent: Sun Jan 08 13:00:52 MST 2012 To: friam@redfish.com Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: Winds of Change On 1/8/12 11:23 AM, Douglas Roberts wrote: The Founding Fathers envisioned citizen legislators, so ours should serve their term(s), then go home and back to work. I want professionals working on my behalf. I want skeptical decision makers that can engage lobbyists (small and large) and force them to provide public arguments for what it is they want. I want leaders to be comfortable publicly _laughing at_ lobbyist requests when those requests don't advance the greater good. So no, I don't want Congress on a still shorter leash. That's the problem in my opinion: Congress typically panders to the voting blocks that are easiest to manipulate, and otherwise is slave to individuals and groups with money. I don't see why short-term representation by distracted, overwhelmed, and inexperienced people will be any better. Marcus FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: Winds of Change
And as long as corporations are considered to be legal persons who can make unlimited political contributions and create super pacs, nothing will change. I believe that, unfortunately, real change will only come with tragic, painful crisis and perhaps collapse (ref. Jarred Diamond). This was one of the conclusions a number of us in the UN came to and we sometimes created small crises to create change. cheers on a snowy day, Paul -Original Message- From: Doug Roberts d...@parrot-farm.net To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group friam@redfish.com Sent: Sun, Jan 8, 2012 9:29 am Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: Winds of Change Steve, Joel Grey and Liza Minille said it all: Money money money makes the world go 'round. As long as our laws allow elected Congressmen to accept corporate lobbyist special interest bribes, nothing will change. Sent from my Kindle Fire From: Steve Smith sasm...@swcp.com Sent: Sun Jan 08 14:11:26 MST 2012 To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group friam@redfish.com Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: Winds of Change Doug, et al- Despite my participation in debunking the specifics of thechain-mail attributed to Warren Buffet, I am sympathetic with someif not most of it's tone and message. I believe that our politicalstrata, both at state and federal levels are generally corrupt, soldout, or at least out of touch with what we the people want, andthe perqs of the office only serve to make them more apart.Onthe other hand, I have a nose for conspiracy theories that take anygood issue and blow it out of proportion and inject their own brandof craziness. The Founding Fathers *may have* envisioned citizen legislators, butwe should also remember that at the time, *citizens* were defined byproperty ownership, gender and race. So, the Citizen Legislatorsthey envisioned were landed (white) gentlemen who were botheducated and who had significant vested interests in the economy... The rest (of us?) *were* the ignorant unwashed masses to them, as Ifear we continue to be to them. I love the phrasing you use here Doug, I'm suspecting you were quite deliberate in the allusion implied with 47% of the population*liked* Sara Palin for president.It may not be long before mostof the population believes that they can (and should be able to)elect a president over Facebook! I'd like to believe that 50% ofthat 47% were really liking Tina Fey or Lisa Ann without realizingthat either of these *actresses* were not Sara herself anyway... I've always been offended by how much our election process lookslike a popularity contest. Which reminds me... is anyone followingAmericans Elect still? I'm still getting their mailings... - Steve And how, in country where 47% of the population liked SarahPalin for president do you envision this version of Utopiaevolving, Marcus? Sent from my Kindle Fire From: Marcus G. Daniels mar...@snoutfarm.com Sent: Sun Jan 08 13:00:52 MST 2012 To: friam@redfish.com Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: Winds of Change On 1/8/12 11:23 AM, Douglas Roberts wrote: The Founding Fathers envisioned citizen legislators, so ours should serve their term(s), then go home and back to work. I want professionals working on my behalf. I want skeptical decision makers that can engage lobbyists (small and large) and force them to provide public arguments for what it is they want.I want leaders to be comfortable publicly _laughing at_ lobbyist requests when those requests don't advance the greater good. So no, I don't want Congress on a still shorter leash. That's the problem in my opinion: Congress typically panders to the voting blocks that are easiest to manipulate, and otherwise is slave to individuals and groups with money. I don't see why short-term representation by distracted, overwhelmed, and inexperienced people will be any better. Marcus FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: Winds of Change
And as long as corporations are considered to be legal persons who can make unlimited political contributions and create super pacs, nothing will change. I believe that, unfortunately, real change will only come with tragic, painful crisis and perhaps collapse (ref. Jarred Diamond). This was one of the conclusions a number of us in the UN came to and we sometimes created small crises to create change. cheers on a snowy day, Paul -Original Message- From: Doug Roberts d...@parrot-farm.net To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group friam@redfish.com Sent: Sun, Jan 8, 2012 9:29 am Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: Winds of Change Steve, Joel Grey and Liza Minille said it all: Money money money makes the world go 'round. As long as our laws allow elected Congressmen to accept corporate lobbyist special interest bribes, nothing will change. Sent from my Kindle Fire From: Steve Smith sasm...@swcp.com Sent: Sun Jan 08 14:11:26 MST 2012 To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group friam@redfish.com Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: Winds of Change Doug, et al- Despite my participation in debunking the specifics of thechain-mail attributed to Warren Buffet, I am sympathetic with someif not most of it's tone and message. I believe that our politicalstrata, both at state and federal levels are generally corrupt, soldout, or at least out of touch with what we the people want, andthe perqs of the office only serve to make them more apart.Onthe other hand, I have a nose for conspiracy theories that take anygood issue and blow it out of proportion and inject their own brandof craziness. The Founding Fathers *may have* envisioned citizen legislators, butwe should also remember that at the time, *citizens* were defined byproperty ownership, gender and race. So, the Citizen Legislatorsthey envisioned were landed (white) gentlemen who were botheducated and who had significant vested interests in the economy... The rest (of us?) *were* the ignorant unwashed masses to them, as Ifear we continue to be to them. I love the phrasing you use here Doug, I'm suspecting you were quite deliberate in the allusion implied with 47% of the population*liked* Sara Palin for president.It may not be long before mostof the population believes that they can (and should be able to)elect a president over Facebook! I'd like to believe that 50% ofthat 47% were really liking Tina Fey or Lisa Ann without realizingthat either of these *actresses* were not Sara herself anyway... I've always been offended by how much our election process lookslike a popularity contest. Which reminds me... is anyone followingAmericans Elect still? I'm still getting their mailings... - Steve And how, in country where 47% of the population liked SarahPalin for president do you envision this version of Utopiaevolving, Marcus? Sent from my Kindle Fire From: Marcus G. Daniels mar...@snoutfarm.com Sent: Sun Jan 08 13:00:52 MST 2012 To: friam@redfish.com Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: Winds of Change On 1/8/12 11:23 AM, Douglas Roberts wrote: The Founding Fathers envisioned citizen legislators, so ours should serve their term(s), then go home and back to work. I want professionals working on my behalf. I want skeptical decision makers that can engage lobbyists (small and large) and force them to provide public arguments for what it is they want.I want leaders to be comfortable publicly _laughing at_ lobbyist requests when those requests don't advance the greater good. So no, I don't want Congress on a still shorter leash. That's the problem in my opinion: Congress typically panders to the voting blocks that are easiest to manipulate, and otherwise is slave to individuals and groups with money. I don't see why short-term representation by distracted, overwhelmed, and inexperienced people will be any better. Marcus FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: Winds of Change
I simply like the initial email for its really sound ideas. Now what percentage of them are being followed according to FactCheck? While I'm on it: I feel disenfranchised this year because the Dems don't have a primary too. Why not, for heven's sake? Shouldn't we presume that a better Dem might emerge over the last few years? Is it a law that the current party cannot have a primary? I don't know if its too late for me to register Republican .. or if NM has an Independent registration that can vote in both primaries. But I can't help liking the guy wanting to stop having wars. -- Owen FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: Winds of Change
Care to elaborate on 'we created small crises to create change.'? Don't remember where I saw it (bumper sticker, email...), but I'll consider thinking of a corporation as a person when Texas puts one to death. Gary On Jan 8, 2012, at 3:21 PM, Paul Paryski wrote: And as long as corporations are considered to be legal persons who can make unlimited political contributions and create super pacs, nothing will change. I believe that, unfortunately, real change will only come with tragic, painful crisis and perhaps collapse (ref. Jarred Diamond). This was one of the conclusions a number of us in the UN came to and we sometimes created small crises to create change. cheers on a snowy day, Paul FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: Winds of Change
According to thishttp://www.factcheck.org/2011/03/congressional-reform-act/most of the problems in the chain letter aren't true and don't need fixing. *-- Russ * On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 7:15 PM, Gary Schiltz g...@naturesvisualarts.comwrote: Care to elaborate on 'we created small crises to create change.'? Don't remember where I saw it (bumper sticker, email...), but I'll consider thinking of a corporation as a person when Texas puts one to death. Gary On Jan 8, 2012, at 3:21 PM, Paul Paryski wrote: And as long as corporations are considered to be legal persons who can make unlimited political contributions and create super pacs, nothing will change. I believe that, unfortunately, real change will only come with tragic, painful crisis and perhaps collapse (ref. Jarred Diamond). This was one of the conclusions a number of us in the UN came to and we sometimes created small crises to create change. cheers on a snowy day, Paul FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: Winds of Change
Owen, Whom the gods would drive mad.. Etc. Nick From: friam-boun...@redfish.com [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Owen Densmore Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2012 7:22 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: Winds of Change I simply like the initial email for its really sound ideas. Now what percentage of them are being followed according to FactCheck? While I'm on it: I feel disenfranchised this year because the Dems don't have a primary too. Why not, for heven's sake? Shouldn't we presume that a better Dem might emerge over the last few years? Is it a law that the current party cannot have a primary? I don't know if its too late for me to register Republican .. or if NM has an Independent registration that can vote in both primaries. But I can't help liking the guy wanting to stop having wars. -- Owen FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: Winds of Change
There's little enough to worry about, Owen, The bluntly specific, common-sense nature of the suggestions outlined in the letter will, by their very nature, ensure that they will not be acted upon. --Doug On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 7:21 PM, Owen Densmore o...@backspaces.net wrote: I simply like the initial email for its really sound ideas. Now what percentage of them are being followed according to FactCheck? While I'm on it: I feel disenfranchised this year because the Dems don't have a primary too. Why not, for heven's sake? Shouldn't we presume that a better Dem might emerge over the last few years? Is it a law that the current party cannot have a primary? I don't know if its too late for me to register Republican .. or if NM has an Independent registration that can vote in both primaries. But I can't help liking the guy wanting to stop having wars. -- Owen FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org -- Doug Roberts drobe...@rti.org d...@parrot-farm.net http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins 505-455-7333 - Office 505-670-8195 - Cell FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: Winds of Change
You might want to check this out first: http://www.factcheck.org/2011/03/congressional-reform-act/ Robert C On 1/7/12 5:01 PM, Douglas Roberts wrote: I don't think I've ever done a chain letter before, but I thought this one was worth making an exception. On the other hand, I have so little respect for the voters of this country who allowed us to get into our current state. But still... Winds of Change Warren Buffet is asking each addressee to forward this email to a minimum of twenty people on their address list; in turn ask each of those to do likewise. snipped/ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: Winds of Change
Great Catch, Robert. I am afraid my finger was hovering over the send button. Gawd I have such naïve fingers. I did wonder, though, about the pension claim. And also, I am not so keen on term limits, unless lobbyists also have them. Nick From: friam-boun...@redfish.com [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Robert J. Cordingley Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2012 8:09 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: Winds of Change You might want to check this out first: http://www.factcheck.org/2011/03/congressional-reform-act/ Robert C On 1/7/12 5:01 PM, Douglas Roberts wrote: I don't think I've ever done a chain letter before, but I thought this one was worth making an exception. On the other hand, I have so little respect for the voters of this country who allowed us to get into our current state. But still... Winds of Change Warren Buffet is asking each addressee to forward this email to a minimum of twenty people on their address list; in turn ask each of those to do likewise. snipped/ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: Winds of Change
If you click on the snopes verification link in the original email from Doug, it is clear that Warren Buffet [sic] is NOT asking that the email be forwarded. In fact, he apparently has no connection to it at all beyond the fact that someone put his name on it. That said, it is not such a bad idea.. Joe Spinden On 1/7/12 5:01 PM, Douglas Roberts wrote: I don't think I've ever done a chain letter before, but I thought this one was worth making an exception. On the other hand, I have so little respect for the voters of this country who allowed us to get into our current state. But still... Winds of Change Warren Buffet is asking each addressee to forward this email to a minimum of twenty people on their address list; in turn ask each of those to do likewise. In three days, most people in The United States of America will have the message. This is one idea that really should be passed around. *Congressional Reform Act of 2011* 1. No Tenure / No Pension. A Congressman/woman collects a salary while in office and receives no pay when they're out of office. 2. Congress (past, present future) participates in Social Security. All funds in the Congressional retirement fund move to the Social Security system immediately. All future funds flow into the Social Security system, and Congress participates with the American people. It may not be used for any other purpose. 3. Congress can purchase their own retirement plan, just as all Americans do. 4. Congress will no longer vote themselves a pay raise.Congressional pay will rise by the lower of CPI or 3%. 5. Congress loses their current health care system and participates in the same health care system as the American people. 6. Congress must equally abide by all laws they impose on the American people. 7. All contracts with past and present Congressmen/women are void effective 1/1/12. The American people did not make this contract with Congressmen/women. Congressmen/women made all these contracts for themselves. Serving in Congress is an honor, not a career. The Founding Fathers envisioned citizen legislators, so ours should serve their term(s), then go home and back to work. If each person contacts a minimum of twenty people then it will only take three days for most people (in the U.S.) to receive the message. Don't you think it's time? THIS IS HOW YOU FIX CONGRESS! If you agree with the above, pass it on. Please keep it going. Thanks.*Snopes verification: http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/buffett.asp * -- Doug Roberts drobe...@rti.org mailto:drobe...@rti.org d...@parrot-farm.net mailto:d...@parrot-farm.net http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins 505-455-7333 - Office 505-670-8195 - Cell FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org -- Sunlight is the best disinfectant. -- Supreme Court Justice Louis D. Brandeis, 1913. FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
