[meteorite-list] meteorite identification flowchart
The author of the popular (at least in my business) mindat web site just called to my attention this very handy and accurate flowchart: http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,11,279733,279809 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] World's Largest Meteorites by Type
Adam: I entirely agree, but on the basis of this photo http://meteorites.wustl.edu/lunar/stones/kalahari008.htm and assuming a density of 2.6 g/cm^3, I'd say that rock was at least 13 kg. Randy At 01:32 PM 2013-06-13 Thursday, you wrote: I wish somebody would take the time to actually and truthfully certify the weight on Kalahari 009. Weighing it on a bathroom scale and rounding it off is disrespectful to such a piece! It may be the world's heaviest but we will never know until somebody does the right thing and weighs it properly. Even if its weighs in the neighborhood of what is being claimed, but not proven, it may not be the worlds largest due to density. NWA 5000 is less dense and displaces more area per cubic centimeter therefor may be physically larger. Until we get an accurate weight, it cannot claim any heavyweight title. Come on, a rock from the Moon deserves better than this! It is like having a heavy weight boxer going for a title, failing to weigh in before a bought. It would be nice if its caretaker(s) were not so secretive and would at least disclose its dimensions if they cannot provide an accurate weight. Adam __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] sharp protrusion from an iron meteorite
I recieved a well prepared letter from a fellow with a question that I can't begin to answer. Maybe someone on the list has seen this kind of thing before. He bought a Baygorria (Iron, IAB complex) from a dealer 3 years ago. He picked it up recently to find a metal protrusion sticking out of the thing that was sharp enough to prick his thumb. Here's a jpg of his scanned photo. http://meteorites.wustl.edu/baygorria.jpg What's happened here? Randy Korotev St. Louis __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fire caused by meteorites.. Is it possible?
Here's a discussion you might want to read. http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2002/pdf/1882.pdf Randy Korotev At 02:52 PM 2012-08-27 Monday, you wrote: Hello all, Â I am investigating a case here in Brazil where something has fallen from the sky and caused fire on a 500 m2 area. Witnesses heared a loud buzz and soon noticed smoke and fire on a nearby mountain. Some work have been done on the local by the fire department and nothing was found related to aircraft or any other kind of device. Does anyone know any similar case caused by a meteorite? These are not common events related to meteorite falls. Â Thanks Andre Moutinho IMCA 2731 http://www.meteorito.com.br __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Vernacular of Meteorite
Meteorite and meteoroid are, indeed, well defined. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10./j.1945-5100.2009.01009.x/abstract Randy Korotev At 10:02 AM 2012-08-20 Monday, you wrote: They might reasonably call it an anti-meteoroid shelter, but the fact is, meteorite is not well enough defined to say that once a meteoroid impacts an object in space, it can't be called a meteorite. I don't have a problem with the usage in the article. Meteoroid and meteorite are reasonably interchangeable in this context; the good thing is that they didn't call it an anti-meteor shelter. Chris *** Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] looking for someone in the Reno area
I received a handwritten letter from some old folks in Reno, NV, who want to sell two meteorites that they found years ago on their property (40 acres). They need to raise some money in order to keep from losing the property. Yes, it sounds like a scam, but the letter looks sincere. It's likely that the rocks are not meteorites, but their request is, Can you maybe point out someone local who might be interested in buying them? So, if there is anyone out there who'd be willing to check this out, let me know. Randy Korotev St. Louis __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Fwd: Sutter's Mill Running Tally of Finds
Unknown female finder who contacted Randy Korotev - 4.26g stone (authenticity?) The woman who found the 4.26-g stone sent this message to me yesterday after I passed on to her offers to purchase her stone from some list members. I have decided to loan the piece to U.C. Davis, Dr. Yin, who is a renowned expert and published in the field on this type of meteorite. They will be taking a slice of the meteorite and returning the rest to me. I plan to just preserve it for family memories, being as my 4-year-old granddaughter Emily helped me find this. I know Dr. Yin, and I'll probably hear about it if it's not a meteorite. Randy Korotev __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Sutters Mill - mass and stone count
For those keeping count... I was contacted yesterday by a woman who told this story. Good morning, Randy. I live in Lotus, CA and have attached a picture of a meteorite I found on my driveway on 4/29/12. It has been confirmed by a geologist from UNLV, and weighed, per attached photo. I'm not sure what to do with this. The geologist offered me $2,000 cash on the spot. Here's the photo: http://meteorites.wustl.edu/images/2012-04-25_CA_CM_chondrite.jpg 4.26 g = I told her that $2000 for a 4-g stone was a good price. I think that she must have talked to a fake geologist because I don't know any real geologists who carry $2000 in their pocket. She hasn't been back in touch with me so I don't know what she's done with the stone. Randy Korotev __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] LOTS OF MOON ROCKS GONE?
Hi, Anne: The missing samples involve material that NASA allocated to somebody and now the somebody or somebody's heirs can't find the sample. Many analyses are destructive. If an investigator wants a sample removed from her or his inventory that was destroyed in analysis, there's a simple form to fill out. The sample is removed from the investigator's inventory and recorded as destroyed in the NASA data base. Those samples would not be counted among the missing. I suspect that a number of the missing samples were, in fact, destroyed and the paperwork was not submitted. Most thin sections used by investigators are prepared at NASA JSC (a fine thin-sectioning lab). So, NASA keeps track of the mass loss there and that material is not counted among the missing. (In the data base, I think its called attrition.) When an investigator receives a thin section, the nominal mass of record is always 0.010 g. If you look at the histogram I sent, there's a big peak at 0.006-0.011. Most of these samples are 0.010-g thin sections. Thin sections are easy to lose. They count as a line item, but the mass of record is only 0.010 g. For the reasons you give, however, they represent a lot more material. hope this helps, Randy At 04:44 PM 2011-12-12 Monday, you wrote: Thank you Randy for this accounting. But it seems to me that other factors are being ignored. First of all some of your experiments and analysis are necessarily destructive, and you cannot account for material that has been vaporized, or dissolved. Also, some of that material has been cut to make thin-sections, with an unavoidable cutting and polishing loss. Yes those losses would be small, but I expect that other the years hundreds of experiments and thin-sections have been done, all these add up and probably account for at least some of the missing material. Anne M. Black _http://www.impactika.com/_ (http://www.impactika.com/) _IMPACTIKA@aol.com_ (mailto:impact...@aol.com) Vice-President, I.M.C.A. Inc. _http://www.imca.cc/_ (http://www.imca.cc/) In a message dated 12/12/2011 1:09:43 PM Mountain Standard Time, koro...@wustl.edu writes: I'd like to address this issue of missing Apollo samples as a researcher. I just checked my inventory. I have 999 (really!) line items of samples from the 6 Apollo and 3 Russian Luna landing sites from NASA. I can think of only 1 or 2 other researchers who might have more. The total mass is 320.064 g (0.08% of the collection). That's an average of 0.32 g/sample. But, even that number is misleading. The mass distribution looks like this. http://meteorites.wustl.edu/Korotev_NASA_Apollo__Luna_samples.jpg Only 49 of the samples exceed 1 gram is mass. All of the samples 3 g are not rocks but regolith (alias soil or dust) samples. The smallest samples are all thin sections. My point is that every article about this issue shows a photo of a big rock, and NASA just doesn't issue big rocks to us researchers. As someone else mentioned, I suspect the actual mass of missing material is not large. Randy Korotev __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] LOTS OF MOON ROCKS GONE?
I'd like to address this issue of missing Apollo samples as a researcher. I just checked my inventory. I have 999 (really!) line items of samples from the 6 Apollo and 3 Russian Luna landing sites from NASA. I can think of only 1 or 2 other researchers who might have more. The total mass is 320.064 g (0.08% of the collection). That's an average of 0.32 g/sample. But, even that number is misleading. The mass distribution looks like this. http://meteorites.wustl.edu/Korotev_NASA_Apollo__Luna_samples.jpg Only 49 of the samples exceed 1 gram is mass. All of the samples 3 g are not rocks but regolith (alias soil or dust) samples. The smallest samples are all thin sections. My point is that every article about this issue shows a photo of a big rock, and NASA just doesn't issue big rocks to us researchers. As someone else mentioned, I suspect the actual mass of missing material is not large. Randy Korotev __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite?
I measure the specific gravity of most of the rocks that people send me. The book values for the SG of hematite and magnetite are in the 5.1-5.3 range. I get a lot of hematite and magnetite rich rocks, and SG's range from 3 to 5. The low ones are usually from rocks with quartz sand cemented by a lot of hematite or, perhaps better, hematite diluted with quartz sand. I also get a lot of rocks that are claimed to contain metal but all I can see are shiny mica flakes and grains of pyrite or arsenopyrite that look like metal but aren't. As I say on this page, a good test is to look at the grains after sawing and see if you can see the saw marks. http://meteorites.wustl.edu/id/ordinary_chondrites.htm If you can't, it's probably not FeNi metal. I'd like to see the sawn face of the stone in those photos up close. Ordinary chondrites break apart from weathering in nature because the metal rusts, causing a volume expansion (like rust blisters under automobile paint) that fractures the rock making it easier for water to get in, etc.. That's the only environment I'd expect to see a lot of hematite together with metal. The rock in the photos doesn't seem fractured. Randy Korotev At 10:00 PM 2011-11-29 Tuesday, you wrote: Hi Mike and thanks for your opinion. I seem to see some tiny vesicles but can't be sure; also we can't assume it's metal that's sparkling and my thoughts are at a density of 3.2 g/mL it is possibly some sort of basalt. Anyway, it's a very interesting meteorwrong, (assuming it's a wrong from the streak test which may be at odds with it being basalt ...). Wonder what Randy would think about it; the rock was found in the midwest not too far from him. It'd be a good one for his great site. Probably can strike it down as a meteorite by thinking about the two tone concentric heart it has with dendrites coming out (second picture). Still puzzled... Kindest wishes Doug -Original Message- From: Galactic Stone Ironworks meteoritem...@gmail.com To: MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com Cc: Jimski47 jimsk...@aol.com; meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tue, Nov 29, 2011 8:34 pm Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite? Hi Doug and List, Except for the grain size, it reminds me of some acapulcoites, visually speaking. And if not for the metal flakes, it reminds me of a very finely grained angrite. Best regards, MikeG -- Galactic Stone Ironworks - Meteorites Amber (Michael Gilmer) Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook - http://tinyurl.com/42h79my News Feed - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 Twitter - http://twitter.com/galacticstone On 11/29/11, MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com wrote: Looks like this has been commented on a bit and confirmed as a - meteorwrong - and apparently streaked reddish since it is commented that a streak test indicated it was probably hematite. (The color isn't mentioned, only that the streak proved it was hematite was mentioned.) just one comment, it would be nice to have these threads in the forum since having to sign up on another site if the thread is started there twists up the thread ... here are the interior pictures: http://www.meteoritejunction.com/download/file.php?id=1121 http://www.meteoritejunction.com/download/file.php?id=1122 Also, this stone is stranger in my opinion than that. The OP mentions it has a density of around 3.1 g/cc and says that hematite has a density of about 2.7 g/cc, and accounts for the higher density being caused by metal flakes distributed throughout the matrix. Hematite is muich heavier than 2.7 g/cc, after all in broad terms, 40% of its chemical formula is iron so one, ignoring the packing, could guestimate the minimum density of hematite at 0.4*(8 g/cc) = 3.2 g/cc, but given that the oxide has some weight, hematite ought to have a density of between 4-6 g/cc (and they are around 5.2 g/cc for both magnetite and hematite, depending on how it 'settles' together). Probably the 2.7 g/cc referred to was for quartz terrestrial rocks, not oxides of iron. In any case, I wonder if anyone else has experience with metal flakes in hematite. Hematite one of the most highly oxidized forms of iron right up there, more than goethite, and what can result when magnetite oxidizes further. I makes me wonder how you could have metal flakes survive in a hematite matrix (I don't think this can happen but really would like to know if anyone has seen this, for all I know there is a common process that can produce this, though I can't imagine what it would be unless someone mixed up a batch specially to do it). ref: http://www.meteoritejunction.com/viewtopic.php?f=10p=2860#p2860 Kindest wishes Doug -Original Message- From: Jimski47 jimsk...@aol.com To: meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Mon, Nov 28, 2011 3:54 pm Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorite? Hope everyone had a nice holiday weekend. I did some meteorite hunting
Re: [meteorite-list] Curry Montrose Meteorites
Here are photos that I took of rocks that Mr. Curry claimed (January, 2010) to be lunar meteorites, except for one (J in the photos) which he believes is from one of the four Moons of Jupiter, Neptune's Moon, Titan, or quite possibly, from a biologically active planet in Deep Interstellar Space. I'm really happy to have that one. http://meteorites.wustl.edu/meteorwrongs/unco.htm As impact breccia look-alikes, I'm fond of B and K, but I suspect that they're both terrestrial volcaniclastic rocks. Randy Korotev St. Louis __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] CONCEPTION JUNCTION, MISSOURI PALLASITE
Martin: Milton is unique in large part because of it's olivine composition. I've taken Fig. 2 from the LPSC2003 abstract you mention below and added a point (red) for Conception Junction (our analyses). http://meteorites.wustl.edu/Conception_Junction__Milton.jpg Milton is off by itself whereas Conception Junction plots near the Main Group pallasites. Randy Korotev At 05:01 AM 2011-08-27 Saturday, you wrote: Sorry if this is a double post but the first one doesn't seem to 'get through': Hello Dave, Karl A., Dr. Wasson and list, If the beautiful Conception Junction is 'unique' and not paired to any main group pallasite (Dr. Wasson), could it in any way be paired to the ungrouped pallasite MILTON, found less than 60 km away in the west of Conception Junction? Milton 'looks' very different from Conception Junction though... MILTON: http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meteor/metbull.php?sea=Pallasite%2C+ungroupedsfor=typesants=falls=valids=stype=exactlrec=50map=gebrowse=country=Allsrt=namecateg=Allmblist=Allrect=phot=snew=0pnt=Normal%20tablecode=16691[../../jump.htm?goto=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lpi.usra.edu%2Fmeteor%2Fmetbull.php%3Fsea%3DPallasite%252C%2Bungrouped%26sfor%3Dtypes%26ants%3D%26falls%3D%26valids%3D%26stype%3Dexact%26lrec%3D50%26map%3Dge%26browse%3D%26country%3DAll%26srt%3Dname%26categ%3DAll%26mblist%3DAll%26rect%3D%26phot%3D%26snew%3D0%26pnt%3DNormal%2520table%26code%3D16691] http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2003/pdf/1683.pdf Dr. Wasson was involved in the classification of Milton as well and might know. Can anyone help with an answer? Best wishes to all Martin __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] New type of fake moldavite coming soon?
Unless these guys have gone to a lot of work making a special glass, I would think the fakes could be easily be distinguished from the real things by composition. Moldavites have less than 1% sodium as Na2O whereas green bottle glass has 13-14%. Similarly, green bottle glass (soda-lime glass) has 9-11% calcium as CaO whereas moldavites have 2-3% CaO. Moldavites have 2-3% iron as Fe2O3 and green bottle glass (7 samples I've analyzed) has 0.1-0.7%. One of those hand held XRF guns should be able to see the differences for Ca and Fe (they won't do Na except in vacuum). Randy Korotev __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: term definitions and usage
I attended my first scientific conference as a graduate student sometime in the early 70's. My first exposure to lunar geochronology was a session I attended at that conference. I was surprised to learn that the community of isotope geochronologists was very contentious to the point of being insulting and rude. After nearly every talk somebody got up and asked a pointed question or made a damning comment. After one talk someone in the audience got up and chastised the speaker for having presented all his age data with the units byr. The chastiser was very adamant that billion years was an obsolete and a just-plain-wrong term, in part because the word billion means a different things in America and Britain. The proper term is Ga for gigaannum (you idiot)! The next speaker got up and started his talk like this: A nano gigaannum ago at this conference we presented some data... It took almost until the end of the sentence for the audience to appreciate the joke and erupt into laughter. Randy Korotev __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] trips to the Moon (Moon bases and meteorite recovery)
I have studied, literally, thousands of Apollo regolith samples. I've analyzed fines samples (1-mm grain-size fraction) taken every half centimeter down several core tubes, including the 2-m long Apollo 16 deep drill core. I've analyzed several thousand individual rock fragments in the 0.05-4 mm size range from all 6 Apollo landing sites and 3 Luna landing sites. These fragments were sieved from bulk soil, so there's no astronaut bias. More recently, I and my colleagues have examined at least one stone of nearly every lunar meteorite, most of which are regolith or fragmental breccias that are loaded with rock clasts. There aren't any meteorites in the lunar regolith. OK, that's an overstatement, but it's a practical statement. We see the chemical signature of meteorites in nearly every sample. In fines samples, concentrations of Ni, Ir, and other siderophile elements are usually in chondritic proportions and at absolute levels corresponding to 1-4% chondritic material. This stuff is largely from micrometeorites but it must also include material vaporized and recondensed from impacts of ordinary chondrites. Impact glass and crystallized impact melt is ubiquitous in the lunar regolith, and that where the meteorites go. OK (again), there's Bench Crater and Hadley Rille, but these are pretty insignificant rocks compared to the mass of lunar regolith that has been examined. One of my colleagues recently spotted an olivine grain in a lunar meteorite that he thinks might have been from a meteorite. That was exciting. We find lots of fragments (globs in NWA 5000) of iron-nickel metal, but even these usually show the signs of having melted and resolidified as impact melt cooled. Think about it. If a rock hits the Moon at 20-40 km/s, what's going to happen to it? The Moon isn't Mars. Randy Korotev At 09:06 PM 2011-06-27 Monday, you wrote: Hi James, Well taken, and I agree. Part of their mission was to retrieve lunar samples, but how imagine meteorites could be found if a team was put on to the lunar surface with the primary focus of finding meteorites and ignoring native lunar materials. :) Maybe Acme H3 Industries, Inc, will have the spare room in their underground base to lease out space to a meteorite hunting team, and the necessary scientific equipment to use for the mission (modified rovers, infrastructure, etc). Heck, the mining teams might unearth (unlune?) buried meteorites from under layers of regolith. Best regards, MikeG -- - Galactic Stone Ironworks - Meteorites Amber (Michael Gilmer) Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook - http://tinyurl.com/42h79my News Feed - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 Twitter - http://twitter.com/galacticstone EOM - http://www.encyclopedia-of-meteorites.com/collection.aspx?id=1564 - On 6/27/11, James Beauchamp falco...@sbcglobal.net wrote: The Apollo astronauts were not meteorite hunters, nor did they have any specific mission or training involving meteorites. Mike, I don't think that's quite correct. The Apollo crews were well versed in the expected geology, and were looking for quite a diverse lot of rocks. They spent many months training with geologists. Certainly, Dr. Schmitt was no exception on Apollo 17. From Earth to the Moon episode 10 was an excellent, even a bit romanticized focus on the geology focus. I think the focus was (and should have been) more anti-meteorite. We had plenty of those. But we didn't have verified lunar samples - to include cores and other different types. We needed more of those to verify the origins of our companion, and very little time and resources on-hand to get them. Just my thoughts on the matter. Obviously, I fully admit I should stay in my engineering corner, but couldn't help poking a little. :) --- On Mon, 6/27/11, Michael Gilmer meteoritem...@gmail.com wrote: From: Michael Gilmer meteoritem...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] trips to the Moon (Moon bases and meteorite recovery) To: Edwin Thompson etmeteori...@hotmail.com Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Monday, June 27, 2011, 7:43 PM Hi Edwin, Sterling, and List, I love a good science-fiction, science-fact, trip into speculation land. It reminds me of the old pulp sci-fi novels from the 50's and 60's that I have read, with rocketships and moon bases. Cosmic rays are not the only threat, there are also micro-meteorites and meteorites. The Late Heavy Bombardment is long over, but there is still a lot of debris peppering the Earth and Moon on a regular basis. With no atmosphere, the lunar surface is basically naked to incoming impactors. A base facility on the lunar surface would be subject to high-velocity impacts on a random basis. Now we can all imagine how the lunar
Re: [meteorite-list] [IMCA] Scam Artist - Joel Samson - Fake Lunar Meteorites
The rock that Joel Samson mentions in his e-mail to me of 2+ years ago (below) is depicted here: http://meteorites.wustl.edu/meteorwrongs/stone.jpg It looks like a weathered volcaniclastic rock to me. And, OK, it does also resemble a lunar breccia. Randy Korotev = Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 10:39:40 +0800 From: Joel Samson joel.m...@gmail.com To: koro...@wustl.edu Subject: my first lunar rock found in our country the PHILIPPINES! dear sir this photo is a similar stones to dhofar 908 group tkw of the rock is 1738grams.THANKS! JOEL stone.jpg === At 09:33 AM 2011-05-12 Thursday, you wrote: Hello List,  Thank you for calling my attention to potential dubieties about a lunar meteorite offered by Joel Samson.  The depicted meteorite Joel Samson posted on Facebook which is held between two fingers on the photo is definitely an authentic piece of the lunar meteorite Dho 908. It is one of our own photographs but we never gave it to him. So we do not know how he got hold of the photo and we did not give him the authorization to use it either.  We donât know whether the specimen he offers for sale is identical with the photo or not.  What we do know is that Joel Samson is in possession of material which has a distant similarity with Dho 908. As the material presumably is not meteoritic he was asked several times by competent side to have the specimens scientifically examined. To our knowledge he did not follow this advice. In case of doubts about the authenticity of a specimen offered as a Dho 908 we can offer support with the identification.  With very best regards  Siegfried Team __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Scam Artist - Joel Samson - Fake Lunar Meteorites
I think this guy may be more foolish and naive than devious. Here are some messages I revived from him. === Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 19:06:50 +0800 From: Joel Samson joel.m...@gmail.com To: koro...@wustl.edu Subject: Fwd: Pix 3 IMG_4961.JPG IMG_4962.JPG IMG_4963.JPG IMG_4964.JPG IMG_4965.JPG === Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 10:39:40 +0800 From: Joel Samson joel.m...@gmail.com To: koro...@wustl.edu Subject: my first lunar rock found in our country the PHILIPPINES! dear sir this photo is a similar stones to dhofar 908 group tkw of the rock is 1738grams.THANKS! JOEL stone1.jpg = Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 19:28:26 -0800 From: Joel Samson joel.m...@gmail.com To: koro...@wustl.edu Subject: thanks for the info hi sir for now i idont have money to pay for the test of my rock.thanks for the info.GODBLESS! FROM JOEL = Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 09:38:57 +0800 From: Joel Samson joel.m...@gmail.com To: koro...@wustl.edu Subject: ? dear sir why did you post my rock on your gallery of meteorwrongs?it hasnt been tested that my rock is not a lunar meteorite? its very hard for me to accept it,but again youre the expert! GODBLESS! At 12:32 PM 2011-05-11 Wednesday, you wrote: Hello Folks, It was brought to my attention that Joel Samson posted some meteorites for sale on Facebook today. One of them is a definite fake 5000, a questionable Haberer Meteorites Dhofar 908 and some other offerings. Here are a couple of the images he posted on the Meteorites Group in Facebook: Fake 5000 offered by Joel Samson: http://www.lunarrock.com/fakeNWA5000/fakeNWA5000JoelSamson.jpg Questionable Dhofar 908 from Haberer Meteorites being offered by Joel Samson on Facebook (anyone who knows Siegfried Haberer will want to contact him!!): http://www.lunarrock.com/fakeNWA5000/fakeDhofar908JoelSamson.jpg Anything and everything needs to be done to rid this industry of yet another scam artist!!! Best Regards, Greg Hupé __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Which came first the chicken or the egg?
I've asked Robert Haag when Calcalong Creek was found, and he said no idea amigo. The actual find dates for the three Yamato 79 stones are listed here http://meteorites.wustl.edu/lunar/moon_meteorites_list_alpha.htm I dug those out of the Japanese literature. Randy Korotev At 01:26 PM 2011-04-27 Wednesday, you wrote: Jeff, Al, Martin and Listers, After reading the posts I have a better idea how I am going to approach the Calcalong Creek and ALHA81005 meteorites and stay true to science and culture that these meteorites hold. I do believe the stories that follows these meteorites are great and right in their own. And I am also intrigued by the EETA79001 meteorite that Jeff had suggested about Mars meteorites. Al, being there when Robert unveiled the Calcalong Creek has to be an all time high to see and hold that meteorite. Now lets go out and find the first American Lunar meteorite guys. Rock on Shawn Alan IMCA 1633 eBaystore http://shop.ebay.com/photophlow/m.html Let's make no mistake about the importance of ALHA81005: this was the stone that led to the discovery that rocks from the Moon were present in the meteorite record on Earth. Likewise, EETA79001 was the stone that provided the first convincing evidence that Mars rocks were present on Earth. Until that time, Chassigny and Nakhla were just different kinds of achondrites. These meteorites are the ones that belong in the science hall of fame. Jeff On 4/27/2011 1:10 AM, Shawn Alan wrote: Hello Frank and Listers, Why I asked this question was because a couple weeks ago I sent out some emails on a project I am working on and someone had suggested that I should have ALHA81005 with the project I am doing because it was the first Lunar meteorite found. Thats some big new for the meteorite/science world. I got to looking around and saw that the date was 1981 or 1982 when the lunar was discovered and I had also noticed on the Meteoritical Bulletin Database that Calcalong Creek was discovered 1960. I had also read other sources that stated that the Calcalong Creek was found after 1960 but before 1990 by an Aborigine meteorite hunter in the Millbillillie strewnfield. Science likes to be 100% right so to say that the ALHA81005 was the first discovered lunar meteorite has some doubt in my mind because of the project I am doing. Yes I can agree that the ALHA81005 is the first classified meteorite, however to say that it was the first lunar to be found has some little doubts because of what had be going on in Austrial from 1960 to 1990 with the collecting of the Millbillillie meteorites. I would like to see or hear what Robert Haag can recall from that day when he found that specail meteorite. Hes the first source and could help enlighten what he can recall from the day he found the first lunar meteorite out side of Anartica and could also be the first found lunar as well. Hope he reads this and can put some light on to this fasinating discovery. Shawn Alan IMCA 1633 eBaystore http://shop.ebay.com/photophlow/m.html __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] New 5+ Kilo Lunar - Shisr 162
I just changed the URL to something more logical: http://meteorites.wustl.edu/lunar/stones/shisr162.htm Randy Korotev At 08:10 PM 2011-04-07 Thursday, you wrote: Hello Michael, All, You should check the WUSTL list more often; it's been posted for some months. http://meteorites.wustl.edu/lunar/stones/unnamed19.htm The list: http://meteorites.wustl.edu/lunar/moon_meteorites_list_alumina.htm The lunar you mention is largely uncut, and resides in the hands of the finder. I think he *may* have been looking to sell some, but I wouldn't be the person to ask. I assume he's a list-member, so if he sees this, maybe he'll chime in. Regards, Jason On Thu, Apr 7, 2011 at 6:06 PM, Michael Gilmer meteoritem...@gmail.com wrote: Hi List, A new lunar was approved into the Met Bulletin today - a 5kg rock held by anonymous which was found in Oman(!) in 2006. Does anyone know anything about this new lunar (other than what is in the write-up), and does anyone have a photo of it? Congratulations to Anonymous - a 5 kilo lunar is quite a prize. Best regards, MikeG PS - I hope whoever found it, didn't use a backhoe to remove it. ;) -- Mike Gilmer - Galactic Stone Ironworks Meteorites Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone News Feed - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 Twitter - http://twitter.com/galacticstone EOM - http://www.encyclopedia-of-meteorites.com/collection.aspx?id=1564 --- __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Crystals in Lunar Meteorites...?
Greg; Most lunar rocks are impact breccias - rocks made up of bits and pieces of older rocks. The pieces are called clasts and they may be suspended in a matrix of crystallized impact melt, glass, or shocked-compressed smaller clasts. Big clasts are fragments of rocks. The smaller clasts are typically single mineral grains. It's not uncommon to see clasts of breccias in breccias in breccias. Often, the clasts are cracked and bent as a result of shock (visible in thin section). These effects also destroy the transparency. It would be rare to see an attractive mineral clast with a hand lens on the broken surface of a lunar breccia. Keep in mind that the ancient lunar highlands is ~80% plagioclase and the rest is mainly pyroxene and olivine. Plag doesn't take well to being beat up. You're most likely to see an olivine crystal, but it won't be very big. There are two coarse-grained basalts among the lunar meteorites, almost certainly source-crater paired. http://meteorites.wustl.edu/lunar/stones/mil05035.htm http://meteorites.wustl.edu/lunar/stones/asuka881757.htm They show little evidence of having been affected by impacts (other than the obvious - they were found on Earth!). As a consequence, they have big crystals, by lunar standards. Small olivine grains are obvious on NWA032/479 http://meteorites.wustl.edu/lunar/stones/nwa0032.htm Oh, and a petrographically inclined colleague reminded me yesterday that it's crossed nicols, not nichols, and that the metal in lunar breccias is, in fact, crystalline, though a bit opaque. Randy Korotev At 06:19 PM 2010-12-29 Wednesday, you wrote: Thank you Larry - Sometimes you just can't get your thoughts to the fingertips. Greg S. To: stanleygr...@hotmail.com; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Crystals in Lunar Meteorites...? Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 18:51:46 -0500 From: thetop...@aol.com Hi Greg, Randy, List, I have been wondering the same thing since I've recently cut a few of my lunar suspects recently. To put Greg's question a little different, do lunar meteorites ever have crystaline shapes? Can you see with the naked eye or a loupe actual crystal structures like 6 sided or 8 sided crystals? Sincerely, Larry Atkins IMCA # 1941 Ebay username alienrockfarm www.poisonivycontrolofmichigan.com -Original Message- From: Thunder Stone To: koro...@wustl.edu; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wed, Dec 29, 2010 11:55 am Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Crystals in Lunar Meteorites...? Thanks Randy:It does to some degree and thanks for the links.I keep reading that lunar rocks contain clasts, which I interpret as a grouping of crystals mashed together from a previous rock, and not individual crystals. I also read grains too.Let me put it another way: Do lunar rocks ever contain large crystals of feldspar or pyroxene like you may see in granite or a pegmetite? I unfortunately only have one very small lunar and have only seen others briefly.I'm convinced if a lunar has lost its fusion crust - it would be very difficult to identify when found.Greg S. Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 13:05:38 -0600 To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com From: koro...@wustl.edu Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Crystals in Lunar Meteorites...? Greg: All lunar meteorites contain mineral crystals. The basalts (both breccias and unbrecciated) are composed mainly of crystals of pyroxene and plagioclase feldspar. Some contain olivine, and all contain minor ilmenite and related iron-titanium minerals. The feldspathic breccias are largely crystalline. The only noncrystalline material is glass and a little metal. Crushed rock is crushed crystalline material. In some lunar meteorites the plagioclase has been shock converted to maskelynite which, technically, isn't a crystal but more like glass. Put another way, in photomicrographs of lunar meteorites (or any rock) under cross-polarized light (NOT plane polarized light) or crossed nichols, any and all non-black material is crystalline. There are some here: http://curator.jsc.nasa.gov/antmet/PDFFiles/B07_LAP02205v3.pdf basalt http://curator.jsc.nasa.gov/antmet/PDFFiles/F23_GRA06157v3.pdf feldspathic breccia http://curator.jsc.nasa.gov/antmet/PDFFiles/F24_LAR06638v3.pdf feldspathic breccia http://curator.jsc.nasa.gov/antmet/PDFFiles/M07_MET01210v3.pdf basaltic breccia Does this answer your question? Randy Korotev At 11:59 AM 2010-12-29 Wednesday, you wrote: List: I hope everyone had a prosperous and joyful Holiday Season. I was wondering something: Do lunar meteorites ever contain crystals? Or are the just crushed rock and lunar soil compacted together? From what I've been able to find is that any basalt type rock containing white feldspar that are crystals or if there is opaque crystals (ilmenite or magnetite...etc
Re: [meteorite-list] Crystals in Lunar Meteorites...?
Greg: All lunar meteorites contain mineral crystals. The basalts (both breccias and unbrecciated) are composed mainly of crystals of pyroxene and plagioclase feldspar. Some contain olivine, and all contain minor ilmenite and related iron-titanium minerals. The feldspathic breccias are largely crystalline. The only noncrystalline material is glass and a little metal. Crushed rock is crushed crystalline material. In some lunar meteorites the plagioclase has been shock converted to maskelynite which, technically, isn't a crystal but more like glass. Put another way, in photomicrographs of lunar meteorites (or any rock) under cross-polarized light (NOT plane polarized light) or crossed nichols, any and all non-black material is crystalline. There are some here: http://curator.jsc.nasa.gov/antmet/PDFFiles/B07_LAP02205v3.pdf basalt http://curator.jsc.nasa.gov/antmet/PDFFiles/F23_GRA06157v3.pdf feldspathic breccia http://curator.jsc.nasa.gov/antmet/PDFFiles/F24_LAR06638v3.pdf feldspathic breccia http://curator.jsc.nasa.gov/antmet/PDFFiles/M07_MET01210v3.pdf basaltic breccia Does this answer your question? Randy Korotev At 11:59 AM 2010-12-29 Wednesday, you wrote: List: I hope everyone had a prosperous and joyful Holiday Season. I was wondering something: Do lunar meteorites ever contain crystals? Or are the just crushed rock and lunar soil compacted together? From what I've been able to find is that any basalt type rock containing white feldspar that are crystals or if there is opaque crystals (ilmenite or magnetite...etc.), then it cannot be lunar, is this true? Are there some cases where you could find crystals within a lunar rock? Much Thanks and everyone have a happy New Year. Greg S. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Witnessed fall lunars?
Dear Sterling: Thanks so much for that enlightening explanation! Randy Korotev At 10:32 PM 2010-09-07 Tuesday, you wrote: Hi, Lunar Gang, and List, We have a situation here that needs straightening out. Escaping from the Moon is one thing. Getting to the Earth is another. Here's how it starts. An object is propelled off the lunar surface (doesn't matter how). As soon as it's no longer in contact with the force that impelled it, its speed can't increase. It can decrease, though, and it does. Lunar gravity will pull down on it, reducing its speed at the same rate it would gain if it fell. It goes slower and slower. Eventually, its speed will fall to zero and it will reverse course and start to fall back. UNLESS its starting velocity is above or at the Moon's escape velocity. It takes 2380 meters/sec to escape to the point 38,000 miles from the Moon's center to where the gravitation pull of the Earth and the Moon are equal. If the rock started with 2381 m/sec, it will get there moving at 1 m/sec, a crawl. After that, the important thing is: which way was it headed? Surrounding the Moon is a distorted spherical (parabolic) envelope with its pocket pointing directly at Earth that outlines that balancing point between the Earth's and the Moon's pull. It's called the Hill Sphere (for any body). The Hill Sphere, or equipotential point for the Moon, is at a radius of about 38,000 miles, still over 200,000 miles from earth. If a Lunar escapee has enough speed to reach the Moon's Hill Sphere and cross over, it will be under the control of the Earth's gravitational field. The Moon has only 1/81.3 of the mass of the Earth, so the balance point between them is much closer to the Moon than the Earth. Oh, if it was going very fast, it could escape the Earth too, but the odds against that are great. No, that rock is dam lucky to have made it to the Translunar Gravitational Equipotential Point for its flight. In general, since Lunar escape velocity is low compared to the Earth's, if a rock just barely escapes, by the time it crosses the Border, it would be moving very slowly, almost standing still. From the viewpoint of the Earth, it's like someone carried a rock 'way out there and while standing still far from Earth, dropped it. Like so many borders, once you cross it, you're in another jurisdiction. The Moon no longer has any say in what happens to the rock that crosses the Hill Sphere Border. Slowly at first, it begins to fall toward Earth, but it moves faster and faster, eventually acquiring (up to) 11,233 meters/sec, plus any starting speed, blah, blah... Will it curve and swerve and head straight for the Earth's central spot? No, not often. There are a variety of outcomes and few of them will get a rock to land on Earth. Many will end up co-orbiting the Sun along with the Earth and will eventually tangle with the Big Mother Planet again. Some, that are headed more or less toward the Earth to begin with will scream past in an asymptotic pass, whipping around the Earth, changing direction and picking up speed, in a home grown version of the gravity well maneuver. They will tossed far and gone, in a gentler version of what Jupiter does to anything gets near it. But only if they miss... Some of those headed our way, a small percentage, will actually strike the Earth, or come in at a steep angle. They might survive to the ground... or they might not. A few, we lucky few, will graze the top of the Earth's atmosphere tangentially, in a flat trajectory roughly parallel to the surface of the planet, at about zero degrees of altitude (relative to us). They will be moving between 11,186 meters/sec and 13,466 meters/sec and their chances of landing are As Good As It Gets. That's the simple view from Physics 101. It turns out to be more complicated, however. NOW, we have to turn the question around and look at it from the Moon's and the Rock's perspective. If you're a rock looking to get the Earth, what's the best way to leave home? That will determine what happens to you in the long run. So, imagine you're an indecisive rock staring at the black Lunar sky... If you aim for where the Earth is NOW, it won't be there when you arrive. so which way do I go?! There are no signposts and no obvious solution... Now, it's time to introduce you to Barbara E. Shute. Her work can be found at the NASA Technical Reports Server: http://ntrs.nasa.gov/search.jsp?No=10Ne=35N=4294963886Ns=ArchiveName|0as=false I suggest Dynamical behavior of ejecta from the moon. Part I - Initial conditions, a PDF of which can be found at: http://hdl.handle.net/2060/19660021054 It's just what that rock is looking for --- a road map to Earth! However, this is pretty heavy lifting if your orbital mechanics are rusty, like mine, although no doubt Rob Matson will eat it up and ask for please, another bowl, sir? First, the Moon, OUR Moon, is odd. It's a long way from the Earth and its orbital velocity (1022 m/sec) is much slower than its
Re: [meteorite-list] Witnessed fall lunars?
MikeG asks: Is there a theory for why there have been no witnessed falls of lunar meteorites? It seems odd to me that we have 4 Martian witnessed falls (Shergotty, Chassigny, Zagami, Nakhla, and almost Lafayette) and no lunars. One issue is that these 5 meteorites are 5 kg, 4 kg, 18 kg, 10 kg, and 0.8 kg in mass. Only 3 lunars are 4 kg in mass. Another issue (probably more important) is that lunar escape velocity is only 2.4 km/s and very little material ejected from the Moon is going much faster than that. This velocity compares with 20-40 km/s for asteroidal meteorites. Is a rock entering the atmosphere at 2.4 km/s going to noticeably incandesce? I don't know. I believe that the space shuttle hits the atmosphere at ~7.7 km/s. Melanie asks: I asked this a while ago on Greg Catterton's forum, and I was told that rocks from the moon aren't as solid (tough) as Mars rocks, and therefore are less likely to survive entry... yet what about all these Howardites? Although breccias, most of the lunar meteorites are very tough rocks. Any rock that survives being blasted off the Moon isn't going to disintegrate in Earth's atmosphere any more than an asteroidal or martian meteorite. Steve says: The moon is close to the earth and material knocked off the moon has a relatively short time to reach the earth. Compared to what? Some lunar meteorites took a million years or more to reach Earth. Mars is farther away and not protected by a companion and its closer to the asteroid belt so it receives many more impacts than the moon. Not many more. Only a factor of two greater for Mars, but the average velocity of the impactors is only 60% as great. Randy Korotev Washington University in St. Louis __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] How Many Lunar Meteorites?
Dear Eric: My alphanumeric list contains 140 named stones, http://meteorites.wustl.edu/lunar/moon_meteorites_list_alpha.htm with the caveat that some do not actually have official names yet (e.g., Unnamed 12). They're on the list because I've analyzed them and know them to be lunar. That's the main reason that my number, 140, is larger than the MetBull number, 130. It's my hope that all the unnamed get official names someday. Does this mean there are 130 Lunar meteorites that have been recovered and classified, Ever? Stones, yes; meteorites, no. My composition-ordered list has only 68 meteorites because of known or strongly-suspected pairings. http://meteorites.wustl.edu/lunar/moon_meteorites_list_alumina.htm Norbert Classen keeps close tabs on this and has 67 on his list (he and I both know about one that is on my list but may not be on his list yet): http://www.meteoris.de/luna/list.html So, ~68 is the total number of known lunar meteorites. That information is not easily available from the MetBull database. It sometimes takes years to establish that different named stones are or are not paired. A confusion for your calculations is that practically every individual lunar and martian meteorite stone gets it's own name and line-item in the MetBull database whereas all Allende stones have one name. Randy At 12:40 PM 8/23/2010 Monday, you wrote: Hi List, I know this has been talked about on-list but... I keep getting this question, or people that say they have found a Lunar meteorite. I'm wondering how many there actually are. I've heard numbers thrown about haphazardly, but no one has been able to give me a clear and concise answer. The Met-Bull has ...130 records found for meteorites with historical types that contain Lunar...' Does this mean there are 130 Lunar meteorites that have been recovered and classified, Ever? Or is my search flawed? (as a side note, it also says there are ...92 records found for meteorites with historical types that contain Martian...) Dr. Randy Korotev's List of Lunar Meteorites on the Washinton University website has the number at 140. http://meteorites.wustl.edu/lunar/moon_meteorites_list_alpha.htm Just for giggles I wanted to know how many total classified meteorites there actually were on the planet. ...39146 valid meteorite names; 11959 provisional names; 4589 full-text writeups... That's a whopping 51,105 classifications. Wow! Doing some simple math, 130 Lunar meteorites out of 51,105 total classifications means that Lunars only makeup about 0.254% of the total number of meteorite ever classified. (0.180% for Martian meteorites). Are these number correct? Regards, Eric __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] This is fun to read...
http://uncometeorites.shutterfly.com/ ...and, yes, I sent you there. Randy Korotev Saint Louis, MO koro...@wustl.edu __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] This is fun to read...
Gary: Thats very funny Randy. And do you know the Japanese word unko? A fitting description for this person's lunars. No, tell us! Greg: I sure wish I knew where his secret site was, I could use a few more lunar meteorites! ;-) The other person mentioned on the website just called me to say that Unco is for the Uncompahgre Plateau of Colorado. Randy __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Opinions on this...
This guy contacted me back in February. Initially, he just sent the photo and an analysis report from an unnamed lab. == Analysis Report C =2.1156% Si =1.6442% Mn =0.4490 % P=0.0556% S=0.0270% Cr=0.0067% Mo=0.0005% Ni=8.4981% Al=0.0035% Co=4.1850% Cu=0.0151% Nb=0.0003% Ti=0.0181% V=0.0070% W=0.0047% Pb=0.0002% Sn=0.0123% B=0.0013% N=0.0034% Fe=82.95% == This is a strange composition. Ni is OK for an iron meteorite but Co is a factor of 10 too high and Mn is 100x too high. I asked for the story, and got this: I will tell you the story,my brother had it by change item with shot gun from Kalieng hill type [Kalieng are people no nation,they brough many oxes from Burmar border walking through forest and sold in Thailand no tax to pay]this was happened 35 years ago when my brother had done mine buisness in the forest of north Thailand near border of Burmar,my brother died with cancell so I had it. At 14:48 01-05-10 Saturday, you wrote: Here is the story that came with it: I will tell you about the stone,late 35 years ago my brother worked as a mine buisness up north on the border of Thailand and Burmar in the forest,one day Kalieng hill tribe [Kalieng hill tribe are some small people lived on the border]came to my brother office in the forest and changed the stone with my brother shot gun and walked away,now my brother dead with cancer already,so I have the stone. when you see the analysis do you think what it was?Have you been to Bangkok. The owner is not willing to provide a sample to be testing or inspected first hand, that always worries me. Also, its almost like the classic x died and left me with billions and I want to give it to you if you send me x amount to help Greg Catterton www.wanderingstarmeteorites.com IMCA member 4682 On Ebay: http://stores.shop.ebay.com/wanderingstarmeteorites Randy Korotev Saint Louis, MO koro...@wustl.edu __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Fwd: New Lunars
Dear colleagues conscripts: This (below) might be a great opportunity to obtain lunar meteorite from a witnessed fall. Seeing that my correspondent didn't send me any photos, you might be able to find some on his web site. http://uncometeorites.shutterfly.com/ soon to retire to my home state of Wisconsin to look for meteorites, Randy Korotev Saint Louis, MO === Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 17:28:59 -0600 Subject: New Lunars From: Steve Curry cwhei...@gmail.com To: Randy Korotev koro...@wustl.edu Koretev; As much as I really do not like you as a person, or as a professional authority, you are entitled to know that I have located and recovered a second Lunar dispersion field in North America, from a fireball witnessed by three individuals in February of 2009. It's taken some time, but I've documented all aspects of this bolide and am 110% certain it is of lunar origin. I realize, you have put the word out to all of your colleagues conscripts not to accept specimens from me, and to reject, refute and denounce this finding. All you have done, however, is to make your retirement dreams come true. I hope you like Canon City in the winter time. It's supposed to be real nice that time of year. Because I like you so little, I'm not sending you single photo of your treasured Lunars. You can spend the rest of your days just wondering what I have recovered. Steve === __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 482
At 00:54 26-01-10 Tuesday, you wrote: Randy, why did you write that there is no scientific evidence that any particular lunar meteorite originates from the lunar farside? Dear Walter and list: We don't know exactly where on the Moon any lunar meteorite comes from. It has, nevertheless, become fashionable, if not obligatory, for lunar meteorite scientists to speculate where a new lunar meteorite might come from in a regional sense when they write papers about them. I've done it myself. The people who understand the dynamics of these things tell me that the chance of having a rock achieve escape velocity from the farside is the same as from the nearside. Any rock that leaves the Moon has the same chance of landing on Earth. Some of this is discussed in a recent (and much too long) paper: http://epsc.wustl.edu/~rlk/papers/korotev_et_al_2009_mps_intermediate_iron.pdf To me this all means that half the lunar meteorites must come from the farside, we just don't know which ones. What we do know is that NWA 482 is highly feldspathic (~80% plagioclase) and poor in radioactive elements like Th (thorium). We know from orbital measurements that a larger fraction of the surface material on the farside is feldspathic and low in Th than for the nearside. The nearside has more basalts and most of the Th-rich stuff. So, on the basis of chemical composition, NWA 482 has a 50% chance of being from the farside. But, the same argument applies to the other 32 feldspathic lunar meteorites. Surely, some feldspathic lunar meteorites come from the nearside. NWA 4936/5406, for example, is very similar in composition to soil from the Apollo 16 site on the nearside. The corresponding argument is that most of the basaltic (lun-b) meteorites come from the nearside because most of the mare basalts are exposed on the nearside. We also can say that Th-rich meteorites like SaU 169 and Dhofar 1442 must come the anomalously Th-rich region in the northwest quadrant of the nearside known as the Procellarum KREEP Terrane. But again, the source crater for none of the lunar meteorites has been established with certainty. An impact making a 1-km-crater can launch a lunar meteorite. Randy Korotev __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Terminal Velocity vs Cosmic Flaming Velocity
Maybe someone else mentioned this, but on the interview with the dentist, Dr. Ciampi, that NPR aired this weekend, he clearly said that the meteorite wasn't warm either when he [his partner] touched it. Also, the reporter, Audie Cornish, consistently referred to the thing as a meteor despite that Dr. Ciampi called it a meteorite. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=7 At 13:12 25-01-10 Monday, you wrote: I did read however in one article by a major newspaper that stated the Lorton meteorite was smoldering. Don't remember where though. Perhaps a misquote, or misinterpretation? Probably a reporters poetic license being exercised. :O) geozay Randy Korotev Saint Louis, MO koro...@wustl.edu __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Question Regarding Lunars
At 16:59 08-01-10 Friday, you wrote: Randy, that's what I love about this hobby, it's an ongoing learning process. Thanks for the links to the lunar meteowrongs, there great. Cheers, Jim K Dear Jim: Don't pay any attention to anything I say. I'm a narrow-minded, egocentric fraud. A few days ago a fellow sent me 32 rocks, all of which he thought were meteorites. I told him I'd only look at the 3 he thought most likely to be meteorites. He named three. I looked at them. None had fusion crusts or regmaglypts. I showed them to a a guy here who knows more about terrestrial rocks than I do. All three were volcaniclastic rocks, in our opinion. Maybe one was a terrestrial breccia. I told the guy what I thought. Here's how he responded. = I'm thinking, that asking a geologist to do the job of a lunar geochemist, is like sending a carpenter to erect the next World Trade Center. It is obvious, that you are unable to wrap your mind around the idea that a discovery such as this could be possible, or even feasible. It is also apparent, that the potential of this discovery is not important to you, or to the science. Your attempts to deny, denounce and destroy this effort has reached, the end of the trail! Having said as much, I will be dismissing you from this case. I will have the lab results sent to several other, more open-minded intelligent lunar geochemists, whom I am in contact with, and who currently think that such a discovery is not only possible and feasible, but probable overdue. This project is deserving of young, alert, provocative, curious and inquisitive minds, who are willing to think outside the box. (There are meteorites that are Red!!..check out the latest chat on your local Meteorite chat room; courtesy of Mike Farmer). I've never known a scientist wanting, offering or settling for a compromise on a potential discovery. How egocentric how terribly absurd! I do thank you for your efforts, but you are not the man of science I was expecting, or hoping, you would be. It is obvious, too, that you introduced the specimens to your terrestrial geologist (if there was one you associate with!) with prejudice. This is not the type of scientific inquiry deserving of a comment or compliment. Your arguments against these specimens being meteoritic, should be directed against your own publications and those of Richard Norton, NASA, JPL, Johnson Space Center, and every single collection around the globe. I must suspect, that you are in the game to protect your own precious fusion-crusted relics and the value of your fraternity's collections. Your professional personal integrity are certainly in question, here! I have given you this potential discovery on a silver platter, but you have chosen to spit in my eye, as if I was some kind of lowly peon. Never, have I been treated with such arrogant malice! I wish you well on your retirement may it be soon! A fella' can look at just so many rocks, that he becomes one, himself! = I sure hope this guy finds someone else on The List to insult! I need to retire, Randy Korotev __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Lindfors avalanche!
I've asked him to stop, too, but he hasn't done it. This calendar year I've received a minimum of 3801 e-mails from him (~11/day) with 84,805 JPG attachments. I say minimum because our IT guy just trashes them if I don't clean up my mail box every few days. I derive some bizarre pleasure from counting them. At 11:11 26-12-09 Saturday, you wrote: Omg, I just got 20 Lindfors-o-grams all at once, with nearly 50 Mb of attached images. Has anybody figured out how to stop this spammer? Jeff Randy Korotev __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Libyan (looks like a) crater
List: Thanks for all the comments. The finder, an Italian gephysicist, sent me a figure that allows me to say that the feature is probably within a kilometer of the center of this map: http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Tazirbu,+Libyaoe=utf-8client=firefox-aie=UTF8hl=encd=1geocode=FS56iAEdLQlAAQsplit=0sll=37.0625,-95.677068sspn=23.875,57.630033hq=hnear=Tazirbu,+Libyall=25.788299,21.77207spn=0.059198,0.074673t=hz=14 It's along the Great Man-Made River project in Libya (a long way from the crater field in Egypt that Anne mentioned). The finder also insists that it's not a bomb crater because there's no metal shrapnel. Randy Korotev Saint Louis, MO koro...@wustl.edu __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Libyan (looks like a) crater
Dear List: I received this intriguing e-mail today from someone I don't know. = Dear Randy, I am a geophysicist and had a recent trip on Libyan desert for campaign of geophysical investigations, mostly GPR and Geoelectric tomography. Going back to the camp I found at sunset due to low angle light- something strange on the flat desert surface. I found a perfect circular crater with melt sand scattered around . sand grains are melt and embedding larger quartz grains. In my opinion thats a impact crater and sand is melt because of the heat wave. Larger grains had no time to melt . That melt rock has a black matrix-nothing like that in the area, also there are no similar structures in that flat, flat flat desrt surface, sand is only silica and quartz grain and no dark matrix can be seen for kilometers. I made a few geophysics on the spot and found big electric anomalies and very anomalous readings of Geoelectric values. I took a few samples of melt rock very heavy really. I am posting a few photos of the crater. I have another stone found at 2500 m on the bed of a melt glacier, same story, thats not a stone of the area, it is like a fuse, heavy and black inside with a very aerodynamic shape, I will mail you a photo ( after reading once more your recommendations) if interested . for sure not a human artifact or an original stone of the area. Sorry to disturb, ... = I put the photos here: http://meteorites.wustl.edu/meteorwrongs/libyan_crater.htm The round thing in the desert looks something like a crater. Maybe it's a bomb crater. Maybe it's a meteorite impact crater. The rock doesn't look like samples of Libyan desert glass that I've seen. I don't know the LDG story well. Has there ever been a crater associated with the glass? Randy Korotev Saint Louis, MO koro...@wustl.edu __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Saudi Arabian iron
I was contacted recently by a fellow who had this story: Attached are pictures of suspected meteorites, one larger [3+ lbs] and the rest smaller pieces. My father ... found these at a site on the Arabian Peninsula in the late 1940's. I believe they came from the desert in the lower half of the country - Rub al Kahli. My father was with ARAMCO, the Arabian American Oil Company, and was a geodesist in the exploration department. In the late 60's, living in Phoenix, AZ, my dad donated a mumber of these pieces to the Heard Museum. He sent me three small pieces to examine that look like this (millimeter ticks on ruler). http://meteorites.wustl.edu/DSC_4185.jpg I filed down a corner; they're definitely iron. I told him that in the late 1940's the only meteorite known from Saudi Arabia was Wabar, that it was big, and that if his father had pieces of an iron meteorite, it was probably Wabar. I also mentioned what price etched slices of Wabar sold for on e-bay. Now, he wants to sell his pieces. If you want to talk with him, let me know and I'll send his e-mail address. Middle man making no profit, not even a sample to keep, Randy Korotev Randy Korotev Saint Louis, MO koro...@wustl.edu __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Fwd: MOHAVE NATIONAL PRESERVE / CIMA / 111709 IMPACT
Anybody know anything about this one? Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 11:28:23 -0800 Subject: MOHAVE NATIONAL PRESERVE / CIMA / 111709 IMPACT From: JASON SCHROTBERGER schr...@gmail.com To: koro...@wustl.edu koro...@wustl.edu My name is Jason Schrotberger and I am a resident of Arizona. Just wondering if you had heard of a meteor strike in the above mentioned area of California. I witnessed the impact and resulting orange flash/explosion at approximately 2300 hrs. during the leonid shower. The flash was seen for hundreds of miles. Information only, not sure if you are interested in the impacts as well as meteors. You can contact me at schr...@gmail.com. if you have any questions. __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] earth rocks that contain nickel
Mike: I have some plots here of Ni concentrations in Earth rocks compared to meteorites: http://meteorites.wustl.edu/metcomp/ni.htm All the white symbols are Earth rocks; the colored and black symbols are meteorites. Chondrites start at 10,000 ppm (=1.0%). Irons aren't plotted, but they'd start at 50,000 ppm (5%) Ni. The small white circles are data for a suite of geostandards from around the world - typical rocks ground up by some agency like the USGS or foreign equivalent for use as inter-laboratory standards. The large white circles are data for rocks people have contacted me about and then followed my advice and had them analyzed. Some of the geostandards reach 2500 ppm, about one quarter of what a low-Ni chondrite would have. These rocks are all what geologists would call ultramafic rocks - peridotites, dunites, and serpentinite (a metamorphosed peridotite or dunite). One is a platinum ore. I don't have data for nickel ores. I suppose they'd be higher yet in Ni. The one thing these rocks all have in common is a high proportion of olivine. Peridotites and dunites are denser than most common rocks, ~3.3 g/cm^3, except iron-oxide rocks. The DMG nickel test is very sensitive. I've gotten positive responses from metals with only ~1000 ppm Ni, much lower than in meteoritic metal. So, I suppose that a dunite might test positive if first hit with a bit of acid to release some nickel from the olivine. Keep in mind that Ni-rich meteorites are rich in Ni because they contain (or once contained) Fe-Ni metal. The Earth rocks contain Ni because ionic (= nonmetallic) Ni substitutes for Fe in the olivine. Note that many achondrites (HED, lunar, martian) have Ni in the range of terrestrial rocks. That's because they don't have (much) FeNi metal. Randy Korotev At 16:11 16-11-09 Monday, Mike Hankey wrote: Dear List, With all the recent attention put on newbies I thought now would be the perfect time to ask something stupid. My Question: What Earth rocks naturally contain nickel? The reason I ask is I have found some rocks that test positive for nickel. I have used the Nickel allergy test, the cotton swab turned pink and stayed pink for more than 5 minutes. When researching this nearly every source I have found says nickel inside of earth rocks is very rare and a good sign for positive meteorite identification. The rock in question: - has a black crust (not as nice as I would expect), - it has a bulk density of 3.6, - it has shiny, small metal flakes on inside - it is magnetic, - it does not leave a streak - it tests positive for nickel - it is not slag (no vesicles, stony gray interior) I do not think this is a meteorite because the interior looks like ingenious rock and I have not been able to find meteorite pictures that look similar. So what I'm really trying to do is get a list of earth rocks together that do contain nickel so that I can ID it off of one of them (and ignore it in the future if I come across it again). I have read this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel and the samples on that page, limonite, garnierite, pentlandite don't seem to match up with what I have here. Here is a picture of the rock in question: http://www.mikesastrophotos.com/rocks/nickel-rock.jpg Thanks, Mike From University of Washington 'Gallery of meteor wrongs...' With a few rare and well known exceptions, naturally occurring terrestrial rock do not contain iron metal or iron-nickel metal. There are two reasons. First, early in Earth's history the iron-nickel metal sank to form the Earth's core. Second, any metal that did not sink has oxidized (rusted) over Earth's long history. The Earth's environment is far more oxidizing (oxygen atmosphere and water) than space, where meteorites originate. Earth rocks do contain iron and nickel, but only in oxidized (non-metallic) form. Therefore, if you find a rock that contains iron-nickel metal, it's probably a meteorite. That sounds simple, but there are two problems. First, many people find slags and other by-products of metal manufacturing. Some of the samples that have been brought to us may have been from forges or blacksmith shops that are more than 100 years old (see meteorwrongs 026, 027, 061, 065, 070, 075, 093, and 122). Others appear to fall from the sky for unknown reasons (see Getafe). Metal in slags and industrial by-products is mostly iron. Such materials will probably contain little nickel (much less than 1%). So, if you can determine that the sample has little or no nickel, then the sample is not a meteorite. The second problem is that some minerals in terrestrial rocks look like metal but are not. All that glitters is not metal. Many rocks contain small grains of sulfide minerals like pyrite (fool's gold) or micas that are finely disseminated and shiny. I've had many people tell me, But, it contains metal! when there really isn't any. Clue: If there are shiny bits in it but it's not magnetic
Re: [meteorite-list] TKW of all Lunar meteorites? Martians?
Does anyone know the TKW of all lunar meteorites? The Metbase lists only 38 approved lunar meteorites, is this still correct? It lists 129, but each stone has a number. 65 is our best guess at the number of actual meteorites when pairings are taken into account (includes some that are not yet official). http://meteorites.wustl.edu/lunar/moon_meteorites_list_alumina.htm http://meteorites.wustl.edu/lunar/moon_meteorites_list_alpha.htm Anyone know a good resource for statistics on lunar meteorites? See also the mass bar chart here: http://meteorites.wustl.edu/lunar/moon_meteorites.htm Is this info available for Martians also? The most up-to-date info is here: http://www.imca.cc/mars/martian-meteorites-list.htm Randy Korotev Saint Louis, MO koro...@wustl.edu __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] searching for the correct terminology
For meteorites exposed a long time in deserts, one of the processes is ablation or abrasion by the wind - sand-blasting. Omanian lunars seldom have fusion crusts. Look at the Dhofars 461 and 465 here: http://meteorites.wustl.edu/lunar/stones/dhofar0026.htm If you handed those rocks to a geologist, she'd say, on the basis of the 3-sided shapes, those are ventifacts, not, those are meteorites. Omanian meteorites have been getting smaller with time! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ventifact Scientists who've studied the Dar al Gani field in Libya say that one of the reasons for the preservation is that the wind-blown sand is from carbonate rock (soft), not quartz (hard). The meteorites in the Dhofar photos above appear to be sitting on carbonate desert pavements, but I have to conclude that there's a source of quartz sand somewhere. Even in Antarctica, meteorite fusion crust is lost to wind ablation, even though there's little sand in the wind. All meteorite collection places in Antarctica are places where the katabatic winds are blowing so hard that snow does not accumulate and the ice is being ablated by the wind at the rate of a few inches per year. At 12:04 2009-09-11 Friday, you wrote: You will probably think I am a bit off the latch with this question but here goes anyway... In the world of meteorite terminology, is there a term or word which describes the loss of fusion crust (by forces of nature) from stony meteorites. 'Spalling' possibly? The loss of crust, part or all, seems to be a rather common occurrence especially for some of the more friable stonys. With the crust gone, the stone is 'denuded'? Mike in CO Randy Korotev Saint Louis, MO koro...@wustl.edu __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Lunar question
Randy, far be it from me to put words in your fingers, but I recall in an earlier (a year or two ago) post from you on lunar regolith breccias, you mentioned that in a lunar breccia, the clasts are more or less randomly sized, while in most terrestrial breccias, the clasts are mostly of similar sizes because of wind, water, or gravity sorting them. (Correct me if I'm wrong with this addition to your list.) Darren: Yes, I should have mentioned that. Most terrestrial sedimentary rocks are what sedimentologists call sorted. All grains in a certain size range are deposited at the same distance from the shoreline. But, with no wind and water and little gravity, the fragmental material on the surface of an asteroid or the Moon is not sorted. There's a continuum from small to big. I think of a lunar regolith of fragmental breccia as being fractal - it doesn't make any difference what scale you're look at. It always looks the same. Unfortunately, terrestrial volcaniclastic rocks are also not well sorted. Randy Korotev __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Lunar question
Dennis: I might be able to answer your question, but I need to understand the question better. Do you mean breccia basalt as opposed to just breccia? Most lunar meteorites are breccias, but only a few of the breccias are basaltic. Most basaltic lunar meteorites are not breccias; they're unbrecciated basalts. Did you follow that? In my opinion, in the absence of a fusion crust it's impossible to identify a lunar meteorite just by looking, and I've seen practically all of them. I have bought or been sent about 4 alleged lunar meteorites from experienced collectors and dealers in the past 5 years that turned out to be terrestrial rocks, eucrites, or howardites. I've seen some lunar meteorites, most notably the Kalahari stones, that don't look anything like a moon rock or a any kind of meteorite. Some, if not many, terrestrial basalts look like martian and lunar basaltic meteorites. So far, none of the lunar or martian basaltic meteorites are as vesicular as are many terrestrial basalts, but lack of vesicles sure doesn't make it a planetary meteorite. A chemical or mineralogical analysis is neede to distiguish among terrestrial, martian, lunar, and asteroidal basalts. They're are some kinds of terrestrial rocks that strongly resemble lunar breccias. Several people have sent me ignimbrites (alias ash-flow tuffs or, more generically, volcaniclastic rocks) that look like lunar breccias. There are also types of sedimentary processes on earth that can lead to impact-breccia look-alikes. http://meteorites.wustl.edu/meteorwrongs/m118.htm http://meteorites.wustl.edu/meteorwrongs/m151.htm http://meteorites.wustl.edu/meteorwrongs/m156.htm http://meteorites.wustl.edu/meteorwrongs/m159.htm http://meteorites.wustl.edu/meteorwrongs/m195.htm http://meteorites.wustl.edu/meteorwrongs/m200.htm http://meteorites.wustl.edu/meteorwrongs/m216.htm http://meteorites.wustl.edu/meteorwrongs/m219.htm http://meteorites.wustl.edu/meteorwrongs/m225.htm http://meteorites.wustl.edu/meteorwrongs/m235.htm http://meteorites.wustl.edu/meteorwrongs/m237.htm see this one, especially http://meteorites.wustl.edu/meteorwrongs/m260.htm http://meteorites.wustl.edu/meteorwrongs/m279.htm Some porphyritic basalts resemble lunar breccias to the untrained eye. http://meteorites.wustl.edu/meteorwrongs/m086.htm http://meteorites.wustl.edu/meteorwrongs/m129.htm http://meteorites.wustl.edu/meteorwrongs/m259.htm With regard to the breccias, here are some things to look for: Aspect ratios of clasts in lunar breccias are practically never greater than 3 to 1. There is practically no preferred orientation of clasts in a lunar (or asteroidal) breccia. Preferred orientation requires gravity (or flow, which might happen in an impact-melt breccia, but is rare). Clasts are mostly angular, with only a bit of rounding on some. All rounding is caused by impact abrasion, which isn't nearly as efficient as rocks being tumbled by moving water. Clasts don't have rims and cores of any kind, except maybe from terrestrial weathering processes. If a clast is layered, it's not from the Moon. Layered rocks require gravity and air or water. Lunar breccias are remarkably uncolorful - just shades of gray. Nearly all the lunar meteorites from Oman are stained by hematite, however, causing reddish regions. The NWA stones (interior) are less colorful. Clast in lunar breccias never have geometric shapes like prisms, rectangles, etc. Most brecciated lunar meteorites are regolith breccias. These often have white clasts of anorthosite in a dark matrix of lithified soil. Impact melt and granulitic breccias are rarer and are remarkably unremarkable (sawn surface). Hope this helps. Randy Korotev At 10:38 04-09-09 Friday, you wrote: Good Morning All... I have a rather novice question: What is the identifying tag or indicator that differentiates a Lunar breccia basalt from a terrestrial breccia? I have cut and examined several that I have found, and not knowing the difference, made coasters out of them... I know you guys that run to Morocco to purchase them, from time to time, have a good idea without taking a lab with you Thanks! Dennis Miller Sorry, nothing to give away, but bare with me. Oh, I did give one of my non-lunar coasters to Haag. Randy Korotev Saint Louis, MO koro...@wustl.edu __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter - Apollo 14 landing site
Check this out: http://lroc.sese.asu.edu/news/?archives/91-Trail-of-Discovery-at-Fra-Mauro.html Click on the middle image, preferably on on a big screen Randy Korotev Saint Louis, MO koro...@wustl.edu __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Question Martian in 3-D
Carl et al. Regarding the Block Island meteorite on Mars... I asked Why does it have regmaglypts? of our local Mars expert, Ray Arvidson, who is Deputy Principal Investigator of the Mars Exploration Rover Mission. He had mentioned the existence of the meteorite to me several weeks ago. He said that the fall happened 4 billion years ago, when Mars had a more substantial atmosphere. This makes sense to me because we've never seen a meteorite this size on the Moon. On the Moon meteoroids impact at several tens of kilometers per second, and vaporize. In order to survive as a whole rock, Block Island must have been decelerated by an atmosphere. (I'm sure that meteoroids hitting Mars are impacting at lower velocities than those hitting Earth-Moon, but I don't know the numbers.) The area where the meteorite was found is a deflation surface - like Roosevelt Co., NM, and places in Antarctica. It was buried for a long time and then exposed when the dust blew away. They know it's a deflation surface because the surface is young - the crater count is very low. Only after writing the above did I find some 3D glasses and actually looked at the image. Most of the holes don't look so much like regmaglypts to me. Maybe some are chemical weathering features. There will probably be some more info about this meteorite coming out later. Ray said that there is a great interest on what kind of chemical reactions it's experienced. Randy Korotev Washington University At 11:54 07-08-09 Friday, you wrote: Pete, List, Very interesting photo. I have a question about it's morphology? Why does it look like that? Why does it have so many holes / dents? Given the atmosphere on Mars being so thin compared with Earth, I thought Earths Atmosphere is what caused this type of erosion of surface materials? It was my understanding that the material ablated away as it passed through the atmosphere . If that is so then why does it look the same on Mars. Is it possible that maybe it already looked like this before it entered Mars' atmosphere? Just curious. -- Carl or Debbie Esparza IMCA 5829 Meteoritemax Pete Pete rsvp...@hotmail.com wrote: Hi, all, An incredible view of a Martian iron in fine detail! (note the full resolution link) http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/mer/images/mer20090806.html http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/mer/images/mer20090806.html It suggests red/green, but red/blue works fine. Cheers, Pete _ Stay in the loop and chat with friends, right from your inbox! http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9671354 __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Apollo 11 Moon Rocks Photo
It's an impact-glass spherule. There's another one to the right, just right of center. It's got a soil coating. Any handful of lunar soil is loaded with these things. Most are in the 0.1-mm range. The biggest I've seen is 2 mm, but I think there's one of ~2 centimeters in the Apollo collection. See this: http://meteorites.wustl.edu/lunar/rlk_5325_apollo11_l.jpg http://meteorites.wustl.edu/lunar/regolith_breccia.htm I suppose they're the lunar equivalent of tektites. Randy Korotev (the guy who took the photo) At 14:07 17-07-09 Friday, you wrote: Hi List, Just ran across this article and photo... Everyone loves photos of moon rocks right?! Moon Rocks Photo http://news-info.wustl.edu/pub/libs/images/usr/8422_h.jpg Article: Apollo 11 moon rocks still crucial 40 years later, say WUSTL researchers http://news-info.wustl.edu/news/page/normal/14375.html What's the little round black sphere in the upper left of the photo? Is that some sort of meteoritic spheroid? -- Regards, Eric Wichman Meteorites USA http://www.meteoritesusa.com 904-236-5394 __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] WHO IS THE BEST AND MOST SUCCESSFUL METEORITE HUNTER OUT THERE?
If we're counting rocks, then the answer is John Schutt of ANSMET (followed closely by Cassidy and Harvey, as Jeff mentioned): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Schutt http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/25/sports/othersports/25outdoors.html He's been doing this since 1980 and probably has personally found 10-20% of the ANSMET collection. The Wikipedia stub doesn't begin to do this guy justice. Every year he has to make sure some newbie-lab-scientist-volunteer doesn't do something stupid. In 1988, I almost lost my snowmobile over a cliff. I parked it, not knowing that it didn't have a brake. It succumbed to gravity and headed downhill. John ran after it, tackled it, and prevented it from going over the edge. The guy can spot and classify meteorites from 100 meters. Randy Korotev __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Anyone know a 'Jude Noonan'?
Dear Marco: I have been contacted ~30 times over the last year by someone at that e-mail address who identifies himself as James Rice. He sends lots of photos of things he identifies as imbedded spherules, lapilli, fusion crust, and widmanstatten in his rocks, which he claims are from Amsterdam. I urged him to get a chemical analysis of his rocks. He did, and he is now combing the lunar literature. He has found irrelevant similarities in concentrations of some trace elements in his samples and some lunar meteorites. He completely ignores my interpretation of his data - The composition is consistent with massive iron oxide (hematite?) with a little quartz, limestone, and maybe clay. I've told him several times that the rocks are not meteorites. He's one of those guys who just keeps looking for evidence in favor of his hypothesis while ignoring the evidence against it. I don't respond to inquiries any more, so I guess that's why he's contacted you! Randy Korotev At 10:04 26-06-09 Friday, you wrote: Hi, Anyone here getting mails from a 'Jude Noonan', e-mail bonk...@hotmail.com ? He/she sent me pictures and apparent geochemical descriptions of a stone, claimed to have been found in Amsterdam. He alternately suggests it is an impact rock or a moon rock. The whole is very fishy. However, in many ways it reminds me of that Swedish dude Lindfors who naged us a while ago. So I wonder whether he is at it again, under another name. - Marco - Dr Marco (asteroid 183294) Langbroek Dutch Meteor Society (DMS) e-mail: d...@marcolangbroek.nl http://www.dmsweb.org http://www.marcolangbroek.nl - __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Goran Lindfors
Several list members have contacted me saying that they recieved a message from Mr. Goran Lindfors of Sweden staing that I had done a chemical analysis of his alleged lunar meteorites showing [them] to be of perfect Lunar origin !!! Here's the full story: http://meteorites.wustl.edu/meteorwrongs/m098.htm Bottom line: The chemical composition of Mr. Lindfors rocks is perfectly consistent with a terrestrial origin but totally inconsistent with a lunar origin. ~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+ Randy L. Korotev Research Professor Washington University in Saint Louis Department of Earth Planetary Sciences Everything you need to know about lunar meteorites: http://meteorites.wustl.edu/lunar/moon_meteorites.htm __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Wierd Meteorite Wrong Question?
Adam: It has some resemblance to a hematite concretion: http://meteorites.wustl.edu/id/concretions.htm The color is right, but the texture is not. Do a streak test: http://meteorites.wustl.edu/id/streak.htm Randy At 12:14 06-04-09 Monday, you wrote: Dear List Members, We went on a Mojave Desert hunt this weekend where I found this weird stone. My questions is, does anybody have a clue to what type of rock this may be? The reason I am asking the list is that several hunters have thousands of hours in the Mojave whereas I only have a couple of hundred and they may have seen something like it before. It is very dense, has surface contraction cracks and is not attracted to a powerful magnet at all. It does look like a crust but not like anything I have ever seen before. I have never observed a gray crust on a meteorite is what is convincing me that it is terrestrial. I have never seen surface contraction cracks on a terrestrial rock that did not penetrate the whole stone. We must have hiked 20 miles and I did not come across anything similar. We thought it was a meteorite when we first saw it in situ but now are not convinced. I do not want to cut it if it is not a meteorite because it would be one of the best wrongs I have ever seen. On the other hand, if there is any chance whatsoever that it could be the first North American Lunar, I would cut it in a heartbeat. Maybe, I am just dreaming but I am convinced that within the next 10 years, some lucky hunter will find one. Images of the stone: Image 1 http://themeteoritesite.com/Achondrite-1.jpg Image 2 http://themeteoritesite.com/Achondrite-2.jpg Any input would be greatly appreciated. Best Regards, Adam __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Question Calcalong Creek Crust?
Adam: I like it! When you cut it, send me 100-200 mg! Several of those lunar meteorites that are regolith breccias have vesicular fusion crusts. http://meteorites.wustl.edu/lunar/stones/alha81005.htm http://meteorites.wustl.edu/lunar/stones/que93069.htm http://meteorites.wustl.edu/lunar/stones/que94281.htm http://meteorites.wustl.edu/lunar/stones/yamato791197.htm http://meteorites.wustl.edu/lunar/stones/calcalong.htm I'm not aware of examples among the NWA and Dhofar meteorites, but the fusion crusts on many of these have been destroyed, and a vesicular crust is particularly vulnerable to destruction by wind ablation. The lunar regolith is loaded with solar-wing implanted gases (which penetrate only to a depth of few microns right at the moon-space interface) because the fine grained stuff has lots of surface area, it's gardened by micrometeorite impacts on the Moon so new stuff is constantly exposed to the surface, the Moon is close to the sun (compared to most asteroids), and the lunar regolith is thicker because the Moon has more gravity than an asteroid. These gases are released when the meteoroid is heated as it comes through the Earth's atmosphere. Some eucrites and howardites, I believe, are regolith breccias. I don't know enough about these guys to know if any have vesicular fusion crusts, but if they do, they're not likely to be as highly vesicular as the those of lunar meteorites. Randy Korotev At 17:46 28-01-09 Wednesday, you wrote: Dear list Members, I was wondering if anybody had any close-up images of Calcalong Creek? A strange meteorite? with a brownish crust loaded with vesicles was found in some small Millbillillie Eucrites and sent to me some time ago. I know this is how Bob Haag found his lunar rock. I decided to take a chance on it and gave the finder a nominal fee. I came across it again while going through one of my safes and decided it was worth investigating some more. It only weighs 1.89 grams so I do not want to cut it just yet. I saw the images on Randy Korotev's site and they look similar. I try not to judge too much on a single image. Here is an image of the crust on this object: http://themeteoritesite.com/Lunar-b.jpg Best Regards, Adam __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] AD - Buzzard Coulee
Collectors: A couple of days ago I was contacted by telephone by Mr. Warren Wiley of Saskatchewan. (Why me?) He told me that he'd found the second largest stone of the Dec. 2 fireball and that he wanted to sell it. He seems to be a nice fellow, so I offered to pass his information along to the meteorite list, which was OK with him. He does not have Internet access. A friend of his sent a message this morning with the following text and some attached photos, which I've posted on this website: http://artsci.wustl.edu/~rlkorote/warren/ Mr Wiley's text: This specimen is from the Buzzard Coulee near Lone Rock, Saskatchewan. This is an immaculate masterpiece of atmospheric sculpting. Heavily regmaglyphed, aesthetic specimen. Found December 2, 2008, 35 minutes after sundown. I have video documentation of my 4 day search; where I found it, and associate professor, Alan Hildebrand, coming to our house to authenticate. Alan Hildebrand and other scientists have completed the lab analysis on my chondrite, and it is an (H 3/4) chondrite. Warren Wiley (owner) is putting it up for bids, serious inquiries only. Contact Warren at 1-780-842-4858. Please do not contact me about this offer. I'm just the messenger and I won't respond to enquiries about this issue. I'm only doing this because I wanted to see the photos. Randy Korotev Saint Louis, MO koro...@wustl.edu __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] question on performing a nickel test
Mike: I've had the same experience. The problem, I think, is that the DMG test is actually TOO sensitive to nickel. All meteoritic metal is 5% (50,000 ppm) Ni. Metals with only a few hundred ppm Ni will give a positive result with DMG test, however. I think many steels and cast irons may have a few hundred ppm Ni. This subject came up a few years ago on this list and someone (I forget who) mentioned that in his experience, the swab stayed pink quite a bit longer with a real meteorite metal while the pink faded in an hour with false positives. Randy Korotev At 14:09 19-12-08 Friday, you wrote: Hi List, If someone has experience with the Allerderm Nickel test and wouldn't mind sharing their knowledge of how to do it... I am attempting to do a nickel test at home here and I ran into a bit of a snag. I have a piece of iron that most likely is not a piece of meteoritic iron that I was using as a test piece. I sanded a surface on it, cleaned it with alcohol several times, got out the trusty Allertest NI test kit from Allerderm, placed a drop each of the little bottles onto a cotton swab, and placed that on the cleaned surface of the metal. Using this piece of iron as a control piece, I wanted to be sure I wasn't doing something in the steps I was using that would cause me to get a false positive. On this test - test, the swab turned pink quickly. If I do the exact steps only add in placing a drop of white vinegar on the cleaned surface, wait a couple minutes and then apply the nickel test, I get almost a blood red swab in just the first second. The first time I did this test and saw this, I thought I had contaminated the surface so I sanded it again down to a fresh surface, cleaned it several times again with alcohol before attempting the nickel test without vinegar. Second time, same result. When using a drop of vinegar again, same result - blood red quickly. What am I doing wrong, if anything? Could I still have contamination on the metal that the sanding and cleaning with alcohol is not removing? Mike in CO __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] another reason why you shouldn't leave meteorites in your car
http://www.wtvr.com/global/video/flash/popupplayer.asp?ClipID1=3010604h1=Exclusive%3A%20Device%20Found%20At%20Airport%20Wasn%27t%20An%20Explosivevt1=vat1=Newsd1=157067LaunchPageAdTag=Search%20ResultsactivePane=infornd=82665900 Randy Korotev Saint Louis, MO [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] A question about an iron fleck in NWA 2977 Lunar
Dear Zelimir: Schreibersite (an iron-nickel phosphide) occurs in iron meteorites and it also occurs in some lunar impact-melt breccias, particularly those from Apollo 16. There is evidence that a subset of the Apollo 16 impact-melt breccias was formed by impact of an iron meteorite (the breccias contain 0.5-2.0% metal, which is quite a lot), so it is no surprise that the breccias contain schreibersite associated with metal blebs. I should emphasize that the metal was melted and part of the mainly-silicate impact melt. The metal resolidified as tiny blebs as the melt cooled. So, the breccias do not actually contain fragments of iron meteorite. The silicate melt was moderately rich in phosphorous, so it's been argued that most of the P in lunar schreibersite is from the Moon whereas the Fe and Ni are from the impactor. Schreibersite can only form under reducing conditions, like on the Moon. NWA 5000 is the only lunar meteorite of which I'm aware for which schreibersite has been reported (A. Irving and S. Kuehner, in MetBull writeup): http://tin.er.usgs.gov/meteor/metbull.php?sea=nwa+5000sfor=namesants=falls=stype=containslrec=50map=gebrowse=country=Allsrt=namecateg=Allmblist=Allphot=snew=0pnt=nocode=45986 That's no surprise because NWA 5000 is loaded with FeNi metal of meteoritic origin (that is, ASTEROIDAL meteoritic origin). Another lunar meteorite where I might expect schreibersite is NWA 4936 because that meteorite is a (and the only) compositional match to Apollo 16 soil, including high concentrations of siderophile (metal-loving) elements like Ni, Ir, and Au. I suspect the meteorite comes from near the Apollo 16 site and, therefore, likely contains a small component of the same iron meteorite that is found in Apollo 16 rocks and soil. The NWA 773 clan of meteorites is one of the last places I'd expect schreibersite because the breccia portions that we've analyzed are low in Ir and, we infer, low in metal. But, FeNi metal has been observed in NWA 773, so I can imagine that if one looks hard enough, there may be some schreibersite. As it turns out, I was unaware of NWA 3186 until your message. I checked with Ted Bunch, who classified the stone and submitted the writeup to the Nomenclature Committee (not A. Greshake). I just added the stone to my lunar meteorite list, along with a great photo taken by Stefan Ralew and Martin Altmann (I hope they don't mind!). http://meteorites.wustl.edu/lunar/stones/nwa0773.htm I don't know whether schreibersite in lunar meteorites differs in composition from schreibersite in OC's. Randy Korotev At 16:26 12-08-08 Tuesday, you wrote: Dear Randy list, Randy, I fully appreciated your very explicit statement regarding metallic phases in lunars. This is actually important and fundamental regarding the orgin of metal or the history of lunar meteorites (and other) and I am surprised of the lack of reactions. I have here a comment and a couple of questions Comment: I recently got (from the team Altmann/Ralew - Chladni'd Heirs) 2 small pieces of NWA 3186, still not officially approved by the NomCom but said to be a lunar olivine gabbro (classified by Greshake in Berlin) and suspected (at least by me but also by others) to be probably paired with NWA 773, 2727, and possibly the others ofthe series. The texture (from the sections cut and polished on my 0.753 g and 1.132 g fragments) fully resembles the pics shown on your link. Well I carefully examined these sections under a simple 40x magnification (binocular with light oriented so as to have metallic reflexions favored). On the largest section (1.132 g piece) I clearly detected an about 0.3 mm Schreibersite area, possibly along with a couple of 10 times smaller such spots). This schreibersite (identified visually, thus through its special color/shade, by comparison with the same mineral observed on many other meteorite sections) is observed on the black breccia surface portion (about 60%, the other 40% being almost pure olivine as in the paired NWA's). I neither observed more schreibersite on the other piece, nor on my 0.277 g NWA 2977 slice (pure olivine-like texture), nor on any other of my other 14 lunar samples. On examining all my lunar samples, just DAG 400 (lunar anorthosic breccia) clearly showed about 30-35 very tiny metallic spots (contamination totally excluded), that have the usual typical shade of the Fe,Ni metallic spots in most meteorites (steel-gray). 2 small questions: - Did you ever observe screibersite domains on lunar meteorites (won't be a surprise if schreibersite originates from the impactor) and, if so, would the (Fe,NI,Co) phosphide be also be richer in Ni than, say, schreibersite found on other oc's ? - Speculating that you for sure well know that NWA 3186, could you confirm it is also be paired with the others mentioned above ? Thanks much for any comment or answer. Best wishes to all, Zelimir Randy Korotev
[meteorite-list] A question about an iron fleck in NWA 2977 Lunar
Dear Tom: All brecciated lunar meteorites contain some FeNi metal (1%), but you may have to look hard in some. (In others, like NWA 5000, you don't have to look hard at all.) The metal derives from impacts of asteroidal meteorites with the Moon. If the meteorite is an impact-melt breccia, the metal probably melted and resolidified on the Moon. Regolith breccias, on the other hand, may contain FeNi metal that hasn't been highly reprocessed. http://meteorites.wustl.edu/lunar/stones/nwa0773.htm NWA 2977, however, isn't a breccia. It's an igneous rock (a cumulate olivine gabbro), if your sample is like mine. Lunar igneous rocks contain very small amounts of metal, but the metal is indigenous to the Moon and doesn't have the composition of meteoritic metal. I see that one report on NWA 733 (almost-for-sure a pair to NWA 2977) did mention grains of Fe,Ni metal also occur in residual pockets but are rare. Another says Metal grains occur in very small masses with troilite and are Ni-rich (55.5 wt.% Ni, 40.9% Fe, 1.5% Co, 0.03% P). That composition isn't meteoritic (in meteorites, the Ni/Co ratio is nearly always in the 10-24 range). When you say The thin [section] is polished to 1/4 micron, do you mean the section is only 1/4 micron thick (amazing!) or the final polish was done with 1/4 micron abrasive? In a standard thin section (30-35 microns), metal is totally opaque, so I don't see how it shows up in polarized light (?) How does it look in reflected light? Sincerely, Randy Korotev At 17:41 09-08-08, you wrote: Hi list, I had a question about an iron fleck I found in a thin section of NWA 2977 Lunar. Jim Strope sent it to me. I plan to use this as next months Meteorite Times Micro Vision and want to be accurate. The thin is polished to 1/4 micron. This sometimes has the same effect as etching but on a much finer scale. I have observed it in other materials that get this kind of polish. There is a fleck of iron in this material. In this fleck is what looks like micro Widmanstatten pattern. Can this pattern be called Widmanstatten? If not, are the creation processes the same as with full sized Widmanstatten? How would it be still present in a lunar? Could the pattern survive a meteor collision with the moon and not be heated to the point of destruction? I would like to email micrographs to any one who is interested or, even better, might have the answers. The images are taken in incident cross polarized light and I am using a Glan/Thompson style polarizer that allows me near total extinction. I pull up the changes in the pattern by slight rotation of the polarizer. The magnification of these images is 1600X. Thanks, Tom Phillips __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] GRA 06128/9 = brachinite
The confusion here is that the original O-isotope data, the data published in the original announcement, are NOT consistent with brachinites, whereas newer data in the Rumble et al. abstract (#1974) and Zeigler et al. (#2456) abstract that Adam mentions below ARE consistent with brachinites. One of several peculiar things about GRA 06128/9 is a high abundance of calcium phosphate minerals (chlorapatite, Na-merrillite) that are heterogeneously scattered about the stones. The original announcement did not mention these, apparently because there were no phosphates in the thin sections first examined. As I understand it, high phosphate abundance can cause an error in oxygen isotope measurements if the sample is not first treated properly. The sample analyzed by Doug Rumble for abstracts #1974 #2456 was treated with acid to dissolve the phosphates, so we think the resulting O isotope data are more accurate. Of the various abstracts about this meteorite, only the two mentioned in Adam's message below had access to Doug Rumble's new-and-improved data, so these are the only two that make the brachinite connection.* Earth's moon has a feldspathic crust because feldspar floated to the top of the lunar magma ocean after much of the olivine and pyroxene crystallized and sunk. We argue in Zeigler et al. that GRA 06128/9 is from the heretofore unseen feldspathic (oligoclase) crust (flotation cumulate) of the brachinite parent body. To me, the lesson for finders and collectors is that had this meteorite not had a fusion crust, only the most astute would have recognized it as a meteorite, given the bizarre mineralogy. Randy Korotev * For scientists, the Lunar Planetary Science Conference and the Annual Meeting of the Meteoritical Society are the equivalent of the Tucson GM Show. We keep our little secrets to ourselves until we submit the abstracts so that we can scoop our colleagues. At 23:52 27-02-08 Wednesday, you wrote: Hi Sterling and List, This abstract clearly states that GRA 06128/9 oxygen isotopes plot with the Brachinites: http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2008/pdf/2456.pdf This abstract actually has a nice plot clearly showing GRA 06128/9 plotting dead center with the Brachinites: http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2008/pdf/1974.pdf I understand that the mineralogy is different from Brachinites, but its parent body group been identified as far as I am concerned. NWA 3133 was instrumental in demonstrating that finding groups for orphaned stones using oxygen isotope plotting for parent-body provenance purposes is feasible. This is the only reason why I can see the metachondrite issue coming up in the case of GRA 06128/9 which seems to be more evolved. A neat stone, yes, but the outrageous claims that it is more fantastic than other equally interesting meteorites holds no water with me. Whatever is claimed for the parent body for this stone also applies to Brachinites. Just my thoughts, Best Regards, Adam __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] NWA material (you can't tell just by looking)
I have been fortunate to have seen, photographed, and chemically analyzed practically every lunar meteorite that has ever been found. I still can't identify a lunar meteorite just by looking at it, however, and I believe that no one else can, either. I know that some terrestrial rocks from northwest Africa have been sold as lunar meteorites: http://meteorites.wustl.edu/meteorwrongs/m237.htm I myself bought an alleged lunar meteorite from an experienced and respected European dealer who must, I assume, have obtained it from a local dealer or finder. The sample turned out to be a howardite. I'm willing to believe that the local dealers perhaps believed these various stones were lunar meteorites. Nevertheless, they clearly didn't do the obvious, as Greg suggests, and submit a type specimen for an expert to verify first. For what it's worth, I have never been sent a sample of a lunar meteorite by a northwest African dealer with a request to verify its authenticity. caveat emptor, Randy Korotev At 21:49 26-12-07 Wednesday, Greg Hupe wrote: Hi Tim, My point is that Aziz is advertising a 90g Lodranite Breccia for sale. I asked simple questions that had nothing to do with the broad NWA unclassified market. How does he know it is a Lodranite? What lab classified it? Did he (Aziz) submit the proper type sample (18 grams in this case)? Respectfully, Greg __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Barringer blast effects
There are some interesting abstracts about Meteor Crater and the impactor for the Meteoritical Society Meeting to be held in 2 weeks in Tucson: http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/metsoc2007/pdf/5145.pdf http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/metsoc2007/pdf/5264.pdf http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/metsoc2007/pdf/5074.pdf Whole volume http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/metsoc2007/pdf/program.pdf Randy Korotev __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Cali chondrite fell extremely cold!
At 14:24 29-07-07 Sunday, you wrote: There isn't any scientifically documented instances (that I know of) where meteorites have cause fires. Here's one such documented story about simultaneous ground fires associated with a meteor: http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2002/pdf/1882.pdf The authors are cautious about ascribing cause and effect. Randy Korotev Saint Louis, MO [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] lunar meteorites from the farside
don't know which ones. Recently, some colleagues have been claiming that Dhofar 489 (and its many pairs) IS from the farside. (David Weir listed some abstracts yesterday.) In my opinion, their logic is faulty (Korotev et al., 1996). Dhofar 489 COULD come from the farside, but the probability is no more likely than that for any other feldspathic lunar meteorite. We have good reason to believe that the surface of the Moon is contaminated to varying degrees by thorium that has been redistributed from the PKT by 3.9 billion years of small impacts. After all, if a small impact can put a Moon rock on Earth, it can also drop a rock anywhere on the lunar surface. So, if a lunar regolith (soil) breccia, all of which are made from near-surface materials, has a low concentration of Th, then I agree that it probably comes from a point very distant from the PKT, probably the farside. But, Dhofar 489 et al. is an impact-melt breccia, which was probably formed by a large impact that melted material mainly beneath the regolith. The material of Dhofar 489 was below the zone of impact mixing. A kilometer or so beneath any point in the feldspathic highlands, iron and thorium are low. So, a low-Th impact-melt breccia could come from the nearside or the farside. In fact, low-Th impact-melt breccias were found at the Apollo 16 site. So, in the particular cases of Dhofar 489 (and NWA 482, another melt breccia) the low iron and thorium concentrations are not strong arguments in favor farside origin. So, yes, Remote sensing 'suggests'... and, if you have several feldspathic lunar meteorites, particularly if you have a regolith breccia with 0.3 ppm Th, there's a real good chance that you have a farside rock. Randy Korotev References Gladman B. J., Burns J. A., Duncan M. J., Levison H. F. (1995) The dynamical evolution of lunar impact ejecta. Icarus, v. 118, p. 302-321. Gnos E., Hofmann B. A., Al-Kathiri A., Lorenzetti S., Eugster O., Whitehouse M. J., Villa I., Jull A. J. T., Eikenberg J., Spettel B., Krähenbühl U., Franchi I. A., and Greenwood G. C. (2004) Pinpointing the source of a lunar meteorite: Implications for the evolution of the Moon. Science 305, 657-659. Korotev R. L., Lindstrom M. M., Lindstrom D. J., and Haskin L. A. (1983) Antarctic meteorite ALHA81005 - Not just another lunar anorthositic norite. Geophysical Research Letters 10, 829-832. Korotev R. L., Zeigler R. A., and Jolliff B. L. (2006) Feldspathic lunar meteorites Pecora Escarpment 02007 and Dhofar 489: Contamination of the surface of the lunar highlands by post-basin impacts. Geochimica et Cosmochimica Acta 70, 5935-5956. ~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+ Randy L. Korotev phone: (314) 935-5637 Research Associate Professor fax: (314) 935-7361 Washington University in Saint Louis [EMAIL PROTECTED] Department of Earth Planetary Sciences http://epsc.wustl.edu/ Mailing addresses postal service: commercial: Randy Korotev Randy Korotev Washington University Washington University 1 Brookings DrEarth Planetary Sciences Campus Box 1169 EPS Bldg, Room 110 Saint Louis MO 63130-4899 Saint Louis MO 63130 Everything you need to know about lunar meteorites: http://meteorites.wustl.edu/lunar/moon_meteorites.htm __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] EBAY Slag for sale
I just added this entry to my MeteorWrongs web site: http://meteorites.wustl.edu/meteorwrongs/m223.htm I actually don't know much about either mesosiderites or magnetic susceptibility, so if any of you real experts out there do, please point out my errors to me. Randy Korotev At 16:33 30-06-07 Saturday, you wrote: I've just discovered that that great eBay warning site http://home.earthlink.net/~magellon/wrongs1.html is due to the efforts of the List's Ken Newton. Take a bow, Ken! From: Pete Pete [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] EBAY Slag for sale Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 17:23:54 -0400 Hi, all, Too much effort, Paul. Who has the time to spend on such a petty thief? I think that this link for wrongs on eBay should be prominent on the meteorites for sale page: http://home.earthlink.net/~magellon/wrongs1.html http://home.earthlink.net/~magellon/wrongs1.html (a thanks to whoever keeps this info updated! The slag we're talking about is already listed there as something to avoid.) ...there, and discussion on this list, is a great place for a beginner to get educated. I can see eBay's dilemma, otherwise no one would be able to sell any unclassified stone. Caveat emptor. Cheers, Pete From: Paul [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] EBAY Slag for sale Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 11:52:37 -0700 (PDT) On Jun 28 23:19:27 EDT 2007, Bill wrote: Starchasers is a good one. Meteorites falling in his general direction constantly. All new Illinois finds too. Look at his 454 GRAM IRON NICKEL METEORITE SPECIMEN. ...text deleted another person wrote: Here's another one selling common filth as expensive meteorites on eBay - with some victims making bids, too: Maybe someone should buy a couple of the least expensive items being sold by this person on eBay; have them analyzed by a couple of experts; and publish the results of the investigations in a popular article and forward the results to the proper authorities. Also, if someone living in Illinois truly believes that this or any other person living in Illinois is dealing in fake meteorites, it seems like they need to complain to the Consumer Protection Division of the Illinois Attorney General Office given that he appears to reside in Illinois. The selling multiple pieces of slag to people as meteorites for tens or hundreds of dollars, should easily qualify as felony fraud. The web page for the Consumer Protection Division of the Illinois Attorney General Office can be found at: http://www.illinoisattorneygeneral.gov/consumers/index.html Also, there is Submit Questions to the Office of the Illinois Attorney General http://www.illinoisattorneygeneral.gov/about/email_ag.jsp Maybe someone can ask the Illinois Attorney General Office if they should be doing something about this bozo? Simply griping about such people on Internet message boards is not going to accomplish anything. Maybe if they received enough complaints and questions about what can be done, the Illinois Attorney General Office might decide it is time to investigate the validity of what is being sold on eBay? Also, it seems to me that using the mails to send people fraudulent merchandise and selling such items also should violate mail and wire fraud laws, including Postal Service regulations. However, I serious doubt the authorities will do anything unless someone takes the time and trouble to complain. Talking the talk needs to be followed up with walking the walk. Best Regards, Paul Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games. http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list _ New Windows Live Hotmail is here. Upgrade for free and get a better look. www.newhotmail.ca?icid=WLHMENCA150 __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list _ Windows Live Hotmail is the next generation of MSN Hotmail. Its fast, simple, and safer than ever and best of all its still free. Try it today! www.newhotmail.ca?icid=WLHMENCA146 __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Titanium content
The rocks in question are all extrusive volcanic rocks - basalts. The Ti variation reflects that the lunar mantle is heterogeneous. The source regions where different episodes of melting occurred had to have varied considerably in ilmenite abundance. The mantle of the Moon is not well mixed. Plate tectonics did not happen on the Moon. Although the terrestrial mantle is not homogenous, it's probably more homogenous than the Moon's mantle. There is evidence for mantle overturn on the Moon. The dense mineral ilmenite crystallized from the magma ocean only after the less dense olivine had already crystallized and settled. This led to a gravitational instability where the ilmenite plunged through the olivine (inverse diapir). So, depending where melting occurs, both laterally and vertically, some magmas have more ilmenite than others. At 06:57 08-05-07 Tuesday, you wrote: Yes, Randy is correct about titanium content varying around the Moon. What are the petrological reasons why this varies? In southeast Pennsylvania, we have high titanium diabase intrusions (The York Haven intrusion) and low titanium diabase intrusions in highly folded and complex rocks which date from the precambrian. The lunar variation does not have the same cause, I am sure. But what are some of the ideas that account for the lunar variation? Francis Graham __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Moon rock?
Dear Mr. Ensor: One of the reasons that Oceanus Procellarum was chosen as the 2nd Apollo lunar landing site, Apollo 12, was to help answer the red-blue question. Astronomers had noted that some of the maria of the eastern part of the Moon were bluish and while those on the west were reddish. (I use east and west in the terrestrial sense, not the astronomical sense - east is right, west is left.) One of the surprises of Apollo 11 (Mare Tranquillitatis) was that the basalts had very high concentrations of titanium-bearing minerals - ilmenite (FeO TiO2), ülvospinel (2FeO TiO2), and armalcolite ([Fe,Mg]O 2TiO2), a new mineral that was named after the Apollo 11 astronauts. Ever since, the Apollo 11 basalts have been called high-titanium basalts (as have the basalts of Apollo 17, which were collected on the edge of Mare Serenitatis, another blue area, as you note.) The Apollo 12 basalts had much lower concentrations of Ti. In mare Tranquillitatis, the Ti minerals dominate the color, making the basalts blue. At Apollo 12, pyroxene (a Fe,Mg,Ca silicate) dominates the color, making the basalts red. The color, thus, is dictated by silicates and oxides of metals (mainly Fe and Ti), not be free metal from meteorites. Earth-based spectroscopy of the near side as well as whole-moon spectroscopy by the Clementine mission show that high-Ti basalts are really not so common on the Moon. None of the basaltic lunar meteorites are composed of the high-Ti basalts. They're all low-Ti basalts or very-low-Ti (VLT) basalts. Sincerely, Randy Korotev At 10:21 05-05-07 Saturday, you wrote: Hi all, Not far back there was a discussion on the list about iron contentent in lunar samples/meteorites and I thought this seemed related. I have just been sent this email by a friend from my local astronomy society who is into astrophotography and wondered if any knowledgable people on the list would like to comment. I have never heard of of or seen this before and thought it sounded dubious. If anyone is interested in the photograph I could email it to you. email below... Last night (29-04-07) I managed to image the moon and process it in such a way that it brought out the lunar colours signifying different types of rock on the surface. There are two images attached to this email, one is an unprocessed one (almost black and white but it is in fact a colour image!) and the second has had the colour process done on it. The images are a stack of 31 frames taken with a C8-NGT/Moonlite CR-1 and a Canon EOS300D/MPCC combination. Each single image was at 100ASA and exp was 1/200th second. To achieve the colour processed the image was neutral colour balanced so that when the saturation was adjusted it didn't favour any one colour. Once done, the saturation was increased in three stages of +30 and then in a couple stages of +10. Once the final colour balance was achieved, the image was unsharp masked and contrast adjusted to achieve the final result. Checking information on the internet, the colours signify areas of differing amounts of metal in the basalts on the Mare regions, the bluer the area the more metal, the oranger the area the less metal. Mare Tranquilitatis is very blue in comparison to neighbouring Mare Serenitatis although round the edge of Serenitatis, the metal composite is higher around the edge of the shoreline in comparison to the centre of the sea. Mare Humorum (to the lower left) displays the opposite colourations to Mare Serenitatis. Sinus Iridum, on the other hand, is very clearly low on metals and has a distinct border with Oceanus Procellarum plateau and from the processed image Mare Frigoris, on the northern edge of the lunar face, is low on metal. Graham Ensor, nr Barwell UK __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list ~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+ Randy L. Korotev phone: (314) 935-5637 Research Associate Professor fax: (314) 935-7361 Washington University in Saint Louis [EMAIL PROTECTED] Department of Earth Planetary Sciences http://epsc.wustl.edu/ Everything you need to know about lunar meteorites: http://meteorites.wustl.edu/lunar/moon_meteorites.htm __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Kalahari 008 and weathering
Doug: wt.%: Al: 14.68; Si: 20.73; Mg: 2.68; Fe: 3.5; Ca: 11.1. Those values are all consistent with lunar rocks, but also terrestrial rocks made of the same minerals - plagioclase, pyroxene, and olivine. Thanks for posting the photo and the nice web page Randy. Would you know how a weathering grade was assigned (probably there is more to this seeing it was classified at Wlotzka's Max Planck) , I wonder how much iron and FeS of the 3.5% Fe was actually available/useful to this end? W1 is statistically quite a nice rating to fall off the turnip truck, wouldn't a simple Antarctic A be more appropriate? I don't really know how they did it, but most brecciated lunar meteorites do contain grains of metal - metal from asteroidal meteorites that strike the Moon and that created the breccias in the first place. Some lunar meteorites contain a few percent chondritic material. Metal grains are there if you look for them (can't miss them with reflected light microscopy). Most of the sulfur in soils from the lunar highlands comes from meteorites. Note also that ordinary chondrites weather differently than achondrites. When iron rusts, there's a volume expansion, which forces the rock to crack, accelerating the weathering. There's not enough metal in most achondrites for that process to happen. Randy __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Lunar diamonds (was Kalahari 008 and weathering)
No diamonds have been seen, to my knowledge. The Moon contains very little carbon. Again, most of the carbon on the lunar surface comes either from carbonaceous chondrites or is implanted by solar wind. Nowhere is the C concentration high enough to make a diamond by impact pressure. Randy Korotev At 12:57 19-04-07 Thursday, you wrote: On Thu, 19 Apr 2007 11:29:59 -0500, you wrote: I don't really know how they did it, but most brecciated lunar meteorites do contain grains of metal - metal from asteroidal meteorites that strike the Moon and that created the breccias in the This makes me think of something I've been wondering about-- have any micro diamond been found in lunar materisl (either meteoritic or Apollo)? Since some large, high-speed impacts on Earth create diamonds, I'd think that they would occur much more often on the moon, where every impact is a high-speed one. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Kalahari 009 (lunar) photo
Here's a photo of the whole Kalahari 008 stone: http://meteorites.wustl.edu/lunar/stones/kalahari008.htm I don't think I would have picked it up, and I sure wouldn't have even considered that it might be a lunar meteorite. Randy Korotev At 03:40 11-04-07 Wednesday, you wrote: Hi, This has all probably been on the list before...but I was not following it at the time...so have these lunar meteorites just disappeared without trace? Has anyone ever seen photographs of the main masses and where are they now.? Have any pieces come on to the market ever? Graham Ensor, nr Barwell UK __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] This is the funniest meteorite dealer I'veseen?
The fellow who made that web site sent me photos of 112 rocks (6.6 Mbytes!) in 2005. Many of the photos he sent (all? I didn't check them all) were the same as the ones on the web site. He asked my opinion about the rocks. I gave him my opinion. He sent me chemical analyses of three of them. None of the data were consistent with meteorites. I told him that. It must be pleasant living life as an eternal optimist. Randy Korotev __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Kalahari lunar meteorite stones - photos
Incidentally, here are some photos of small slices of the Kalahari 008 and 009 lunar meteorite stones that I recieved today. http://meteorites.wustl.edu/lunar/stones/kalahari008.htm I'm unaware of any other photos. I don't know any more about this meteorite than the publicly available information. I'm surprised that the samples of the two stones look as similar to each other as they do given the differences in the descriptions. The samples sure don't jump out at me and exclaim I'm from the Moon. I can't wait to do the chemical analyses. Randy Korotev __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Kalahari lunar meteorite stones - photos
Kalhari 008, at least, appears to contain solar-wind gases. The reported textures, mineralogy, mineral compositions (including Fe/Mn), and chemical compositions are consistent with lunar origin. Only concentrations of a few elements were listed in The Meteoritical Bulletin, however. Randy Korotev At 14:58 2007-04-10 Tuesday, you wrote: Maybe I should go through my meteorite-wrong pile again. I noticed they gave it a weathering grade of 1. I thought metal had to be present in order to qualify a weathering grade and that they are generally not assigned to achondrites. The CRE age seems to be no different than a rock that spent 300 years in the desert. What makes this stone any different than a terrestrial impactite? Adam __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] good meteorwrong e-mail
I received this well-written e-mail yesterday from a woman whom I think I'd like to meet: Apropos of Meteorwrong #101 where you mention the quandary about the provenance of softball-sized terrestrial rocks that fall from the sky, I have a story that may shed light on at least one possible source. Many years ago a friend and his buddies, who were michievous lads in a rural area, found an old yoke from a lawnmower. Pondering what to do with such a find, he came up with the idea of making a giant slingshot. They found some truly huge rubber bands and collected a stash of appropriate sized stones, and they managed to rig up the device in an abandoned field outside town. They disported themselves on a fine morning by launching their missiles idly into the air until they became bored, then wandered off in search of fresh amusement. The next day, there was a story in the local paper about a mysterious hail of rocks from the sky. No one was hurt, but several cars suffered some damage. Randy Korotev __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] kiraly meteorite
An e-mail correspondent who identified himself as John Doe in his e-mail address called my attention to this web site authored by a friend: http://kiralymeteorite.com/ This one is too good to not share. The author clearly has (1) too much time on his hands, (2) a vivid imagination, and (3) not much knowledge of meteorites. You'll need Apple QuickTime, or something like it, to play the MOV file. Randy Korotev Saint Louis, MO [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] www.venusmeteorite.com - what are your opinions on this claim
Dear Mr. Gregory: At 02:34 13-02-07 Tuesday, you wrote: Simply put, what testing can definitively differentiate a rock from space and a rock from the earth? Answer: The presence of nuclides that are the products of reactions with cosmic-rays - nuclides that can only be produced in space (that is, on a body with no atmosphere). Do a Google search on cosmic ray exposure age and there's lots of info. If anyone can provide me with photos of rocks with identical characteristics to the photos on the venusmeteorite.com website or the photos I'm enclosing, I will gladly transfer $250 to your account. Trust me, you'll be saving me a ton of money and we can put this baby to bed. I don't want the $250, but I have seen photos of rocks (one in particular) that look remarkably (!) like the alleged Venusian meteorites: http://meteorites.wustl.edu/meteorwrongs/m079.htm ~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+ Randy L. Korotev Research Associate Professor Washington University in Saint Louis Department of Earth Planetary Sciences __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Goran Lindfors Lunar Meteorites
Only 20? I expressed polite skepticism 2 years ago when I put one of Mr. Lindfors' photos on my meteorwrongs web site: http://epsc.wustl.edu/admin/resources/meteorites/meteorwrongs/m098.htm Then, he used my name in support of the authenticity of his alleged lunar meteorites in some of his mailings and he actually provided some real data, so I added the update earlier this month. The data speak for themselves. At 10:15 30-10-06 Monday, you wrote: Hi , What's the deal on Goran Lindfors Lunar meteorites? He has placed 20 posts and many pictures of his lunar meteorites on the Nugget Shooter web site. If you hurry you might be able to buy one! Thanks, Sonny http://www.nuggetshooter.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=8388 ~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+ Randy L. Korotev phone: (314) 935-5637 Research Associate Professor fax: (314) 935-7361 Washington University in Saint Louis [EMAIL PROTECTED] Department of Earth Planetary Sciences http://epsc.wustl.edu/ Mailing addresses postal service: commercial: Randy Korotev Randy Korotev Washington University Washington University 1 Brookings Dr Earth Planetary Sciences Campus Box 1169 EPS Bldg, Room 110 Saint Louis MO 63130-4899 Saint Louis MO 63130 Everything you need to know about lunar meteorites: http://epsc.wustl.edu/admin/resources/moon_meteorites.html __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] looking for Dhofar 081 and 280 lunars
I am looking to acquire for destructive chemical analysis 0.2-0.3 gram samples of Dhofar 081 and 280. Please contact me off list if want have material to sell. Randy Korotev __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Meteorites on the moon
Regarding meteorites on the Moon... There is a great deal of meteoritic matter on the Moon, but very few meteorites. The two miniscule fragments that Martin Altmann mentioned are the best known ones from the Apollo collection, but I'm aware of 2 others even smaller. Virtually all meteoroids that strike the Moon either melt or vaporize on impact. If they melt, they mix with the melted silicates of the lunar target rocks. So either way, they become unidentifiable as meteorites. Lunar impact-melt rocks and breccias do contain blebs of meteoritic metal - metal the melted during the impact but as a liquid was immiscible with the molten silicates. All lunar soils and breccias contain meteoritic material. In any handful of lunar soil, 1-4% of the mass is extralunar stuff. Except for blebs of metal, most of which were melted and resolidified, meteorites are virtually absent, however. In the lunar soil, most of the meteoritic material arrives as micrometeorites. By one estimate, approximately 80 grams per square kilometer of micrometeoroids accrete to the Moon (and Earth's atmosphere) each year. We know the meteoritic material (melted and mixed, recondensed from vapor) exists in lunar regolith (soil) and breccias because both are loaded with siderophile (iron-loving) elements like iridium, gold, and platinum in ratios characteristic of chondrites. In contrast, the unbrecciated igneous rocks of the lunar crust - the basalts and anorthosites - have almost immeasurably low concentrations of these elements, as do igneous rocks on Earth. So, every one of the lunar meteorite that is a breccia (which is nearly all of them) contains regular meteoritic material. Those lunar meteorites that are regolith breccias (like NWA 3136 that Adam Hupe mentioned) tend to contain the most. Those that are impact-melt breccias tend to contain the least, judged on the basis of concentrations or, say, iridium. Here's a quote from a paper I've submitted on PCA 02007, a lunar meteorite regolith breccia with a high proportion of chondritic material: The mean Ir concentration of PCA 02007 is equivalent to a component of 2.7% ordinary chondrite or 2.8% CM chondrite. This means that 14% of the Fe and 9% of the Mg and Cr in PCA 02007 derive from extralunar sources (Figs. 8, 9). Day et al. (2006) report an actual meteorite fragment in their thin section of PCA 02007. To my knowledge, the chondrite fragment in a lunar meteorite reported by Day et al. is a first. Randy Korotev __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] How does regolith get stoned?
Shock compression. The shock wave from an impact compresses the powder. Where grains touch, the pressure can be very high. There may also be a little sintering or whole-scale melting in some regolith breccias, but it doesn't really require heat to make a regolith breccia. An aspirin tablet is just compressed powder. Randy Korotev At 20:27 26-08-06 Saturday, you wrote: I'm wondering how lunar/asteroidal regolith becomes reprocessed into solid brecciated stones. Is it reburied to a depth that heat and pressure do the job, or maybe cold welding plays a role? __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] what is this, really
At 01:57 25-08-06 Friday, you wrote: 2. On the scale, does this mean the clasts get arbitrarily large for the known sample pool or is there a sort of maximum size assumed,... Doug: I don't know, but Dhofar 287, NWA 773, and Sau 169 are each dominated but one igneous (basalt in Dhofar 287, olivine cumulate in NWA 773) or pseudo-igneous rock type (crystallized impact-melt in SaU 169) with a minor regolith-breccia rock type attached: http://epsc.wustl.edu/admin/resources/meteorites/dhofar287.html http://epsc.wustl.edu/admin/resources/meteorites/nwa773.html http://epsc.wustl.edu/admin/resources/meteorites/sau169.html So, one interpretation is that each of these meteorites is really a regolith breccia with one immense clast. Perhaps the clast material is stronger than the regolith breccia material and survived the blast off, Moon-Earth trip, entry, and landing better. Clasts like this do occur in the lunar regolith: http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a16/AS16-106-17393.jpg Randy Korotev __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] what is this, really
1) In addition to not having a fusion crust, the object is suspiciously non-lunar in that the clasts are too much all the same size. Lunar regolith breccias are the closest lunar analogs to terrestrial sedimentary rocks, and there is often a superficial resemblance. In many (but not all) terrestrial sediments, however, wind and water processes lead to size sorting so that the clasts are all about the same size. There are no such sorting mechanisms on the Moon. I've called this a fractal effect - it doesn't make any difference what scale you look at a lunar regolith breccia, it always looks the same. To me, in the rock in the photo (asphalt?), there don't seem to be enough big clasts or small clasts, as, for example, in ALHA 81005: http://epsc.wustl.edu/admin/resources/meteorites/alha81005.html I've never heard of meteorite expert mentioned in the blurb. 2) Regarding text of Pluto news release: Although astronomers applauded after the vote, Jocelyn Bell Burnell -- a specialist in neutron stars from Northern Ireland ... How many neutron stars are there in Northern Ireland? Randy Korotev __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] color of lunar meteors
I suspect that for most meteors, the incandescent material is so hot that most of the light is from black body radiation, not electronic emission. If so, then the composition is irrelevant. http://www.egglescliffe.org.uk/physics/astronomy/blackbody/bbody.html I really don't know the temperature, though. If composition is a factor, then I can't think of any reason why lunar meteors would be a significantly different color than asteroidal meteors. All meteorites are low in Na (compared to earth rocks): http://epsc.wustl.edu/admin/resources/meteorites/chemclass/all_meteorites/nak.htm Na is a strong emitter and the cause of the yellow incandescence we're all familiar with (like, in sticking a piece of paper in a natural gas flame). Lunar rocks have very low (sub ppm) concentrations of Cu (= green). They're also much lower in Ni than chondrites: http://epsc.wustl.edu/admin/resources/meteorites/chemclass/all_meteorites/ni.htm Most lunar meteorites are not basalts, but anorthosites (highlands in figures), http://epsc.wustl.edu/admin/resources/meteorites/chemclass/chemclass.htm which are rich in Al and Ca compared to chondrites: http://epsc.wustl.edu/admin/resources/meteorites/chemclass/all_meteorites/alca.htm Neither ionic Al or Ca is particularly colorful as an electronic emitter. Randy Korotev __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
