Re: linux/windows security
On Tue, Feb 12, 2002 at 02:27:59AM -0500, Ray Bowles wrote: *** On Mon, 11 Feb 2002 at 1:24pm Derek D. Martin shared this with the class:: Ray, I really hate when people do this. The numbers presented are very deceptive, because for Microsoft products, the numbers include ONLY the core OS. Linux distributions come with a multitude of I completely understand, but I was refering more to the relation of problems in RedHat's CRAP distro rather than the Microsoft numbers. Everybody knows how the results are computed. So regardless of what numbers M$ is showing RH is still following in there footsteps of putting out software before it is ready (or secure) and creating fodder for the Windows world to throw at Linux systems. Personally (and I'm not looking to start a distro war) I like Debian and OpenBSD and I like how they faired against the other offerings. I'm glad to see their hard work and adherence to strick standards are paying off! Ray, I was going to let this go and not participate in this thread, but this set me off. Later in the above paragraph you state that you are not trying to start a distro war, but just a few lines previous you call Red Hat's distro a CRAP distro. I suggest taking a look at this blatant discrepency. I'ld also like to suggest that you take a look at Linux Weekly News' (http://lwn.net) [of February 7, 2002] take on this whole security numbers thing and then go do the extensive research that they suggest is required to get an accurate picture of the security of an OS. Until someone does that, the raw numbers mean CRAP to the discerning eye. I tolerate some jabs that Red Hat takes on this list and other Linux lists, because I know most of it is with the usual wink (;-)) and acknowledgement of at least two facts by the jab'er: 1) that software development is tough and we all make mistakes -- 2) Red Hat is the best know name in Linux (at least in this country) and as a result is under the brightest spotlight and therefore the highest scrutiny. Most who take jabs at Red Hat, though they might not say it, seem to be willing to acknowledge that the distro is not CRAP, but might not be to their liking. That's fine -- to each his own. But I don't think I've ever seen anyone accuse the company of following in Microsoft's footsteps, except maybe some slashkiddies. Given, in particular, some recent news events about Microsoft's view on security (its view on the 'begin' bug, its fight against security info being published, etc.), I see that as a clear attack on the company. For now, I'm not going to debate why I am a Red Hat user and fan of their distribution, but just say that I find your accusations of their distribution being CRAP, groundless. I'm not asking you explain yourself (I suspect that you might do that of your own accord), because your above comments seem to indicate that you wish to incite a riot and I'm not going to egg you on. Everything isn't about bashing linux so stop looking for a fight. There will always be poorly run companies and unfortunately for their users I see RH being one of those companies. I know it's hard for you to be open minded when it comes to Windows (and probably with good reason) but give it a try when comparing Linux to it's relatives. Again, baseless accusations. So Red Hat is a poorly run company, but yet they are one of the few almost pure play Open Source company left that has figured out to make money in the Free Software world without sacrificing the principles of freedom in software (embodied primarily in the GPL). And they have been approaching profitability (no, I don't think they are there yet due to the absurd 'pro forma' numbers) a lot faster in their life as a public company than the Amazon's of the world. I know people personally who work at Red Hat and I'm sure they would have a lot to say about being told that they work for a 'poorly run company'. So I've got insiders' views, partner views (that I won't discuss publicly), an investor's view, and a user's view (my own and a few companies). All positive. Not perfect, but clearly positive. Try adding up the vulnerabilities for NT/2000, Microsoft office, Microsoft Outlook, Internet Explorer, IIS, Exchange, and FrontPage. Compare THAT number to Red Hat's, and now you've got something. What else does Microsoft sell that we can include in that figure, anyone? Now compare RH's numbers to BSD or Debian. See above about raw numbers being meaningless. I will remind people again that bashing Linux distros, especially in comparison to Microsoft products, is not a very good thing to do on a LINUX MAILING LIST. Some might call it flamebait... Others might call it trolling. I would call it being honest and critical about an OS I like quite a bit and there is no better way to keep it prgressing the why it has been in the last few years than to do just that. I would never give up my Linux server because it the the
Re: linux/windows security
On Tue, 12 Feb 2002, Ray Bowles wrote: *** On Mon, 11 Feb 2002 at 1:24pm Derek D. Martin shared this with the class:: I completely understand, but I was refering more to the relation of problems in RedHat's CRAP distro rather than the Microsoft numbers. Everybody knows how the results are computed. So regardless of what numbers M$ is showing RH is still following in there footsteps of putting out software before it is ready (or secure) and creating fodder for the Windows world to throw at Linux systems. Personally (and I'm not looking to start a distro war) I like Debian and OpenBSD and I like how they faired against the other offerings. I'm glad to see their hard work and adherence to strick standards are paying off! OK, you say you're not looking to start a distro war then procveed to spend the remainder of you message trashing RedHat and praising Debian. But you don't want to start a distro war? I could go on, (and I started to, but deleted it,) but I'm really not going to get into a distro war. -- Thomas M. Albright (Linux user number 234357) Amendment IV The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: linux/windows security
On Tue, 12 Feb 2002, Ray Bowles wrote: Now compare RH's numbers to BSD or Debian. Well, since both Red Hat and Debian package the same software, one can only conclude that Red Hat is more vigilant about finding and fixing problems than Debian is. -- Ben Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] | The opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not | | necessarily represent the views or policy of any other person, entity or | | organization. All information is provided without warranty of any kind. | * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
GNHLUG Tee Shirt spotted in the Carribean
At http://news.gnhlug.org/article.php?sid=374 is: Can anyone identify who is wearing that GNHLUG tee-shirt? The photo is in the GNHLUG photo gallery at: http://news.gnhlug.org/ modules.php?op=modloadname=galleryfile=index By the way - feel free to add photos to that album whenever you spot someone outside of New Hampshire doing something very GNHLUG-ish! * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: GNHLUG Tee Shirt spotted in the Carribean
jbd wrote: At http://news.gnhlug.org/article.php?sid=374 is: Can anyone identify who is wearing that GNHLUG tee-shirt? Hmmm. Initials BS? /BS -- We have to make a management decision Jerry Mason, Morton Thiokol, Inc. 27 January 1986 * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: GNHLUG Tee Shirt spotted in the Carribean
At 10:52 AM -0500 2/12/02, jbd wrote: At http://news.gnhlug.org/article.php?sid=374 is: Can anyone identify who is wearing that GNHLUG tee-shirt? The photo is in the GNHLUG photo gallery at: http://news.gnhlug.org/ modules.php?op=modloadname=galleryfile=index Looks suspiciously like Ben Smith, captain of the Mother of Perl and founder of MonadLug. Ray -- - Raymond Cote, President Appropriate Solutions, Inc. www.AppropriateSolutions.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] 603.924.6079(v) POB 458, Peterborough, NH 03458603.924.8668(f) * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: GNHLUG Tee Shirt spotted in the Carribean
Can anyone identify who is wearing that GNHLUG tee-shirt? Looks suspiciously like Ben Smith, captain of the Mother of Perl and founder of MonadLug. The real question is: Does the boat have good internet connectivity? -- Jack Hodgson [EMAIL PROTECTED] 603-433-7161 www.jackhodgson.com * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: linux/windows security
Ray Bowles said: *** On Mon, 11 Feb 2002 at 1:24pm Derek D. Martin shared this with the class:: Interesting attribution... ;-) Ray, I really hate when people do this. The numbers presented are very deceptive, because for Microsoft products, the numbers include ONLY the core OS. Linux distributions come with a multitude of I completely understand I don't think you do. If you did, you wouldn't have posted your original, inflamatory message. Red Hat isn't perfect, but they're WAY better than Microsoft; both in terms of releasing buggy code, and more importantly in how they handle the situation. Unlike Microsoft, they don't try to denounce bug reports, they just fix them. Microsoft has a history of saying oh, that's not really a bug, or, but that's only a theoretical vulnerability. The guys at L0pht et. al. have had numerous feild days over such comments from them. Bugtraq archives are littered with messages from Microsoft's Scott Culp, et. al., saying many such things, which only serves to prove that Microsoft DOES NOT GET security. Though I'll admit they do seem to be getting better about it. but I was refering more to the relation of problems in RedHat's CRAP distro No, calling Red Hat a 'CRAP' distro isn't bashing it at all, and certainly isn't inflamatory. How could it be? numbers. Everybody knows how the results are computed. Unfortunately, NOT everyone UNDERSTANDS the results. And this is exactly why this report shows up on Windows Informer and other such sites as evidence that Windows is better than Linux. That's poppycock. Utter bull$4!t. The numbers are largely meaningless. They fail to reflect the different goals, release strategies, and product offerings of each. So regardless of what numbers M$ is showing RH is still following in there footsteps of putting out software before it is ready (or secure) While Red Hat and other Linux distributors do this, there is a major difference between what they do and what Microsoft does. Distributors of Linux provide DEVELOPMENT versions of software, because often they provide functionality that people need and are generally usable, but they are generally quite clear that they are DEVELOPMENT versions, if you look at the software's documentation. This is also widely understood in the free software world. And, while you *can* buy this software from the distributor, it should always be remembered that it is FREE software. Free as in speech, AND free as in beer. You're welcome to download it for yourself, free of charge, if you like. Microsoft, on the other hand, is selling a product that they have developed and marketed as the solution to all your problems, when the reality is that the product IS all your problems. They're supposed to have the best programmers in the world working for them (if you ask them, that's what they'll tell you), but still they can't turn out a product that won't crash every 30 minutes on a fair number of configurations. Their operating system crashes often and takes all your work with it, even under virtually zero load. Linux systems rarely, if ever encounter such problems. And the best part is, you have to PAY Microsoft for the priviledge of having their products destroy your work for you. Linux is FREE. I used to like Windows. Honestly. My experience working with it is what turned me off to it. That, and numerous experiences where installing a new piece of software trashed my system completely. Such stories about Windows and related products are numerous all over the Internet and amongst people you know... I have never heard such a story about anyone using a Linux system, excepting: 1) an initial install of Linux, over an existing Windows machine 2) when someone inexperienced was playing around as root but shouldn't have been. These two exceptions ARE important ones. The first experience is also common for people who are (re)installing Windows for the first time, as well. Especially if they are not overly familiar with computers. The second case is a failure on the user's part to follow directions (including the possibility of not READING them in the first place). You can not blame Linux for either of these cases. They are human failures, not software failures. And in those instances, the same is true of Windows... The problem is, of course, that Windows fails so often in a wide variety of OTHER situations. Linux generally doesn't. Everything isn't about bashing linux so stop looking for a fight. See above. I'm not looking for a fight, but I do admit I like to argue, so I'll happily give you one if you ask for one. However, what I'm hoping to offer you instead is a (hopefully) clearer perspective about a) Linux, b) Windows being more secure than Linux based on statistics such as those you referenced, and c) why many of the people on this list DO bash Windows. In the latter case, when it is done, it is done for very good reason, and frankly has to do
Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org
What appears to be a rather frustrated newbie posted the following article at the CentraLUG web site: http://www.centralug.org/article.php?sid=37 * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: linux/windows security
*** On Tue, 12 Feb 2002 at 4:20am Paul Iadonisi shared this with the class:: Ray, I was going to let this go and not participate in this thread, but this set me off. Later in the above paragraph you state that you are not trying to start a distro war, but just a few lines previous you call Red Hat's distro a CRAP distro. I suggest taking a look at this blatant discrepency. Ok, I have to admit (and maybe someone caught this already) I was being a bit of a hypocrite. By this I mean I was saying bashing M$ wasn't cool (at least here) while I was being harsh on RH in my example. I was a bit hot headed and I always get that way because, as you said and I agree. Software development isn't an easy job and mistakes are made. Maybe I should take a writing class or possibly go gather my thoughts instead of feeding off my anger and getting right into it. I just don't like it when people from either camp refuses to admit that the other is necessary. When they most certainly are. I tolerate some jabs that Red Hat takes on this list and other Linux lists, because I know most of it is with the usual wink (;-)) and acknowledgement of at least two facts by the jab'er: 1) that software development is tough and we all make mistakes -- 2) Red Hat is the best know name in Linux (at least in this country) and as a result is under the brightest spotlight and therefore the highest scrutiny. Generally I am in the same camp as the others and I will very quickly tell a newbie to use Mandrake before venturing off in to Debian or BSD land. You are exactly right though -- to each his own I honestly believe that and think that trying to convince someone that one distro is better than another is just as bad as fighting over the usefulness of both Win and Lin. Most who take jabs at Red Hat, though they might not say it, seem to be willing to acknowledge that the distro is not CRAP, but might not be to their liking. That's fine -- to each his own. But I don't think I've ever I agree, sorry. irish temper. ;) seen anyone accuse the company of following in Microsoft's footsteps, except maybe some slashkiddies. Given, in particular, some recent news events I see hints of it sometimes, but like you said it can happen. about Microsoft's view on security (its view on the 'begin' bug, its fight against security info being published, etc.), I see that as a clear attack on the company. For now, I'm not going to debate why I am a Red Hat user and fan of their distribution, but just say that I find your accusations of their distribution Thanks, I'll refrain as well. :p indicate that you wish to incite a riot and I'm not going to egg you on. Not at all, again, I'm sorry. Again, baseless accusations. So Red Hat is a poorly run company, but yet Don't really want to get into it, but I was looking into the future of what could happen. I was basing it on some blunders they've made in a few releases (usually bundling bad software). I think the most recent dissapointment was (and I'm not an avid user so cut me some slack on the version) the release of 7.1. Wasn't that plagued with problems that could have been avoided had they not wanted to get it out there so fast? Anyway this is all speculation and was meant as such so it is also a matter of opinion and not worth arguing over. I know people personally who work at Red Hat and I'm sure they would have a lot to say about being told that they work for a 'poorly run company'. So I've got insiders' views, partner views (that I won't discuss publicly), an investor's view, and a user's view (my own and a few companies). All positive. Not perfect, but clearly positive. Ok then, here is my honest feeling on them. If you even care at this point ;). I beleive they have made mistakes and since Linux is so scrutinized by the public, mistakes need to be minimal. Obvious I know, but this should be of the highest priority of any company. this is a Linux Mailing list NOT and Anti-Microsoft mailing list. There is a difference! It's quite a stretch to say that calling a distribution CRAP yet claiming you are not trying to start a distro war is *honest*. If you were more generic and said something to the affect that we need to do better as a group (meaning the world of Linux distributions), then I'ld say you were being 'honest and critical about an OS you like'. Taken for how it's written, your post was little more than a troll, as Derek pointed out that some might call it. Point taken and given my comments above I think we're more or less on the same page. Ray -- Do not follow where the path may lead. Go instead where there is no path and leave a trail. * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org
*** On Tue, 12 Feb 2002 at 3:30pm Bruce Dawson shared this with the class:: What appears to be a rather frustrated newbie posted the following article at the CentraLUG web site: http://www.centralug.org/article.php?sid=37 Anyone have ideas on how to help. I think he has a decent idea. Heck, if it came down to it and someone wrote the logic I would type the content. Ray -- Do not follow where the path may lead. Go instead where there is no path and leave a trail. * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org
I'm not so sure I agree. I should preface the following with the fact that, although I am not newbie, I am certainly not an expert. I think that there is something to be said for arming yourself with as much book knowledge as possible, especially when experience is lacking *before* you take on something like a new operating system. There is no shortage of printed material at any self respecting bookstore on any particular flavor/distro of Linux. Personally, I picked up a 3 inch thick book on RH 6.0 a few years ago that is still the first place I turn when I have questions or problems (and find a surprising amount of answers). Amazingly enough, it has an index, as do the vast majority of the other books you may find on bookstore shelves. It would certainly be nice if there was some magical place/program that had all of the answers, but, as evidenced by posts to this group, not even very experienced users will ever know *everything* about even a single distribution. Consequently, I suppose such a project would always be lacking. What is feasible, however, is to suggest that new users spend some real time attempting to read and understand their new system instead of just brute-forcing their way through it. Publishers such as O'Reilly take great pains to make certain that the digestability of their books meet certain standards, all for this reason. I understand the frustration of the article's author, but as with all other things in life, with knowledge comes power. I certainly would never have attempted to change the head gasket in my father's engine without some understanding of what I would be facing (Honda never even attempted to provide any information in the owner's manual). If you want to do it yourself, whether you are attempting to be your own sysadmin or car mechanic, fine manuals can make all the difference. As long as you read them... -Mike- --- Ray Bowles [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: *** On Tue, 12 Feb 2002 at 3:30pm Bruce Dawson shared this with the class:: What appears to be a rather frustrated newbie posted the following article at the CentraLUG web site: http://www.centralug.org/article.php?sid=37 Anyone have ideas on how to help. I think he has a decent idea. Heck, if it came down to it and someone wrote the logic I would type the content. Ray -- Do not follow where the path may lead. Go instead where there is no path and leave a trail. __ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! http://greetings.yahoo.com * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org
*** On Tue, 12 Feb 2002 at 1:36pm Michael Costolo shared this with the class:: I think that there is something to be said for arming yourself with as much book knowledge as possible, especially when experience is lacking *before* you take on something like a new operating system. There is no shortage of printed material at any self respecting bookstore on any particular flavor/distro of Linux. Personally, I picked up a 3 inch thick book on RH 6.0 a few years ago that is still the first place I turn when I have questions or problems (and find a surprising amount of answers). Amazingly enough, it has an index, as do the vast majority of the other books you may find on bookstore shelves. True on book knowledge, but sometimes knowledge is like crack. ROFL :0 you need to give a newbie a couple of freebies and eventually they can't ask you 24/7 and a book is necessary. What is feasible, however, is to suggest that new users spend some real time attempting to read and understand their new system instead of just brute-forcing their way through it. Publishers such as O'Reilly take great pains to make certain Isn't that how we all got started as kids. breaking stuff and putting it back together with help from peers? Ray -- Do not follow where the path may lead. Go instead where there is no path and leave a trail. * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org
Yes, I think it is how we learn. Break things, try to figure them out, and get help when you need it. But when you break something and someone else fixes it for you (you only type what they tell you to), I think you miss out on the learning experience. Running a Linux box means you are your own sysadmin. This is something that you don't get so much with some other operating systems. It's the whole give a man a fish/teach a man to fish all over again. If you really want to learn how to run Linux, you will inevitably have to understand the response from man tar. Yes it's confusing, and perhaps understanding it at day 1 is silly, but it should be fairly high on the list. Somewhere after man man. But I still think the attempt to assemble a document/executable program that goes over every fine detail of starting out in Linux is unreasonable. Whereas books don't require X or a mouse and you can access them offline 100% of the time. From what I recall of the article, they fit all of the author's needs. -Mike- --- Ray Bowles [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: *** On Tue, 12 Feb 2002 at 1:36pm Michael Costolo shared this with the class:: I think that there is something to be said for arming yourself with as much book knowledge as possible, especially when experience is lacking *before* you take on something like a new operating system. There is no shortage of printed material at any self respecting bookstore on any particular flavor/distro of Linux. Personally, I picked up a 3 inch thick book on RH 6.0 a few years ago that is still the first place I turn when I have questions or problems (and find a surprising amount of answers). Amazingly enough, it has an index, as do the vast majority of the other books you may find on bookstore shelves. True on book knowledge, but sometimes knowledge is like crack. ROFL :0 you need to give a newbie a couple of freebies and eventually they can't ask you 24/7 and a book is necessary. What is feasible, however, is to suggest that new users spend some real time attempting to read and understand their new system instead of just brute-forcing their way through it. Publishers such as O'Reilly take great pains to make certain Isn't that how we all got started as kids. breaking stuff and putting it back together with help from peers? Ray -- Do not follow where the path may lead. Go instead where there is no path and leave a trail. __ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! http://greetings.yahoo.com * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org
Interesting. Very common set of problems. The real problem is this: What the heck is a newbie doing attempting to install a complex operating system? Many new distros, particularly Red Hat and Mandrake, have very nice GUI installation programs that work wonderfully, and install automatically WHEN THEY WORK. The end result is a completely installed OS that can now be used by the newbie to learn Linux (Mandrake puts many links on the desktop to get help, from help files for the desktop environment, to help on the web, to browsers for man pages.) But when they DON'T work, you're screwed unless you know what you are doing. The real issue is that the newbie COULDN'T INSTALL the OS, not that he couldn't use it. What happens if a Windows installation bombs? Well, if the GUI doesn't work because of a bad configuration or screwy drivers, guess what? There IS NO COMMAND LINE to fall back on. He is dead in the water (maybe he starts in safe mode, which is a waste because NOTHING WORKS in safe mode and you can't see any of your configuration settings in safe mode.) OK, what if it boots, and you can actually see a desktop, but some piece of hardware like your modem or printer doesn't work? You think Windows Help system is useful? It may be THERE, but there's nothing substantive in it, so what good is it? You still either a) need to be an expert, or b) need a book, or c) need to call your computer geek friend to help you. If every computer came with Linux installed, and the Windows users had to wipe the disk and install their favorite OS, the tables would be turned, I assure you. My solution: get someone to help you install the thing at least! Rich Cloutier President, C*O SYSTEM SUPPORT SERVICES www.sysupport.com - Original Message - From: Bruce Dawson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 3:30 PM Subject: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org What appears to be a rather frustrated newbie posted the following article at the CentraLUG web site: http://www.centralug.org/article.php?sid=37 * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. * * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 At some point hitherto, Mansur, Warren hath spake thusly: I was actually on a newsgroup where someone had never user tar before. They read the man page, and after trying and trying to understand all the options they just got frustrated and posted to the newsgroup asking how to make a simple tar file or expand a simple tar file. Here again, books are the answer. They generally show you how to perform the more common tasks, with fairly precise examples. A great book for this is Nemeth, et. al., Unix System Administrator's Handbook. It covers Linux, and they will soon be releasing a Linux-specific version of the book. :) Perhaps the most common uses could be displayed at the top and leave the more advanced uses for later on. I understand your point, but might be inclined to disagree. In my experience, the most common usage of man pages is to look up some option that you've forgotten. Having that information closest to the top is more efficient for finding it. True, if you're new to a particular command, the Synopsis section has a lot of information in it that will be meaningless to you unless the command has reletively few options which are perhaps somewhat self-explanatory, but if that's the case just ignore the Synopsis section altogether until you've read the rest of the man page. I usually read the description first, and then look for an examples section, if one exists. This section provides what you're talking about. Unfortunately, many man pages don't have such a section. This tends to be true of GNU software, which favors info over man pages (don't get me started). When I took my Intro to Unix course at UML, the instructor (Gerry Poulin, who I think some of the DECies might know) told us the trick to reading man pages is to learn how to read them. The key is understanding how the information is presented. Read the sections that are appropriate to what you're trying to learn, and skim (or ignore) the rest. One advantage of man pages is being able to pipe them into other commands such as grep, whereas interactive help doesn't allow for pipes. I'm not really sure this is an advantage... You don't need to pipe man pages into grep to search them. On most Linux systems, `less' is the default pager for man pages, and it is perfectly capable of searching man pages. For those who may not know, most of the vi key commands that deal with navigation and searching work in less. Of course, you do need to know about the feature before you can use it... This is where book learning (and reading man pages) comes in. I would also like to point out that many distributions, and Red Hat in particular, DO come with printed manuals that are aimed at the newbie. I don't have a copy of them handy, but I remember them as being oriented at the new user and fairly well done. And for those who didn't BUY Red Hat, the manuals are (or at least were at one time) included on the CD in a reasonably intuitive directory (cdroot/docs or some such, IIRC). They can also be installed as rpms. Or at least they could last I still cared to have them... back around RH 6.1 IIRC. - -- Derek Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] - - I prefer mail encrypted with PGP/GPG! GnuPG Key ID: 0x81CFE75D Retrieve my public key at http://pgp.mit.edu Learn more about it at http://www.gnupg.org -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8aZmtdjdlQoHP510RAgNXAJsGjI709kTRG0tuQLDwrMyFHAo7aQCfcfNA NH8OkyqEpXpS1fxx/eOoCF8= =wUCE -END PGP SIGNATURE- * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 At some point hitherto, Ray Bowles hath spake thusly: have walked at least 6 of my friends through Linux installs, Bind/Apache/Sendmail/MySQL and other installs and never once did I say RTFM. That's great! But it's really hard to do that in an e-mail... And of course they learn less by having you do it for them, if they are at all like most people. - -- Derek Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] - - I prefer mail encrypted with PGP/GPG! GnuPG Key ID: 0x81CFE75D Retrieve my public key at http://pgp.mit.edu Learn more about it at http://www.gnupg.org -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8aZqGdjdlQoHP510RApwQAJwKL7WCBgGZgZlepwg11o0xMvX9CQCePrjl fwiL79ZHX1f8q3hyElig4mY= =Rduj -END PGP SIGNATURE- * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: GNHLUG Tee Shirt spotted in the Carribean
At http://news.gnhlug.org/article.php?sid=374 is: Yes. I can confirm that the GNHLUG shirt wearer is our own Ben Smith! By the way - he seemed interested in hosting a Geek Cruise if anyone would come. It would probably be next year and sail out of Tortola, BWI. We''re working on the Internet Connectivity While at Sea problem. Its non-trivial. Note that his ship (Mother of Perl) does have an ethernet network on board (and used to have a Linux server until I brought it back to see what I can do to upgrade it). * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: Newbie article...
Well, as another newbie I guess I'll chime in here with a few lighthearted comments. Bottom line -- its not easy being a newbie ;0) Its fun to hear something of what's going on for the experts on this list, but most of the time I don't understand what is being discussed. That's okay, its still a great way to pick up details that DO matter to me as various threads develop. My situation seems a bit more complicated as I jumped into Linux on the Macintosh/PPC platform. I naively thought that Linux was Linux, the same no matter where you go and all would be well. It has been only by the help of a couple expert friends that I was able to get some basic things configured including screen res. And my friend tells me that after we've been through a bunch of hassles, I probably need to recompile X (or something) to get some essential research software to draw plots on the screen correctly. Well, since we all rely on *actual users* to figure out how to get things to work, this is not surprising -- BUT for 75 bucks SuSE claims to support my specific machine (PowerBook G3) for a relatively painless install, which it wasn't. Rich's comments ring true about getting help installing. As far as *free* is concerned, I have so far invested about $200 in SuSE 7.1, then 7.3, a book on some Unix user basics, and just this weekend a thick Que book on Using Linux. This is far more than I paid for the even high priced Mac OS X, which INCLUDED the latest OS 9. I'm not bitter about that, it is a fun learning experience but damn this learning curve is STEEP :0) To be fair, I also have about 11 years of Mac experience under the belt, and I can troubleshoot and fix almost anything on the Mac platform, but I never had to buy no $50 dam book to start getting work done on the mac! For me, the following Linux issues remain -- 1) I still am not able to just boot Linux up and start getting work done; too much of a paradigm shift. There must be some good tutorials on the web for new users , but of all the sites I've visited I havent found much that is explained in a way that makes sense to me. I keep thinking at some point things will begin to fit into some zenlike big picture, and then I think what if Linux is like some bizarro world from a Terry Gilliam film where no, dammit, it doesn't HAVE to make sense! (insert maniacal laughter here :0) 2) Still looking for some grand explanation to make sense of whats in all those directories, and where I go if I want to see how something is configured. This is where the concept of the installfest could be extended to something more like counseling for frustrated newbies! Haha! 3) Linux is not MacOS and its not Windows, and by the way its not your mother. I think its cool that Linux is wild and free and continually developing, and I have wanted to be a part of that ever since the development of some linux-only research software that I couldn't have published a paper without. I really hope Linux is the future. Its just been too difficult to master by fiddling around. Back to the books! --Michael -- ^^ Michael L. Bovee, Ph.D. Postdoctoral Fellow University of Vermont Department of Biochemistry B403 Given Building Burlington, VT 05405-0068 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://biochem.uvm.edu Lab 802-656-0345 FAX 802-862-8229 ^^ * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: Newbie article...
Michael, I would say that some of the challenges you face are arch specific (choosing to start on PPC). Now this isn't a criticism, but the problem you run into is that while there are probably a handleful of people on this list that can help you with doing X, booting a PPC machine is different from booting and i386, and anywhere you run into different hardware it gets difficult, if only because the number of people with the knowledge is less and the number of people developing for that arch is less. Now, having said that, if it makes you feel any better I'm composing this on an Alpha (in Linux), my main workstation is an Alpha, and there's a SPARC across the room happily running Debian. --rdp On Tue, 12 Feb 2002, Michael Bovee wrote: Well, as another newbie I guess I'll chime in here with a few lighthearted comments. Bottom line -- its not easy being a newbie ;0) Its fun to hear something of what's going on for the experts on this list, but most of the time I don't understand what is being discussed. That's okay, its still a great way to pick up details that DO matter to me as various threads develop. My situation seems a bit more complicated as I jumped into Linux on the Macintosh/PPC platform. I naively thought that Linux was Linux, the same no matter where you go and all would be well. It has been only by the help of a couple expert friends that I was able to get some basic things configured including screen res. And my friend tells me that after we've been through a bunch of hassles, I probably need to recompile X (or something) to get some essential research software to draw plots on the screen correctly. Well, since we all rely on *actual users* to figure out how to get things to work, this is not surprising -- BUT for 75 bucks SuSE claims to support my specific machine (PowerBook G3) for a relatively painless install, which it wasn't. Rich's comments ring true about getting help installing. As far as *free* is concerned, I have so far invested about $200 in SuSE 7.1, then 7.3, a book on some Unix user basics, and just this weekend a thick Que book on Using Linux. This is far more than I paid for the even high priced Mac OS X, which INCLUDED the latest OS 9. I'm not bitter about that, it is a fun learning experience but damn this learning curve is STEEP :0) To be fair, I also have about 11 years of Mac experience under the belt, and I can troubleshoot and fix almost anything on the Mac platform, but I never had to buy no $50 dam book to start getting work done on the mac! For me, the following Linux issues remain -- 1) I still am not able to just boot Linux up and start getting work done; too much of a paradigm shift. There must be some good tutorials on the web for new users , but of all the sites I've visited I havent found much that is explained in a way that makes sense to me. I keep thinking at some point things will begin to fit into some zenlike big picture, and then I think what if Linux is like some bizarro world from a Terry Gilliam film where no, dammit, it doesn't HAVE to make sense! (insert maniacal laughter here :0) 2) Still looking for some grand explanation to make sense of whats in all those directories, and where I go if I want to see how something is configured. This is where the concept of the installfest could be extended to something more like counseling for frustrated newbies! Haha! 3) Linux is not MacOS and its not Windows, and by the way its not your mother. I think its cool that Linux is wild and free and continually developing, and I have wanted to be a part of that ever since the development of some linux-only research software that I couldn't have published a paper without. I really hope Linux is the future. Its just been too difficult to master by fiddling around. Back to the books! --Michael -- Rich Payne http://talisman.mv.com * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: Newbie article...
I've been using Linux (with varying success, ya), since Yggdrasil days. Everything which has been written here seems valid to me. (Yes, including the post which is latest as I write this, which is essentially YARTFM (believe it or not.)) Among the sapient (IMO) comments: Michael Bovee wrote: 3) Linux is not MacOS and its not Windows, and by the way its not your mother. I think its cool that Linux is wild and free and continually developing, and I have wanted to be a part of that ever since the development of some linux-only research software that I couldn't have published a paper without. I really hope Linux is the future. Amen. Its just been too difficult to master by fiddling around. Truly so. And the man pages have no index; I still wouldn't be able to get a kernel to compile if not for Ben Scott's comments. --- In the ham radio world there is, and has been since the very earliest days, the concept of Elmer. Elmer is the older ham who takes the newcomer (the term newbie had yet to be invented, and besides, hams always prided themselves on avoiding condescension, whether in terminology or in practice) and shows him the ropes - how to cut an antenna, how to copy the code, how to solder,... and most importantly to a ham, how to make that first, terrifying contact on the air. I don't know as much as most posters on this list. But I've been an Elmer. I hereby offer to be an Elmer to some newbie: call me. An evening breaking through the code of man pages (ugh) will do us both good. Can't be any tougher than Morse Code. Perhaps I'm not the only one who would be willing to be an Elmer to some newbie(*), either. BTW, where is Center Barnstead? Bill N1BFK 603 654-2254 -- (*) It's not as though a newbie was just some customer at CompUSA, needing Revelation. For example, the signature of the original poster included: I'm a Linux Newbie, but I'm not a PC nor GUI newbie. M$ has forgotten about the user in graphical user interface. Fair enough: In return, I choose to forget M$. She deserves better than RTFM. Doesn't she? * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: Newbie article...
On Tue, 12 Feb 2002, Bill Sconce [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Truly so. And the man pages have no index; Not a full index, but man -k keyword (aka apropos(1)) and whatis(1) are fairly useful for this. No? The gnu special: man -K keyword is slow (at least on my old HW) but I guess technically acts as an index... * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org
Sorry to pipe in, but I must. The fact is that the learning / use curve of Linux, particularly compared to Windows, is very high. I completely agree that the man pages are confusing. They often lack real world examples as well. This can be very imposing to the new user. The response well they obviously didn't read the man man is just plain stupid and completely misses the point (sorry, no offense to whomever posted that remark, it's very a very typical response). It's as far off base as they didn't read the how-to's in the LDP. The point is the average newbie doesn't have a clue about these things. That's the definition of a newbie. Now, conversely I'm not suggesting that these newbies become instant sysadmins. Absolutely there is a place, and a need, for people and documentation for those well versed in Linux. So, I understand where those with a great deal of experience are coming from. However, I've got twenty books here. I'm only a casual user of Linux and I don't use it day in and day out but I use it as often as I can. It can be very, very difficult to remember exact commands and syntax and most of the time the man pages do little to clear things up. They do an excellent job of giving me the full breadth of a command but are far weaker for telling me how to make something work. The books do a far better job but it's awkward and difficult to always have the books around. Also, although man pages are in the same general format some are pretty good. Some are... ummm, not as good :-) It has always amazed me just how recalcitrant the Linux community is about making the system easier to use. Note that I didn't say less complex. Just some way to lower the entry bar. Many people, such as myself, learn by getting their hands dirty. If I screw it up too badly I just reinstall. Despite a great deal of reading I've found very little in the way of good beginners guides (I've read quite a few weak or poor beginners guides) and certainly nothing built into the system. So, any newbies out there just keep reading and learning. This list gets fairly interesting sometimes but I don't think I've ever seen a question go by without someone answering it, no matter how difficult or simple. In fact I've seen some pretty amazing problems and concepts batted around here. Some of the people on this list are really, really good. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 16:08:21 EST Mansur, Warren said: One problem I see with man pages is that they throw off the newbie user by putting every possible option at the top. If a new user sees this, they will probably be as confused as ever: Well, yes, but I often find that people's problems with reading man pages is that they don't know how. Why? They never ran 'man man' which clearly states: The following conventions apply to the SYNOPSIS section and can be used as a guide in other sections. bold text type exactly as shown. italic textreplace with appropriate argument. [-abc] any or all arguments within [ ] are optional. So, for this one person reading the tar man page, all they needed to know was that all those things at the top were *options*. Every now and then I hear this argument that man pages stink and there must be a better way! Why? They've worked great for over 30 years. At one time I was a newbie and didn't have a clue about Unix, but I got through by reading man pages, asking questions on mailing lists and usenet, and surfing the web. If I can do it, anyone can, as long as they're patient and willing to roll up their sleeves and read! * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. * * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Sun Announcement
OK, so I usually don't post things like this to Gnhlug but I laughed out loud when I read this one, from: http://www.vnunet.com/News/1129199 a quote from Ed Zander, president of Sun: Linux was created over time and was mirrored on Solaris; you can go back and forth easily. We share the same philosophy, and are the one company that can do this, he said. What? Linux was mirrored on Solaris? You can easily go back and forth? After having admined both for the last three years I can attest that nothing is further from the truth! I don't know what drugs they are taking over at Sun, but I wish they would share! --rdp -- Rich Payne http://talisman.mv.com * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: Sun Announcement
On Tue, 12 Feb 2002, Rich Payne wrote: What? Linux was mirrored on Solaris? You can easily go back and forth? You mis-understand. He means the master kernel site server is located right next to a SPARCStation 10 that keeps a backup copy of the kernel sources. (Okay, I made that up. But so did the Sun guy.) -- Ben Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] | The opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not | | necessarily represent the views or policy of any other person, entity or | | organization. All information is provided without warranty of any kind. | * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: linux/windows security
*** On Tue, 12 Feb 2002 at 5:32pm Paul Iadonisi shared this with the class:: Today, if you look at the default install for 7.2, for example, you'll find that Red Hat has take several very good steps at making the default install more secure. They don't start services unnecessarily that listen on network interfaces other than the loopback interface (sendmail, for instance). Any idea why they replaced lynx with links? Is it just a renamed bin? Ray -- Do not follow where the path may lead. Go instead where there is no path and leave a trail. * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: Sun Announcement
On Tue, 12 Feb 2002, Benjamin Scott wrote: On Tue, 12 Feb 2002, Rich Payne wrote: What? Linux was mirrored on Solaris? You can easily go back and forth? You mis-understand. He means the master kernel site server is located right next to a SPARCStation 10 that keeps a backup copy of the kernel sources. (Okay, I made that up. But so did the Sun guy.) It sounds much more beleivable! --rdp -- Rich Payne http://talisman.mv.com * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org
*** On Tue, 12 Feb 2002 at 5:43pm Derek D. Martin shared this with the class:: That's great! But it's really hard to do that in an e-mail... And of course they learn less by having you do it for them, if they are at all like most people. I find that not to be the case. In my example of the kid that moved to FL and helped someelse install a box. The kid that moved was a musican by trade and in no way would qualify as a PC geek. But he got it installed and then began learning about whatever app it was he was most interested in to begin with and eventually absorbed enough knowlege to do an install himself. Once people gain a little confidence their outlook and determination levels change dramatically. Ray -- Do not follow where the path may lead. Go instead where there is no path and leave a trail. * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: linux/windows security
*** On Tue, 12 Feb 2002 at 6:23pm Derek D. Martin shared this with the class:: If you limited the advisories to just those programs, you'd be down to a handful of them... I'll also point out that it's much easier to find (AND FIX) these things on Linux, because the source code is available, and there are millions of people all over the world who are doing exactly that. With any proprietary vendor's product, you're dependent on them to fix it. When they get around to it. Or IF. And that's a great thing. I have to disagree and without naming names I know Linux users that will swear by WinXP and MS's latest development suite. Myself included. Although I still prefer emacs for C development. Um, is it just me, or did you just contradict yourself? Nope .NET studio is great for C# and ASP+ coding. The suite does many things well. I just like my little emacs screen in X for some reason and I know all of the key commands. NOT TRUE I LEAVE MY XP SYSTEM ON FOR AT LEAST A WEEK AT A TIME. First off, one example does not make a case. OK I never shut off my XP box at work ;) But come on! Are we supposed to be impressed by this? It's remeniscent of the recent Win2k ad that said no one's watching the servers, and they've been up for DAYS. My wife uses the PC when I'm at work and I use it when I get home so it doesn't just sit there and we both do very different things with it. I know people who reboot their whole NT farm once a week as preventative maintenance. And I did say that linux well exceded Windows in that department. Why should a home user not expect that it CAN be up that long, if they need it to be? [ddm@sol ddm] $ uptime 5:53pm up 104 days, 1:18, 1 user, load average: 0.07, 0.02, 0.00 Darnit!! I'm right behind you... ray@seth:~$ uptime 11:53pm up 98 days, 8:34, 2 users, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00 ;) /me Waiting for daylight savings so my clock will be right again. couldn't figure out how to change it. Sorry Ray, but no you don't. I don't play games on Linux, largely because most of the game companies won't port to Linux, and rebooting for those that do is too much of a hastle. I have, however, had several occasions when my windows partition would not cooperate with Dave's network, which is probably what you're remembering. And I was far from the only one who's had problems with their windows machine at Dave's LAN parties. I was actually repeating what someone (maybe dave, but not sure) had told me. sorry if I was given bad info. Don't get me wrong you are very good with linux and I would ask you before anyone for help with it, but you see my point about games. And it's not just the Games themselves there really isn't a good foundation for that type of thing but it is gettting there fast. Thank's nVidia. I hear RTCW isn't bad in Linux and can outperform Windows @ an average of 6fps in OGL not sure Linux would do as well compared to the DirectX frame rates but then again there is no way of telling since DX is closed. Not true. well written software no matter the platform WILL compensate for user error. That's the most ridiculous thing I've heard today. Software can't read your mind. If you tell it yes, I really do want to delete my Windows partition and write oodles of random data over what was once there, when in fact you didn't, there's not a peice of software in the universe that can compensate for such an error. Not sure a user can do that in Windows. Anyone wanna try? ;) typical install, I might add. I think you might be surprised how your mom would fare, if in fact she could handle the install for either. Actually last weekend I TRIED installing RH, Progeny, Potato, Woody, Stormix, Mandrake on my main workstation. RH, Potato and Stormix failed to even begin the install. Progeny installed but X didn't work and my console kept blinking every couple of minutes and would hang for 30 seconds in that state. Woody also installed and had I not botched the kernel upgrade would have worked great. In the interst of trying it I through MDK on and it installed fairly well. Although I had to manualy configure and start my NIC and edit several xfre86*** files and rc.local to get my mouse to work properly and after I ran the MDK upgrade all my previous settings were lost so I had to manually reset the same settings. On the same machine (Dual-boot) XP installed itself although it took what seemed forever. So I think my mom would still fare better with Windows. sorry Ray -- Do not follow where the path may lead. Go instead where there is no path and leave a trail. * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: linux/windows security
On Tue, 12 Feb 2002, Ray Bowles wrote: *** On Tue, 12 Feb 2002 at 2:26pm Derek D. Martin shared this with the class:: product that won't crash every 30 minutes on a fair number of configurations. Their operating system crashes often and takes all your work with it, even under virtually zero load. Linux systems NOT TRUE I LEAVE MY XP SYSTEM ON FOR AT LEAST A WEEK AT A TIME. And yet my girlfriend, who has XP on a p4 1+G with 512M of ram has to reboot everytime she puts in a game for our kid. Apparently the system doesn't have enough resources to play the game even though nothing else is running. rarely, if ever encounter such problems. And the best part is, you have to PAY Microsoft for the priviledge of having their products destroy your work for you. Linux is FREE. True and a very nice part of the OS. My Debian box has been up just shy of 100 days now and although that's unbelievable, What home user needs their machine up for 100 days straight? I do. My home is networked. To get onto the internet everyyone goes through 192.168.0.1. If that machine is turned off, there is no internet avilable. -- Thomas M. Albright (Linux user number 234357) Amendment IV The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
(OT) email
I need to get an email address that I can reach for school purposes for a few months. Can anyone recommend any free email service somewhere that is not one of the big spam outfits? Mediaone does not always seem to be available to reach from the outside of late. Sean * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: linux/windows security
On Tue, Feb 12, 2002 at 11:17:47PM -0500, Ray Bowles wrote: *** On Tue, 12 Feb 2002 at 5:32pm Paul Iadonisi shared this with the class:: Today, if you look at the default install for 7.2, for example, you'll find that Red Hat has take several very good steps at making the default install more secure. They don't start services unnecessarily that listen on network interfaces other than the loopback interface (sendmail, for instance). Any idea why they replaced lynx with links? Is it just a renamed bin? Actually, lynx is still there, but I don't know if it's installed by default. I think it goes like this: lynx doesn't support frames, links does lynx supports ssl, links doesn't (didn't?) you can navigate with mouse clicks in links, you can't in lynx The big thing the frames support. I expect that when links has ssl support that lynx will go a way. I don't think Red Hat has a problem with lynx, but the frames support is probably what prompted it to migrate to links. On Tue, Feb 12, 2002 at 06:23:57PM -0500, Derek D. Martin wrote: So does Red Hat. With no reboots, and quite a bit faster, for a typical install, I might add. I think you might be surprised how your mom would fare, if in fact she could handle the install for either. As an FYI, I've had my Mom using Linux for years (from Red Hat 6.1 up through 7.2) without any problems related to Linux. I had an advantage, though, in that she had never used *any* computer before. -- -Paul Iadonisi Senior System Administrator Red Hat Certified Engineer / Local Linux Lobbyist Ever see a penguin fly? -- Try Linux. GPL all the way: Sell services, don't lease secrets -- -Paul Iadonisi Senior System Administrator Red Hat Certified Engineer / Local Linux Lobbyist Ever see a penguin fly? -- Try Linux. GPL all the way: Sell services, don't lease secrets * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: linux/windows security
*** On Tue, 12 Feb 2002 at 10:48pm Thomas M. Albright shared this with the...: I do. My home is networked. To get onto the internet everyyone goes through 192.168.0.1. If that machine is turned off, there is no internet avilable. Thankfully Linux has this capability and for the average user I spoke about SMC has a nice solution that runs linux in a small box and uses much less energy. Ray -- Do not follow where the path may lead. Go instead where there is no path and leave a trail. * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: (OT) email
*** On 12 Feb 2002 at 10:58pm R. Sean Hartnett shared this with the class:: I need to get an email address that I can reach for school purposes for a few months. Can anyone recommend any free email service somewhere that is not one of the big spam outfits? Mediaone does not always seem to be available to reach from the outside of late. How much mail do you expect to get on a daily basis? I could probably help if you just need pop or pine access. Ray -- Do not follow where the path may lead. Go instead where there is no path and leave a trail. * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: linux/windows security
*** On Tue, 12 Feb 2002 at 10:53pm Paul Iadonisi shared this with the class:: The big thing the frames support. I expect that when links has ssl support that lynx will go a way. I don't think Red Hat has a problem with lynx, but the frames support is probably what prompted it to migrate to links. Thanks As an FYI, I've had my Mom using Linux for years (from Red Hat 6.1 up through 7.2) without any problems related to Linux. I had an advantage, though, in that she had never used *any* computer before. Cool Ray -- Do not follow where the path may lead. Go instead where there is no path and leave a trail. * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: Mailer errors question
On Sun, 10 Feb 2002, Karl J. Runge wrote: I naively thought Errors-To: was the only way to do this. (I grepped and saw this string in the majordomo code, but that was likely regarding subscription, etc, activities, not posts) A lot of software support(s|ed) the use of Errors-To, because at one time (when UUCP was the norm and SMTP was unusual), it was the only way to accomplish what we are talking about. I suspect that is what you saw. Let me see if I understand you, a posting's header might look like: From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: ... From: Benjamin Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Greater NH Linux Users' Group [EMAIL PROTECTED] ... So replies would (likely) go to the From: address, but errors to the From address? Incorrect. That inital From line is part of the message storage mechanism (your Unix mailbox), and has nothing to do with message transfer. The actual message begins with the line immediately following the From line. (Note the distinction between the From line and the From: line. The former is part of the message storage mechanism; the later is part of the message itself.) (What follows is a brief (!) explaination. Even so, I have to go into some detail. Casual users will want to stop reading now, to avoid eye-glazing problems.) Internet messages, at the highest level, consist of an envelope and the message contents. The content is the entire message you see on your system. The envelope is the conceptual entitity used to transport the contents between systems. Users never see the envelope. In more pragmatic terms, the contents of the message begin with the first message header, and end with the last line of the message body. The envelope is the SMTP session that was used to transfer it between systems. When an SMTP message transfer is performed, I (as the sender-SMTP) provide a reverse-path (MAIL FROM) and one or more forward-paths (RCPT TO). The forward-paths specify which mailboxes the message should be delivered to. The reverse-path is used if a DSN (Delivery Status Notification, AKA bounce message) needs to be sent back, e.g., because a forward-path proves to be undeliverable. When you (as the User Agent) read a message, you see only the message contents. If you wish to reply to the message, you look for a Sender: or From: header, and use the listed address. You have no knowledge of the envelope. Typically, the reverse-path and the From: header corespond. Likewise, the forward-path and the To:, Cc:, and Bcc: headers usually add up to the same set. They can, however, differ. In the case of a mailing list like this one, the typical behavior is: The From: header indicates the original sender of the message (e.g., you or me), while the reverse-path is the address of the list supervisor (which might be a person or a robot). (The above, of course, contains simplificiations and omissions. You can find the full details in RFC-2822 (Internet Message Format) and RFC-2821 (Simple Mail Transfer Protocol). Those two documents define what we think of as Internet email. They are the new versions of the classic RFC-821 and RFC-822 documents, accurately described as the most popular RFCs ever.) Are you sorry you asked, now? :-) -- Ben Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] | The opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not | | necessarily represent the views or policy of any other person, entity or | | organization. All information is provided without warranty of any kind. | * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: (OT) email
On 12 Feb 2002, R. Sean Hartnett wrote: Can anyone recommend any free email service somewhere that is not one of the big spam outfits? Free services work on advert dollars. Small services cannot attract significant advertisers. Thus, small free services are destined for failure. It would be difficult to recommend such an operation. If you want free, sign up with Yahoo. :-) -- Ben Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] | The opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not | | necessarily represent the views or policy of any other person, entity or | | organization. All information is provided without warranty of any kind. | * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: (OT) email
Quoting Benjamin Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED]: http://www.ductape.net is a free, hosted service. Works VERY well.. On 12 Feb 2002, R. Sean Hartnett wrote: Can anyone recommend any free email service somewhere that is not one of the big spam outfits? Free services work on advert dollars. Small services cannot attract significant advertisers. Thus, small free services are destined for failure. It would be difficult to recommend such an operation. If you want free, sign up with Yahoo. :-) --- Thomas Charron Is beadarrach an ni an onair * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: linux/windows security
- Original Message - From: Thomas M. Albright [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: GNHLUG [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 10:48 PM Subject: Re: linux/windows security And yet my girlfriend, who has XP on a p4 1+G with 512M of ram has to reboot everytime she puts in a game for our kid. Apparently the system doesn't have enough resources to play the game even though nothing else is running. Very few people credit the real source of most crashes: drivers. The game obviously uses some feature of some driver somewhere (probably video) that crashes the machine. Otherwise, if it WERE a resource issue, you would be able to open 35 copies of Outlook and accomplish the same thing (crash the machine.) But I bet you can't do it that way. I run Windows ME at work (in addition to Linux of course.) Everyone I talk to says ME is a POS. Everyone who says this says it's slow and crashes a lot. NOBODY I have encountered who trashes ME has bothered to go in and turn off all the automatic stuff like System Restore and Automatic Updating that are not included in Win9x. They also have not bothered to track down the cause of crashes, by either changing configurations, or updating (or in some cases, backdating) drivers. The slowness and unreliability of ME is, in my opinion, an Urban Legend. You wouldn't say, Linux is a POS if your X server kept crashing, right? Well, because Windows is all integrated and most people can't discern a video problem from a network problem from a disk access problem, it's all a POS to them. The other half of the problem is that Microsoft, unlike the Linux community, gives up NO information to the user about what is going on (or not going on) in their system. In Linux, there are messages and logs galore, mostly an offshoot of the shared development process. It makes it very easy to diagnose system problems in this environment (except I'm not sure how much use the message, I can't find root and I want to scream! is.) ;o) As with any system, a computer is a system, and in order to determine the problem, you need to test each component to determine where the problem is. Because of Windows' drawbacks, many people cannot do this. [snip comparison of linux' uptime to that of my SMC router] Rich Cloutier SYSTEM SUPPORT SERVICES President, C*O www.sysupport.com * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: (OT) email
I've been using usa.net (http://www.netaddress.net to signup) for a number of years. It now costs me $20/year. I get web access, forwarding, and POP access. My wife uses the web access from work. I use the POP with fetchmail to my firewall. For $20/year, I get some spam filtering no ads on the web access. I'd do some work on google for an address. Benjamin Scott said: On 12 Feb 2002, R. Sean Hartnett wrote: Can anyone recommend any free email service somewhere that is not one of the big spam outfits? Free services work on advert dollars. Small services cannot attract significant advertisers. Thus, small free services are destined for failure. It would be difficult to recommend such an operation. If you want free, sign up with Yahoo. :-) -- Ben Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] | The opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not | | necessarily represent the views or policy of any other person, entity or | | organization. All information is provided without warranty of any kind. | -- --- Tom Buskey * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: linux/windows security
- Original Message - From: Derek D. Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Rich Cloutier [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 12:01 AM Subject: Re: linux/windows security While I have had driver issues in the past, I do not find, in my experience, that they have caused the majority of my crashes. Usually it is specific applications that cause the problem, and it seems to be conflicts in or problems with other DLL's, perhaps changed APIs that cause the worst/most frequent problems on Windows systems I've used before. I have been told that Microsoft will happily change their APIs to suit themselves, and since they're often undocumented or poorly documented, the application developers are sorta stuck... This is true as well. However, your scenario applies more to APPLICATION crashes, not WINDOWS crashes, which is what I was talking about. My fault for not being clearer. Rich Cloutier SYSTEM SUPPORT SERVICES President, C*O www.sysupport.com * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org
On Tue, 12 Feb 2002, Derek D. Martin wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 At some point hitherto, Greg Kettmann hath spake thusly: It has always amazed me just how recalcitrant the Linux community is about making the system easier to use. Note that I didn't say less complex. Just some way to lower the entry bar. I agree to some degree, and I think it wouldn't be that hard to pull off either. I think all that's really needed is some nice GUI for installing applications and (this part's key, IMO) automatically creating desktop menus/shortcuts for both KDE and Gnome, when it's clear that one or both of those are available. Mandrake has focused on this very thing in recent distro development: their GUI install routinely wins over reviewers that compare it to the other distros for newbie-friendliness, their GUI RPM manager (rpmdrake) is reasonably easy to get the hang of, especially for security updates, and their shared menu system is available in every WM/desktop environment on the box - most all of the Mandrake-specific RPMs (*mdk.rpm) update this, and you can add to it using menudrake. Do any of these enhancements obviate the need for picking up a good Linux book at some point, and/or keeping a Linux veteran/sensei near at hand at install time? No. Nor will next year's versions. That's just the way it is. The analogy to auto mechanics has been made, but how many of us actually taught ourselves how to drive the car in the first place? And despite the manufacturer's best efforts at making cars as easy to control as possible, this won't change soon either. Nor should it. The problem seems to me to be that while we all see the value in getting some outside assistance/advice with things like learning how to drive, or to fill out tax returns, or to perform any other routine task whose initial complexity and learning curve are well known, many people seem to approach installing and using Linux for the first time as if their vast, hard-won experience in the use of (Windows/Macs/Playstations/Garage Door Openers) has utterly prepared them for all they could encounter. And, sooner or later, this blind faith is found to be insufficient. As Ben Scott pointed out in a recent post, *NIX is by design a different approach to computing as well as an o/s, and those of us who sing its praises to all who will listen - and in that department, just call me Johnny Kernelseed :) - must not fail to make clear that it will require some measure of effort at the outset, and to explain what human and printed resources are available ... and *strongly* encourage their use. Of those who come to Linux from a commercial GUI o/s, most have installed and uninstalled many programs, and often a device or three along the way, in the other o/s; with this they are already comfortable. They fancy the transition to doing all the same things in Linux as being merely an exotic little challenge on the order of renting a car in England and driving on the left for a while. Well, it ain't, that's for sure. Now if you went over there and rented a Gulfstream, on the other hand ... :) While distros such as Mandrake are to be lauded for their efforts at lowering the bar for the novice, it is incumbent upon us to explain why the bar's height is necessary, and to be there to give the needed leg up. As Bill Sconce pointed out, we need more Elmers. Newbies can call me if they want; I'll toss around ideas with anyone, or walk them through an install or whatever ... but I won't make it sound easy. It isn't. But it's doable, and it can become easier. It's just more different than they expected - because it's better. :) -- Bill Mullen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Feb 12, 2002 * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
