Re: [Ql-Users] Toolkit II v2.31

[Dave Park]

Marcel,

Please, carry on! There are always people who lack appreciation for what
you're trying to do.

As the changes are more than cosmetic, I do think you should change the
name to TK3 or something. People have a long history and set of
expectations from TK2. Your changes are very worthwhile.

On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 10:13 AM, Marcel Kilgus 
wrote:

> Peter Graf wrote:
> >> It's fairly easy to built new versions, so nobody is stopping anybody
> >> to make different releases. I do this for my own amusement, mostly.
> > If mostly for your amusement, one more reason to give your stuff a
> > different name. Not the traditional TK2 ROM, where major QL features are
> > expected to work.
>
> You have convinced me, I will stop working on it. Thanks for saving me
> a lot of time.
>
> Cheers, Marcel
>
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>



-- 
Dave Park
Sandy Labs
d...@sinclairql.com
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Re: [Ql-Users] Toolkit II v2.31

[Peter Graf]

Am 31.03.2017 um 17:13 schrieb Marcel Kilgus:
> Peter Graf wrote:
>>> It's fairly easy to built new versions, so nobody is stopping anybody
>>> to make different releases. I do this for my own amusement, mostly.
>> If mostly for your amusement, one more reason to give your stuff a
>> different name. Not the traditional TK2 ROM, where major QL features are
>> expected to work.
> 
> You have convinced me, I will stop working on it. Thanks for saving me
> a lot of time.

So does your amusement come from using the name TK2 *ROM*?

I think I made clear enough this is a ROM versus RAM issue.
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Re: [Ql-Users] Toolkit II v2.31

[Marcel Kilgus]

Peter Graf wrote:
>> It's fairly easy to built new versions, so nobody is stopping anybody
>> to make different releases. I do this for my own amusement, mostly.
> If mostly for your amusement, one more reason to give your stuff a
> different name. Not the traditional TK2 ROM, where major QL features are
> expected to work.

You have convinced me, I will stop working on it. Thanks for saving me
a lot of time.

Cheers, Marcel

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Re: [Ql-Users] Toolkit II v2.31

[p...@zx81.de]

Yes networking is QLs every day work. 

> Am 31.03.2017 um 16:55 schrieb Peter Graf :
> 
> Marcel Kilgus wrote:
>> pg...@q40.de wrote:
>>> The network code is an essential of the ROM version. If removed, I
>>> would not call the result TK2 ROM anymore.
>> 
>> Well, I do ;-)
>> [Snip]
>> 
>> It's fairly easy to built new versions, so nobody is stopping anybody
>> to make different releases. I do this for my own amusement, mostly.
> 
> If mostly for your amusement, one more reason to give your stuff a
> different name. Not the traditional TK2 ROM, where major QL features are
> expected to work.
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Ql-Users] Toolkit II v2.31

[Peter Graf]

Marcel Kilgus wrote:
> pg...@q40.de wrote:
>> The network code is an essential of the ROM version. If removed, I
>> would not call the result TK2 ROM anymore.
> 
> Well, I do ;-)
> [Snip]
>
> It's fairly easy to built new versions, so nobody is stopping anybody
> to make different releases. I do this for my own amusement, mostly.

If mostly for your amusement, one more reason to give your stuff a
different name. Not the traditional TK2 ROM, where major QL features are
expected to work.




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Re: [Ql-Users] Toolkit II v2.31

[Jiri Dolezal]

Thanks for the feedback. Are there people badly missing the network
code in the new TK2, i.e. is this still a thing?


Very.
That's why I didn't try the new TK2. I use networking often.
On the other hand, I have Minerva ROM, and trying to avoid using of  
mdv_'s at all, so I don't need the extended MDV driver (which, I  
understand, is disabled on Minerva).


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Re: [Ql-Users] Toolkit II v2.31

[Tobias Fröschle]

I would rather chain-load some other, non-critical commands from disk than 
refraining from the network server and client in ROM.

But just my 2 cents. No worries.

Tobias

> Am 31.03.2017 um 14:03 schrieb Marcel Kilgus :
> 
> pg...@q40.de wrote:
>>> Thanks for the feedback. Are there people badly missing the network
>>> code in the new TK2, i.e. is this still a thing?
>> 
>> Depends on ROM or RAM.
>> 
>> The network code is an essential of the ROM version. If removed, I
>> would not call the result TK2 ROM anymore.
> 
> Well, I do ;-)
> 
>> Pure BASIC extensions can run from RAM, while the network code is
>> hardware dependant and must run from ROM.
> 
> As I already wrote privately, the whole code is too large to fit in
> the 16KB ROM in any case. The network code takes up 15% of the ROM
> space, that is a very large percentage. I would have to remove 20
> other features to fit this single network feature.
> 
> However, not all of the network code strictly needs to be in the ROM,
> only a few timing critical parts. So there might be a solution by
> making the server software external to the ROM. Just thoughts at this
> stage, though.
> 
>> I would not remove code from ROM which needs to run there, and
>> replace it by code which can run elsewhere.
> 
> It's fairly easy to built new versions, so nobody is stopping anybody
> to make different releases. I do this for my own amusement, mostly.
> 
>> By the way, retro-computing with the original hardware seems to 
>> happen more often, not less often in recent years.
> 
> Yes, I'm one of them, otherwise I wouldn't bother with TK2...
> 
> Marcel
> 
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Re: [Ql-Users] Toolkit II v2.31

[Marcel Kilgus]

pg...@q40.de wrote:
>> Thanks for the feedback. Are there people badly missing the network
>> code in the new TK2, i.e. is this still a thing?
>
> Depends on ROM or RAM.
>
> The network code is an essential of the ROM version. If removed, I
> would not call the result TK2 ROM anymore.

Well, I do ;-)

> Pure BASIC extensions can run from RAM, while the network code is
> hardware dependant and must run from ROM.

As I already wrote privately, the whole code is too large to fit in
the 16KB ROM in any case. The network code takes up 15% of the ROM
space, that is a very large percentage. I would have to remove 20
other features to fit this single network feature.

However, not all of the network code strictly needs to be in the ROM,
only a few timing critical parts. So there might be a solution by
making the server software external to the ROM. Just thoughts at this
stage, though.

> I would not remove code from ROM which needs to run there, and
> replace it by code which can run elsewhere.

It's fairly easy to built new versions, so nobody is stopping anybody
to make different releases. I do this for my own amusement, mostly.

> By the way, retro-computing with the original hardware seems to 
> happen more often, not less often in recent years.

Yes, I'm one of them, otherwise I wouldn't bother with TK2...

Marcel

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Re: [Ql-Users] Toolkit II v2.31

[Rich Mellor]

On 31/03/2017 12:22, pg...@q40.de wrote:

On 31 Mar 2017 at 12:12, Marcel Kilgus wrote:


Fabrizio Diversi wrote:

if someone is wondering, Tk2 2.31 is perfectly working also in Mist (at
least as far as I can see:-))

Thanks for the feedback. Are there people badly missing the network
code in the new TK2, i.e. is this still a thing?

Depends on ROM or RAM.

The network code is an essential of the ROM version. If removed, I
would not call the result TK2 ROM anymore. So QL tinkerers who
actually burn that into ROM, are aware to lose a major feature they
probably expect.

Pure BASIC extensions can run from RAM, while the network code is
hardware dependant and must run from ROM. I would not remove code
from ROM which needs to run there, and replace it by code which can
run elsewhere.

By the way, retro-computing with the original hardware seems to
happen more often, not less often in recent years.

Peter

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Hmm - yes, I hadn't spotted the loss of the network routines and think 
these are essential in the ROM.


It would probably be better to offer a separate toolkit which can be 
loaded from disk and sit alongside the ROM version, containing the new 
commands and just update the existing Toolkit II ROM to include any 
updates / bug fixes or improvements, rather than removing features which 
users might expect to use.


The full RAM version of the Toolkit II should actually be listed as an 
upgrade to the 'configurable Super Toolkit' version which Care used to 
sell :)


Rich

--
Rich Mellor
RWAP Services
Specialist Enuuk Auction Programming Services

www.rwapservices.co.uk

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Re: [Ql-Users] Toolkit II v2.31

[pgraf]

On 31 Mar 2017 at 12:12, Marcel Kilgus wrote:

> Fabrizio Diversi wrote:
> > if someone is wondering, Tk2 2.31 is perfectly working also in Mist (at
> > least as far as I can see:-))
> 
> Thanks for the feedback. Are there people badly missing the network
> code in the new TK2, i.e. is this still a thing?

Depends on ROM or RAM.

The network code is an essential of the ROM version. If removed, I 
would not call the result TK2 ROM anymore. So QL tinkerers who 
actually burn that into ROM, are aware to lose a major feature they 
probably expect.

Pure BASIC extensions can run from RAM, while the network code is 
hardware dependant and must run from ROM. I would not remove code 
from ROM which needs to run there, and replace it by code which can 
run elsewhere.

By the way, retro-computing with the original hardware seems to 
happen more often, not less often in recent years.

Peter

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Re: [Ql-Users] Toolkit II v2.31

[Tobias Fröschle]

Here.

The one single reason why I would not use your new TK2 over the traditional one.

My QLs and QXLs are all networked, one of them is diskless and thus depends on 
the network.

Otherwise: very good job bringing TK2 and SMSQ/E to the same code base!

Tobias 

> Am 31.03.2017 um 12:12 schrieb Marcel Kilgus :
> 
> Fabrizio Diversi wrote:
>> if someone is wondering, Tk2 2.31 is perfectly working also in Mist (at
>> least as far as I can see:-))
> 
> Thanks for the feedback. Are there people badly missing the network
> code in the new TK2, i.e. is this still a thing?
> 
> Cheers, Marcel
> 
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Re: [Ql-Users] Toolkit II v2.31

[Marcel Kilgus]

Fabrizio Diversi wrote:
> if someone is wondering, Tk2 2.31 is perfectly working also in Mist (at
> least as far as I can see:-))

Thanks for the feedback. Are there people badly missing the network
code in the new TK2, i.e. is this still a thing?

Cheers, Marcel

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Re: [Ql-Users] Toolkit II v2.31

[Fabrizio Diversi]

Ciao,

if someone is wondering, Tk2 2.31 is perfectly working also in Mist (at 
least as far as I can see:-))


Fabrizio

On 27/03/2017 00:31, Marcel Kilgus wrote:

I just uploaded a version with the fix for the CDEC$ bug. Also I
noticed that the sources were not complete, this is fixed, too, along
with including Jan's conditional assembly trick to get both versions
without altering the source code.

https://www.kilgus.net/2017/03/19/toolkit-ii-the-sequel/

Cheers, Marcel

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