[LUTE] Re: Pittoni's theorbo?
Chris, I'll wont go on after this but will just repeat that the only historical evidence (from me- see earlier) on reentrant theorbo sizes in A or G is for large instruments. If you have anything like the Praetorius, Mace, Picinni, Talbot evidence on large theorbos but clearly relating to smalI instruments in this tuning, I'd like to see it please. MH [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Martyn, Argh - I get it, you don't agree with my and others' take on the matter. However, I must point out (as others have ad nauseum) that your arguement relies quite heavily on speculation and selective disregard of aspects of the historical record. What I don't like so much is the tone that there is only one right way. Countering your assertion that the old ones were very clear about the instrument, Praetorius, when talking specifically about the theorbo, had this to say: Since constant changes take place in these various matters, nothing very definite may be stated about them here. Chris --- Martyn Hodgson wrote: Oh dear - not again. This is,of course, very speculative and the weight of evidence is against a high octave on the second course (mainly because it'd break on anything approaching a decent sized continuo theorbo). As explained ad nauseum elsewhere, the 'Old ones'clearly explain that the reason for the theorbo was greater 'power'; the ability to play close seconds and 65 chords very easily is somewhat outweighed by the limited range of the instrument. Hence the rise of the archlute later in the 17th century. MH [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Monica, --- Monica Hall wrote: Well - like baroque guitarists - perhaps theorbo-players were willing to tollerate the displaced notes in order to enjoy all the other benefits which re-entrant tunings conferred upon them! I doubt it. Many of the benefits of re-entrant tuning I mentioned in the last post were useful in making proper voice leading more feasible without having to go a lot of awkward technical trouble. Frequent displaced octaves do not fall into the catagory of proper voice leading. You can't have your cake and eat it. Quite right. The theorbo with double re-entrant tuning sacrificed its upper tonal range in exchange for having more adjacent notes under the fingers. But Pittoni and Melli seem to have wanted at least a taste of that cake and so added the high octave to their second course so as to fake having more notes. Chris Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html - Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox. -- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping - Sent from Yahoo! #45; a smarter inbox. --
[LUTE] Re: Pittoni's theorbo?
(Sorry David for sending this to your private mailbox. I don't master yet all the subtleties of replying to the list when I get messages from such or such person ) Thanks David. That's a clear statement, full of good sense and and I totally concur. My not so small theorbo, which I use for continuo, is 80 cm on the fingerboard and I have not particularly small hands, being more than 6 ft tall, but I must confess I have already quite a handful of it... My smaller theorbo, which I occasionally use for continuo too :) is 73 cm, and that would almost make a tiorbino of it if I understand well... ;-) ! Best, Jean-Marie Martyn wrote: If you have anything like the Praetorius, Mace, Picinni, Talbot evidence on large theorbos but clearly relating to smalI instruments in this tuning, I'd like to see it please. So far we have seen evidence of reentrant tuning for large theorbos, thank you for the references. And we have solo music requiring reentrant tuning and strongly suggesting a-tuning (Kapsberger). However, we have not seen evidence stating small theorbos could not be tuned reentrant. Your opinion on the matter is clear, but your arguments are not. I hate to be taking sides in an argument that could, and should, bring us all to a better understanding of the historical record and, especially interesting for me, its consequences for our own playing today, but as it stands now I think the burden of proof is on your side: what are the arguments to deny the possibility of tuning a small theorbo reentrant in a? Saying, as I understand you to do, that the fact that large theorbos were tuned reentrant is proof small theorbos were not tuned reentrant, does not make sense. I agree with you that bigger is better for much of theorbo continuo practice. I agree with you that many of us, myself included, have a 'toy' theorbos (76cm here!) not ideally suited for some of the continuo repertoire (Montevredi las weekend!) we play on it nonetheless. I agree with you that covering up the defects of a small theorbo by using overspun basses on 6 (and lower if present at the fingerboard) is a modern solution. But I see no evidence denying the historical possibility of tuning a small theorbo reentrant in a. On the contrary, some would argue that the solo music (in a) would require a small theorbo as it would require rather very large hands to be played on one of the very large continuo theorbos. respectfully David David van Ooijen [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.davidvanooijen.nl To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --- Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus mail. Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://poirierjm.free.fr 08-02-2008 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Jean-Marie Poirier [EMAIL PROTECTED] 08-02-2008
[LUTE] Re: Pittoni's theorbo?
Martyn wrote: If you have anything like the Praetorius, Mace, Picinni, Talbot evidence on large theorbos but clearly relating to smalI instruments in this tuning, I'd like to see it please. So far we have seen evidence of reentrant tuning for large theorbos, thank you for the references. And we have solo music requiring reentrant tuning and strongly suggesting a-tuning (Kapsberger). However, we have not seen evidence stating small theorbos could not be tuned reentrant. Your opinion on the matter is clear, but your arguments are not. I hate to be taking sides in an argument that could, and should, bring us all to a better understanding of the historical record and, especially interesting for me, its consequences for our own playing today, but as it stands now I think the burden of proof is on your side: what are the arguments to deny the possibility of tuning a small theorbo reentrant in a? Saying, as I understand you to do, that the fact that large theorbos were tuned reentrant is proof small theorbos were not tuned reentrant, does not make sense. I agree with you that bigger is better for much of theorbo continuo practice. I agree with you that many of us, myself included, have a 'toy' theorbos (76cm here!) not ideally suited for some of the continuo repertoire (Montevredi las weekend!) we play on it nonetheless. I agree with you that covering up the defects of a small theorbo by using overspun basses on 6 (and lower if present at the fingerboard) is a modern solution. But I see no evidence denying the historical possibility of tuning a small theorbo reentrant in a. On the contrary, some would argue that the solo music (in a) would require a small theorbo as it would require rather very large hands to be played on one of the very large continuo theorbos. respectfully David David van Ooijen [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.davidvanooijen.nl To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota - another thought
God question, Anthony. In absence of any evidence anywhere of making thumb picks for lutes,, I would highly doubt that this was done. ed At 08:46 AM 2/8/2008 +0100, Anthony Hind wrote: Ed I am still surprised that the long nails succeeded in marking through the strings. Does anyone know of guitare players leaving similar marks? Do you not think that the luthist might have invented some sort of extentions to his fingers? These things could be made by anyone. Look at these http://www.strum-n-comfort.com/sharktoothpickproducts.html They don't look beyond the skills of a late Baroque player to construct. Whether they did or not, is another question. Anthony Le 8 févr. 08 à 00:26, Edward Martin a écrit : No trouble at all, Martyn. Yes, the marks clearly indicate that it was played as a 13 course lute, as I have been saying. It shows a hundred or so thumb nail marks near the rose, and the corresponding marks from finger playing while in this position. Also, if one were strumming with a plectrum, the marks would be mostly vertical, but these marks clearly, from the 5th or 6th course, down to the 13th, are somewhat circular, as if one held his/her hand in 1 position, and moved the thumb up or down to various courses, accordingly. So, in courses 8 9, the marks are closer to the rose, but marks around the 6th or 13th are clearly closer back, showing an arc pattern with the thumb. It fits perfectly. The marks are from a hand position, as they match perfectly, and not from a strumming plectrum. Your ideas are excellent, and I would have also asked the same questions, but all in all, the marks match what a baroque lutenist would have done, with his thumb sticking out to towards the neck, and playing the bass courses while keeping the hand in position. It is amazing. The instruments are clearly baroque lutes, not anything similar to the pictures you showed. Also, they were kept in the attic for a very long time. The wear marks clearly coincide with at least 2 different baroque lute players on the smaller of the 2 lutes. The larger lute shows a musician playing close to the bridge. ed At 02:55 PM 2/7/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Thank you. Sorry to press you a wee bit but do you think it was played in its 13 course form because of the pattern of the marks? ie do they dissapear or become significantly fainter under where the 1st to 13th courses would run? Even if so, its last played state and that causing the marks might still have been from using it as a guitar, but one with extended basses. You'll know that from the mid 19th century extended bass guitars became relatively popular with 10 courses being common (Mertz, Coste, Padovetz, Dubez, Bayer et al) and later towards the end of the century more courses were added. I recall of picture of Heinrich Albert and his chums playing a rum collection of such guitars. Various websites eg http://www.harpguitars.netwww.harpguitars.net has many pictures. MH Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Once again, I doubt it very much. The marks are clearly made from playing a 13 course lute. And, it is documented that the instruments were in the castle attic for a very long time. ed At 08:46 AM 2/7/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Thanks for this. Well if not 'Wandervogel' as such (tho' I read the movement started in the last decade of the 19thC - well before 1907), perhaps guitar like strung nevertheless? MH Edward Martin wrote: Good idea, but no, absolutely unlikely. They were documented to be in storage, and were removed for observation in 1907, when a Heckel looked at them, and put back into storage in the castle.. ed .At 01:57 PM 2/6/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Thank you for this. Just a thought, but the marks on the belly over and above the rose sound a bit like the sort of marks left by a strumming guitarist. Could it have been used as a 'Wandervogel' lute/guitar in the early20th century? I realise it's got many more than 6 courses but I presume they might not have felt the need to string them all if it was just, say, a son of the house having a strum on the old lute he found in the attic.. MH Edward Martin wrote: Dear ones, I have an interesting story. Dan Larson and I just returned from the National Museum of Music, in South Dakota. It was an absolutely fantastic experience. They have many, many lutes by Harton, Diefenbrouchar, Sellas, Edlinger. They also have guitars by Stradivarius, Sellas and Voboam. Many violins by Stradivarius, Ganeri, Amati, etc. It was unbelievable. The museum let us have full access to the Edlingers! We examined them for about 10 hours, and I got to hold them in the playing position, etc. They have been examined in the 1970's by Lundberg and others. One is 76 cm mensur, the other is 81 or 82 cm, and they were perhaps originally by Tieffenbrucker, or perhaps a Bolognese maker. Later, they were converted to 13 course baroque lutes by Thomas Edlinger; the longer
[LUTE] Re: Pittoni's theorbo?
Dear Jean-Marie, There's quite a history to this discussion, both recently and some months ago and you may care to look in the archives for the long and, I'm afraid, rather tedious and repetitive thread. Basically the historical case (evidence for your 'burden of proof') for saying that small theorbos were not generally tuned double reentrant is that the few early writers who mention such stringing details at all (principally Piccinini, Mace), say that on the theorbo the string length and pitch is such that the top course is obliged to be tuned down an octave if it is not to break (ie what we now call single reentrant) and further say that if the instrument is large one is even obliged to tune the second an octave down. In short, if you can you should just detune the first course and only detune the next if the second string is likely to break. For some reason this tuning seems unattractive to many modern players: perhaps it's because some like to think they are playing a large theorbo of the type played by early professional continuo musicians but are put off by the actual size. I have no argument with this position whatsoever and if the case is made for such stringing is on the basis on modern convenience (and using modern overwound strings) rather than historical usage then that's fine. The problem arises when it's suggested that double reentrant tuning was normally used on small theorbos earlier: I ask for any evidence but none is ever forthcoming! Perhaps this unwillingness to confront the evidence is because most amateur theorbo players are principally lutenists and don't wish to stray too far from the sort of size to which they've become accustomed. regards Martyn PS If it's of any succour, it may be that some early amateurs might possibly have played small theorbos in A or G as double reentrant (altho no evidence has been presented) but I presume we are speaking about 'best practice' here. Jean-Marie Poirier [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (Sorry David for sending this to your private mailbox. I don't master yet all the subtleties of replying to the list when I get messages from such or such person ) Thanks David. That's a clear statement, full of good sense and and I totally concur. My not so small theorbo, which I use for continuo, is 80 cm on the fingerboard and I have not particularly small hands, being more than 6 ft tall, but I must confess I have already quite a handful of it... My smaller theorbo, which I occasionally use for continuo too :) is 73 cm, and that would almost make a tiorbino of it if I understand well... ;-) ! Best, Jean-Marie Martyn wrote: If you have anything like the Praetorius, Mace, Picinni, Talbot evidence on large theorbos but clearly relating to smalI instruments in this tuning, I'd like to see it please. So far we have seen evidence of reentrant tuning for large theorbos, thank you for the references. And we have solo music requiring reentrant tuning and strongly suggesting a-tuning (Kapsberger). However, we have not seen evidence stating small theorbos could not be tuned reentrant. Your opinion on the matter is clear, but your arguments are not. I hate to be taking sides in an argument that could, and should, bring us all to a better understanding of the historical record and, especially interesting for me, its consequences for our own playing today, but as it stands now I think the burden of proof is on your side: what are the arguments to deny the possibility of tuning a small theorbo reentrant in a? Saying, as I understand you to do, that the fact that large theorbos were tuned reentrant is proof small theorbos were not tuned reentrant, does not make sense. I agree with you that bigger is better for much of theorbo continuo practice. I agree with you that many of us, myself included, have a 'toy' theorbos (76cm here!) not ideally suited for some of the continuo repertoire (Montevredi las weekend!) we play on it nonetheless. I agree with you that covering up the defects of a small theorbo by using overspun basses on 6 (and lower if present at the fingerboard) is a modern solution. But I see no evidence denying the historical possibility of tuning a small theorbo reentrant in a. On the contrary, some would argue that the solo music (in a) would require a small theorbo as it would require rather very large hands to be played on one of the very large continuo theorbos. respectfully David David van Ooijen [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.davidvanooijen.nl To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --- Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus mail. Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota - another thought
Dalla Casa, mid 18thC seems to use something like this MH Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jaroslaw Well that could be the explanation then, medium length nails, and perhaps the string length meant the use of quite low tesnion strings. Although Rob does say that somewhere on Van Edwards site there is mention (or a painting) of a thumb or finger attachment for playing theorbo. I couldn't find any detail about that, but I was not sure where to look. If this was specific to theorbo, it could give an indication of the therobo type tuning some have suggested for these long string length lutes, but it's a very long shot, I fear. Does this mean that this instrument could have been tuned in the theorbo tuning mentioned by Baron? Are Vidar Boye Hansen Anthony Le 8 févr. 08 à 14:02, JarosÅaw Lipski a écrit : Anthony, Many years ago when I was at the stage of transformation from guitar to lute playing I tried playing my lute with normal (medium length) finger nails (influenced by Picinnini's remarks). The result showed up very quickly - the fingerboard was covered with small marks in the place where I used to keep my right hand. I was very surprised because I was trying not to touch the wood with my fingernails while playing, but apparently the soft wood of the fingerboard not covered with any guitar-like hard varnish, the low tension and rather low string action in the place where the right hand is normally kept, made it possible to scratch my instrument in a very short period of time. The marks appeared mainly in the places where fingers i, m, a played but not under the thumb. This however could be due to the shape of the thumb nail and the fact that I stopped experiment after short playing time ;-) Best wishes Jaroslaw -Original Message- From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 8:46 AM To: Edward Martin; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Martyn Hodgson Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota - another thought Ed I am still surprised that the long nails succeeded in marking through the strings. Does anyone know of guitare players leaving similar marks? Do you not think that the luthist might have invented some sort of extentions to his fingers? These things could be made by anyone. Look at these http://www.strum-n-comfort.com/ sharktoothpickproducts.html They don't look beyond the skills of a late Baroque player to construct. Whether they did or not, is another question. Anthony Le 8 févr. 08 à 00:26, Edward Martin a écrit : No trouble at all, Martyn. Yes, the marks clearly indicate that it was played as a 13 course lute, as I have been saying. It shows a hundred or so thumb nail marks near the rose, and the corresponding marks from finger playing while in this position. Also, if one were strumming with a plectrum, the marks would be mostly vertical, but these marks clearly, from the 5th or 6th course, down to the 13th, are somewhat circular, as if one held his/her hand in 1 position, and moved the thumb up or down to various courses, accordingly. So, in courses 8 9, the marks are closer to the rose, but marks around the 6th or 13th are clearly closer back, showing an arc pattern with the thumb. It fits perfectly. The marks are from a hand position, as they match perfectly, and not from a strumming plectrum. Your ideas are excellent, and I would have also asked the same questions, but all in all, the marks match what a baroque lutenist would have done, with his thumb sticking out to towards the neck, and playing the bass courses while keeping the hand in position. It is amazing. The instruments are clearly baroque lutes, not anything similar to the pictures you showed. Also, they were kept in the attic for a very long time. The wear marks clearly coincide with at least 2 different baroque lute players on the smaller of the 2 lutes. The larger lute shows a musician playing close to the bridge. ed At 02:55 PM 2/7/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Thank you. Sorry to press you a wee bit but do you think it was played in its 13 course form because of the pattern of the marks? ie do they dissapear or become significantly fainter under where the 1st to 13th courses would run? Even if so, its last played state and that causing the marks might still have been from using it as a guitar, but one with extended basses. You'll know that from the mid 19th century extended bass guitars became relatively popular with 10 courses being common (Mertz, Coste, Padovetz, Dubez, Bayer et al) and later towards the end of the century more courses were added. I recall of picture of Heinrich Albert and his chums playing a rum collection of such guitars. Various websites eg www.harpguitars.net has many pictures. MH Edward Martin wrote: Once again, I doubt it very much. The marks are clearly made from playing a 13 course lute. And, it is
[LUTE] Re: Pittoni's theorbo?
Thanks Ron. I think I've got everything under control now ;-) Best, Jean-Marie (F) Expéditeur original:Ron Fletcher Adresse expéditeur original: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Jean-Marie, 1) To make a private reply to an individual, click 'Reply'. It is important to check that their e-mail address is a private one and not an individual in a newsgroup (like Yahoo-users, Fronimo-users etc). It is very likely that your private message will then become public by being sent to everyone in the newsgroup. Do not Cc to the lute-list on this message! 2) To reply openly to the lute-list, click 'Forward'. Remove the sender's e-mail address from the 'To' box. Insert the lute-list address from your address-book, (exactly as you would in sending to any individual). The individual on this list will receive your public message and not two copies! Never use the 'Reply to all' button. It is a dangerous practice. This is like step 2, - only quicker! Choose only 'Reply', or 'Forward'. This is much safer and simple to remember. Also, I edit messages before I Send them, (as I have done here). I delete the unnecessary text and replies from previous senders which have all been read before and, of no further use. They only add to the size of the e-mail. I hope this helps Ron (UK) Jean-Marie Poirier [EMAIL PROTECTED] 08-02-2008 N ¶è®ß¶¬+-±ç¥Ëbú+«b¢vÛiÿü0ÁË j»f¢ëayÛ¿Á·?ë^iÙ¢ø§uìa¶i
[LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota - another thought
Dear All Thanks to David Van Edwards, I think I found the picture mentioned by Rob. http://www.mail-archive.com/lute@cs.dartmouth.edu/msg20273.html I am not sure of the significance for our question here. Although if these are artificial nails, it would not be impossible, that something similar made the marks on the Edlinger. However, Jaroslaw, has told us that even (medium length) finger nails (influenced by Picinnini's remarks, can make such an effect. Original http://www.library.appstate.edu/music/guitar/pellegrini1.jpg Detail http://www.voicesofmusic.org/pellegrini.html This appears to be the detailed image, that comes from David Tayler [LUTE] Re: ughpellergini again #3 David Tayler Tue, 24 Jul 2007 11:05:34 -0700 I've posted a detail here, it is surprising from the angle of the light that the first fingernail would be black, but that may be possible. http://www.voicesofmusic.org/pellegrini.html There are heavy shadows on all the elements, so the finger would have to have a shadow, as do the other fingers. No nail on the thumb though, perhaps the better scan will reveal all. Very interesting picture, thanks to Rich for showing it. http://www.voicesofmusic.org/pellegrini.html Tue, 24 Jul 2007 02:27:18 -0700 That is an interesting picture. No nails on the thumb and first finger, but nails on the other ones. The dark spot under first finger is the shadow, in contrast to the light nails. May have trimmed the thumb first finger and played with two fingers, as I do, but those other fingers look pretty serious. A strong argument for a two fingered, chordal technique without nails, or a three fingered technique with the nails, but you can't use your thumb and first finger. Knowing nothing, I vote for the former. dt btw, if you take out the junk DNA the link looks http://www.library.appstate.edu/music/guitar/pellegrini1.jpg Anthony Le 8 fevr. 08 =E0 17:28, David Van Edwards a ecrit : Dear All, About a year ago there was some discussion of an engraving of an early guitarist/composer which seemed to show he had a nail on at least one finger. I put up the picture and said that I thought I could see indications of another nail and surmised that both from their appearance.might have been artificial. At the time I had a passing interest and was trying to help the discussion. I seem to have taken down the picture, at least I can't find it either, and have also deleted it from my computer and the details from my memory! This was because it was a guitarist not a theorbo player and, narrow-mindedly(!) I'm not very concerned with guitar matters. So I'm sorry not to be able to help further, I suggest looking in the archive of the lute net. Best wishes, David At 17:01 +0100 8/2/08, Anthony Hind wrote: Jaroslaw Well that could be the explanation then, medium length nails, and perhaps the string length meant the use of quite low tesnion strings. Although Rob does say that somewhere on Van Edwards site there is mention (or a painting) of a thumb or finger attachment for playing theorbo. I couldn't find any detail about that, but I was not sure where to look. If this was specific to theorbo, it could give an indication of the therobo type tuning some have suggested for these long string length lutes, but it's a very long shot, I fear. Does this mean that this instrument could have been tuned in the theorbo tuning mentioned by Baron? Are Vidar Boye Hansen Anthony Le 8 fevr. 08 =E0 14:02, Jaros1/2aw Lipski a ecrit : Anthony, Many years ago when I was at the stage of transformation from guitar to lute playing I tried playing my lute with normal (medium length) finger nails (influenced by Picinnini's remarks). The result showed up very quickly - the fingerboard was covered with small marks in the place where I used to keep my right hand. I was very surprised because I was trying not to touch the wood with my fingernails while playing, but apparently the soft wood of the fingerboard not covered with any guitar-like hard varnish, the low tension and rather low string action in the place where the right hand is normally kept, made it possible to scratch my instrument in a very short period of time. The marks appeared mainly in the places where fingers i, m, a played but not under the thumb. This however could be due to the shape of the thumb nail and the fact that I stopped experiment after short playing time ;-) Best wishes Jaroslaw -Original Message- From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 8:46 AM To: Edward Martin; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Martyn Hodgson Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota - another thought Ed I am still surprised that the long nails succeeded in marking through the strings. Does anyone know of guitare players leaving similar marks? Do you not think that
[LUTE] Re: Pittoni's theorbo?
David, As promised - here it is again! Incidentally, if you look at the earlier messages you'll see that I do, of course, agree that solo music may well have sometimes/often(?) been played on small double reentrant theorbos. My focus however has been principally on the instruments used for continuo play and, in particular, on 'best practice'. rgds MH Martyn Hodgson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 16:47:12 + (GMT) From: Martyn Hodgson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Pittoni's theorbo? To: Jean-Marie Poirier [EMAIL PROTECTED], lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Dear Jean-Marie, There's quite a history to this discussion, both recently and some months ago and you may care to look in the archives for the long and, I'm afraid, rather tedious and repetitive thread. Basically the historical case (evidence for your 'burden of proof') for saying that small theorbos were not generally tuned double reentrant is that the few early writers who mention such stringing details at all (principally Piccinini, Mace), say that on the theorbo the string length and pitch is such that the top course is obliged to be tuned down an octave if it is not to break (ie what we now call single reentrant) and further say that if the instrument is large one is even obliged to tune the second an octave down. In short, if you can you should just detune the first course and only detune the next if the second string is likely to break. For some reason this tuning seems unattractive to many modern players: perhaps it's because some like to think they are playing a large theorbo of the type played by early professional continuo musicians but are put off by the actual size. I have no argument with this position whatsoever and if the case is made for such stringing is on the basis on modern convenience (and using modern overwound strings) rather than historical usage then that's fine. The problem arises when it's suggested that double reentrant tuning was normally used on small theorbos earlier: I ask for any evidence but none is ever forthcoming! Perhaps this unwillingness to confront the evidence is because most amateur theorbo players are principally lutenists and don't wish to stray too far from the sort of size to which they've become accustomed. regards Martyn PS If it's of any succour, it may be that some early amateurs might possibly have played small theorbos in A or G as double reentrant (altho no evidence has been presented) but I presume we are speaking about 'best practice' here. Jean-Marie Poirier [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (Sorry David for sending this to your private mailbox. I don't master yet all the subtleties of replying to the list when I get messages from such or such person ) Thanks David. That's a clear statement, full of good sense and and I totally concur. My not so small theorbo, which I use for continuo, is 80 cm on the fingerboard and I have not particularly small hands, being more than 6 ft tall, but I must confess I have already quite a handful of it... My smaller theorbo, which I occasionally use for continuo too :) is 73 cm, and that would almost make a tiorbino of it if I understand well... ;-) ! Best, Jean-Marie Martyn wrote: If you have anything like the Praetorius, Mace, Picinni, Talbot evidence on large theorbos but clearly relating to smalI instruments in this tuning, I'd like to see it please. So far we have seen evidence of reentrant tuning for large theorbos, thank you for the references. And we have solo music requiring reentrant tuning and strongly suggesting a-tuning (Kapsberger). However, we have not seen evidence stating small theorbos could not be tuned reentrant. Your opinion on the matter is clear, but your arguments are not. I hate to be taking sides in an argument that could, and should, bring us all to a better understanding of the historical record and, especially interesting for me, its consequences for our own playing today, but as it stands now I think the burden of proof is on your side: what are the arguments to deny the possibility of tuning a small theorbo reentrant in a? Saying, as I understand you to do, that the fact that large theorbos were tuned reentrant is proof small theorbos were not tuned reentrant, does not make sense. I agree with you that bigger is better for much of theorbo continuo practice. I agree with you that many of us, myself included, have a 'toy' theorbos (76cm here!) not ideally suited for some of the continuo repertoire (Montevredi las weekend!) we play on it nonetheless. I agree with you that covering up the defects of a small theorbo by using overspun basses on 6 (and lower if present at the fingerboard) is a modern solution. But I see no evidence denying the historical possibility of tuning a small theorbo reentrant in a. On the contrary, some would argue that the solo music (in a) would require a
[LUTE] Re: Pittoni's theorbo?
David, I'm afraid I thought Jean-Marie was the author of this email so I replied to him! It will come to the main list but I will also forward it to you - I hope it is helpful, especially on single reentrant being the usual for small theorbos if you can get away with it (ie the second wont break). rgds MH LGS-Europe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Martyn wrote: If you have anything like the Praetorius, Mace, Picinni, Talbot evidence on large theorbos but clearly relating to smalI instruments in this tuning, I'd like to see it please. So far we have seen evidence of reentrant tuning for large theorbos, thank you for the references. And we have solo music requiring reentrant tuning and strongly suggesting a-tuning (Kapsberger). However, we have not seen evidence stating small theorbos could not be tuned reentrant. Your opinion on the matter is clear, but your arguments are not. I hate to be taking sides in an argument that could, and should, bring us all to a better understanding of the historical record and, especially interesting for me, its consequences for our own playing today, but as it stands now I think the burden of proof is on your side: what are the arguments to deny the possibility of tuning a small theorbo reentrant in a? Saying, as I understand you to do, that the fact that large theorbos were tuned reentrant is proof small theorbos were not tuned reentrant, does not make sense. I agree with you that bigger is better for much of theorbo continuo practice. I agree with you that many of us, myself included, have a 'toy' theorbos (76cm here!) not ideally suited for some of the continuo repertoire (Montevredi las weekend!) we play on it nonetheless. I agree with you that covering up the defects of a small theorbo by using overspun basses on 6 (and lower if present at the fingerboard) is a modern solution. But I see no evidence denying the historical possibility of tuning a small theorbo reentrant in a. On the contrary, some would argue that the solo music (in a) would require a small theorbo as it would require rather very large hands to be played on one of the very large continuo theorbos. respectfully David David van Ooijen [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.davidvanooijen.nl To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html - Support the World Aids Awareness campaign this month with Yahoo! for Good --
[LUTE] Re: Pittoni's theorbo?
Thank you very much Martyn for these precisions. Actually, I think I am going to experiment with my smaller theorbo with a single reentrant first string. I will play continuo in some Locke music soon. It could be a good opportunity to try that ! Best, Jean-Marie Expéditeur original:Martyn Hodgson Adresse expéditeur original: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dear Jean-Marie, There's quite a history to this discussion, both recently and some months ago and you may care to look in the archives for the long and, I'm afraid, rather tedious and repetitive thread. Basically the historical case (evidence for your 'burden of proof') for saying that small theorbos were not generally tuned double reentrant is that the few early writers who mention such stringing details at all (principally Piccinini, Mace), say that on the theorbo the string length and pitch is such that the top course is obliged to be tuned down an octave if it is not to break (ie what we now call single reentrant) and further say that if the instrument is large one is even obliged to tune the second an octave down. In short, if you can you should just detune the first course and only detune the next if the second string is likely to break. For some reason this tuning seems unattractive to many modern players: perhaps it's because some like to think they are playing a large theorbo of the type played by early professional continuo musicians but are put off by the actual size. I have no argument with this position whatsoever and if the case is made for such stringing is on the basis on modern convenience (and using modern overwound strings) rather than historical usage then that's fine. The problem arises when it's suggested that double reentrant tuning was normally used on small theorbos earlier: I ask for any evidence but none is ever forthcoming! Perhaps this unwillingness to confront the evidence is because most amateur theorbo players are principally lutenists and don't wish to stray too far from the sort of size to which they've become accustomed. regards Martyn PS If it's of any succour, it may be that some early amateurs might possibly have played small theorbos in A or G as double reentrant (altho no evidence has been presented) but I presume we are speaking about 'best practice' here. Jean-Marie Poirier [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://tresororphee.free.fr 08-02-2008 N ¶è®ß¶¬+-±ç¥Ëbú+«b¢vÛiÿü0ÁË j»f¢ëayÛ¿Á·?ë^iÙ¢ø§uìa¶i
[LUTE] Re: Pittoni's theorbo?
From: Martyn Hodgson [EMAIL PROTECTED] In short, if you can you should just detune the first course and only detune the next if the second string is likely to break. So why making a double reentrant tuning on a tiorbino? Diego To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Ronn McFarlane's INDIGO ROAD now available on iTunes
Hello Friends, Just to let you know that Ronn's newest release INDIGO ROAD is available for download from iTunes as well as many other digital platforms. Please direct your tech-savvy friends there to find this recording! cheers Suzanne Konefal Director of Marketing and Business Development Dorian Recordings / Sono Luminus 540-592-3677 www.dorian.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: piece of the month revived
Dear David, Thanks - that's a very perceptive comment which I have taken to heart, despite the fact that the majority opinion seems to be in favour of reverb. Perhaps we are so used to hearing commercial CDs with compression, added reverb, etc, that we expect everything to sound like that. The more I listen to the uncontaminated version, the more I think I prefer it, but it does suffer from the fact that the microphones are only .5m away and as you say, that affects one's style of playing. I'm afraid I've just joined the club of which you are already a member (endless experimenters). By the way, Martin Eastwell is also a member of this club - I wonder what he thinks? Best wishes, Martin LGS-Europe wrote: Martin I liked the ones without reverb, by far. The reverb sounds like you're in a big room but play behind a screen: all muffled and shy, not at all like the room acoustics would invite you to play! Just my two eurocents (which many shops already don't accept anymore, anyway). David David van Ooijen [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.davidvanooijen.nl - Original Message - From: Martin Shepherd [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 1:08 PM Subject: [LUTE] piece of the month revived Dear All, I have revived the Piece of the Month feature on my site. It now includes MP3 files. No reverb added this time - compare them with the files on my recordings page and let me know which you prefer: www.luteshop.co.uk/month/pieceofthemonth.htm www.luteshop.co.uk/recordings.html Best wishes, Martin To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: piece of the month revived
Martin I liked the ones without reverb, by far. The reverb sounds like you're in a big room but play behind a screen: all muffled and shy, not at all like the room acoustics would invite you to play! Just my two eurocents (which many shops already don't accept anymore, anyway). David David van Ooijen [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.davidvanooijen.nl - Original Message - From: Martin Shepherd [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 1:08 PM Subject: [LUTE] piece of the month revived Dear All, I have revived the Piece of the Month feature on my site. It now includes MP3 files. No reverb added this time - compare them with the files on my recordings page and let me know which you prefer: www.luteshop.co.uk/month/pieceofthemonth.htm www.luteshop.co.uk/recordings.html Best wishes, Martin To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] piece of the month revived
Dear All, I have revived the Piece of the Month feature on my site. It now includes MP3 files. No reverb added this time - compare them with the files on my recordings page and let me know which you prefer: www.luteshop.co.uk/month/pieceofthemonth.htm www.luteshop.co.uk/recordings.html Best wishes, Martin To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: piece of the month revived
Is it possible that the Spanish Pavan actually is a spanish vihuela piece? Are Dear All, I have revived the Piece of the Month feature on my site. It now includes MP3 files. No reverb added this time - compare them with the files on my recordings page and let me know which you prefer: www.luteshop.co.uk/month/pieceofthemonth.htm www.luteshop.co.uk/recordings.html Best wishes, Martin To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota - another thought
Anthony, From the detail David send us(the big close up) I could say Pellegrini had very long nails on all fingers. They don't look like artificial ones unless they had Superglue at that time (which is rather improbable :-)) This could explain scratches in a simplest possible way. Have you encountered any mention of the artificial finger nails in any literature from XVII or XVIII c? On the other hand it was not impossible to make such a gadget at that time and can not be out ruled. I tried to play single strung theorbo in the big orchestra with short nails and it seems to work because nobody can hear it's tone color anyway but the projection is definitely better - some similarity to harpsichord. The old ones must have noticed this correlation since some mention those that use finger nails, however in the smaller ensemble this technique doesn't seem to work so well. Besides it's much more money consuming because you have to change guts more frequently (nails spoil gut no matter how polished). Anyway I abandoned this technique for ever because for me it's just better to play the proper size theorbo, but the old ones were evidently seeking the new ways of coping with the same problems that we encounter, thus the evidence of using finger nails. So, to sum up my guess is Edlinger was scratched by somebody playing with his natural finger nails. It would be interesting to find out when it had took place in past, but probably such an investigation would be very difficult and expensive. Jaroslaw -Original Message- From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 6:21 PM To: David Van Edwards; David Tayler; LGS-Europe; Edward Martin; Jarosław Lipski Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Net Subject: [LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota - another thought Dear All Thanks to David Van Edwards, I think I found the picture mentioned by Rob. http://www.mail-archive.com/lute@cs.dartmouth.edu/msg20273.html I am not sure of the significance for our question here. Although if these are artificial nails, it would not be impossible, that something similar made the marks on the Edlinger. However, Jaroslaw, has told us that even (medium length) finger nails (influenced by Picinnini's remarks, can make such an effect. Original http://www.library.appstate.edu/music/guitar/pellegrini1.jpg Detail http://www.voicesofmusic.org/pellegrini.html This appears to be the detailed image, that comes from David Tayler [LUTE] Re: ughpellergini again #3 David Tayler Tue, 24 Jul 2007 11:05:34 -0700 I've posted a detail here, it is surprising from the angle of the light that the first fingernail would be black, but that may be possible. http://www.voicesofmusic.org/pellegrini.html There are heavy shadows on all the elements, so the finger would have to have a shadow, as do the other fingers. No nail on the thumb though, perhaps the better scan will reveal all. Very interesting picture, thanks to Rich for showing it. http://www.voicesofmusic.org/pellegrini.html Tue, 24 Jul 2007 02:27:18 -0700 That is an interesting picture. No nails on the thumb and first finger, but nails on the other ones. The dark spot under first finger is the shadow, in contrast to the light nails. May have trimmed the thumb first finger and played with two fingers, as I do, but those other fingers look pretty serious. A strong argument for a two fingered, chordal technique without nails, or a three fingered technique with the nails, but you can't use your thumb and first finger. Knowing nothing, I vote for the former. dt btw, if you take out the junk DNA the link looks http://www.library.appstate.edu/music/guitar/pellegrini1.jpg Anthony Le 8 fevr. 08 =E0 17:28, David Van Edwards a ecrit : Dear All, About a year ago there was some discussion of an engraving of an early guitarist/composer which seemed to show he had a nail on at least one finger. I put up the picture and said that I thought I could see indications of another nail and surmised that both from their appearance.might have been artificial. At the time I had a passing interest and was trying to help the discussion. I seem to have taken down the picture, at least I can't find it either, and have also deleted it from my computer and the details from my memory! This was because it was a guitarist not a theorbo player and, narrow-mindedly(!) I'm not very concerned with guitar matters. So I'm sorry not to be able to help further, I suggest looking in the archive of the lute net. Best wishes, David At 17:01 +0100 8/2/08, Anthony Hind wrote: Jaroslaw Well that could be the explanation then, medium length nails, and perhaps the string length meant the use of quite low tesnion strings. Although Rob does say that somewhere on Van Edwards site there is mention (or a painting) of a thumb or finger attachment for playing theorbo. I couldn't find any detail about that, but I was not
[LUTE] Re: Tarantella - ground, melody or rhytm?
It has a melody as well as a ground and rhythm, and even lyrics in some sources. These do vary. There is quite a bit about it in Maurices Esses book Dance and instrumental diferencias in Spain during the 17th and early 18th centuries. Including one version of the tune. There must be Italian versions of it too. Monica - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 9:08 PM Subject: [LUTE] Tarantella - ground, melody or rhytm? Dear collective knowledge, as some may know, I happen to have kind of relation to some tarantula spiders, see my page (or don't if you happen to have araknofobia!) http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/Tarantula/ I would like to gather a collection of Tarantella dances to a web page. And especially such pieces that could be naturally played or accompanied by lute instruments - bar. and ren. guitars included. That means tabulated or continuo music - or songs - let us say before 19th century - there are lots of pieces and versions after 1800. But I would like to find mostly 18th, 17th and 16th century Tarantellas. Are there any from earlier years? Perhaps there are some readers, who do not know that Tarantella dancing was kind of medicine or remedy to persons, who were bitten by a spider. And as far as I know, in Italy it was a bite of Black Widow, just a tiny little spider compared to my tarantula spiders. ;-) And to my subject line: is there any consensus, whether Tarantella is a ground bass line, a melody, or a rhythm pattern? All the best, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota - another thought
Anthony, Many years ago when I was at the stage of transformation from guitar to lute playing I tried playing my lute with normal (medium length) finger nails (influenced by Picinnini's remarks). The result showed up very quickly - the fingerboard was covered with small marks in the place where I used to keep my right hand. I was very surprised because I was trying not to touch the wood with my fingernails while playing, but apparently the soft wood of the fingerboard not covered with any guitar-like hard varnish, the low tension and rather low string action in the place where the right hand is normally kept, made it possible to scratch my instrument in a very short period of time. The marks appeared mainly in the places where fingers i, m, a played but not under the thumb. This however could be due to the shape of the thumb nail and the fact that I stopped experiment after short playing time ;-) Best wishes Jaroslaw -Original Message- From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 8:46 AM To: Edward Martin; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Martyn Hodgson Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota - another thought Ed I am still surprised that the long nails succeeded in marking through the strings. Does anyone know of guitare players leaving similar marks? Do you not think that the luthist might have invented some sort of extentions to his fingers? These things could be made by anyone. Look at these http://www.strum-n-comfort.com/sharktoothpickproducts.html They don't look beyond the skills of a late Baroque player to construct. Whether they did or not, is another question. Anthony Le 8 févr. 08 à 00:26, Edward Martin a écrit : No trouble at all, Martyn. Yes, the marks clearly indicate that it was played as a 13 course lute, as I have been saying. It shows a hundred or so thumb nail marks near the rose, and the corresponding marks from finger playing while in this position. Also, if one were strumming with a plectrum, the marks would be mostly vertical, but these marks clearly, from the 5th or 6th course, down to the 13th, are somewhat circular, as if one held his/her hand in 1 position, and moved the thumb up or down to various courses, accordingly. So, in courses 8 9, the marks are closer to the rose, but marks around the 6th or 13th are clearly closer back, showing an arc pattern with the thumb. It fits perfectly. The marks are from a hand position, as they match perfectly, and not from a strumming plectrum. Your ideas are excellent, and I would have also asked the same questions, but all in all, the marks match what a baroque lutenist would have done, with his thumb sticking out to towards the neck, and playing the bass courses while keeping the hand in position. It is amazing. The instruments are clearly baroque lutes, not anything similar to the pictures you showed. Also, they were kept in the attic for a very long time. The wear marks clearly coincide with at least 2 different baroque lute players on the smaller of the 2 lutes. The larger lute shows a musician playing close to the bridge. ed At 02:55 PM 2/7/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Thank you. Sorry to press you a wee bit but do you think it was played in its 13 course form because of the pattern of the marks? ie do they dissapear or become significantly fainter under where the 1st to 13th courses would run? Even if so, its last played state and that causing the marks might still have been from using it as a guitar, but one with extended basses. You'll know that from the mid 19th century extended bass guitars became relatively popular with 10 courses being common (Mertz, Coste, Padovetz, Dubez, Bayer et al) and later towards the end of the century more courses were added. I recall of picture of Heinrich Albert and his chums playing a rum collection of such guitars. Various websites eg http://www.harpguitars.netwww.harpguitars.net has many pictures. MH Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Once again, I doubt it very much. The marks are clearly made from playing a 13 course lute. And, it is documented that the instruments were in the castle attic for a very long time. ed At 08:46 AM 2/7/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Thanks for this. Well if not 'Wandervogel' as such (tho' I read the movement started in the last decade of the 19thC - well before 1907), perhaps guitar like strung nevertheless? MH Edward Martin wrote: Good idea, but no, absolutely unlikely. They were documented to be in storage, and were removed for observation in 1907, when a Heckel looked at them, and put back into storage in the castle.. ed .At 01:57 PM 2/6/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Thank you for this. Just a thought, but the marks on the belly over and above the rose sound a bit like the sort of marks left by a strumming guitarist. Could
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota - another thought
Jaroslaw Well that could be the explanation then, medium length nails, and perhaps the string length meant the use of quite low tesnion strings. Although Rob does say that somewhere on Van Edwards site there is mention (or a painting) of a thumb or finger attachment for playing theorbo. I couldn't find any detail about that, but I was not sure where to look. If this was specific to theorbo, it could give an indication of the therobo type tuning some have suggested for these long string length lutes, but it's a very long shot, I fear. Does this mean that this instrument could have been tuned in the theorbo tuning mentioned by Baron? Are Vidar Boye Hansen Anthony Le 8 févr. 08 à 14:02, Jarosław Lipski a écrit : Anthony, Many years ago when I was at the stage of transformation from guitar to lute playing I tried playing my lute with normal (medium length) finger nails (influenced by Picinnini's remarks). The result showed up very quickly - the fingerboard was covered with small marks in the place where I used to keep my right hand. I was very surprised because I was trying not to touch the wood with my fingernails while playing, but apparently the soft wood of the fingerboard not covered with any guitar-like hard varnish, the low tension and rather low string action in the place where the right hand is normally kept, made it possible to scratch my instrument in a very short period of time. The marks appeared mainly in the places where fingers i, m, a played but not under the thumb. This however could be due to the shape of the thumb nail and the fact that I stopped experiment after short playing time ;-) Best wishes Jaroslaw -Original Message- From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 8:46 AM To: Edward Martin; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Martyn Hodgson Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota - another thought Ed I am still surprised that the long nails succeeded in marking through the strings. Does anyone know of guitare players leaving similar marks? Do you not think that the luthist might have invented some sort of extentions to his fingers? These things could be made by anyone. Look at these http://www.strum-n-comfort.com/ sharktoothpickproducts.html They don't look beyond the skills of a late Baroque player to construct. Whether they did or not, is another question. Anthony Le 8 févr. 08 à 00:26, Edward Martin a écrit : No trouble at all, Martyn. Yes, the marks clearly indicate that it was played as a 13 course lute, as I have been saying. It shows a hundred or so thumb nail marks near the rose, and the corresponding marks from finger playing while in this position. Also, if one were strumming with a plectrum, the marks would be mostly vertical, but these marks clearly, from the 5th or 6th course, down to the 13th, are somewhat circular, as if one held his/her hand in 1 position, and moved the thumb up or down to various courses, accordingly. So, in courses 8 9, the marks are closer to the rose, but marks around the 6th or 13th are clearly closer back, showing an arc pattern with the thumb. It fits perfectly. The marks are from a hand position, as they match perfectly, and not from a strumming plectrum. Your ideas are excellent, and I would have also asked the same questions, but all in all, the marks match what a baroque lutenist would have done, with his thumb sticking out to towards the neck, and playing the bass courses while keeping the hand in position. It is amazing. The instruments are clearly baroque lutes, not anything similar to the pictures you showed. Also, they were kept in the attic for a very long time. The wear marks clearly coincide with at least 2 different baroque lute players on the smaller of the 2 lutes. The larger lute shows a musician playing close to the bridge. ed At 02:55 PM 2/7/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Thank you. Sorry to press you a wee bit but do you think it was played in its 13 course form because of the pattern of the marks? ie do they dissapear or become significantly fainter under where the 1st to 13th courses would run? Even if so, its last played state and that causing the marks might still have been from using it as a guitar, but one with extended basses. You'll know that from the mid 19th century extended bass guitars became relatively popular with 10 courses being common (Mertz, Coste, Padovetz, Dubez, Bayer et al) and later towards the end of the century more courses were added. I recall of picture of Heinrich Albert and his chums playing a rum collection of such guitars. Various websites eg http://www.harpguitars.netwww.harpguitars.net has many pictures. MH Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Once again, I doubt it very much. The marks are clearly made from playing a 13 course lute. And, it is documented that the instruments were in the castle attic for a very long time. ed At 08:46 AM 2/7/2008
[LUTE] Re: piece of the month revived
Hi Martin, I personally prefer a bit of reverb, but admit it is a difficult thing to get right without spending thousands on a professional system. I think your recordings with reverb sound better - better separation, and more of the instrument's resonance comes through. Nice playing, again. Your website is waking up! Just my tuppenceworth. Rob MacKillop -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: piece of the month revived
Highly doubtful, on many accounts. For the vast majority of pieces, the vihuela had fantasias, tientos, intabulations, Canciones. Not dances (although, there are 1 or 2 dances). Besides, the melody to me sounds very, very English/Elizabethan. ed At 08:00 PM 2/8/2008 +0100, Are Vidar Boye Hansen wrote: Is it possible that the Spanish Pavan actually is a spanish vihuela piece? Are Dear All, I have revived the Piece of the Month feature on my site. It now includes MP3 files. No reverb added this time - compare them with the files on my recordings page and let me know which you prefer: www.luteshop.co.uk/month/pieceofthemonth.htm www.luteshop.co.uk/recordings.html Best wishes, Martin To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.21/1265 - Release Date: 2/7/2008 11:17 AM Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
[LUTE] Re: piece of the month revived
Dear Are, I'm not sure about the origins of the Spanish Pavan - I know there is an article by Diana Poulton in the LSJ 1961 but have not had time to look it up. It seems almost like a ground bass, rather than a tune, but as with so many other pieces, it is hard to draw a line between the two. I will delve some more into the archives Best wishes, Martin Are Vidar Boye Hansen wrote: Is it possible that the Spanish Pavan actually is a spanish vihuela piece? Are Dear All, I have revived the Piece of the Month feature on my site. It now includes MP3 files. No reverb added this time - compare them with the files on my recordings page and let me know which you prefer: www.luteshop.co.uk/month/pieceofthemonth.htm www.luteshop.co.uk/recordings.html Best wishes, Martin To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota - another thought
Yes, this is how it appears to be. In examining the top, it showed all signs of nail usage. I have never, ever encountered evidence to show that some sort of finger pick was used for the baroque lute. Nails were used by some, and nails are what made these marks. Keep in mind, that in this day and age, we tend to have the tops dished, or scooped a bit, so the strings are not quite so close to the belly; Edlinger did not scoop either one of these baroque lutes, and the action was quite close, for the right hand. Hence, the finger _and_ nail marks from the various players of this great lute. ed At 10:33 PM 2/8/2008 +0100, =?iso-8859-2?Q?Jaros=B3aw_Lipski?= wrote: So, to sum up my guess is Edlinger was scratched by somebody playing with his natural finger nails. It would be interesting to find out when it had took place in past, but probably such an investigation would be very difficult and expensive. Jaroslaw Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: piece of the month revived
Dear Martin, a couple of years ago a harpsichord player mentioned to me that the Elizabethan name for the piece we are talking about - The Spanish Pavan came from it being introduced to English musicians by Antonio Cabezón when he visited England in 1554-1555. He published the piece in one of his keyboard collections under the title Pavana italiana to confuse matters even more. I have no idea if this is a myth or can be backed up by any evidence. All the best Mark -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: Martin Shepherd [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Gesendet: Freitag, 8. Februar 2008 23:54 An: Are Vidar Boye Hansen; Lute Net Betreff: [LUTE] Re: piece of the month revived Dear Are, I'm not sure about the origins of the Spanish Pavan - I know there is an article by Diana Poulton in the LSJ 1961 but have not had time to look it up. It seems almost like a ground bass, rather than a tune, but as with so many other pieces, it is hard to draw a line between the two. I will delve some more into the archives Best wishes, Martin Are Vidar Boye Hansen wrote: Is it possible that the Spanish Pavan actually is a spanish vihuela piece? Are Dear All, I have revived the Piece of the Month feature on my site. It now includes MP3 files. No reverb added this time - compare them with the files on my recordings page and let me know which you prefer: www.luteshop.co.uk/month/pieceofthemonth.htm www.luteshop.co.uk/recordings.html Best wishes, Martin To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: lute body...
On Tue, Feb 5, 2008, Duncan Midwinter [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: At 06:37 + 5/2/08, Duncan Midwinter wrote: Is there a method for drawing the teardrop shape of a lute soundboard using circles? I've been messing around in Adobe Illustrator drawing different sized circles and can almost get there -- but not quite. compass, dividers, straightedge are traditional drafting tools which were certainly used in the renaissance. A thin piece of wood (batten) is a common way of making a smooth curve whose mathematical shape is, well, probably best left to a mthematician to puzzle out. The lines drawn on wood then must be realized using hand tools to accomplish a mold or some template; the intended shape is not always realized, but something good enough emerges, and is then used to guide the lute body's construction, again, an approximation. The human eye is a wonderful thing, sometimes its best to trust it and be happy. -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
