Re: [MeeGo-dev] Future of hildon?
On Thu, 2010-06-17 at 15:53 +0300, Carsten Munk wrote: How it looks, if it works, I don't know, but it should be something that people can start using to see what is possible regarding Hildon on stock GTK+ and MeeGo. More like a proof of concept. Hildon version is 2.2.19. Here[1] are some screen shots of running a GTK+ application (xfce4-about) on MeeGo/Handset. If mcompositor and mdecorator are both running, I'm only getting a blank screen. Disabling one of both gives some results. If anyone has an idea, why the screen goes black, please let me know. Do we need something like run-standalone.sh? When starting the GTK+ application, I'm not getting any extra error/warning messages and as soon as I kill it, the black screen goes away and MeeGo reappears. Thoughts? Ideas? Thanks! Conny [1] http://zwong.de/?p=78 ___ MeeGo-dev mailing list MeeGo-dev@meego.com http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev
Re: [MeeGo-dev] Future of hildon?
Hello Can you send me links or steps how you build your own app for Meego and how you managed to put it inside device ? ( Totally unrelated to your question ) -Rakesh On Sun, Jul 4, 2010 at 3:04 PM, Cornelius Hald h...@icandy.de wrote: On Thu, 2010-06-17 at 15:53 +0300, Carsten Munk wrote: How it looks, if it works, I don't know, but it should be something that people can start using to see what is possible regarding Hildon on stock GTK+ and MeeGo. More like a proof of concept. Hildon version is 2.2.19. Here[1] are some screen shots of running a GTK+ application (xfce4-about) on MeeGo/Handset. If mcompositor and mdecorator are both running, I'm only getting a blank screen. Disabling one of both gives some results. If anyone has an idea, why the screen goes black, please let me know. Do we need something like run-standalone.sh? When starting the GTK+ application, I'm not getting any extra error/warning messages and as soon as I kill it, the black screen goes away and MeeGo reappears. Thoughts? Ideas? Thanks! Conny [1] http://zwong.de/?p=78 ___ MeeGo-dev mailing list MeeGo-dev@meego.com http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev ___ MeeGo-dev mailing list MeeGo-dev@meego.com http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev
Re: [MeeGo-dev] Future of hildon?
On Sun, 2010-07-04 at 14:04 +0200, Cornelius Hald wrote: On Thu, 2010-06-17 at 15:53 +0300, Carsten Munk wrote: How it looks, if it works, I don't know, but it should be something that people can start using to see what is possible regarding Hildon on stock GTK+ and MeeGo. More like a proof of concept. Hildon version is 2.2.19. Here[1] are some screen shots of running a GTK+ application (xfce4-about) on MeeGo/Handset. If mcompositor and mdecorator are both running, I'm only getting a blank screen. Disabling one of both gives some results. If anyone has an idea, why the screen goes black, please let me know. Do we need something like run-standalone.sh? When starting the GTK+ application, I'm not getting any extra error/warning messages and as soon as I kill it, the black screen goes away and MeeGo reappears. Thoughts? Ideas? Just one more thing: I tried setting the _NET_WM_WINDOW_TYPE X property of xfce4-about to match that of meegophotos. But the screen is still black. I've used this command: xprop -id 0x181 -f _NET_WM_WINDOW_TYPE 32a -set _NET_WM_WINDOW_TYPE _KDE_NET_WM_WINDOW_TYPE_OVERRIDE, _NET_WM_WINDOW_TYPE_NORMAL, _MEEGOTOUCH_NET_WM_WINDOW_TYPE_MAPPLICATION Cheers, Conny ___ MeeGo-dev mailing list MeeGo-dev@meego.com http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev
Re: [MeeGo-dev] Future of hildon?
On Sun, 2010-07-04 at 15:29 +0300, Rakesh Cherian wrote: Hello Can you send me links or steps how you build your own app for Meego and how you managed to put it inside device ? ( Totally unrelated to your question ) I didn't build my own app for MeeGo and I didn't install anything on my device. I've just set up an development environment on my PC by following this guide: http://wiki.meego.com/Building_a_MeeGo_chroot_on_Linux Cheers, Conny ___ MeeGo-dev mailing list MeeGo-dev@meego.com http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev
Re: [MeeGo-dev] Future of hildon?
2010/5/23 Till Harbaum / Lists li...@harbaum.org: Hi, being one of the people that have written gtk/hildon apps for maemo, i'd like to understand if there's a future for hildon in meego at all. There doesn't seem to be an official roadmap. Some intel guys claimed that Nokia wanted to drop support for gtk/hildon completely and that at least gtk is there on request by intel. But i don't fully understand the idea of having a gtk without hildon on these devices. If there's one thing learned from the fact that maemo also supports legacy gtk, then it's that these apps just look plain ugly and are basically unusable. So is there some plan to include hildon into meego? Is there any future for all those existing maemo hildon apps? Because it's cheap to talk and actual code is better... Based on Claudio's patches in https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4605 and old Fedora packaging, I've made a rather ugly .spec file and some patches that seems to build Hildon library against stock GTK. How it looks, if it works, I don't know, but it should be something that people can start using to see what is possible regarding Hildon on stock GTK+ and MeeGo. More like a proof of concept. Hildon version is 2.2.19. Patches and .spec, and i586 rpms against MeeGo trunk on http://stskeeps.subnetmask.net/hildon-meego/ along with build log http://stskeeps.subnetmask.net/hildon-meego/rawlog A question for the Hildon crowd - are you willing to accept that patches might have to be made to move Hildon apps to MeeGo? To fit with stock GTK+ for instance. Best regards, Carsten Munk maemo.org distmaster ___ MeeGo-dev mailing list MeeGo-dev@meego.com http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev
Re: [MeeGo-dev] Future of hildon?
On Thu, 2010-06-17 at 15:53 +0300, Carsten Munk wrote: 2010/5/23 Till Harbaum / Lists li...@harbaum.org: Hi, being one of the people that have written gtk/hildon apps for maemo, i'd like to understand if there's a future for hildon in meego at all. There doesn't seem to be an official roadmap. Some intel guys claimed that Nokia wanted to drop support for gtk/hildon completely and that at least gtk is there on request by intel. But i don't fully understand the idea of having a gtk without hildon on these devices. If there's one thing learned from the fact that maemo also supports legacy gtk, then it's that these apps just look plain ugly and are basically unusable. So is there some plan to include hildon into meego? Is there any future for all those existing maemo hildon apps? Because it's cheap to talk and actual code is better... Awesome :) I'll have a look at it as soon as I can. Would it be possible to also post this on the gnome mobile-devel list? Or should I maybe forward it there? Because the discussion has somehow moved there: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/mobile-devel-list/2010-June/thread.html It would be great to have _one_ place for this discussion... Cheers, Conny ___ MeeGo-dev mailing list MeeGo-dev@meego.com http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev
Re: [MeeGo-dev] Future of hildon?
On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 2:53 PM, Carsten Munk cars...@maemo.org wrote: 2010/5/23 Till Harbaum / Lists li...@harbaum.org: Hi, being one of the people that have written gtk/hildon apps for maemo, i'd like to understand if there's a future for hildon in meego at all. There doesn't seem to be an official roadmap. Some intel guys claimed that Nokia wanted to drop support for gtk/hildon completely and that at least gtk is there on request by intel. But i don't fully understand the idea of having a gtk without hildon on these devices. If there's one thing learned from the fact that maemo also supports legacy gtk, then it's that these apps just look plain ugly and are basically unusable. So is there some plan to include hildon into meego? Is there any future for all those existing maemo hildon apps? Because it's cheap to talk and actual code is better... Based on Claudio's patches in https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4605 and old Fedora packaging, I've made a rather ugly .spec file and some patches that seems to build Hildon library against stock GTK. How it looks, if it works, I don't know, but it should be something that people can start using to see what is possible regarding Hildon on stock GTK+ and MeeGo. More like a proof of concept. Hildon version is 2.2.19. Patches and .spec, and i586 rpms against MeeGo trunk on http://stskeeps.subnetmask.net/hildon-meego/ along with build log http://stskeeps.subnetmask.net/hildon-meego/rawlog A question for the Hildon crowd - are you willing to accept that patches might have to be made to move Hildon apps to MeeGo? To fit with stock GTK+ for instance. Best regards, Carsten Munk maemo.org distmaster ___ MeeGo-dev mailing list MeeGo-dev@meego.com http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev Thanks a lot for your effort Carsten! I'll certainly prefer to make some patches to my projects to make them work (to what extent? We'll see!) in MeeGo then rewrite them from scratch in Qt (sometimes doing that would not be possible / practical at all - let's think about porting of existing gtk apps). -- Luca Donaggio ___ MeeGo-dev mailing list MeeGo-dev@meego.com http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev
Re: [MeeGo-dev] Future of hildon?
Hi, Am Donnerstag 17 Juni 2010 schrieb Carsten Munk: A question for the Hildon crowd - are you willing to accept that patches might have to be made to move Hildon apps to MeeGo? To fit with stock GTK+ for instance. A definitive yes from me! Thanks for your work, Till ___ MeeGo-dev mailing list MeeGo-dev@meego.com http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev
Re: [MeeGo-dev] Future of hildon?
On Tue, 2010-05-25 at 00:38 +0200, ext Alberto Garcia wrote: On Mon, May 24, 2010 at 04:22:42PM +0200, Dave Neary wrote: Let me ask the question this way (re. what Alberto wrote earlier): if I used Hildon on top of a stock upstream GTK+, what would be broken? If the answer is not much, then as Arjen (almost) said: Sounds perfect for the community repository. Well, code-wise, not much. Hildon itself doesn't depend much on features specific to Maemo-GTK (save for a few quirks already mentioned by Javier Jardón). In fact Debian has been distributing a version of Hildon from Maemo 5 for some time now (http://packages.debian.org/sid/libhildon-1-0). So making an app that requires a recent Hildon compile and run against upstream GTK+ is not terribly difficult. The main problem is making those apps behave properly :) There are some interactions such as stackable windows or menus that depend on specific hildon-desktop features. As I said, these stackable windows could be implemented in the toolkit side using ConfigureRequests (the WM respects those, unlike in Fremantle). What comes to the sliding window animations, those will be supported in Harmattan at least (possibly a window property points to a pixmap that is used for the animation). The input method seems the biggest obstacle, and that could require some adapter for GTK+ applications, I don't know. -Kimmo Also, some widgets are designed specifically for the N900, and while they may work and have a reasonable API they should probably be redesigned/modified to be more general. Berto ___ MeeGo-dev mailing list MeeGo-dev@meego.com http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev ___ MeeGo-dev mailing list MeeGo-dev@meego.com http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev
Re: [MeeGo-dev] Future of hildon?
On Mon, 2010-05-24 at 08:48 +0300, Quim Gil wrote: I also wonder what is the real status of this community support, and the willingness of the current Hildon and/or GTK+ maintainers and developers to bring Hildon and Hildon based applications to the MeeGo community repositories. Yea, that would be interesting. I don't know it either, but I expect it to be basically non-existent and probably for a good reason. I don't think it makes sense to work at Harmattan's Hildon before we know how the Harmattan UI will look and (more important) work. That's probably not really a technical problem, but more a motivational problem. No one wants to work on something before he can estimate the success of his effort and it might be that integrating Hildon with the Harmattan UI is just not feasible. What I think will happen is this: At some point people with big Maemo5/Hildon applications will get a Harmattan device or SDK and then they will try to get their applications running. Therefore they will compile a recent version of GTk, try to apply Hildon patches, etc. At that point we will see whether or not it is feasible to bring Hildon to Harmattan. Well, at least if it is a _real_ community effort. If however Nokia did sponsor some Gtk developers and provided them with some Harmattan UI material it might look differently. There has been some discussion about this at GNOME's mobile-devel-list but honestly I had expected a more concrete or articulated answer by now. See the whole What would you do to encourage application developers on GNOME Mobile? discussion starting at http://mail.gnome.org/archives/mobile-devel-list/2010-April/msg3.html and even my own post back in February that got basically no traction from anybody involved in GTK+ development - http://mail.gnome.org/archives/mobile-devel-list/2010-February/msg00010.html It would have been nice to inform people on the maemo-devel list about those posts. Nokia gave a substantial fund to the GNOME Foundation with the main goal of promoting GTK+ based applications for Maemo 5 and also to help building a future path for them in future releases - now in practice MeeGo Handset UX releases. There is still not a concrete plan for that budget that I know, which is not, er, optimal considering how fast time passes both for Maemo 5 and MeeGo. If we had been informed, maybe we could have made some suggestions. But yea, if it's still not decided what should happen with that money it is a real shame. Conclusion: if you think that we as Nokia still could to do something else to ease the transition of Hildon based applications to MeeGo please let me know. That might now be the job of the Gnome Foundation and not of Nokia. But this is what I think should happen. 1.) Provide people with some time and/or money to bring all Gtk changes that are needed for Hildon upstream into the real Gtk. 2.) Let them make sure that the current Maemo5-Hildon compiles against that new Gtk. 3.) Give them insight into the Harmattan UI spec, to make it possible to adapt the look and feel. Personally, I really really want to have Hildon on MeeGo. Not because I think it's the future or that it is superior to Qt. No, simply because it would be so frustrating to see my volunteering work of over a year go into oblivion. If I had the time (3-4 month full time), I would rewrite my application using Qt. Unfortunately this is completely unrealistic. Still hoping for Hildon on Meego! Conny ___ MeeGo-dev mailing list MeeGo-dev@meego.com http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev
Re: [MeeGo-dev] Future of hildon?
Hi, ext Cornelius Hald wrote: I don't know it either, but I expect it to be basically non-existent and probably for a good reason. I don't think it makes sense to work at Harmattan's Hildon before we know how the Harmattan UI will look and (more important) work. That's probably not really a technical problem, but more a motivational problem. (...) What I think will happen is this: At some point people with big Maemo5/Hildon applications will get a Harmattan device or SDK and then they will try to get their applications running. Therefore they will compile a recent version of GTk, try to apply Hildon patches, etc. I see your point. However, your motivational path is simpler if you focus on the public MeeGo Handset UX and compatible devices (coming soon) instead of waiting for the mysterious Harmattan device from Nokia. At that point we will see whether or not it is feasible to bring Hildon to Harmattan. Well, at least if it is a _real_ community effort. If however Nokia did sponsor some Gtk developers and provided them with some Harmattan UI material it might look differently. At least from a theoretical point of view it made sense to work out the support for GTK+ and Hildon related activities with the GNOME Foundation, since it's an organization able to invoice that has the overall responsibility of the GNOME and GNOME Mobile projects. The fund given to them should be enough to kickstart the work and more. There has been some discussion about this at GNOME's mobile-devel-list but honestly I had expected a more concrete or articulated answer by now. See the whole What would you do to encourage application developers on GNOME Mobile? discussion starting at http://mail.gnome.org/archives/mobile-devel-list/2010-April/msg3.html and even my own post back in February that got basically no traction from anybody involved in GTK+ development - http://mail.gnome.org/archives/mobile-devel-list/2010-February/msg00010.html It would have been nice to inform people on the maemo-devel list about those posts. True, my fault. Maybe I was too optimistic at that time about Hildon/GTK+ maintainers taking the ball and moving forward, or at least showing interest and asking the right questions to proceed. There was also http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=36687 and this was discussed elsewhere in the Maemo community as well (can't remember now exactly where). But no post to maemo-developers, true. Then again, the GNOME project is where the GTK+/Hildon hackers are supposed to be found. I'm sure the maintainers and related developers that actually have the skills and potentially the interest of doing something like the topic discussed here were aware of these posts. That might now be the job of the Gnome Foundation and not of Nokia. But this is what I think should happen. 1.) Provide people with some time and/or money to bring all Gtk changes that are needed for Hildon upstream into the real Gtk. 2.) Let them make sure that the current Maemo5-Hildon compiles against that new Gtk. 3.) Give them insight into the Harmattan UI spec, to make it possible to adapt the look and feel. The bal is now in the GNOME Foundation's field. Our fund went there with a proposal/recommendation of the types of activities to do, but it is now their budget and their decision. Personally, I really really want to have Hildon on MeeGo. Not because I think it's the future or that it is superior to Qt. No, simply because it would be so frustrating to see my volunteering work of over a year go into oblivion. If I had the time (3-4 month full time), I would rewrite my application using Qt. Unfortunately this is completely unrealistic. Still hoping for Hildon on Meego! Having an evolutionary path for GTK+ Maemo 5 apps into MeeGo Handset (and touch friendly UXs in general) makes total sense, and this is why we are here (and in gnome.org) discussing in these terms. -- Quim Gil open source advocate MeeGo Devices @ Nokia ___ MeeGo-dev mailing list MeeGo-dev@meego.com http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev
Re: [MeeGo-dev] Future of hildon?
On Mon, 2010-05-24 at 11:38 +0300, Quim Gil wrote: I see your point. However, your motivational path is simpler if you focus on the public MeeGo Handset UX and compatible devices (coming soon) instead of waiting for the mysterious Harmattan device from Nokia. Good to know, I was expecting it to be the other way around. Probably because we're talking about Harmattan for almost a year now ;) I'm expecting more activity around Hildon/MeeGo once the first SDK including the UX is released. At least from a theoretical point of view it made sense to work out the support for GTK+ and Hildon related activities with the GNOME Foundation, since it's an organization able to invoice that has the overall responsibility of the GNOME and GNOME Mobile projects. The fund given to them should be enough to kickstart the work and more. Agreed, although I have no experiences how effective their work is. Open-Source decision processes are not really the fasted one... It would have been nice to inform people on the maemo-devel list about those posts. True, my fault. Maybe I was too optimistic at that time about Hildon/GTK+ maintainers taking the ball and moving forward, or at least showing interest and asking the right questions to proceed. It looks like they (Igalia) are busy with something else. And people outside the Maemo sphere are just not interested in Hildon. There was also http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=36687 and this was discussed elsewhere in the Maemo community as well (can't remember now exactly where). But no post to maemo-developers, true. Alright, subscribed. Then again, the GNOME project is where the GTK+/Hildon hackers are supposed to be found. I'm sure the maintainers and related developers that actually have the skills and potentially the interest of doing something like the topic discussed here were aware of these posts. [...] The bal is now in the GNOME Foundation's field. Our fund went there with a proposal/recommendation of the types of activities to do, but it is now their budget and their decision. [...] Having an evolutionary path for GTK+ Maemo 5 apps into MeeGo Handset (and touch friendly UXs in general) makes total sense, and this is why we are here (and in gnome.org) discussing in these terms. Alright, if I find some time, I'll subscribe to the gnome list and try to get this thread rolling again. Thanks for all your input :) Conny ___ MeeGo-dev mailing list MeeGo-dev@meego.com http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev
Re: [MeeGo-dev] Future of hildon?
I also wonder what is the real status of this community support, and the willingness of the current Hildon and/or GTK+ maintainers and developers to bring Hildon and Hildon based applications to the MeeGo community repositories. There has been some discussion about this at GNOME's mobile-devel-list but honestly I had expected a more concrete or articulated answer by now. See the whole What would you do to encourage application developers on GNOME Mobile? discussion starting at http://mail.gnome.org/archives/mobile-devel-list/2010-April/msg3.html and even my own post back in February that got basically no traction from anybody involved in GTK+ development - http://mail.gnome.org/archives/mobile-devel-list/2010-February/msg00010.html just to clarify; GNOME Mobile is not part of MeeGo really (although on the netbook, we've borrowed some components for the UI implementation), and nobody should depend on this being there for app development for MeeGo. Use Qt for that. ___ MeeGo-dev mailing list MeeGo-dev@meego.com http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev
Re: [MeeGo-dev] Future of hildon?
On Mon, 2010-05-24 at 11:59 +0200, ext Graham Cobb wrote: On Monday 24 May 2010 10:31:32 Arjan van de Ven wrote: just to clarify; GNOME Mobile is not part of MeeGo really (although on the netbook, we've borrowed some components for the UI implementation), and nobody should depend on this being there for app development for MeeGo. Use Qt for that. Of course, new apps should be built using Qt. I am fine with GTK+ not being part of the MeeGo platform but I think it unlikely it will not be available for apps which want it (ported by the community). Personally, I plan to make the GPE apps available in case anyone wants them and will build GTK (and other libraries, although not necessarily Hildon) myself if necessary. In fact, my interest tends to be mainly in porting existing apps (and libs) rather than development of new ones. What I will be really interested to find out is how usable a GTK app is with the handheld UX (without Hildon). It will depend quite a lot on the window manager and Home screen (task launcher probably uses .desktop files and there were some custom key-value pairs in Fremantle). I don't expect lot of problems from the window management side, except that Hildon stackable windows are probably not fully supported, unless some compensating work (e.g. using configure requests instead of relying on the WM) is done in libhildon. -Kimmo Graham ___ MeeGo-dev mailing list MeeGo-dev@meego.com http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev ___ MeeGo-dev mailing list MeeGo-dev@meego.com http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev
Re: [MeeGo-dev] Future of hildon?
On May 24, 2010, at 12:59 PM, ext Graham Cobb wrote: On Monday 24 May 2010 10:31:32 Arjan van de Ven wrote: just to clarify; GNOME Mobile is not part of MeeGo really (although on the netbook, we've borrowed some components for the UI implementation), and nobody should depend on this being there for app development for MeeGo. Use Qt for that. Of course, new apps should be built using Qt. I am fine with GTK+ not being part of the MeeGo platform but I think it unlikely it will not be available for apps which want it (ported by the community). Personally, I plan to make the GPE apps available in case anyone wants them and will build GTK (and other libraries, although not necessarily Hildon) myself if necessary. In fact, my interest tends to be mainly in porting existing apps (and libs) rather than development of new ones. What I will be really interested to find out is how usable a GTK app is with the handheld UX (without Hildon). As general view, plain applications made with plain desktop UI toolkit will have very poor usability in mobile device. Usage paradigm with touchscreen and finger is so different than in desktop with mouse. Good examples using kinetic finger scroll from content pane and not scroll bars. Some things won't work at all, as example input method needs tight integration with text input widgets. If you would like to get even moderate usability with GTK+ applications you need Hildon but you can't get hildon without porting from Maemo 5. Input method is different and some Maemo5 features like stacked windows needs support from window manager. Kate ___ MeeGo-dev mailing list MeeGo-dev@meego.com http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev
Re: [MeeGo-dev] Future of hildon?
On Monday 24 May 2010 11:43:25 kate.alh...@nokia.com wrote: As general view, plain applications made with plain desktop UI toolkit will have very poor usability in mobile device. Usage paradigm with touchscreen and finger is so different than in desktop with mouse. Thanks, Kate. Those are good points. In the case of GPE the apps are already designed to be usable on a handheld, but with a stylus rather than fingers. My assumption is that GTK apps will never be able to provide the same look and feel as the Qt-based handheld UX, that good finger friendly behaviour will be hard to achieve (whether by using Hildon or just implementing it in the app), but that stylus usage will probably be fairly straightforward. Text input may be an issue -- it probably depends whether an on-screen keyboard is available which will act as a standard input method or whether it is bound up with Qt widgets. Graham ___ MeeGo-dev mailing list MeeGo-dev@meego.com http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev
Re: [MeeGo-dev] Future of hildon?
Hi Cornelius, (putting my GNOME cap on for this post) Cornelius Hald wrote: On Mon, 2010-05-24 at 08:48 +0300, Quim Gil wrote: See the whole What would you do to encourage application developers on GNOME Mobile? discussion starting at http://mail.gnome.org/archives/mobile-devel-list/2010-April/msg3.html and even my own post back in February that got basically no traction from anybody involved in GTK+ development - http://mail.gnome.org/archives/mobile-devel-list/2010-February/msg00010.html It would have been nice to inform people on the maemo-devel list about those posts. I would encourage anyone interested in Hildon or GTK+ on mobile development to sign up to mobile-devel-list - as Quim has (obtusely) pointed out, there are not that many platform developers on there, which makes deciding things like how to spend money more difficult (for information, the GNOME board has been discussing this for a couple of weeks, based on that discussion, and will be making a proposal soon). Also, as I think Quim knows, there are no GTK+ developers on that list - to reach them, if that was his goal, he would have needed to post to gtk-devel-l...@gnome.org Nokia gave a substantial fund to the GNOME Foundation with the main goal of promoting GTK+ based applications for Maemo 5 and also to help building a future path for them in future releases - now in practice MeeGo Handset UX releases. There is still not a concrete plan for that budget that I know, which is not, er, optimal considering how fast time passes both for Maemo 5 and MeeGo. If we had been informed, maybe we could have made some suggestions. But yea, if it's still not decided what should happen with that money it is a real shame. It's certainly not too late! Head over there pipe up now. One of the difficulties is that the request is so broad that it is difficult to know what is expected at the end (and, after all, any donation should somehow be used in a way which satisfies the donor) - encourage application developers on GNOME Mobile could be supporting Hildon, or integrating Hildon into GTK+, it could be (as I suggested in that thread) promoting the development of applications on the platform, or providing better developer tools for the platform, or trying to identify platform gaps preventing application developers working to fill those gaps with small sponsored internships (like Summer of Code), or improving the application on ARM, it could even be doing some kind of marketing program or running an application development competition. What it fundamentally comes down to is that choices need to be made, €50,000 is a nice amount of money, but you can't do everything with it, and so you need to brainstorm potential solutions, and then have someone make a choice, and the people empowered to choose were not necessarily involved in the thread Quim pointed out. 1.) Provide people with some time and/or money to bring all Gtk changes that are needed for Hildon upstream into the real Gtk. 2.) Let them make sure that the current Maemo5-Hildon compiles against that new Gtk. 3.) Give them insight into the Harmattan UI spec, to make it possible to adapt the look and feel. Please do make these suggestions upstream. However, I would point out that €50,000 might not go as far as you would think on working down this list. It is, for example, about 10 or 12 man-months of good engineer's time - so provide some people wite time and/or money might mean 3 people for 3 months, and your money is gone. Personally, I really really want to have Hildon on MeeGo. Not because I think it's the future or that it is superior to Qt. No, simply because it would be so frustrating to see my volunteering work of over a year go into oblivion. If I had the time (3-4 month full time), I would rewrite my application using Qt. Unfortunately this is completely unrealistic. Let me ask the question this way (re. what Alberto wrote earlier): if I used Hildon on top of a stock upstream GTK+, what would be broken? If the answer is not much, then as Arjen (almost) said: Sounds perfect for the community repository. Cheers, Dave. -- maemo.org docsmaster Email: dne...@maemo.org Jabber: bo...@jabber.org ___ MeeGo-dev mailing list MeeGo-dev@meego.com http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev
Re: [MeeGo-dev] Future of hildon?
Em Segunda-feira 24. Maio 2010, às 17.18.50, Graham Cobb escreveu: On Monday 24 May 2010 15:22:42 Dave Neary wrote: Let me ask the question this way (re. what Alberto wrote earlier): if I used Hildon on top of a stock upstream GTK+, what would be broken? If the answer is not much, then as Arjen (almost) said: Sounds perfect for the community repository. The mails from Kimmo and Kate seem to suggest that as well as the GTK changes there are some significant issues with trying to port Hildon to another platform. In particular, the way the stackable windows work and the way input works both have to be reworked. Sounds like a non-trivial piece of work to me -- probably needs to be done by someone who is being paid, if we want it working in the next months? So, one possible focus for the funding would be port Hildon to MeeGo (or to a standards-compliant desktop environment, or something). Well, for one thing, the porting of the input methods needs to have an idea how the input methods on the target platform will work. As for the stacked windows, maybe it's a matter of determining if that's a feature that is wanted? Maybe the target UX won't have them, so they shouldn't be ported, but instead adapted to the new concept. -- Thiago Macieira - thiago (AT) macieira.info - thiago (AT) kde.org Senior Product Manager - Nokia, Qt Development Frameworks PGP/GPG: 0x6EF45358; fingerprint: E067 918B B660 DBD1 105C 966C 33F5 F005 6EF4 5358 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ MeeGo-dev mailing list MeeGo-dev@meego.com http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev
Re: [MeeGo-dev] Future of hildon?
On May 24, 2010, at 7:12 PM, ext Thiago Macieira wrote: Em Segunda-feira 24. Maio 2010, às 17.18.50, Graham Cobb escreveu: On Monday 24 May 2010 15:22:42 Dave Neary wrote: Let me ask the question this way (re. what Alberto wrote earlier): if I used Hildon on top of a stock upstream GTK+, what would be broken? If the answer is not much, then as Arjen (almost) said: Sounds perfect for the community repository. The mails from Kimmo and Kate seem to suggest that as well as the GTK changes there are some significant issues with trying to port Hildon to another platform. In particular, the way the stackable windows work and the way input works both have to be reworked. Sounds like a non-trivial piece of work to me -- probably needs to be done by someone who is being paid, if we want it working in the next months? So, one possible focus for the funding would be port Hildon to MeeGo (or to a standards-compliant desktop environment, or something). Well, for one thing, the porting of the input methods needs to have an idea how the input methods on the target platform will work. As for the stacked windows, maybe it's a matter of determining if that's a feature that is wanted? Maybe the target UX won't have them, so they shouldn't be ported, but instead adapted to the new concept. Same concept as stacked windows but implemented different way is also used by MeegoTouch toolkit and native Meego applications. If you would like to make meego applications with consistent and good UI you should have it implemented way or other. I was thinking could it be implemented with ordinary window manager with some tricks. For adapting any desktop widgets set ( also QWidgets ) will face same problems. Kinetic finger scroll is also key feature. So long than you have resistive touch screen you can manage with scroll bars but they become difficult to use if you have capasitive touch screen. Kate ___ MeeGo-dev mailing list MeeGo-dev@meego.com http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev
Re: [MeeGo-dev] Future of hildon?
Am Montag 24 Mai 2010 schrieb Thiago Macieira: As for the stacked windows, maybe it's a matter of determining if that's a feature that is wanted? Maybe the target UX won't have them, so they shouldn't be ported, but instead adapted to the new concept. From my personal developers point of view i really don't care that much about the details. Most of my apps were initially developed for Maemo4 and were able to run on plain gtk as well. They then have been ported to Maemo5. The first three screenshots at http://gpxview.garage.maemo.org/ e.g. show the same screen on all three UIs using very different UI concepts (HildonBreadCrumbTrail on Maemo4, StackableWindows on Maemo5 and ordinary gtk widgets under plain gtk). I know that many other Maemo developers keep their stuff similar flexible. This means that all those developers are used to #ifdef their work around UI differences and don't care if a slightly different window concept requires some special treatment here and there. Hundreds of hours of time have been spent writing these apps. Spending a few more to give them a Meego future is sure something many developers are willing to invest. For me it's more important to have some solution nicely integrated into meego than having one that's 100% compatible with the maemo5 apis. I am willing to test port my applications against anything you guys come up with. Till ___ MeeGo-dev mailing list MeeGo-dev@meego.com http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev
Re: [MeeGo-dev] Future of hildon?
2010/5/24 Dave Neary dne...@maemo.org: Let me ask the question this way (re. what Alberto wrote earlier): if I used Hildon on top of a stock upstream GTK+, what would be broken? Hello, current hildon code won't compile with upstream GTK+. Hildon needs a patched GTK+ version. I think that would be good to minimize the gap between that patched GTK+ and upstream GTK+, so we can compile hildon with mainstream GTK+. Did maemo/hildon developers already send patches upstream for that? Could someone make a list of submitted bug reports so possible contributors can start to work on them? If not, I think hildon/maemo/meego devels should start sending bug reports / patches upstream [1] ASAP ;) Regards, [1] https://bugzilla.gnome.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=gtk+ -- Javier Jardón Cabezas ___ MeeGo-dev mailing list MeeGo-dev@meego.com http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev
Re: [MeeGo-dev] Future of hildon?
On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 12:03:36AM +0200, Javier Jardón wrote: current hildon code won't compile with upstream GTK+. Hildon needs a patched GTK+ version. That's because of a few data types that were added for Maemo 5. There's a bug report with a patch here: https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4605 It hasn't been tested much yet because we have been working mainly with the Maemo-GTK branch, but there's nothing inherently complex in that patch. Berto ___ MeeGo-dev mailing list MeeGo-dev@meego.com http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev
Re: [MeeGo-dev] Future of hildon?
On Mon, May 24, 2010 at 04:22:42PM +0200, Dave Neary wrote: Let me ask the question this way (re. what Alberto wrote earlier): if I used Hildon on top of a stock upstream GTK+, what would be broken? If the answer is not much, then as Arjen (almost) said: Sounds perfect for the community repository. Well, code-wise, not much. Hildon itself doesn't depend much on features specific to Maemo-GTK (save for a few quirks already mentioned by Javier Jardón). In fact Debian has been distributing a version of Hildon from Maemo 5 for some time now (http://packages.debian.org/sid/libhildon-1-0). So making an app that requires a recent Hildon compile and run against upstream GTK+ is not terribly difficult. The main problem is making those apps behave properly :) There are some interactions such as stackable windows or menus that depend on specific hildon-desktop features. Also, some widgets are designed specifically for the N900, and while they may work and have a reasonable API they should probably be redesigned/modified to be more general. Berto ___ MeeGo-dev mailing list MeeGo-dev@meego.com http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev
Re: [MeeGo-dev] Future of hildon?
On Sun, May 23, 2010 at 02:34:43PM -0700, Arjan van de Ven wrote: So is there some plan to include hildon into meego? there is no plan for this at this time. I would have said something great for the cummunity repo if it wasn't for hildon patching core GTK in an incompatible way ;-( Can you elaborate a bit more on this? Hildon is a library different from GTK. If you're talking about the Maemo branch of GTK: yes, it contains changes for features that were necessary but unavailable in upstream GTK. But the policy was not to touch GTK unless it was completely necessary in order to keep it as close as possible to the upstream version (something that btw received some criticism at the time). Porting those changes to the latest upstream version of GTK does indeed require some effort, but I don't think there's anything inherently incompatible, since that same task has already been done in the past (e.g. for Maemo 5). Berto ___ MeeGo-dev mailing list MeeGo-dev@meego.com http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev
Re: [MeeGo-dev] Future of hildon?
Hi, ext Alberto Garcia wrote: On Sun, May 23, 2010 at 02:34:43PM -0700, Arjan van de Ven wrote: So is there some plan to include hildon into meego? there is no plan for this at this time. I would have said something great for the cummunity repo if it wasn't for hildon patching core GTK in an incompatible way ;-( Can you elaborate a bit more on this? Hildon is a library different from GTK. If you're talking about the Maemo branch of GTK: yes, it contains changes for features that were necessary but unavailable in upstream GTK. But the policy was not to touch GTK unless it was completely necessary in order to keep it as close as possible to the upstream version (something that btw received some criticism at the time). Porting those changes to the latest upstream version of GTK does indeed require some effort, but I don't think there's anything inherently incompatible, since that same task has already been done in the past (e.g. for Maemo 5). There are no plans to support Hildon officially in MeeGo, no matter what is the status of GTK+. This brings no changes compared to the Hildon status in Harmattan, announced as 'community supported' last year at the Desktop Summit. I also wonder what is the real status of this community support, and the willingness of the current Hildon and/or GTK+ maintainers and developers to bring Hildon and Hildon based applications to the MeeGo community repositories. There has been some discussion about this at GNOME's mobile-devel-list but honestly I had expected a more concrete or articulated answer by now. See the whole What would you do to encourage application developers on GNOME Mobile? discussion starting at http://mail.gnome.org/archives/mobile-devel-list/2010-April/msg3.html and even my own post back in February that got basically no traction from anybody involved in GTK+ development - http://mail.gnome.org/archives/mobile-devel-list/2010-February/msg00010.html Nokia gave a substantial fund to the GNOME Foundation with the main goal of promoting GTK+ based applications for Maemo 5 and also to help building a future path for them in future releases - now in practice MeeGo Handset UX releases. There is still not a concrete plan for that budget that I know, which is not, er, optimal considering how fast time passes both for Maemo 5 and MeeGo. Conclusion: if you think that we as Nokia still could to do something else to ease the transition of Hildon based applications to MeeGo please let me know. -- Quim Gil open source advocate MeeGo Devices @ Nokia ___ MeeGo-dev mailing list MeeGo-dev@meego.com http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev
