[LUTE] Re: Thigh support for theorbo
Well said, John! I agree entirely with what you say. Are you planning to live any longer than people typically did in the 16th C? Martin On 04/10/2013 07:17, John Lenti wrote: Speaking as a full-time theorbo player, I feel that I can say with some authority that the theorbo cannot be held comfortably by anyone ever. What you do is you play near the bridge and suffer, pop some Advil, suffer some more, pop a Demerol, more massage, claw at the strings nearish the bridge, Demerol, suffer, stretch, suffer, take a month off, and then start over. The theorbo is out to get you, and it will win. Sent from my Ouija board On Oct 3, 2013, at 12:15 PM, Christopher Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com wrote: Dear all, Don't forget the right hand and arm placement. It should be very close to the bridge with fingers nearly perpendicular to the strings. This is not only historical, but it helps the instrument cut through an ensemble much better than the delicate tone produced by playing over the rose. I typically start by placing the instrument so that the historically appropriate right hand technique is possible and I can reach the left hand notes. Usually this automatically puts the theorbo right in place, without having to constantly cajole it. (Becomes more difficult on a mucho macho tiorba.) I find that an almost-vertical position makes it very difficult to get the right hand close enough to the bridge without feeling like you're in a Picasso painting. Chris Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A. Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com On Thu, 10/3/13, Dan Winheld dwinh...@lmi.net wrote: Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thigh support for theorbo To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: William Samson willsam...@yahoo.co.uk, Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu, Daniel Shoskes kidneykut...@gmail.com Date: Thursday, October 3, 2013, 12:12 PM For the upright, almost vertical position check out the Pipa player's technique. I have NEVER seen them held horizontally- and those are not excessively large lutes. Having played the viola da gamba quite seriously years ago, I can attest to the great ease of long stretches on a vertically held instrument. It's not uncommon for a typical (usually Renaissance) lute player to get a tenor size viol- only to discover that it's uncomfortably small for the vertical position for long, serious practice/playing. Except for the larger/longer archlutes, holding comfort security has never been an issue for me (unlike Classical Guitar; scoliosis tendonitis- thanks a lot, Segovia!). A large suede guitar strap handles my small arciliuto quite handily, and I now hold my guitars the way I hold my lutes- on the right thigh, legs crossed either way, low seat, or sometimes RIGHT foot on a low footstool or guitar case end, the cat, or whatever may be underfoot in stomping distance. One of my new students spent weeks finding no comfortable lute position- until the day I had her try a simple lute song (she was a singer) -she inhaled, straightened up somewhat on her chair- channeling her singing awareness position- and the lute fell right into place on her lap, comfortable and easy to hold play. In that vein one might treat the problem of holding lutes as an almost Yogic sort of challenge. Also perhaps contact Jacob Herringman- he is a licensed Alexander Technique practitioner as well as a hell of a fine lute player, but I don't know if he has any experience with the larger instruments. But suction cups on lutes? SUCTION CUPS??? Lord have mercy! (Excuse me, Herr Kapsperger, is that a toilet plunger in your hand or are you just glad to play continuo for me?) Dan On 10/3/2013 12:57 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Dear Bill, Most early representations show theorboes being held quite high up and resting on the right thigh rather than between the legs as a modern 'classical' guitarist. Further, many early extant instruments have fixing points for a cord/strap/ribbon: a button (or similar) at the end of the body and one on the back of the first pegbox roughly where the pegs are. Incidentally I can't see evidence of a practice of sitting on the strap end. By resting the instrument on the right thigh (similar to a flamenco player's posture rather than a modern 'classical' guitarist- ie inbetween the legs) and using such a strap I find all one needs is something like a rough thick chamois leather placed on the thigh to avoid any possibility of the instrument's lower side sliding forward. No doubt, as has been suggested before (Bob Spencer I think), the heavy coats of earlier players served much the same purpose. It is also helpful to hold a theorbo more upright than a lute so that the centre of gravity is closer in - it also helps a bit in playing large left hand stretches. I've seen quite a few
[LUTE] Re: Thigh support for theorbo
Yes, as mandora player __ De : Martin Shepherd mar...@luteshop.co.uk A : John Lenti johnle...@hotmail.com Cc : Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Envoye le : Vendredi 4 octobre 2013 13h20 Objet : [LUTE] Re: Thigh support for theorbo Well said, John! I agree entirely with what you say. Are you planning to live any longer than people typically did in the 16th C? Martin On 04/10/2013 07:17, John Lenti wrote: Speaking as a full-time theorbo player, I feel that I can say with some authority that the theorbo cannot be held comfortably by anyone ever. What you do is you play near the bridge and suffer, pop some Advil, suffer some more, pop a Demerol, more massage, claw at the strings nearish the bridge, Demerol, suffer, stretch, suffer, take a month off, and then start over. The theorbo is out to get you, and it will win. Sent from my Ouija board On Oct 3, 2013, at 12:15 PM, Christopher Wilke [1]chriswi...@yahoo.com wrote: Dear all, Don't forget the right hand and arm placement. It should be very close to the bridge with fingers nearly perpendicular to the strings. This is not only historical, but it helps the instrument cut through an ensemble much better than the delicate tone produced by playing over the rose. I typically start by placing the instrument so that the historically appropriate right hand technique is possible and I can reach the left hand notes. Usually this automatically puts the theorbo right in place, without having to constantly cajole it. (Becomes more difficult on a mucho macho tiorba.) I find that an almost-vertical position makes it very difficult to get the right hand close enough to the bridge without feeling like you're in a Picasso painting. Chris Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A. Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com On Thu, 10/3/13, Dan Winheld [2]dwinh...@lmi.net wrote: Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thigh support for theorbo To: Martyn Hodgson [3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: William Samson [4]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk, Lute List [5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu, Daniel Shoskes [6]kidneykut...@gmail.com Date: Thursday, October 3, 2013, 12:12 PM For the upright, almost vertical position check out the Pipa player's technique. I have NEVER seen them held horizontally- and those are not excessively large lutes. Having played the viola da gamba quite seriously years ago, I can attest to the great ease of long stretches on a vertically held instrument. It's not uncommon for a typical (usually Renaissance) lute player to get a tenor size viol- only to discover that it's uncomfortably small for the vertical position for long, serious practice/playing. Except for the larger/longer archlutes, holding comfort security has never been an issue for me (unlike Classical Guitar; scoliosis tendonitis- thanks a lot, Segovia!). A large suede guitar strap handles my small arciliuto quite handily, and I now hold my guitars the way I hold my lutes- on the right thigh, legs crossed either way, low seat, or sometimes RIGHT foot on a low footstool or guitar case end, the cat, or whatever may be underfoot in stomping distance. One of my new students spent weeks finding no comfortable lute position- until the day I had her try a simple lute song (she was a singer) -she inhaled, straightened up somewhat on her chair- channeling her singing awareness position- and the lute fell right into place on her lap, comfortable and easy to hold play. In that vein one might treat the problem of holding lutes as an almost Yogic sort of challenge. Also perhaps contact Jacob Herringman- he is a licensed Alexander Technique practitioner as well as a hell of a fine lute player, but I don't know if he has any experience with the larger instruments. But suction cups on lutes? SUCTION CUPS??? Lord have mercy! (Excuse me, Herr Kapsperger, is that a toilet plunger in your hand or are you just glad to play continuo for me?) Dan On 10/3/2013 12:57 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Dear Bill, Most early representations show theorboes being held quite high up and resting on the right thigh rather than between the legs as a modern 'classical' guitarist. Further, many early extant instruments have fixing points for a cord/strap/ribbon: a button (or similar) at the end of the body and one on the back of the first pegbox roughly where the pegs are. Incidentally I can't see evidence of a practice of sitting on the strap end. By resting the instrument on the right thigh
[LUTE] Re: Thigh support for theorbo
Point of information - the original playing position of the pipa is horizontal, as these paintings will show. Tang dynasty: http://www.liufangmusic.net/images/pictures/tang_pipa.jpg Tang dynasty, with plectrum: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/52/Pipa_player_dunhuang1.jpg Song dynasty: http://www.houshow.com/school/education/_images/pipa.jpg While it is true that the majority of pipa players now play their instruments nearly at a vertical angle, those who play pipa according to the older schools do not. Nanguan (Fujian Tang music) pipa: http://english.moc.gov.tw/article/index.php?sn=842 Nanguan pipa: http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8172/8027971895_31b14d2df3_o.jpg similarly, the Japanese biwa (though I am aware some styles hold it near vertical): http://ottomen.com/justin/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/biwa_g_main.jpg the Vietnamese tỳ bà appears to be held at a 45 degree angle... Edward Chrysogonus Yong edward.y...@gmail.com On 4 Oct, 2013, at 12:12 AM, Dan Winheld dwinh...@lmi.net wrote: For the upright, almost vertical position check out the Pipa player's technique. I have NEVER seen them held horizontally- and those are not excessively large lutes. Having played the viola da gamba quite seriously years ago, I can attest to the great ease of long stretches on a vertically held instrument. It's not uncommon for a typical (usually Renaissance) lute player to get a tenor size viol- only to discover that it's uncomfortably small for the vertical position for long, serious practice/playing. Except for the larger/longer archlutes, holding comfort security has never been an issue for me (unlike Classical Guitar; scoliosis tendonitis- thanks a lot, Segovia!). A large suede guitar strap handles my small arciliuto quite handily, and I now hold my guitars the way I hold my lutes- on the right thigh, legs crossed either way, low seat, or sometimes RIGHT foot on a low footstool or guitar case end, the cat, or whatever may be underfoot in stomping distance. One of my new students spent weeks finding no comfortable lute position- until the day I had her try a simple lute song (she was a singer) -she inhaled, straightened up somewhat on her chair- channeling her singing awareness position- and the lute fell right into place on her lap, comfortable and easy to hold play. In that vein one might treat the problem of holding lutes as an almost Yogic sort of challenge. Also perhaps contact Jacob Herringman- he is a licensed Alexander Technique practitioner as well as a hell of a fine lute player, but I don't know if he has any experience with the larger instruments. But suction cups on lutes? SUCTION CUPS??? Lord have mercy! (Excuse me, Herr Kapsperger, is that a toilet plunger in your hand or are you just glad to play continuo for me?) Dan On 10/3/2013 12:57 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Dear Bill, Most early representations show theorboes being held quite high up and resting on the right thigh rather than between the legs as a modern 'classical' guitarist. Further, many early extant instruments have fixing points for a cord/strap/ribbon: a button (or similar) at the end of the body and one on the back of the first pegbox roughly where the pegs are. Incidentally I can't see evidence of a practice of sitting on the strap end. By resting the instrument on the right thigh (similar to a flamenco player's posture rather than a modern 'classical' guitarist- ie inbetween the legs) and using such a strap I find all one needs is something like a rough thick chamois leather placed on the thigh to avoid any possibility of the instrument's lower side sliding forward. No doubt, as has been suggested before (Bob Spencer I think), the heavy coats of earlier players served much the same purpose. It is also helpful to hold a theorbo more upright than a lute so that the centre of gravity is closer in - it also helps a bit in playing large left hand stretches. I've seen quite a few newcomers to the theorbo struggle mightily with trying to play a theorbo in an almost horizontal position as they play the lute and who soon find it much easier when it is held more upright. regards, Martyn From: William Samson willsam...@yahoo.co.uk To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Daniel Shoskes kidneykut...@gmail.com Sent: Wednesday, 2 October 2013, 22:42 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thigh support for theorbo Interesting question. Do we know how it was done back in the day? Bill Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android __ From: Daniel Shoskes [1]kidneykut...@gmail.com; To: Lute List [2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Subject: [LUTE] Thigh support for theorbo Sent: Wed, Oct 2, 2013 9:35:50 PM Dear Theorbistas: has anyone ever tried one of the classical guitar
[LUTE] Re: Thigh support for theorbo
Very clever. I recall about 10 years ago I asked Dan Larson to build me a theorbo, and he replied he would not, because he told me I do not want one. Turns out he is correct. ed At 12:17 AM 10/4/2013, John Lenti wrote: Speaking as a full-time theorbo player, I feel that I can say with some authority that the theorbo cannot be held comfortably by anyone ever. What you do is you play near the bridge and suffer, pop some Advil, suffer some more, pop a Demerol, more massage, claw at the strings nearish the bridge, Demerol, suffer, stretch, suffer, take a month off, and then start over. The theorbo is out to get you, and it will win. Sent from my Ouija board On Oct 3, 2013, at 12:15 PM, Christopher Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com wrote: Dear all, Don't forget the right hand and arm placement. It should be very close to the bridge with fingers nearly perpendicular to the strings. This is not only historical, but it helps the instrument cut through an ensemble much better than the delicate tone produced by playing over the rose. I typically start by placing the instrument so that the historically appropriate right hand technique is possible and I can reach the left hand notes. Usually this automatically puts the theorbo right in place, without having to constantly cajole it. (Becomes more difficult on a mucho macho tiorba.) I find that an almost-vertical position makes it very difficult to get the right hand close enough to the bridge without feeling like you're in a Picasso painting. Chris Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A. Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com On Thu, 10/3/13, Dan Winheld dwinh...@lmi.net wrote: Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thigh support for theorbo To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: William Samson willsam...@yahoo.co.uk, Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu, Daniel Shoskes kidneykut...@gmail.com Date: Thursday, October 3, 2013, 12:12 PM For the upright, almost vertical position check out the Pipa player's technique. I have NEVER seen them held horizontally- and those are not excessively large lutes. Having played the viola da gamba quite seriously years ago, I can attest to the great ease of long stretches on a vertically held instrument. It's not uncommon for a typical (usually Renaissance) lute player to get a tenor size viol- only to discover that it's uncomfortably small for the vertical position for long, serious practice/playing. Except for the larger/longer archlutes, holding comfort security has never been an issue for me (unlike Classical Guitar; scoliosis tendonitis- thanks a lot, Segovia!). A large suede guitar strap handles my small arciliuto quite handily, and I now hold my guitars the way I hold my lutes- on the right thigh, legs crossed either way, low seat, or sometimes RIGHT foot on a low footstool or guitar case end, the cat, or whatever may be underfoot in stomping distance. One of my new students spent weeks finding no comfortable lute position- until the day I had her try a simple lute song (she was a singer) -she inhaled, straightened up somewhat on her chair- channeling her singing awareness position- and the lute fell right into place on her lap, comfortable and easy to hold play. In that vein one might treat the problem of holding lutes as an almost Yogic sort of challenge. Also perhaps contact Jacob Herringman- he is a licensed Alexander Technique practitioner as well as a hell of a fine lute player, but I don't know if he has any experience with the larger instruments. But suction cups on lutes? SUCTION CUPS??? Lord have mercy! (Excuse me, Herr Kapsperger, is that a toilet plunger in your hand or are you just glad to play continuo for me?) Dan On 10/3/2013 12:57 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Dear Bill, Most early representations show theorboes being held quite high up and resting on the right thigh rather than between the legs as a modern 'classical' guitarist. Further, many early extant instruments have fixing points for a cord/strap/ribbon: a button (or similar) at the end of the body and one on the back of the first pegbox roughly where the pegs are. Incidentally I can't see evidence of a practice of sitting on the strap end. By resting the instrument on the right thigh (similar to a flamenco player's posture rather than a modern 'classical' guitarist- ie inbetween the legs) and using such a strap I find all one needs is something like a rough thick chamois leather placed on the thigh to avoid any possibility of the instrument's lower side sliding forward. No doubt, as has been suggested before (Bob Spencer I think), the heavy coats of earlier players served much the same purpose. It is also helpful to hold
[LUTE] Re: Thigh support for theorbo
large left hand stretches. I've seen quite a few newcomers to the theorbo struggle mightily with trying to play a theorbo in an almost horizontal position as they play the lute and who soon find it much easier when it is held more upright. regards, Martyn From: William Samson willsam...@yahoo.co.uk To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Daniel Shoskes kidneykut...@gmail.com Sent: Wednesday, 2 October 2013, 22:42 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thigh support for theorbo Interesting question. Do we know how it was done back in the day? Bill Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android __ From: Daniel Shoskes [1]kidneykut...@gmail.com; To: Lute List [2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Subject: [LUTE] Thigh support for theorbo Sent: Wed, Oct 2, 2013 9:35:50 PM Dear Theorbistas: has anyone ever tried one of the classical guitar rests/cushions/supports that many guitarists now use instead of a footstool for their theorbo? Some have suction cups or clamps which I wouldn't be thrilled to use on my instrument, but some, like the Dynarette don't. I'm still struggling to find an ergonomic position and the sitting on the strap options just don't fit my body. Thanks Danny To get on or off this list see list information at [1][3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:kidneykut...@gmail.com 2. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thigh support for theorbo
If you remove the neck with its extension and jam it through the rose, you can rig a sail on the thing and go boating on the bay. One gentleman who used to play a gigantic theorbo here had an instrument that would have floated at least three medium size lutenists and their lunch comfortably. :-D Ed- you may possibly have met him out here (can't recall his name at the moment); an older gentleman who has since passed on- don't know what has happened to his theorboat. Dan On 10/4/2013 5:39 AM, Edward Martin wrote: Very clever. I recall about 10 years ago I asked Dan Larson to build me a theorbo, and he replied he would not, because he told me I do not want one. Turns out he is correct. ed At 12:17 AM 10/4/2013, John Lenti wrote: Speaking as a full-time theorbo player, I feel that I can say with some authority that the theorbo cannot be held comfortably by anyone ever. What you do is you play near the bridge and suffer, pop some Advil, suffer some more, pop a Demerol, more massage, claw at the strings nearish the bridge, Demerol, suffer, stretch, suffer, take a month off, and then start over. The theorbo is out to get you, and it will win. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thigh support for theorbo
Dear Danny, I made some good experiences with Ergoplay (http://www.ergoplay.de/index_engl.html). It seems to be similar to the Gitano but the lever action on the rips is much less. There are two types – both are interesting. Best, Jörg PS: I prefer the kid’s suckers as they are as small as the rips are. Am 02.10.2013 um 23:35 schrieb Daniel Shoskes kidneykut...@gmail.com: Dear Theorbistas: has anyone ever tried one of the classical guitar rests/cushions/supports that many guitarists now use instead of a footstool for their theorbo? Some have suction cups or clamps which I wouldn't be thrilled to use on my instrument, but some, like the Dynarette don't. I'm still struggling to find an ergonomic position and the sitting on the strap options just don't fit my body. Thanks Danny To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thigh support for theorbo
Dear Bill, Most early representations show theorboes being held quite high up and resting on the right thigh rather than between the legs as a modern 'classical' guitarist. Further, many early extant instruments have fixing points for a cord/strap/ribbon: a button (or similar) at the end of the body and one on the back of the first pegbox roughly where the pegs are. Incidentally I can't see evidence of a practice of sitting on the strap end. By resting the instrument on the right thigh (similar to a flamenco player's posture rather than a modern 'classical' guitarist- ie inbetween the legs) and using such a strap I find all one needs is something like a rough thick chamois leather placed on the thigh to avoid any possibility of the instrument's lower side sliding forward. No doubt, as has been suggested before (Bob Spencer I think), the heavy coats of earlier players served much the same purpose. It is also helpful to hold a theorbo more upright than a lute so that the centre of gravity is closer in - it also helps a bit in playing large left hand stretches. I've seen quite a few newcomers to the theorbo struggle mightily with trying to play a theorbo in an almost horizontal position as they play the lute and who soon find it much easier when it is held more upright. regards, Martyn From: William Samson willsam...@yahoo.co.uk To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Daniel Shoskes kidneykut...@gmail.com Sent: Wednesday, 2 October 2013, 22:42 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thigh support for theorbo Interesting question. Do we know how it was done back in the day? Bill Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android __ From: Daniel Shoskes [1]kidneykut...@gmail.com; To: Lute List [2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Subject: [LUTE] Thigh support for theorbo Sent: Wed, Oct 2, 2013 9:35:50 PM Dear Theorbistas: has anyone ever tried one of the classical guitar rests/cushions/supports that many guitarists now use instead of a footstool for their theorbo? Some have suction cups or clamps which I wouldn't be thrilled to use on my instrument, but some, like the Dynarette don't. I'm still struggling to find an ergonomic position and the sitting on the strap options just don't fit my body. Thanks Danny To get on or off this list see list information at [1][3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:kidneykut...@gmail.com 2. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thigh support for theorbo
Thanks Martyn, I was sure this was something you would have considered in depth. Maybe we should turn down the heating and wear heavy coats to perform ;) Bill Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android __ From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk; To: William Samson willsam...@yahoo.co.uk; Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Daniel Shoskes kidneykut...@gmail.com; Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thigh support for theorbo Sent: Thu, Oct 3, 2013 7:57:22 AM Dear Bill, Most early representations show theorboes being held quite high up and resting on the right thigh rather than between the legs as a modern 'classical' guitarist. Further, many early extant instruments have fixing points for a cord/strap/ribbon: a button (or similar) at the end of the body and one on the back of the first pegbox roughly where the pegs are. Incidentally I can't see evidence of a practice of sitting on the strap end. By resting the instrument on the right thigh (similar to a flamenco player's posture rather than a modern 'classical' guitarist- ie inbetween the legs) and using such a strap I find all one needs is something like a rough thick chamois leather placed on the thigh to avoid any possibility of the instrument's lower side sliding forward. No doubt, as has been suggested before (Bob Spencer I think), the heavy coats of earlier players served much the same purpose. It is also helpful to hold a theorbo more upright than a lute so that the centre of gravity is closer in - it also helps a bit in playing large left hand stretches. I've seen quite a few newcomers to the theorbo struggle mightily with trying to play a theorbo in an almost horizontal position as they play the lute and who soon find it much easier when it is held more upright. regards, Martyn From: William Samson [1]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk To: Lute List [2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Daniel Shoskes [3]kidneykut...@gmail.com Sent: Wednesday, 2 October 2013, 22:42 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thigh support for theorbo Interesting question. Do we know how it was done back in the day? Bill Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android __ From: Daniel Shoskes [1][4]kidneykut...@gmail.com; To: Lute List [2][5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Subject: [LUTE] Thigh support for theorbo Sent: Wed, Oct 2, 2013 9:35:50 PM Dear Theorbistas: has anyone ever tried one of the classical guitar rests/cushions/supports that many guitarists now use instead of a footstool for their theorbo? Some have suction cups or clamps which I wouldn't be thrilled to use on my instrument, but some, like the Dynarette don't. I'm still struggling to find an ergonomic position and the sitting on the strap options just don't fit my body. Thanks Danny To get on or off this list see list information at [1][3][6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [4][7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:[8]kidneykut...@gmail.com 2. mailto:[9]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. [10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 4. [11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. javascript:return 2. javascript:return 3. javascript:return 4. javascript:return 5. javascript:return 6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 8. javascript:return 9. javascript:return 10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 11. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thigh support for theorbo
Thanks for all the replies. Time to start experimenting! On Oct 3, 2013, at 3:57 AM, Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Dear Bill, Most early representations show theorboes being held quite high up and resting on the right thigh rather than between the legs as a modern 'classical' guitarist. Further, many early extant instruments have fixing points for a cord/strap/ribbon: a button (or similar) at the end of the body and one on the back of the first pegbox roughly where the pegs are. Incidentally I can't see evidence of a practice of sitting on the strap end. By resting the instrument on the right thigh (similar to a flamenco player's posture rather than a modern 'classical' guitarist- ie inbetween the legs) and using such a strap I find all one needs is something like a rough thick chamois leather placed on the thigh to avoid any possibility of the instrument's lower side sliding forward. No doubt, as has been suggested before (Bob Spencer I think), the heavy coats of earlier players served much the same purpose. It is also helpful to hold a theorbo more upright than a lute so that the centre of gravity is closer in - it also helps a bit in playing large left hand stretches. I've seen quite a few newcomers to the theorbo struggle mightily with trying to play a theorbo in an almost horizontal position as they play the lute and who soon find it much easier when it is held more upright. regards, Martyn From: William Samson willsam...@yahoo.co.uk To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Daniel Shoskes kidneykut...@gmail.com Sent: Wednesday, 2 October 2013, 22:42 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thigh support for theorbo Interesting question. Do we know how it was done back in the day? Bill Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android __ From: Daniel Shoskes [1]kidneykut...@gmail.com; To: Lute List [2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Subject: [LUTE] Thigh support for theorbo Sent: Wed, Oct 2, 2013 9:35:50 PM Dear Theorbistas: has anyone ever tried one of the classical guitar rests/cushions/supports that many guitarists now use instead of a footstool for their theorbo? Some have suction cups or clamps which I wouldn't be thrilled to use on my instrument, but some, like the Dynarette don't. I'm still struggling to find an ergonomic position and the sitting on the strap options just don't fit my body. Thanks Danny To get on or off this list see list information at [1][3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:kidneykut...@gmail.com 2. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thigh support for theorbo
Strap and leather cloth is all I need. The chitarrone does not rest on the leg, though, but on the outer side of the right leg. My two cents. Mathias -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Daniel Shoskes Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2013 11:55 AM To: Lute List Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thigh support for theorbo Thanks for all the replies. Time to start experimenting! On Oct 3, 2013, at 3:57 AM, Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Dear Bill, Most early representations show theorboes being held quite high up and resting on the right thigh rather than between the legs as a modern 'classical' guitarist. Further, many early extant instruments have fixing points for a cord/strap/ribbon: a button (or similar) at the end of the body and one on the back of the first pegbox roughly where the pegs are. Incidentally I can't see evidence of a practice of sitting on the strap end. By resting the instrument on the right thigh (similar to a flamenco player's posture rather than a modern 'classical' guitarist- ie inbetween the legs) and using such a strap I find all one needs is something like a rough thick chamois leather placed on the thigh to avoid any possibility of the instrument's lower side sliding forward. No doubt, as has been suggested before (Bob Spencer I think), the heavy coats of earlier players served much the same purpose. It is also helpful to hold a theorbo more upright than a lute so that the centre of gravity is closer in - it also helps a bit in playing large left hand stretches. I've seen quite a few newcomers to the theorbo struggle mightily with trying to play a theorbo in an almost horizontal position as they play the lute and who soon find it much easier when it is held more upright. regards, Martyn From: William Samson willsam...@yahoo.co.uk To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Daniel Shoskes kidneykut...@gmail.com Sent: Wednesday, 2 October 2013, 22:42 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thigh support for theorbo Interesting question. Do we know how it was done back in the day? Bill Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android __ From: Daniel Shoskes [1]kidneykut...@gmail.com; To: Lute List [2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Subject: [LUTE] Thigh support for theorbo Sent: Wed, Oct 2, 2013 9:35:50 PM Dear Theorbistas: has anyone ever tried one of the classical guitar rests/cushions/supports that many guitarists now use instead of a footstool for their theorbo? Some have suction cups or clamps which I wouldn't be thrilled to use on my instrument, but some, like the Dynarette don't. I'm still struggling to find an ergonomic position and the sitting on the strap options just don't fit my body. Thanks Danny To get on or off this list see list information at [1][3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:kidneykut...@gmail.com 2. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thigh support for theorbo
For the upright, almost vertical position check out the Pipa player's technique. I have NEVER seen them held horizontally- and those are not excessively large lutes. Having played the viola da gamba quite seriously years ago, I can attest to the great ease of long stretches on a vertically held instrument. It's not uncommon for a typical (usually Renaissance) lute player to get a tenor size viol- only to discover that it's uncomfortably small for the vertical position for long, serious practice/playing. Except for the larger/longer archlutes, holding comfort security has never been an issue for me (unlike Classical Guitar; scoliosis tendonitis- thanks a lot, Segovia!). A large suede guitar strap handles my small arciliuto quite handily, and I now hold my guitars the way I hold my lutes- on the right thigh, legs crossed either way, low seat, or sometimes RIGHT foot on a low footstool or guitar case end, the cat, or whatever may be underfoot in stomping distance. One of my new students spent weeks finding no comfortable lute position- until the day I had her try a simple lute song (she was a singer) -she inhaled, straightened up somewhat on her chair- channeling her singing awareness position- and the lute fell right into place on her lap, comfortable and easy to hold play. In that vein one might treat the problem of holding lutes as an almost Yogic sort of challenge. Also perhaps contact Jacob Herringman- he is a licensed Alexander Technique practitioner as well as a hell of a fine lute player, but I don't know if he has any experience with the larger instruments. But suction cups on lutes? SUCTION CUPS??? Lord have mercy! (Excuse me, Herr Kapsperger, is that a toilet plunger in your hand or are you just glad to play continuo for me?) Dan On 10/3/2013 12:57 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Dear Bill, Most early representations show theorboes being held quite high up and resting on the right thigh rather than between the legs as a modern 'classical' guitarist. Further, many early extant instruments have fixing points for a cord/strap/ribbon: a button (or similar) at the end of the body and one on the back of the first pegbox roughly where the pegs are. Incidentally I can't see evidence of a practice of sitting on the strap end. By resting the instrument on the right thigh (similar to a flamenco player's posture rather than a modern 'classical' guitarist- ie inbetween the legs) and using such a strap I find all one needs is something like a rough thick chamois leather placed on the thigh to avoid any possibility of the instrument's lower side sliding forward. No doubt, as has been suggested before (Bob Spencer I think), the heavy coats of earlier players served much the same purpose. It is also helpful to hold a theorbo more upright than a lute so that the centre of gravity is closer in - it also helps a bit in playing large left hand stretches. I've seen quite a few newcomers to the theorbo struggle mightily with trying to play a theorbo in an almost horizontal position as they play the lute and who soon find it much easier when it is held more upright. regards, Martyn From: William Samson willsam...@yahoo.co.uk To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Daniel Shoskes kidneykut...@gmail.com Sent: Wednesday, 2 October 2013, 22:42 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thigh support for theorbo Interesting question. Do we know how it was done back in the day? Bill Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android __ From: Daniel Shoskes [1]kidneykut...@gmail.com; To: Lute List [2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Subject: [LUTE] Thigh support for theorbo Sent: Wed, Oct 2, 2013 9:35:50 PM Dear Theorbistas: has anyone ever tried one of the classical guitar rests/cushions/supports that many guitarists now use instead of a footstool for their theorbo? Some have suction cups or clamps which I wouldn't be thrilled to use on my instrument, but some, like the Dynarette don't. I'm still struggling to find an ergonomic position and the sitting on the strap options just don't fit my body. Thanks Danny To get on or off this list see list information at [1][3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:kidneykut...@gmail.com 2. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thigh support for theorbo
Dear all, Don't forget the right hand and arm placement. It should be very close to the bridge with fingers nearly perpendicular to the strings. This is not only historical, but it helps the instrument cut through an ensemble much better than the delicate tone produced by playing over the rose. I typically start by placing the instrument so that the historically appropriate right hand technique is possible and I can reach the left hand notes. Usually this automatically puts the theorbo right in place, without having to constantly cajole it. (Becomes more difficult on a mucho macho tiorba.) I find that an almost-vertical position makes it very difficult to get the right hand close enough to the bridge without feeling like you're in a Picasso painting. Chris Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A. Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com On Thu, 10/3/13, Dan Winheld dwinh...@lmi.net wrote: Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thigh support for theorbo To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: William Samson willsam...@yahoo.co.uk, Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu, Daniel Shoskes kidneykut...@gmail.com Date: Thursday, October 3, 2013, 12:12 PM For the upright, almost vertical position check out the Pipa player's technique. I have NEVER seen them held horizontally- and those are not excessively large lutes. Having played the viola da gamba quite seriously years ago, I can attest to the great ease of long stretches on a vertically held instrument. It's not uncommon for a typical (usually Renaissance) lute player to get a tenor size viol- only to discover that it's uncomfortably small for the vertical position for long, serious practice/playing. Except for the larger/longer archlutes, holding comfort security has never been an issue for me (unlike Classical Guitar; scoliosis tendonitis- thanks a lot, Segovia!). A large suede guitar strap handles my small arciliuto quite handily, and I now hold my guitars the way I hold my lutes- on the right thigh, legs crossed either way, low seat, or sometimes RIGHT foot on a low footstool or guitar case end, the cat, or whatever may be underfoot in stomping distance. One of my new students spent weeks finding no comfortable lute position- until the day I had her try a simple lute song (she was a singer) -she inhaled, straightened up somewhat on her chair- channeling her singing awareness position- and the lute fell right into place on her lap, comfortable and easy to hold play. In that vein one might treat the problem of holding lutes as an almost Yogic sort of challenge. Also perhaps contact Jacob Herringman- he is a licensed Alexander Technique practitioner as well as a hell of a fine lute player, but I don't know if he has any experience with the larger instruments. But suction cups on lutes? SUCTION CUPS??? Lord have mercy! (Excuse me, Herr Kapsperger, is that a toilet plunger in your hand or are you just glad to play continuo for me?) Dan On 10/3/2013 12:57 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Dear Bill, Most early representations show theorboes being held quite high up and resting on the right thigh rather than between the legs as a modern 'classical' guitarist. Further, many early extant instruments have fixing points for a cord/strap/ribbon: a button (or similar) at the end of the body and one on the back of the first pegbox roughly where the pegs are. Incidentally I can't see evidence of a practice of sitting on the strap end. By resting the instrument on the right thigh (similar to a flamenco player's posture rather than a modern 'classical' guitarist- ie inbetween the legs) and using such a strap I find all one needs is something like a rough thick chamois leather placed on the thigh to avoid any possibility of the instrument's lower side sliding forward. No doubt, as has been suggested before (Bob Spencer I think), the heavy coats of earlier players served much the same purpose. It is also helpful to hold a theorbo more upright than a lute so that the centre of gravity is closer in - it also helps a bit in playing large left hand stretches. I've seen quite a few newcomers to the theorbo struggle mightily with trying to play a theorbo in an almost horizontal position as they play the lute and who soon find it much easier when it is held more upright. regards, Martyn From: William Samson willsam...@yahoo.co.uk To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Daniel Shoskes kidneykut...@gmail.com Sent: Wednesday, 2 October 2013, 22:42 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thigh support for theorbo Interesting question. Do we know how it was done back in the day? Bill Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android
[LUTE] Re: Thigh support for theorbo
Speaking as a full-time theorbo player, I feel that I can say with some authority that the theorbo cannot be held comfortably by anyone ever. What you do is you play near the bridge and suffer, pop some Advil, suffer some more, pop a Demerol, more massage, claw at the strings nearish the bridge, Demerol, suffer, stretch, suffer, take a month off, and then start over. The theorbo is out to get you, and it will win. Sent from my Ouija board On Oct 3, 2013, at 12:15 PM, Christopher Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com wrote: Dear all, Don't forget the right hand and arm placement. It should be very close to the bridge with fingers nearly perpendicular to the strings. This is not only historical, but it helps the instrument cut through an ensemble much better than the delicate tone produced by playing over the rose. I typically start by placing the instrument so that the historically appropriate right hand technique is possible and I can reach the left hand notes. Usually this automatically puts the theorbo right in place, without having to constantly cajole it. (Becomes more difficult on a mucho macho tiorba.) I find that an almost-vertical position makes it very difficult to get the right hand close enough to the bridge without feeling like you're in a Picasso painting. Chris Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A. Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com On Thu, 10/3/13, Dan Winheld dwinh...@lmi.net wrote: Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thigh support for theorbo To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: William Samson willsam...@yahoo.co.uk, Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu, Daniel Shoskes kidneykut...@gmail.com Date: Thursday, October 3, 2013, 12:12 PM For the upright, almost vertical position check out the Pipa player's technique. I have NEVER seen them held horizontally- and those are not excessively large lutes. Having played the viola da gamba quite seriously years ago, I can attest to the great ease of long stretches on a vertically held instrument. It's not uncommon for a typical (usually Renaissance) lute player to get a tenor size viol- only to discover that it's uncomfortably small for the vertical position for long, serious practice/playing. Except for the larger/longer archlutes, holding comfort security has never been an issue for me (unlike Classical Guitar; scoliosis tendonitis- thanks a lot, Segovia!). A large suede guitar strap handles my small arciliuto quite handily, and I now hold my guitars the way I hold my lutes- on the right thigh, legs crossed either way, low seat, or sometimes RIGHT foot on a low footstool or guitar case end, the cat, or whatever may be underfoot in stomping distance. One of my new students spent weeks finding no comfortable lute position- until the day I had her try a simple lute song (she was a singer) -she inhaled, straightened up somewhat on her chair- channeling her singing awareness position- and the lute fell right into place on her lap, comfortable and easy to hold play. In that vein one might treat the problem of holding lutes as an almost Yogic sort of challenge. Also perhaps contact Jacob Herringman- he is a licensed Alexander Technique practitioner as well as a hell of a fine lute player, but I don't know if he has any experience with the larger instruments. But suction cups on lutes? SUCTION CUPS??? Lord have mercy! (Excuse me, Herr Kapsperger, is that a toilet plunger in your hand or are you just glad to play continuo for me?) Dan On 10/3/2013 12:57 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Dear Bill, Most early representations show theorboes being held quite high up and resting on the right thigh rather than between the legs as a modern 'classical' guitarist. Further, many early extant instruments have fixing points for a cord/strap/ribbon: a button (or similar) at the end of the body and one on the back of the first pegbox roughly where the pegs are. Incidentally I can't see evidence of a practice of sitting on the strap end. By resting the instrument on the right thigh (similar to a flamenco player's posture rather than a modern 'classical' guitarist- ie inbetween the legs) and using such a strap I find all one needs is something like a rough thick chamois leather placed on the thigh to avoid any possibility of the instrument's lower side sliding forward. No doubt, as has been suggested before (Bob Spencer I think), the heavy coats of earlier players served much the same purpose. It is also helpful to hold a theorbo more upright than a lute so that the centre of gravity is closer in - it also helps a bit in playing large left hand stretches. I've seen quite a few newcomers to the theorbo struggle mightily with trying to play a theorbo in an almost horizontal position
[LUTE] Re: Thigh support for theorbo
Interesting question. Do we know how it was done back in the day? Bill Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android __ From: Daniel Shoskes kidneykut...@gmail.com; To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Subject: [LUTE] Thigh support for theorbo Sent: Wed, Oct 2, 2013 9:35:50 PM Dear Theorbistas: has anyone ever tried one of the classical guitar rests/cushions/supports that many guitarists now use instead of a footstool for their theorbo? Some have suction cups or clamps which I wouldn't be thrilled to use on my instrument, but some, like the Dynarette don't. I'm still struggling to find an ergonomic position and the sitting on the strap options just don't fit my body. Thanks Danny To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thigh support for theorbo
Hi Danny My better half, Kathleen, tried the Gitano and several other suction-cup gizmos on her 8-course with success until the pressure it took to initiate the cups made a nice rib-crack. She's back to the footstool. I like to stand with my archlute using a strap. I use a wedge of foam to counter the twist that the instrument seems to want to do. With Best Regards, Joseph Mayes On 10/2/13 5:35 PM, Daniel Shoskes kidneykut...@gmail.com wrote: Dear Theorbistas: has anyone ever tried one of the classical guitar rests/cushions/supports that many guitarists now use instead of a footstool for their theorbo? Some have suction cups or clamps which I wouldn't be thrilled to use on my instrument, but some, like the Dynarette don't. I'm still struggling to find an ergonomic position and the sitting on the strap options just don't fit my body. Thanks Danny To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thigh support for theorbo
Dear Danny and All, I use a Dynarette, with a curved section cut out of the top to fit the heel of the lute. You can unzip the cover, take out the foam, slice off a section of it with a sharp knife, then reinsert it into the cover. It should be no problem for an experience surgeon like Danny! I also glued a mousepad to the bottom for a better grip on my thigh. Jim On 10/02/13, Daniel Shoskeskidneykut...@gmail.com wrote: Dear Theorbistas: has anyone ever tried one of the classical guitar rests/cushions/supports that many guitarists now use instead of a footstool for their theorbo? Some have suction cups or clamps which I wouldn't be thrilled to use on my instrument, but some, like the Dynarette don't. I'm still struggling to find an ergonomic position and the sitting on the strap options just don't fit my body. Thanks Danny To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/
