[LUTE] Re: beginners, and practicalities of buying lutes
Indeed the price of new lutes is too low. I bought my Rubio in 1968 with excess money left over from a summer job while I was an undergraduate student. I was just astounded at how much craftsmanship I got for $600. Maybe that is why Rubio eventually quit making lutes and switched to harpsichords. A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E. Principal Materials Nanoanalysis Engineer EMail: john.mardi...@asu.edu Cell: 408-921-3253 (does not work in TEM labs) Titan Lab: 480-727-5651 NION UltraSTEM Lab: 480-727-5652 JEOL ARM 200 Lab: 480-727-5653 2010F Lab: 480-727-5654 Office: 480-965-7946 John Cowley Center for HREM, LE-CSSS B134B Bateman Physical Sciences Building Arizona State University PO Box 871704 Tempe, AZ 85287-1704 -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Martin Shepherd Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2014 11:15 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: beginners, and practicalities of buying lutes Well, Roman, I can see why you upset a few people. I think mentioning lute makers or players by name, whether what you say about them is positive or negative, is just a bad idea - and arguably downright rude. If your comment is positive, someone reading it might wonder if you have an axe (sorry, no pun intended) to grind; if negative, your opinion is hard to judge and is almost inevitably biased and based on limited evidence. The price of a lute is difficult to make a judgement about. The price of new lutes is way too low - consider what a decent hand-made cello would cost! That's not because cello makers are greedy people, it's just that the price of a cello more accurately reflects the amount of work and expertise which goes into it. Even a cello maker earns less than a plumber or electrician. The price of secondhand lutes is more difficult. A good lute gets better with age, and perhaps the price should reflect that, but it's surprising how few people ask more than they paid, even if they've had the lute for a number of years. So sometimes there are excellent bargains to be had in the for sale columns. My site also has a page on buying a lute, including advice on what to look for in a secondhand lute. All the best, Martin On 15/10/2014 17:30, r.turov...@gmail.com wrote: Dear Collective Wisdom, Recently I had a few unpleasant conversations with some lute sellers, whose sales were thwarted by the advice given by me. Therefore I've decided to update and revise an old article of mine to reflect the practicalities of buying used lutes. So now I'm canvassing for ideas that can be added to it - http://polyhymnion.org/swv/theaxe.html Reply publicly! RT --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: beginners, and practicalities of buying lutes
I wrote ADD, not change. As I can tell from this sondage as well as the on FB: the lute-public opinion overwhelmingly tilts against narrow bridges. RT On 10/15/2014 9:19 PM, howard posner wrote: I asked the point of asking for ideas if you’ve already decided you’re not going to change the thing you’re asking ideas about, even to acknowledge that some players disagree with you. On Oct 15, 2014, at 2:46 PM, r.turov...@gmail.com wrote: Huh? All the players I respect tend to have wider bridges, and Pat's own Jauck-Rutherford was even 157 mm. My 155 was copied from Barto's. The players you respect aren’t the ones reading your remarks for beginners. If you mean to say “I shouldn’t acknowledge that anyone disagrees with me, because I’m right,” then I still wonder why you’ve asked anyone else’s opinion. On a less contentious note, an editing idea: the possessive “its” has no apostrophe. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: beginners, and practicalities of buying lutes
On Oct 16, 2014, at 7:32 AM, r.turov...@gmail.com wrote: I wrote ADD, not change. I guess that means you can’t take the apostrophe out of “it’s,” but you can add “not everyone shares my view about how wide bridge spacing should be.” So we’re agreed, and your path is clear. No need to thank me; all in a day’s work. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: beginners, and practicalities of buying lutes
Very well written. Mace would be proud of you. On Oct 16, 2014, at 12:30 AM, r.turov...@gmail.com wrote: Dear Collective Wisdom, Recently I had a few unpleasant conversations with some lute sellers, whose sales were thwarted by the advice given by me. Therefore I've decided to update and revise an old article of mine to reflect the practicalities of buying used lutes. So now I'm canvassing for ideas that can be added to it - http://polyhymnion.org/swv/theaxe.html Reply publicly! RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch https://soundcloud.com/ed-durbrow http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ --
[LUTE] Re: beginners, and practicalities of buying lutes
Roman- The article as it is now looks good to me. The only possible legitimate sale thwartation I can conceive of would be that of a good instrument by a builder that is not a model of what your article deems to be his best style- say an unusually fine vihuela or 6-course from a luthier more famous for, say, his Roman chitarrone or French theorbi. But of course that's a stretch, you merely offered perfectly legit guidelines. In that vein I would suggest that you might supply an updated list of luthiers- or link to such existing lists, the major lute societies maintain such lists. Your point no. 8 is quite well taken- and I suspect the source of most of your unpleasant conversations. There are indeed some totally out of touch, stubborn ignorami who refuse to believe: 1. That the ever-changing, (usually improving) early instrument production standards have made your old treasure worth much less. (No, your 6-fret, 30 pound, 7 course Renaissance lute Hauser knock-off with the Wooly Rhinoceros rebar bridge saddle is NOT worth $9,000). Sorry, but that treasure is now an obsolete, worthless curiosity. What's called a wall-hanger in the world of beautiful, but no longer functional objets. 2. The market controls you, not the other way around. An item- esp. an old, used item (no, I'm not talking about a Sellas, Strad, or Maler) is worth exactly what somebody is willing to pay for it; and no more. Go ahead, don't lower the price- just grow old while your lute sits on the lute list, eBay, coffee shop bulletin board, or wherever. P.S. - I would love to find a nice, sound, 10 course Franciolini- but it has to be genuine, and less than $450! ;-) Dan On 10/15/2014 8:30 AM, r.turov...@gmail.com wrote: Dear Collective Wisdom, Recently I had a few unpleasant conversations with some lute sellers, whose sales were thwarted by the advice given by me. Therefore I've decided to update and revise an old article of mine to reflect the practicalities of buying used lutes. So now I'm canvassing for ideas that can be added to it - http://polyhymnion.org/swv/theaxe.html Reply publicly! RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: beginners, and practicalities of buying lutes
Well, Roman, I can see why you upset a few people. I think mentioning lute makers or players by name, whether what you say about them is positive or negative, is just a bad idea - and arguably downright rude. If your comment is positive, someone reading it might wonder if you have an axe (sorry, no pun intended) to grind; if negative, your opinion is hard to judge and is almost inevitably biased and based on limited evidence. The price of a lute is difficult to make a judgement about. The price of new lutes is way too low - consider what a decent hand-made cello would cost! That's not because cello makers are greedy people, it's just that the price of a cello more accurately reflects the amount of work and expertise which goes into it. Even a cello maker earns less than a plumber or electrician. The price of secondhand lutes is more difficult. A good lute gets better with age, and perhaps the price should reflect that, but it's surprising how few people ask more than they paid, even if they've had the lute for a number of years. So sometimes there are excellent bargains to be had in the for sale columns. My site also has a page on buying a lute, including advice on what to look for in a secondhand lute. All the best, Martin On 15/10/2014 17:30, r.turov...@gmail.com wrote: Dear Collective Wisdom, Recently I had a few unpleasant conversations with some lute sellers, whose sales were thwarted by the advice given by me. Therefore I've decided to update and revise an old article of mine to reflect the practicalities of buying used lutes. So now I'm canvassing for ideas that can be added to it - http://polyhymnion.org/swv/theaxe.html Reply publicly! RT --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: beginners, and practicalities of buying lutes
The price of secondhand lutes is more difficult. A good lute gets better with age, and perhaps the price should reflect that... Martin, I suspect that you and I have been experiencing quite different used/old lutes. Of course, you do specify good lute; but as an active lute teacher here in Berkeley I can tell you that the instruments that my beginning players bring- or obtain out of the LSA's rental stable- weren't nearly good enough to begin with, or we need to wait a few more aeons for them to come up to par. I should be getting kickbacks from all the lutes my students have been commissioning from various builders here in North America. But you seem to see more clearly than I did the pitfalls of mentioning luthiers by name in Roman's article. For a good discussion in regard to lute/luthier pricing- with a little necessary cold water in the face- I highly reccomend (in addition to Martin's own site) Mel Wong's blog site, Black Bird String Arts: http://www.blackbirdstringarts.com/about/ Dan On 10/15/2014 11:14 AM, Martin Shepherd wrote: Well, Roman, I can see why you upset a few people. I think mentioning lute makers or players by name, whether what you say about them is positive or negative, is just a bad idea - and arguably downright rude. If your comment is positive, someone reading it might wonder if you have an axe (sorry, no pun intended) to grind; if negative, your opinion is hard to judge and is almost inevitably biased and based on limited evidence. The price of a lute is difficult to make a judgement about. The price of new lutes is way too low - consider what a decent hand-made cello would cost! That's not because cello makers are greedy people, it's just that the price of a cello more accurately reflects the amount of work and expertise which goes into it. Even a cello maker earns less than a plumber or electrician. The price of secondhand lutes is more difficult. A good lute gets better with age, and perhaps the price should reflect that, but it's surprising how few people ask more than they paid, even if they've had the lute for a number of years. So sometimes there are excellent bargains to be had in the for sale columns. My site also has a page on buying a lute, including advice on what to look for in a secondhand lute. All the best, Martin On 15/10/2014 17:30, r.turov...@gmail.com wrote: Dear Collective Wisdom, Recently I had a few unpleasant conversations with some lute sellers, whose sales were thwarted by the advice given by me. Therefore I've decided to update and revise an old article of mine to reflect the practicalities of buying used lutes. So now I'm canvassing for ideas that can be added to it - http://polyhymnion.org/swv/theaxe.html Reply publicly! RT --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: beginners, and practicalities of buying lutes
Dan, as you say, I specified good lutes. Age will clearly not help anything which was never any good in the first place. When we have weeded out the lutes which are simply never going to be any good, that leaves a large number (perhaps the majority) where some TLC from someone who knows what they're doing in terms of stringing, spacings, setup, fretting, peg-fitting etc will greatly improve things. That's where you should send your students. M On 15/10/2014 20:47, Dan Winheld wrote: The price of secondhand lutes is more difficult. A good lute gets better with age, and perhaps the price should reflect that... Martin, I suspect that you and I have been experiencing quite different used/old lutes. Of course, you do specify good lute; but as an active lute teacher here in Berkeley I can tell you that the instruments that my beginning players bring- or obtain out of the LSA's rental stable- weren't nearly good enough to begin with, or we need to wait a few more aeons for them to come up to par. I should be getting kickbacks from all the lutes my students have been commissioning from various builders here in North America. But you seem to see more clearly than I did the pitfalls of mentioning luthiers by name in Roman's article. For a good discussion in regard to lute/luthier pricing- with a little necessary cold water in the face- I highly reccomend (in addition to Martin's own site) Mel Wong's blog site, Black Bird String Arts: http://www.blackbirdstringarts.com/about/ Dan On 10/15/2014 11:14 AM, Martin Shepherd wrote: Well, Roman, I can see why you upset a few people. I think mentioning lute makers or players by name, whether what you say about them is positive or negative, is just a bad idea - and arguably downright rude. If your comment is positive, someone reading it might wonder if you have an axe (sorry, no pun intended) to grind; if negative, your opinion is hard to judge and is almost inevitably biased and based on limited evidence. The price of a lute is difficult to make a judgement about. The price of new lutes is way too low - consider what a decent hand-made cello would cost! That's not because cello makers are greedy people, it's just that the price of a cello more accurately reflects the amount of work and expertise which goes into it. Even a cello maker earns less than a plumber or electrician. The price of secondhand lutes is more difficult. A good lute gets better with age, and perhaps the price should reflect that, but it's surprising how few people ask more than they paid, even if they've had the lute for a number of years. So sometimes there are excellent bargains to be had in the for sale columns. My site also has a page on buying a lute, including advice on what to look for in a secondhand lute. All the best, Martin On 15/10/2014 17:30, r.turov...@gmail.com wrote: Dear Collective Wisdom, Recently I had a few unpleasant conversations with some lute sellers, whose sales were thwarted by the advice given by me. Therefore I've decided to update and revise an old article of mine to reflect the practicalities of buying used lutes. So now I'm canvassing for ideas that can be added to it - http://polyhymnion.org/swv/theaxe.html Reply publicly! RT --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
[LUTE] Re: beginners, and practicalities of buying lutes
Oh, I do that too. And the local dude who gets these repair referrals knows who he is... However, the little jobs like nut spacing, fret replacement, even some bridge hole tweaking, and ESPECIALLY stringing/re-stringing I do myself- student's lutes go up on the padded dining room table, off go the old frets- on go the new frets, etc. Work-shop self-help is some of the lute lesson experience in my living room. Dan On 10/15/2014 11:59 AM, Martin Shepherd wrote: Dan, as you say, I specified good lutes. Age will clearly not help anything which was never any good in the first place. When we have weeded out the lutes which are simply never going to be any good, that leaves a large number (perhaps the majority) where some TLC from someone who knows what they're doing in terms of stringing, spacings, setup, fretting, peg-fitting etc will greatly improve things. That's where you should send your students. M On 15/10/2014 20:47, Dan Winheld wrote: The price of secondhand lutes is more difficult. A good lute gets better with age, and perhaps the price should reflect that... Martin, I suspect that you and I have been experiencing quite different used/old lutes. Of course, you do specify good lute; but as an active lute teacher here in Berkeley I can tell you that the instruments that my beginning players bring- or obtain out of the LSA's rental stable- weren't nearly good enough to begin with, or we need to wait a few more aeons for them to come up to par. I should be getting kickbacks from all the lutes my students have been commissioning from various builders here in North America. But you seem to see more clearly than I did the pitfalls of mentioning luthiers by name in Roman's article. For a good discussion in regard to lute/luthier pricing- with a little necessary cold water in the face- I highly reccomend (in addition to Martin's own site) Mel Wong's blog site, Black Bird String Arts: http://www.blackbirdstringarts.com/about/ Dan On 10/15/2014 11:14 AM, Martin Shepherd wrote: Well, Roman, I can see why you upset a few people. I think mentioning lute makers or players by name, whether what you say about them is positive or negative, is just a bad idea - and arguably downright rude. If your comment is positive, someone reading it might wonder if you have an axe (sorry, no pun intended) to grind; if negative, your opinion is hard to judge and is almost inevitably biased and based on limited evidence. The price of a lute is difficult to make a judgement about. The price of new lutes is way too low - consider what a decent hand-made cello would cost! That's not because cello makers are greedy people, it's just that the price of a cello more accurately reflects the amount of work and expertise which goes into it. Even a cello maker earns less than a plumber or electrician. The price of secondhand lutes is more difficult. A good lute gets better with age, and perhaps the price should reflect that, but it's surprising how few people ask more than they paid, even if they've had the lute for a number of years. So sometimes there are excellent bargains to be had in the for sale columns. My site also has a page on buying a lute, including advice on what to look for in a secondhand lute. All the best, Martin On 15/10/2014 17:30, r.turov...@gmail.com wrote: Dear Collective Wisdom, Recently I had a few unpleasant conversations with some lute sellers, whose sales were thwarted by the advice given by me. Therefore I've decided to update and revise an old article of mine to reflect the practicalities of buying used lutes. So now I'm canvassing for ideas that can be added to it - http://polyhymnion.org/swv/theaxe.html Reply publicly! RT --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
[LUTE] Re: beginners, and practicalities of buying lutes
Actually the brouhaha was mainly about the bridge width, even before I could get to the distorted swanneck curve.. I will read your advice, and incorporate whatever I can, with your indulgence. RT On 10/15/2014 2:14 PM, Martin Shepherd wrote: Well, Roman, I can see why you upset a few people. I think mentioning lute makers or players by name, whether what you say about them is positive or negative, is just a bad idea - and arguably downright rude. If your comment is positive, someone reading it might wonder if you have an axe (sorry, no pun intended) to grind; if negative, your opinion is hard to judge and is almost inevitably biased and based on limited evidence. The price of a lute is difficult to make a judgement about. The price of new lutes is way too low - consider what a decent hand-made cello would cost! That's not because cello makers are greedy people, it's just that the price of a cello more accurately reflects the amount of work and expertise which goes into it. Even a cello maker earns less than a plumber or electrician. The price of secondhand lutes is more difficult. A good lute gets better with age, and perhaps the price should reflect that, but it's surprising how few people ask more than they paid, even if they've had the lute for a number of years. So sometimes there are excellent bargains to be had in the for sale columns. My site also has a page on buying a lute, including advice on what to look for in a secondhand lute. All the best, Martin On 15/10/2014 17:30, r.turov...@gmail.com wrote: Dear Collective Wisdom, Recently I had a few unpleasant conversations with some lute sellers, whose sales were thwarted by the advice given by me. Therefore I've decided to update and revise an old article of mine to reflect the practicalities of buying used lutes. So now I'm canvassing for ideas that can be added to it - http://polyhymnion.org/swv/theaxe.html Reply publicly! RT --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: beginners, and practicalities of buying lutes
Hi Roman, Well, we've had this discussion before but I really can't agree on your minimum width for a 13-course lute. In paragraph 3 you say ' Make sure the bridge is not too narrow, ideally in the vicinity of 155mm between the 1st and the 13th course. If it measures only 145mm - stay away. Your thumb will be very sorry, and rather useless. Personally I think that 145 mm is a very comfortable spacing and anything over 150 mm quickly becomes unmanageable. Overall width is just one factor, and the distance between individual courses and the strings of each course is another. I have played a well set-up lute with a bridge space of 140 mm which felt very natural. People have different techniques and preferences so I don't think such a sweeping statement can be left unquestioned, especially when, as David Van Edwards points out, there is so much variety in historical bridge spaces. As for the action recommendations in paragraph 4, I agree that anything above 4mm at the 8th fret is to be avoided, but some very well set-up lutes can have an action as low as 2.8 mm and not buzz even when played powerfully. Here again I feel that one has to bring other factors into account such as how true the fingerboard is, it's thickness and width, how it is fretted and how the dishing is built into the soundboard. Paragraph 6 deals with the problems with swan-neck lutes. It is almost inevitable that even the best made of these models often have the upper neck pull up and twist over time, it is pretty much inherent in the design and can require remedial work (such as a new upper nut, for example). I have never heard of that pulling a bridge off though. Best Matthew On 15 oct. 2014, at 17:30, r.turov...@gmail.com r.turov...@gmail.com wrote: Dear Collective Wisdom, Recently I had a few unpleasant conversations with some lute sellers, whose sales were thwarted by the advice given by me. Therefore I've decided to update and revise an old article of mine to reflect the practicalities of buying used lutes. So now I'm canvassing for ideas that can be added to it - http://polyhymnion.org/swv/theaxe.html Reply publicly! RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: beginners, and practicalities of buying lutes
On Oct 15, 2014, at 12:39 PM, r.turov...@gmail.com wrote: Actually the brouhaha was mainly about the bridge width, even before I could get to the distorted swanneck curve.. Previous discussions indicate that there’s a lot of disagreement with your view of bridge spacing; you might want to make it clear that there are players who have different views. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: beginners, and practicalities of buying lutes
No way. I'm channeling Pat's idea/ls. RT On 10/15/2014 3:51 PM, howard posner wrote: On Oct 15, 2014, at 12:39 PM, r.turov...@gmail.com wrote: Actually the brouhaha was mainly about the bridge width, even before I could get to the distorted swanneck curve.. Previous discussions indicate that there’s a lot of disagreement with your view of bridge spacing; you might want to make it clear that there are players who have different views. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: beginners, and practicalities of buying lutes
I still distinctly remember the misery that Guy Marchand went through on a 145mm axe. The situation comes up at fairly regular intervals, so I'll stand by what I wrote. The pegbox distortion viz bridge situation was discussed with 2 reputable luthiers. RT On 10/15/2014 3:45 PM, Matthew Daillie wrote: Hi Roman, Well, we've had this discussion before but I really can't agree on your minimum width for a 13-course lute. In paragraph 3 you say ' Make sure the bridge is not too narrow, ideally in the vicinity of 155mm between the 1st and the 13th course. If it measures only 145mm - stay away. Your thumb will be very sorry, and rather useless. Personally I think that 145 mm is a very comfortable spacing and anything over 150 mm quickly becomes unmanageable. Overall width is just one factor, and the distance between individual courses and the strings of each course is another. I have played a well set-up lute with a bridge space of 140 mm which felt very natural. People have different techniques and preferences so I don't think such a sweeping statement can be left unquestioned, especially when, as David Van Edwards points out, there is so much variety in historical bridge spaces. As for the action recommendations in paragraph 4, I agree that anything above 4mm at the 8th fret is to be avoided, but some very well set-up lutes can have an action as low as 2.8 mm and not buzz even when played powerfully. Here again I feel that one has to bring other factors into account such as how true the fingerboard is, it's thickness and width, how it is fretted and how the dishing is built into the soundboard. Paragraph 6 deals with the problems with swan-neck lutes. It is almost inevitable that even the best made of these models often have the upper neck pull up and twist over time, it is pretty much inherent in the design and can require remedial work (such as a new upper nut, for example). I have never heard of that pulling a bridge off though. Best Matthew On 15 oct. 2014, at 17:30, [1]r.turov...@gmail.com [2]r.turov...@gmail.com wrote: Dear Collective Wisdom, Recently I had a few unpleasant conversations with some lute sellers, whose sales were thwarted by the advice given by me. Therefore I've decided to update and revise an old article of mine to reflect the practicalities of buying used lutes. So now I'm canvassing for ideas that can be added to it - [3]http://polyhymnion.org/swv/theaxe.html Reply publicly! RT To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:r.turov...@gmail.com 2. mailto:r.turov...@gmail.com 3. http://polyhymnion.org/swv/theaxe.html 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: beginners, and practicalities of buying lutes
Damn, I would have put money on a scenario involving a furious Papazian owner losing a $5,000 sale to a buyer that your article would have warned off. (Those things will take your left hand off at the wrist faster than a Pirhana in the bathtub if you attempt a barre chord. I speak from personal experience.) 13 course spacing at the bridge? My own Robert Lundberg original is exactly 150, on the nose. Works perfectly for me. One of my Baroque lute students (Burkholtzer copy) has about 155, feels like A Bridge too Far to me, playing 12th 13 w/thumb, top 3 courses w/ima- but preferable to too narrow. My other Baroque lute student also has a Burkholtzer copy by the same builder has a much narrower spacing, (his exact specs to the builder) too narrow for me and everyone else who has ever tried it (including Nigel North) but he is perfectly comfortable, never misses a note because of the spacing. Has large hands, too. On spacing, general guidelines yes, kind of, but a very personal thing, so YMMV. The string spacing at the bridge on the original Chambure Vihuela is apparently much too narrow for virtually anyone; both Barber-Harris Dan Larson only offer it as a cautionary option. Dan On 10/15/2014 12:51 PM, howard posner wrote: On Oct 15, 2014, at 12:39 PM, r.turov...@gmail.com wrote: Actually the brouhaha was mainly about the bridge width, even before I could get to the distorted swanneck curve.. Previous discussions indicate that there’s a lot of disagreement with your view of bridge spacing; you might want to make it clear that there are players who have different views. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: beginners, and practicalities of buying lutes
That is probably why it survived. No one could play it. RT On 10/15/2014 4:41 PM, Dan Winheld wrote: Damn, I would have put money on a scenario involving a furious Papazian owner losing a $5,000 sale to a buyer that your article would have warned off. (Those things will take your left hand off at the wrist faster than a Pirhana in the bathtub if you attempt a barre chord. I speak from personal experience.) 13 course spacing at the bridge? My own Robert Lundberg original is exactly 150, on the nose. Works perfectly for me. One of my Baroque lute students (Burkholtzer copy) has about 155, feels like A Bridge too Far to me, playing 12th 13 w/thumb, top 3 courses w/ima- but preferable to too narrow. My other Baroque lute student also has a Burkholtzer copy by the same builder has a much narrower spacing, (his exact specs to the builder) too narrow for me and everyone else who has ever tried it (including Nigel North) but he is perfectly comfortable, never misses a note because of the spacing. Has large hands, too. On spacing, general guidelines yes, kind of, but a very personal thing, so YMMV. The string spacing at the bridge on the original Chambure Vihuela is apparently much too narrow for virtually anyone; both Barber-Harris Dan Larson only offer it as a cautionary option. Dan On 10/15/2014 12:51 PM, howard posner wrote: On Oct 15, 2014, at 12:39 PM, r.turov...@gmail.com wrote: Actually the brouhaha was mainly about the bridge width, even before I could get to the distorted swanneck curve.. Previous discussions indicate that there’s a lot of disagreement with your view of bridge spacing; you might want to make it clear that there are players who have different views. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: beginners, and practicalities of buying lutes
OK, but if you’re catching flak about your remarks on bridge spacing, and you know you won’t change those remarks even to say that not everyone agrees with you about it, why are you asking for ideas? On Oct 15, 2014, at 12:58 PM, r.turov...@gmail.com wrote: No way. I'm channeling Pat's idea/ls. RT On 10/15/2014 3:51 PM, howard posner wrote: On Oct 15, 2014, at 12:39 PM, r.turov...@gmail.com wrote: Actually the brouhaha was mainly about the bridge width, even before I could get to the distorted swanneck curve.. Previous discussions indicate that there’s a lot of disagreement with your view of bridge spacing; you might want to make it clear that there are players who have different views. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: beginners, and practicalities of buying lutes
There are statistics [1]https://www.mail-archive.com/lute@cs.dartmouth.edu/msg19722.html which offer 2 possibilities - narrow ones were played with nails and/or unplayed at all. Back in the 50s and 60s when Bream was THE lutenist, the strings were almost parallel, as suited a guitarist with nails. When flesh playing became the norm in the mid 70s - the string band widened at the bridge. So there ya go... also - pure gut on narrow bridges? no way. You can't fit all that rope, never mind navigating it. I remember Pat's Burkholzer 13c which was the first baroque lute Andy Rutherford had built. It was rather narrow, bat manageable with Pyramids. A subsequent owner restrung it in all-gut and it became utterly unplayable. RT Hi Roman, Well, we've had this discussion before but I really can't agree on your minimum width for a 13-course lute. In paragraph 3 you say ' Make sure the bridge is not too narrow, ideally in the vicinity of 155mm between the 1st and the 13th course. If it measures only 145mm - stay away. Your thumb will be very sorry, and rather useless. Personally I think that 145 mm is a very comfortable spacing and anything over 150 mm quickly becomes unmanageable. Overall width is just one factor, and the distance between individual courses and the strings of each course is another. I have played a well set-up lute with a bridge space of 140 mm which felt very natural. People have different techniques and preferences so I don't think such a sweeping statement can be left unquestioned, especially when, as David Van Edwards points out, there is so much variety in historical bridge spaces. As for the action recommendations in paragraph 4, I agree that anything above 4mm at the 8th fret is to be avoided, but some very well set-up lutes can have an action as low as 2.8 mm and not buzz even when played powerfully. Here again I feel that one has to bring other factors into account such as how true the fingerboard is, it's thickness and width, how it is fretted and how the dishing is built into the soundboard. Paragraph 6 deals with the problems with swan-neck lutes. It is almost inevitable that even the best made of these models often have the upper neck pull up and twist over time, it is pretty much inherent in the design and can require remedial work (such as a new upper nut, for example). I have never heard of that pulling a bridge off though. Best Matthew On 15 oct. 2014, at 17:30, [2]r.turov...@gmail.com [3]r.turov...@gmail.com wrote: Dear Collective Wisdom, Recently I had a few unpleasant conversations with some lute sellers, whose sales were thwarted by the advice given by me. Therefore I've decided to update and revise an old article of mine to reflect the practicalities of buying used lutes. So now I'm canvassing for ideas that can be added to it - [4]http://polyhymnion.org/swv/theaxe.html Reply publicly! RT To get on or off this list see list information at [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. https://www.mail-archive.com/lute@cs.dartmouth.edu/msg19722.html 2. mailto:r.turov...@gmail.com 3. mailto:r.turov...@gmail.com 4. http://polyhymnion.org/swv/theaxe.html 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: beginners, and practicalities of buying lutes
That's funny! As probably the only extant Papazian lute owner/player in the world today (possible?) I beg to differ. It isn't that hard to play, my only complaint is it was hard to find strings, and with a 64cm string length, the tension is awfully high on the trebles, making subtle tuning of the top courses very difficult. I get far more discomfort from tuning it than playing it! Doesn't sound all that bad:A [1]http://charlesmokotoff.com/misc/lute/willoughby.wav On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 4:41 PM, Dan Winheld [2]dwinh...@lmi.net wrote: Damn, I would have put money on a scenario involving a furious Papazian owner losing a $5,000 sale to a buyer that your article would have warned off. (Those things will take your left hand off at the wrist faster than a Pirhana in the bathtub if you attempt a barre chord. I speak from personal experience.) 13 course spacing at the bridge? My own Robert Lundberg original is exactly 150, on the nose. Works perfectly for me. One of my Baroque lute students (Burkholtzer copy) has about 155, feels like A Bridge too Far to me, playing 12th 13 w/thumb, top 3 courses w/ima- but preferable to too narrow. My other Baroque lute student also has a Burkholtzer copy by the same builder has a much narrower spacing, (his exact specs to the builder) too narrow for me and everyone else who has ever tried it (including Nigel North) but he is perfectly comfortable, never misses a note because of the spacing. Has large hands, too. On spacing, general guidelines yes, kind of, but a very personal thing, so YMMV. The string spacing at the bridge on the original Chambure Vihuela is apparently much too narrow for virtually anyone; both Barber-Harris Dan Larson only offer it as a cautionary option. Dan On 10/15/2014 12:51 PM, howard posner wrote: On Oct 15, 2014, at 12:39 PM, [3]r.turov...@gmail.com wrote: Actually the brouhaha was mainly about the bridge width, even before I could get to the distorted swanneck curve.. Previous discussions indicate that there's a lot of disagreement with your view of bridge spacing; you might want to make it clear that there are players who have different views. To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://charlesmokotoff.com/misc/lute/willoughby.wav 2. mailto:dwinh...@lmi.net 3. mailto:r.turov...@gmail.com 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: beginners, and practicalities of buying lutes
Hear, hear! On Oct 15, 2014, at 22:50, howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com wrote: OK, but if you’re catching flak about your remarks on bridge spacing, and you know you won’t change those remarks even to say that not everyone agrees with you about it, why are you asking for ideas? On Oct 15, 2014, at 12:58 PM, r.turov...@gmail.com wrote: No way. I'm channeling Pat's idea/ls. RT On 10/15/2014 3:51 PM, howard posner wrote: On Oct 15, 2014, at 12:39 PM, r.turov...@gmail.com wrote: Actually the brouhaha was mainly about the bridge width, even before I could get to the distorted swanneck curve.. Previous discussions indicate that there’s a lot of disagreement with your view of bridge spacing; you might want to make it clear that there are players who have different views. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: beginners, and practicalities of buying lutes
Huh? All the players I respect tend to have wider bridges, and Pat's own Jauck-Rutherford was even 157 mm. My 155 was copied from Barto's. Sent from my iPhone On Oct 15, 2014, at 5:37 PM, Matthew Daillie dail...@club-internet.fr wrote: Hear, hear! On Oct 15, 2014, at 22:50, howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com wrote: OK, but if you’re catching flak about your remarks on bridge spacing, and you know you won’t change those remarks even to say that not everyone agrees with you about it, why are you asking for ideas? On Oct 15, 2014, at 12:58 PM, r.turov...@gmail.com wrote: No way. I'm channeling Pat's idea/ls. RT On 10/15/2014 3:51 PM, howard posner wrote: On Oct 15, 2014, at 12:39 PM, r.turov...@gmail.com wrote: Actually the brouhaha was mainly about the bridge width, even before I could get to the distorted swanneck curve.. Previous discussions indicate that there’s a lot of disagreement with your view of bridge spacing; you might want to make it clear that there are players who have different views. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: beginners, and practicalities of buying lutes
Hey! Not bad at all; very good sound (given computer recording circumstances) good playing, ornaments too. I would suggest backing off the tempo a couple clicks, sounds a little bit rushed (can't make the old lute teacher keep his mouth shut, sorry!) You must have a left hand like a vise. I could probably use you to open a few jars around here now and then... I visited Manouk Papazian in his New York shop all those years ago (1965 or 66), the instruments weren't that bad except that I couldn't begin to fret them- ended up with a much more playable 9 course from David Rubio- but still it was a bone saddle, metal fret, higher-than-historic string tension compromise. If the instrument still means a lot to you, you might consider the latest generation of mechanical planetary gear pegs. Your instrument may be the perfect candidate for those things. Dan On 10/15/2014 2:25 PM, Charles Mokotoff wrote: That's funny! As probably the only extant Papazian lute owner/player in the world today (possible?) I beg to differ. It isn't that hard to play, my only complaint is it was hard to find strings, and with a 64cm string length, the tension is awfully high on the trebles, making subtle tuning of the top courses very difficult. I get far more discomfort from tuning it than playing it! Doesn't sound all that bad:A [1]http://charlesmokotoff.com/misc/lute/willoughby.wav On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 4:41 PM, Dan Winheld [2]dwinh...@lmi.net wrote: Damn, I would have put money on a scenario involving a furious Papazian owner losing a $5,000 sale to a buyer that your article would have warned off. (Those things will take your left hand off at the wrist faster than a Pirhana in the bathtub if you attempt a barre chord. I speak from personal experience.) 13 course spacing at the bridge? My own Robert Lundberg original is exactly 150, on the nose. Works perfectly for me. One of my Baroque lute students (Burkholtzer copy) has about 155, feels like A Bridge too Far to me, playing 12th 13 w/thumb, top 3 courses w/ima- but preferable to too narrow. My other Baroque lute student also has a Burkholtzer copy by the same builder has a much narrower spacing, (his exact specs to the builder) too narrow for me and everyone else who has ever tried it (including Nigel North) but he is perfectly comfortable, never misses a note because of the spacing. Has large hands, too. On spacing, general guidelines yes, kind of, but a very personal thing, so YMMV. The string spacing at the bridge on the original Chambure Vihuela is apparently much too narrow for virtually anyone; both Barber-Harris Dan Larson only offer it as a cautionary option. Dan On 10/15/2014 12:51 PM, howard posner wrote: On Oct 15, 2014, at 12:39 PM, [3]r.turov...@gmail.com wrote: Actually the brouhaha was mainly about the bridge width, even before I could get to the distorted swanneck curve.. Previous discussions indicate that there's a lot of disagreement with your view of bridge spacing; you might want to make it clear that there are players who have different views. To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://charlesmokotoff.com/misc/lute/willoughby.wav 2. mailto:dwinh...@lmi.net 3. mailto:r.turov...@gmail.com 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: beginners, and practicalities of buying lutes
On 2014-10-15, 6:36 PM, Dan Winheld wrote: I visited Manouk Papazian in his New York shop all those years ago (1965 or 66), the instruments weren't that bad except that I couldn't begin to fret them- ended up with a much more playable 9 course from David Rubio- but still it was a bone saddle, metal fret, higher-than-historic string tension compromise. That sounds a bit like my first lute, which was one of the first Mike Schreiner built when he was still working in Larrivee's workshop...in fact it had Larrivee's label inside it. It started out as a 10-course, but Mike rebuilt as an 8-course, shaving away a lot of the wood inside in the process. Then my teacher told me he had a guitar student interested in buying a lute, and that this would probably be my last chance to sell it for a decent price. I replaced it with one of Mike's 7-course Veneres, which is still serving me well today. Geoff -- Geoff Gaherty Foxmead Observatory Coldwater, Ontario, Canada http://www.gaherty.ca http://starrynightskyevents.blogspot.com/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: beginners, and practicalities of buying lutes - bridge spacing
If one plays several instruments, having them similar might be a consideration for bridge spacing. Bream had his lute the same scale as his guitar, I believe. My Ren lute is my main instrument. I have no problem with my right hand when playing my archlute because the spacing is not that different on the top 7 strings from my Ren lute, but I never have gotten comfortable with my Baroque lute because I always hit the 6th string when I intend to hit the 5th. Well not always, but the spacing is so narrow I have to play it exclusively for some time to get used to it. On the archlute, I dont mind the narrow spacing of the lower 7, but of course they are single. I think different people are going to have different choices with spacing and people can adapt to narrow or wide spacing. It may take time. I had my archlute spacing narrowed because I simply could not hit certain notes together. However, I think if I would have hung on another year or two, I might have gotten used to stretching more. Also, looking at some of the narrow vihuela and lute spacings in pictures makes me really wonder about what R.H. techniques were in use. On Oct 16, 2014, at 5:41 AM, Dan Winheld dwinh...@lmi.net wrote: Damn, I would have put money on a scenario involving a furious Papazian owner losing a $5,000 sale to a buyer that your article would have warned off. (Those things will take your left hand off at the wrist faster than a Pirhana in the bathtub if you attempt a barre chord. I speak from personal experience.) 13 course spacing at the bridge? My own Robert Lundberg original is exactly 150, on the nose. Works perfectly for me. One of my Baroque lute students (Burkholtzer copy) has about 155, feels like A Bridge too Far to me, playing 12th 13 w/thumb, top 3 courses w/ima- but preferable to too narrow. My other Baroque lute student also has a Burkholtzer copy by the same builder has a much narrower spacing, (his exact specs to the builder) too narrow for me and everyone else who has ever tried it (including Nigel North) but he is perfectly comfortable, never misses a note because of the spacing. Has large hands, too. On spacing, general guidelines yes, kind of, but a very personal thing, so YMMV. The string spacing at the bridge on the original Chambure Vihuela is apparently much too narrow for virtually anyone; both Barber-Harris Dan Larson only offer it as a cautionary option. Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch https://soundcloud.com/ed-durbrow http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: beginners, and practicalities of buying lutes
I asked the point of asking for ideas if you’ve already decided you’re not going to change the thing you’re asking ideas about, even to acknowledge that some players disagree with you. On Oct 15, 2014, at 2:46 PM, r.turov...@gmail.com wrote: Huh? All the players I respect tend to have wider bridges, and Pat's own Jauck-Rutherford was even 157 mm. My 155 was copied from Barto's. The players you respect aren’t the ones reading your remarks for beginners. If you mean to say “I shouldn’t acknowledge that anyone disagrees with me, because I’m right,” then I still wonder why you’ve asked anyone else’s opinion. On a less contentious note, an editing idea: the possessive “its” has no apostrophe. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
