date:20040222


x-charset ISO-8859-1So you're justifying the continued existance of asbestos 
and lead in
environments which children frequent?

Or are you just saying that the risk is acceptable - that those children who
have suffered irreversible damage from lead should be tallied as the cost of
doing business?

What I didn't here you say was anything about cumulative risk, either from a
single point source or collective point sources, over any period of time.

What's more? How is it that you would intend to justify the losses to those
on the short end of your acceptable risk stick?

And how acceptable would those losses be if you or your children were the
recipients?

Approaching the argument solely from the sales rep's angle is rather
shallow. Not at all unusual, but none the less shallow.

Todd Swearingen

- Original Message - 
From: Lillie Bennett [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 8:06 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Bush administration fudging data top scientists warn


 It works both ways folks. Here is a recent quote from someone in the
 business:

 Due to legislation that was heavily lobbied by companies like mine,
 laws were passed forcing schools to inspect and abate asbestos
 materials. I was one of the folks using scare tactics to startle
 mothers into thinking it's possible that their kids won't live to
 12th grade unless they spend millions and millions to remove all the
 asbestos. Moms fell for it. Some schools raised taxes to pay for
 my work, others cut sports and busing to pay for it. The law
 required it, which makes great business sales.

 Meanwhile, according to NIOSH, a worker in an asbestos mill without
 using a respirator for 40 years has the same risk of getting lung
 cancer as a 1/2 pack a day smoker. Fact is, a kid was more likely
 to get killed on the playground or from lightening than die from
 exposure from asbestos pipe insulation in the basement. But I'm not
 going to play that angle, as it won't make me any money.

 Since 1988, I personally have made hundreds of thousands of dollars
 from asbestos regulations. Recently, I worked with a regulatory
 think tank to help develop regulations to inspect and abate lead-
 based paint from schools. You know, moms don't want lead-poisoned
 children! I figure once the regs pass, I'll be able to retire by
 age 45.

 Now, the world is full of people who get over on others, and those
 who think they are getting over on by others. But Darwin put it
 best, Survival of the fittest. If I can get richer, but at the
 expense of others ignorance or stupidity, I'll do it in a N'York
 minute. Money is money, adn as ling as I'm not breaking laws, it's
 a means to the end.

 If you feel paying the book rate for service hours while the tech
 does it actually work in less than half the time is unfair, well,
 welcome to the real world. It's the norm.



 - Original Message - 
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
 Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 12:09 PM
 Subject: [biofuel] Bush administration fudging data top scientists warn


 Bush administration fudging data top scientists warn
 By OLIVER MOOREGlobe and Mail Update

 Wednesday, Feb. 18, 2004

 Twenty Nobel laureates are among the scores of scientists who on
 Wednesday accused the Bush administration of using dubious science to
 gain public support for its policies.
 In an open letter, the Union of Concerned Scientists charges that
 supposedly independent advisory panels have been manipulated to
 suppress or minimize findings contrary to the White House's political
 agenda.
 Russell Train, a Republican who served as EPA administrator under
 both Richard Nixon and Gerald Ford, said that he never once felt any
 pressure from either of those presidents. But on Wednesday he told a
 conference call: how times have changed.
 Representatives of the group said that this manipulation has been
 done by appointing unqualified or biased people to the advisory
 panels, by disbanding some existing panels, by suppressing reports
 and by forgoing independent scientific advice.
 The concerns we raise here at not academic abstractions, said Kurt
 Gottfried, Cornell professor of physics and chairman of the UCS. The
 cavalier attitude toward science that has provoked us to speak out
 can produce tangible damage to the health, wellbeing and security of
 all of us, for generations to come.
 In some cases, another member of the group said, politicizing
 ostensibly neutral scientific advice can leave the public at great
 risk.
 One of the most egregious cases mentioned in the report was the
 issue of the panel on appropriate levels of mercury and lead in
 paint, and in the environment in general, said Neal Lane, a former
 director of the National Science Foundation and a former presidential
 science adviser.
 To appoint people who have clear conflicts of interest, because of
 their association with the paint industry, to panels that have to
 make difficult

Re: [biofuel] pagans

2004-02-22 Thread Curtis Sakima


x-charset ISO-8859-1But doesn't the Jew historic line lead up to modern 
CHRISTIANITY??

Sumerian War-God --- Jews -- Judeo-CHRISTIANS???

Curtis



- Original Message - 
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Why are Pagans and Athiests lumped in the same phrase?
The god of the Jews,btw, evolved from an old Sumarian god of war, who 
liked blood sacrifices, especialy the enemys..
 
H.





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Re: [biofuel] Re: Moral Dilemma...

2004-02-22 Thread Curtis Sakima


x-charset ISO-8859-1The WoMD-justified attack on Pearl-Baghdad.   A day which 
will live in Iraqi
INFAMY.  Sounds pretty eerie ... saying it like that.

Reminds me of what my Dad use to always say.

When the White Man attacks the Indian Village ... it's called a MILITARY
VICTORY.
When the Indians attack a White Village ... it's called a MASSACRE.

Curtis


- Original Message -
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Those who feel the pre-emptive surpise attack on Iraq, killing thousands of
civilians, was morally justified cite the following beliefs.  If they were
sincerely held, even if not supported by facts, then the war was justified.

1. Saddam Hussein was a nasty man.

---snip--


I am old enough to remember December 7, 1941, when the Japanese staged a
pre-emptive surprise attack on the U.S fleet at Peral Harbor, killing 254
civilians.  They sincerely believed the following:

1.  FDR was a nasty man.


--message truncated-





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/x-charset

Re: [biofuel] Re: Moral Dilemma...

2004-02-22 Thread Chris Beamis



Oops!   My mistake.  The mail software automatically puts that in and I
forgot to clean it up.  Sorry about that.  :(

Chris


On Friday, February 20, 2004, at 09:23 PM, Keith Addison wrote:

 Chris Beamis wrote:

 On Friday, February 20, 2004, at 05:18 AM, Keith Addison wrote:

 There is nothing here that I wrote, it's all from Chris Stratford and
 Chris Beamis. Please be a little more careful in saying who wrote
 what.

 Keith Addison




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Re: [biofuel] Lead and asbestos

2004-02-22 Thread esbuck


Yes, we all know that lead and some asbestos is harmful to children if they 
are sufficiently exposed to it.  The point, however, is: is it worth $ millons 
to reduce a very small risk to zero when those millions could be better 
applied?  How about spending the money on vaccinations (to reduce sickness), or 
fixing pot holes (to reduce traffic deaths), or education (to reduce poverty 
and 
stupid things like eating lead), soup kitchens and shelters (to reduce the 
death rate among the homeless), or any number of things other than stirring up 
asbestos which is harmless painted over in the basement or removing lead paint, 
which is likewise harmless as long as it's paint, not food.  (The Golden Gate 
Bridge is red because it was painted with lead paint.  Do you want to risk 
lives to scrape it all off and repeaint with blue?)  The world is full of 
people 
who want zero risk at any cost, as long as they don't have to pay the cost.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Re: [biofuel] America has gone super-sized

2004-02-22 Thread Lillie Bennett

x-charset ISO-8859-1One point could be that at least you have the choice to 
walk or drive. If
you don't have the choice you don't have that freedom.

Lillie

- Original Message - 
From: robert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2004 6:17 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] America has gone super-sized

 Appal Energy wrote:

   Robert,

  Right.  Only an idiot would walk in January in Des Moines to
  start
with.

  Reckon' that would make idiots of us all who have walked all winter
  long,
  years on end, at latitudes further norte than that, eh?

 Indeed!  My favorite winter walks occur when it's at least - 20 and
 the snow has a crunchy feel underfoot.  When it's that cold, the air has
 an envigorating quality to it--as long as the wind isn't blowing!

  Some of my fondest memories are the 10 mile hikes home at day's end,
  scrambling over mountains of ice strewn over a 50 yard wide frozen
  river, or
  walking the forests on crusted snow six feet above ground for 20 or 30
  miles
  on an Arctic night littered with blazing stars.

 I hear you!

 robert luis rabello
 The Edge of Justice
 Adventure for Your Mind
 http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/9782

 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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/x-charset

Re: [biofuel] Re: Moral Dilemma...

2004-02-22 Thread Chris Beamis



On Saturday, February 21, 2004, at 03:27 PM, Kris Book wrote:

 The worst part is that the masses can't see that this
 particlar war like hundreds of wars before it, was started
 to make somebody an extra dollar they really didn't need.
 The corporate bullies can always fake the reason for a war,
 or sucker some fool into starting the war for them. After
 all, they must stay in game shape and since it's always
 young men who are the bulk that are killed in wars, they
 will never relax their grip. And that's good for
 population/power control.

 All they have to do is keep us bickering among ourselves
 and working for the almighty dollar and the inmates run the
 assylum without any guards. We could easily defeat them,
 since we out number them about 99 to 1, unfortunately the
 only weapon I know that will work is communication. And
 since humans will go to such great lengths to avoid
 communicating, we are stuck in a huge Catch 22.

Excellent thinking.  But if it is true that humans communicate poorly
in some circumstances, and communicate very well in other
circumstances, then there may be a way out of the Catch-22.
All we need to do is figure out how to get us all to be
excellent communicators all the time!  And if 'us all' includes
'them' then we don't even need to defeat 'them', all we've got to do is
commence using our ever improving communications skills
for finding real solutions that are good for us all.

Simple!  Ha ha.

Chris



 When we finally learn that all humans are equal and every
 parent on the planet wants the same good fortune (and
 deserves it) for their offspring, then corporate rule will
 just fade away without a shot being fired. Until that day,
 remember virtually all politics/governments are evil and
 not looking out for anyone except the top 1% of the money
 holders.

 kris


 --- Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Enteresting corrolary. Nicely put. Worth giving some
 arduous thought.

 Todd Swearingen

 - Original Message -
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
 Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2004 1:43 PM
 Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Moral Dilemma...


 Those who feel the pre-emptive surpise attack on Iraq,
 killing thousands
 of
 civilians, was morally justified cite the following
 beliefs.  If they were
 sincerely held, even if not supported by facts, then
 the war was
 justified.


 __
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The Pledge of Allegiance does not end with Hail Satan
   -- From Bart Simpson's chalkboard writings.




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Re: [biofuel] Bush administration fudging data top scientists warn

2004-02-22 Thread Lillie Bennett


x-charset ISO-8859-1The point I was trying to make since I heard that 
admission, not my
admission since I like to believe I have scruples, is that everyone with
power wants more and anyone with money wants more; human nature. The top
greens, the ones running the movement are just as corrupt as their enemies.
Many believe global warming is a certainty but many others have doubts and
have historical information that is more convincing to me than computer
simulations. I'm a programmer and know very well that algorithms can be
flawed and junk in means junk out. What does the UN have to gain, well they
want to be the world government and they are certainly using scare tactics.
They want to control you and me and have their hand in our pocket. The thing
is, only God knows the absolute truth and when governments get powerful
enough they become God on Earth but its always politics that wins. Politics
poses as a struggle between right and wrong but it is actually about
winning. The arrogance of humans is in everyone of us, we think we can
overwhelm Mother Nature but are always wrong. Mother Nature can take care of
herself. Now I believe science is the only thing that can save the world,
science like making biodiesel. Like genetically modified food but the greens
have killed that in Europe and forced Africa to comply, so they starve. Most
human suffering is caused by the so called leadership. On and on it goes,
but nobody knows the absolute truth; with humans it's always politics. Now
where is all this hate coming from, some of these posts are reeking with
hate.

Lillie

- Original Message - 
From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2004 8:14 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Bush administration fudging data top scientists warn


 So you're justifying the continued existance of asbestos and lead in
 environments which children frequent?

 Or are you just saying that the risk is acceptable - that those children
who
 have suffered irreversible damage from lead should be tallied as the cost
of
 doing business?

 What I didn't here you say was anything about cumulative risk, either from
a
 single point source or collective point sources, over any period of time.

 What's more? How is it that you would intend to justify the losses to
those
 on the short end of your acceptable risk stick?

 And how acceptable would those losses be if you or your children were the
 recipients?

 Approaching the argument solely from the sales rep's angle is rather
 shallow. Not at all unusual, but none the less shallow.

 Todd Swearingen

 - Original Message - 
 From: Lillie Bennett [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
 Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 8:06 PM
 Subject: Re: [biofuel] Bush administration fudging data top scientists
warn


  It works both ways folks. Here is a recent quote from someone in the
  business:
 
  Due to legislation that was heavily lobbied by companies like mine,
  laws were passed forcing schools to inspect and abate asbestos
  materials. I was one of the folks using scare tactics to startle
  mothers into thinking it's possible that their kids won't live to
  12th grade unless they spend millions and millions to remove all the
  asbestos. Moms fell for it. Some schools raised taxes to pay for
  my work, others cut sports and busing to pay for it. The law
  required it, which makes great business sales.
 
  Meanwhile, according to NIOSH, a worker in an asbestos mill without
  using a respirator for 40 years has the same risk of getting lung
  cancer as a 1/2 pack a day smoker. Fact is, a kid was more likely
  to get killed on the playground or from lightening than die from
  exposure from asbestos pipe insulation in the basement. But I'm not
  going to play that angle, as it won't make me any money.
 
  Since 1988, I personally have made hundreds of thousands of dollars
  from asbestos regulations. Recently, I worked with a regulatory
  think tank to help develop regulations to inspect and abate lead-
  based paint from schools. You know, moms don't want lead-poisoned
  children! I figure once the regs pass, I'll be able to retire by
  age 45.
 
  Now, the world is full of people who get over on others, and those
  who think they are getting over on by others. But Darwin put it
  best, Survival of the fittest. If I can get richer, but at the
  expense of others ignorance or stupidity, I'll do it in a N'York
  minute. Money is money, adn as ling as I'm not breaking laws, it's
  a means to the end.
 
  If you feel paying the book rate for service hours while the tech
  does it actually work in less than half the time is unfair, well,
  welcome to the real world. It's the norm.
 
 
 
  - Original Message - 
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 12:09 PM
  Subject: [biofuel] Bush administration fudging data top scientists warn
 
 
  Bush administration fudging data top scientists

Re: [biofuel] Amphora PDA-1


Re: Ethanol Production

As a beginner, I thought it might be a good place to start by
purchasing the Amphora PDA-1 Professional Distillation Apparatus
(http://www.amphora-society.com/Equipment/Equip_1/equip_1.html).  Is
anyone familiar with this product?  Does anyone have a recommendation?

Thanks,

Mike Redler


Hello Mike

Your namesakes Mike Nixon and Mike McCaw have an excellent reputation 
that's certainly well-deserved. Have you read their book, The 
Compleat Distiller? This is what it says about it at our site:

It may sound like an over-ambitious title, but it's just an accurate 
description. It covers everything, it's clearly written, 
well-organised, a pleasure to read. The guys on the Distillers 
mailing list love it: One great distilling book! I haven't ever 
read a distilling book as complete as this. Everything is covered. 
Another: If you ever have thought about buying just one book on 
distillation, this should be that book. If you are a beginner, this 
book is perfect. If you have been taught the art by your old pappy 
livin' in those there hills, this book is for you. If you are a 
master crafter and know everything, this book is for you. Order 
online, as a PDF (Acrobat file) or a printed book:
http://www.amphora-society.com

Like the Biofuel list, the Distillers group also has an archives at 
Martin's NNYTech, and so does the New Distillers group. See what they 
say about the PDA-1.

http://archive.nnytech.net/sgroup/distillers/
http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/new_distillers/

I'd say the only problem with it is that it's not fuel-scale.

Best

Keith



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[biofuel] Re: Cost of the War

2004-02-22 Thread look4bryan


x-charset ISO-8859-1Really.  You don't see something wrong with these 
numbers?  Assuming
you mean US dollars, since the USA is apparently the means by which
all evil is measured, $2.17 per person will provide healthcare AND
food?  WHAT A DEAL?  Where do I sign up?

13,000,000,000 dollars /6,000,000,000 people on the planet =
$2.16 ad nauseum, each...

Yeah, yeah, there may not have been 6 Billion people on the planet in
1998, I don't remember, but it was darned close.

Bryan



--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Cost of the War in Iraq
 http://costofwar.com/
 
 A mesmerising flicker of rising numbers...
 
 By comparison...
 
 Less than one per cent of what the world spent every year on weapons 
 was needed to put every child into school by the year 2000 and yet it 
 didn't happen.
 
 American and European annual expenditure on pet food: $17 billion 
 per year. Estimated annual cost of providing universal healthcare and 
 nutrition for everyone in the world: $13 billion per year.
 - United Nations Development Programme, Human Development Report, 1998.
 http://www.undp.org/hdro/1998/98.htm)
 
 See:
 Causes of Poverty
 http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Poverty.asp
 
 Best
 
 Keith




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/x-charset

[biofuel] Re: Moral Dilemma...

2004-02-22 Thread Tonya, and Mike


x-charset ISO-8859-1
After reading this i just wanted to say you are right.  I am NOT 
racist, but Lincoln used slavery and the Emancipation Proclamation to 
justify the civil war when it was over half way finished.  This is 
the same propaganda that Bush used with WMD's.  Its similar to the 
hegelian effect.  I have a declassified paper right from the 
governments site that explains how they staged the whole cuban 
missile crisis.  Their own document.  Says they had friendly cubans 
stage riots for the media.  Says they had a pilot fly below radar and 
radio that he was shot down.  He then flew to an undisclosed hangar 
to then rejoin his post.  While he did this a boat was scattering 
airplane parts in the water.  The US also documented starting fires 
on their own ship.  All this to create a crisis.  This sounds 
crazy, but I would never make this up.  I have learned more in the 
last 2 years than i thought could ever be possible.  My main point is 
that everything is NOT always as the mainstream media makes it out to 
be.  Take care. Mike M.  


--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Kris Book [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 The worst part is that the masses can't see that this
 particlar war like hundreds of wars before it, was started
 to make somebody an extra dollar they really didn't need.
 The corporate bullies can always fake the reason for a war,
 or sucker some fool into starting the war for them. After
 all, they must stay in game shape and since it's always
 young men who are the bulk that are killed in wars, they
 will never relax their grip. And that's good for
 population/power control.
 
 All they have to do is keep us bickering among ourselves
 and working for the almighty dollar and the inmates run the
 assylum without any guards. We could easily defeat them,
 since we out number them about 99 to 1, unfortunately the
 only weapon I know that will work is communication. And
 since humans will go to such great lengths to avoid
 communicating, we are stuck in a huge Catch 22.
 
 When we finally learn that all humans are equal and every
 parent on the planet wants the same good fortune (and
 deserves it) for their offspring, then corporate rule will
 just fade away without a shot being fired. Until that day,
 remember virtually all politics/governments are evil and
 not looking out for anyone except the top 1% of the money
 holders.
 
 kris  
 
 
 --- Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Enteresting corrolary. Nicely put. Worth giving some
  arduous thought.
  
  Todd Swearingen
  
  - Original Message - 
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2004 1:43 PM
  Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Moral Dilemma...
  
  
   Those who feel the pre-emptive surpise attack on Iraq,
  killing thousands
  of
   civilians, was morally justified cite the following
  beliefs.  If they were
   sincerely held, even if not supported by facts, then
  the war was
  justified.
 
 
 __
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/x-charset

Re: [biofuel] Re: Moral Dilemma...

2004-02-22 Thread Greg and April

If I new the burglar was coming sometime in the next few nights, and he was 
packing a firearm, I know that there is a good chance I might get hurt.  So no, 
I would not be surprised if it happened.  Just a little disappointed I didn't 
get him first.

Greg H. 
  - Original Message - 
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2004 16:54
  Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Moral Dilemma...

  In a message dated 2/21/2004 2:01:57 PM Central Standard Time, 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  Surprise?  No way.  They knew for months that it was coming, it was just a 
  matter of when.
  You know you are going to die; it's just a matter of when.  So, if you are 
  mortally wounded by a burglar at 3 am, it won't be a surprise?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Re: [biofuel] Re: where to find methanol


x-charset ISO-8859-1Mike,

Just make sure there's no lubricating oil blended in with what you get as
with much racing methanol. You want 100% anhydrous. But you probably already
guessed that.

Rotsa Ruck

Todd Swearingen

- Original Message - 
From: Tonya, and Mike [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2004 10:54 PM
Subject: [biofuel] Re: where to find methanol


 You were right about the race tracks. I just talked to one of my best
 friends who happens to race cars.  They used to race the go carts
 which use methanol.  He said he'll have a friend bring some back this
 weekend.  And there is a high performance shop not too far that sells
 it for about 3.50 per gallon.  I should have know.  Before I got into
 the hobby of government corruption and things like that that you
 folks seem to be familiar with i used to drag race for fun.  Spent
 more money on it than i care to remember.  Pardon me for the
 commercial, but think about the Constitution party if you want to
 help fix America.  Take care and thank you for your help.  Mike M.
   www.givemeliberty.org, www.familyguardian.tzo.com, www.cpnc.info





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/x-charset

Re: [biofuel] Bush administration fudging data top scientists warn


Lillie Bennett wrote:
  Like genetically modified food but the greens
 have killed that in Europe and forced Africa to comply, so they starve.

Yeah, that's right, treat the symptoms by forcing out more profit and 
using poor and hungry people to try it on, because they are unresistant.
Instead of eliminating the real reasons (rape of the country for all it 
resources for little, LITTLE money.

Happy brainwashin day!








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Re: [biofuel] Lead and asbestos



Jay,

The rest of the world does not use asbestos products, they have for a 
long time been prohibited in EU countries. They are also very many 
restrictions to minimize exposures to lead.

It is many developing countries that do not have protection, because of 
corruption, lack of frame work or capacity. Many less scrupulous 
corporations are still dumping products in those countries aided and 
abetted by their less scrupulous and corrupted governments. I do not regard 
them as working with permission the rest of the world nor that the 
victims know what is going on.

US is very active and we can only take the Bophal disaster as an example. 
Where more innocent people was killed, than the latest Iraq occupation. US 
is still protecting the corporate leaders from answering in court and help 
the corporation to cap claims on damages. That is US foreign policy. Many 
US jobs would not be exported, if US held their own corporations 
accountable for only proper minimum safety standard, or good business ethics.

An innocent Iraqi life is worth maximum $2,500 in damages and it is plenty 
of easy rules and excuses for paying nothing. How can it be that the 
American public is surprised that it is some minor problems to win the 
hearts and minds. In a country that 80% of the population are women or 
children under 15 years of age and not counting old age men. US cannot 
establish law and order with 100,000 to 150,000 of troops and enormous fire 
power, among around 4,000,000 able men. The you have US, who claim that the 
opposition to the occupation is a small minority, but of course, children 
and women have no say. LOL

You only have to look at the numbers and apply a little bit logic and the 
propaganda machines are easily exposed. I have refrained from comments 
after the Iraqi war, this because it is difficult for me to do, without 
saying what did I said. It is however never too late for US to start 
adopting responsible foreign policies. It is many countries, who is 
pillaging and utilizing the developing countries, but US stands out in this 
crowd.

Hakan


At 05:51 22/02/2004, you wrote:
In a message dated 2/21/04 8:13:18 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:

  Yes, we all know that lead and some asbestos is harmful to children if 
 they
 
  are sufficiently exposed to it.  The point, however, is: is it worth $
  millons
  to reduce a very small risk to zero when those millions could be better
  applied?  How about spending the money on vaccinations (to reduce 
 sickness),
  or
  fixing pot holes (to reduce traffic deaths), or education (to reduce 
 poverty
  and
  stupid things like eating lead), soup kitchens and shelters (to reduce the
  death rate among the homeless), or any number of things other than 
 stirring
  up
  asbestos which is harmless painted over in the basement or removing lead
  paint,
  which is likewise harmless as long as it's paint, not food.  (The Golden
  Gate
  Bridge is red because it was painted with lead paint.  Do you want to risk
  lives to scrape it all off and repeaint with blue?)  The world is full of
  people
  who want zero risk at any cost, as long as they don't have to pay the
  cost.
 

Sigfried and Roy understood risk.  They calculated the odds each time they
played with their tigers.  And that was the point.  They were exposed to risk
and they knew it.  What you are talking about is completely 
different.  Asbestos
is a risk from a litigation perspective.  Our government has decreed, by
golly, that it is hazardous to our health.  Well, do you know what?  If you
manufactured asbestos products, used them, recommended them or don't 
disclose that
they are in your quaint cottage, they are dangerous to your healthyour
financial health.  The rest of the world uses asbestos products with 
impunity and
thinks we're nuts for banning it.  The cases of lung cancer or mesotheleoma
attributed to asbestos have dropped so low I can't even find a recent 
reference.
In cases of asbestos exposure, the community so exposed is relatively small,
regardless of the lawyers claiming otherwise.  For you to complain about
asbestos risk now is locking the barn after the animals have fled to greener
pastures.

But then there is Lead.  That stuff is a health hazard because it can replace
both calcium and iron in our bodies.  Calcium in the bone and iron in the
heme portion of blood.  The particles are ingested as dusts either by 
inhalation
or consumption.  They arise from flaking paint, proximity to highways where
leaded fuels were used --- even years ago -- and (get this) from the guys who
sat at their kitchen tables reloading shotgun shells while their kids 
looked on.
And it doesn't just affect the exposed generation!  Lead incorporated into
bone is mobilized during pregnancy and incorporated into the growing 
fetus.  It
can impact brain development as well as bone.  Risk is just fine when you
have control over whether or not to accept it. But a fetus doesn't have a

Re: [biofuel] Bush administration fudging data top scientistswarn

Todd,

This time it was a field of nuggets in what you are saying.

Hakan

At 06:26 22/02/2004, you wrote:
Lillie,

The point I was trying to make since I heard that admission, not my
admission since I like to believe I have scruples, is that everyone with
power wants more and anyone with money wants more; human nature.

And most everyone with no power and no money might be a little bit pleased
to have a bit of one or the other. Stands to reason. The have nots are human
too.

The top
greens, the ones running the movement are just as corrupt as their
enemies.

The brass hats don't control as much of the movement as they would like to
think. And not all of them are as corrupt. Although I would admit that a
fair number of them have lost sight of the prize.

Many believe global warming is a certainty but many others have doubts and
have historical information that is more convincing to me than computer
simulations. I'm a programmer and know very well that algorithms can be
flawed and junk in means junk out.

Maybe so. But if you want to read something really chilling and not far
fetched in the least try this
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0130-11.htmhttp://www.commondreams.org/views04/0130-11.htm

What does the UN have to gain, well they
want to be the world government and they are certainly using scare
tactics.

Who really cares? Does anyone honestly believe that they could do a worse
job than the fractionalized, self-serving pontificates that are presently
snotting all over humanity? Not that it will ever happen to even a remote
degree that so many people decry in their not-so-fleeting moments of
paranoia. But it is high time that nation-states began to acknowledge that
the consequences of their actions don't simply stop at their borders.

They want to control you and me and have their hand in our pocket.

Yup...there went another one of those not so fleeting moments

The thing
is, only God knows the absolute truth and when governments get powerful
enough they become God on Earth but its always politics that wins.

No. No. No. No. No. You've got it slightly wrong. This is god and this is
government. This is god and this is government. This is god and this is
government.
See? There's a difference.

Politics
poses as a struggle between right and wrong but it is actually about
winning. The arrogance of humans is in everyone of us, we think we can
overwhelm Mother Nature but are always wrong. Mother Nature can take care
of
herself.

Something is askew with that thought process. I suppose that's why species
that become extinct as a result human behavior never return? Because nature
can take care of herself? No. Nature can adjust in the aftermath of human
wrought devastations. But that certainly doesn't mean that she won't be
scarred or eviscerated beyond repair in many circumstances.

Now I believe science is the only thing that can save the world,
science like making biodiesel.

Uh oh! Technocracy looms its serpentine head once again.

Well..., anyway..., science can neither assist or erode. It's the
application of science wherein gain or loss lay. Can you spell nucular? It
is, after all, science and its abuse that brought us dioxin, PCBs, mercury
advisories, Minimata disease, etc., etc., ad infinitum. You speak of humans
who can't control their own foibles in the political arena but somehow think
that humans are devoid of their same faults in the scientific arena?

Me thinks you've got a wee tad of re-assessing of the human condition to do.

Like genetically modified food but the greens
have killed that in Europe and forced Africa to comply, so they starve.

Uh..., me thinks you just opened a really monstrous can of worms that
you have virtually no support for. You really need to revisit your political
corruption thesis and expand it into the corporate arena as well before you
start to pawn off the ills of the starving world on people who not only see
but can prove enormous disbenefit and grandiose mis- and over-representation
of GMO.

You also would serve yourself well to reconsider your habit of stereotyping.
It's not just greens that are dead set against GMO. Farmers, scientists,
botanists, Baptists and a slew of other denominations of humanity are
banding together on that front - red necks, right wingers, liberals and nuns
and nannies combined.

Most
human suffering is caused by the so called leadership.

It's about time you got back on track. It was beginning to look as if it
would take a dockyard crane and Borax's team of forty mules to get you
upright again.

Just don't forget leadership in every category.

On and on it goes,
but nobody knows the absolute truth; with humans it's always politics. Now
where is all this hate coming from, some of these posts are reeking with
hate.

Maybe it's not hate at all. Maybe it's honest appraisal of ever so prevalent
denial, obfuscation, distortion and mis- and dis-information. Oddly enough

Re: [biofuel] Re: Cost of the War

2004-02-22 Thread Dave Williams


look4bryan wrote:
 Really.  You don't see something wrong with these numbers?  Assuming
 you mean US dollars, since the USA is apparently the means by which
 all evil is measured, $2.17 per person will provide healthcare AND
 food?  WHAT A DEAL?  Where do I sign up?

  Not to mention, most of those six billion people are under someone 
else's government, and therefore are someone else's concern.  If it's 
going to be so cheap, let the Ethiopians pay for it; even they could 
scrape up thirteen billion dollars.

  Of course, the US government, from the FDA on down, would want to know 
exactly what standards all this healthcare met, and there's a 
substantial healthcare provider lobby dead set against lower costs; they 
  probably spend thirteen billion dollars a year just advertising.

-- 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Dave Williams)==
== waiting, anticipating / for someone to save her soul / well, I ==
== ain't no new Messiah / but I'm close enough for rock and roll! ==
= http://www.bacomatic.org/~dw/index.htm





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Re: [biofuel] Re: Moral Dilemma...

2004-02-22 Thread Fred Finch


Just a few pointers with regards to your last comments.

Slavery was a real thing.  It was well documented.

Saddam's WMD (or should I say Bush's WMD) were undetermined.  The Threat 
was overplayed.

Administrations will do stoopid things to justify their existance.

Too bad they document it as well.

fred

At 04:03 AM 2/22/2004 +, you wrote:

After reading this i just wanted to say you are right.  I am NOT
racist, but Lincoln used slavery and the Emancipation Proclamation to
justify the civil war when it was over half way finished.  This is
the same propaganda that Bush used with WMD's.  Its similar to the
hegelian effect.  I have a declassified paper right from the
governments site that explains how they staged the whole cuban
missile crisis.  Their own document.  Says they had friendly cubans
stage riots for the media.  Says they had a pilot fly below radar and
radio that he was shot down.  He then flew to an undisclosed hangar
to then rejoin his post.  While he did this a boat was scattering
airplane parts in the water.  The US also documented starting fires
on their own ship.  All this to create a crisis.  This sounds
crazy, but I would never make this up.  I have learned more in the
last 2 years than i thought could ever be possible.  My main point is
that everything is NOT always as the mainstream media makes it out to
be.  Take care. Mike M.


--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Kris Book [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  The worst part is that the masses can't see that this
  particlar war like hundreds of wars before it, was started
  to make somebody an extra dollar they really didn't need.
  The corporate bullies can always fake the reason for a war,
  or sucker some fool into starting the war for them. After
  all, they must stay in game shape and since it's always
  young men who are the bulk that are killed in wars, they
  will never relax their grip. And that's good for
  population/power control.
 
  All they have to do is keep us bickering among ourselves
  and working for the almighty dollar and the inmates run the
  assylum without any guards. We could easily defeat them,
  since we out number them about 99 to 1, unfortunately the
  only weapon I know that will work is communication. And
  since humans will go to such great lengths to avoid
  communicating, we are stuck in a huge Catch 22.
 
  When we finally learn that all humans are equal and every
  parent on the planet wants the same good fortune (and
  deserves it) for their offspring, then corporate rule will
  just fade away without a shot being fired. Until that day,
  remember virtually all politics/governments are evil and
  not looking out for anyone except the top 1% of the money
  holders.
 
  kris
 
 
  --- Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   Enteresting corrolary. Nicely put. Worth giving some
   arduous thought.
  
   Todd Swearingen
  
   - Original Message -
   From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2004 1:43 PM
   Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Moral Dilemma...
  
  
Those who feel the pre-emptive surpise attack on Iraq,
   killing thousands
   of
civilians, was morally justified cite the following
   beliefs.  If they were
sincerely held, even if not supported by facts, then
   the war was
   justified.
 
 
  __
  Do you Yahoo!?
  Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want.
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Re: [biofuel] Bush administration fudging data top scientists warn

2004-02-22 Thread Lillie Bennett


x-charset ISO-8859-1We in the US are eating it. GMO provides more yield 
without as much harmful
pesticides and saves land area which allows more forests to consume any
excess co2. I'm no expert but it sounds like a good thing. What's wrong with
profit? Without it there would be no economy.

Lillie

- Original Message - 
From: jkolling [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2004 4:49 AM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Bush administration fudging data top scientists warn


 Lillie Bennett wrote:
   Like genetically modified food but the greens
  have killed that in Europe and forced Africa to comply, so they starve.

 Yeah, that's right, treat the symptoms by forcing out more profit and
 using poor and hungry people to try it on, because they are unresistant.
 Instead of eliminating the real reasons (rape of the country for all it
 resources for little, LITTLE money.

 Happy brainwashin day!








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Re: [biofuel] America has gone super-sized

2004-02-22 Thread Dave Williams


robert luis rabello wrote:

 Your statement would be funny if it weren't so frequently used as an
 excuse to justify sprawl and the ensuring need to drive long distances to
 work, shop and entertain ourselves. 

  Nobody needs to justify sprawl.  Life in the human anthills that
large cities exemplify is not good, something self-evident to everyone
except the people who have to live there, who usually try to make out
like everyone should be as happy as they are.

  Not only to normal people not want to live in cities, their elected
representatives don't want them living near anything except each other.
  That's why they enact zoning laws.  All residences must be on one side
of town, all the places anyone might want to work are on the other side
of town, and all the stores are somewhere else.  This makes everything
pretty and neat on their maps at City Hall, and it turns the whole place
into a traffic jam.

  Back in Shakespeare's day there weren't zoning administrators, or
he'd've had his character say those needed to be killed first, *then*
the lawyers.


 Have you actually ever talked to pimps,
 hookers, dope dealers, panhandlers and plain old freaks? 

  On rare occasions, as briefly as possible.


  What about poor people? What are you afraid of?

  You're the one who dragged in the poor people thing; perhaps you can
explain it...


 There's an underlying classism in your statement that eventually
 extends to people in other parts of the world, and it gets ugly in a hurry!
 People who ascribe to this attitude believe that somehow they ARE better than
 the pimps, hookers, dope dealers, panhandlers, poor people and plain old
 freaks they can easily avoid by moving away or driving two ton steel boxes
 through the neighborhoods where such human detritus lives.  How convenient!

  Yep.  Except for your poor people you inserted in there again for
bait...


 In international terms, it's just as convenient to drop a few bombs and
 overthrow a government or two in order to deal with the inconvenience at a
 distance.

  Yep.  That's what we have a military *for*.  Cheap gas, cheap tea, you
have to buy your votes somehow when you're in public office.


 See what I mean?  All of a sudden, we're better than everybody else.

  What do you mean we?  Elevating yourself up to my pedestal?


 All of a sudden, we have a right to the rest of the world's resources.
 We're smarter than they are.  Even ordinary schmucks live really well,
 compared to the rest of the world.  (But you failed to include the pimps,
 hookers, drug dealers, etc.)  There's some truth to that statement, but the
 causes of our apparent success are far more complex than I imagine you care
 to investigate.

  And now, after several attempts, you make a hard right turn off to
La-La Land...


  American agriculture is the most efficient in the world.
 
 People in this forum will laugh at you for writing such nonsense.  Why
 don't you show evidence that American agriculture produces more energy in
 food than exists in the fossil fuel required to prepare the land, fertilize,
 irrigate and harvest the crops?  (I won't even go into all the fuel burned to
 move the resultant food to your neighborhood grocery store. . .)  Compare the
 difference to older, more traditional methods and you will be surprised, if
 you actually bother doing the math.

...and the yellow brick road has no speed limits...


 If we're so efficient as farmers, why are we importing food?

  How else are you going to get German beer,  Scotch whisky, French
chocolates, or Marmite?  Or perhaps we're not supposed to buy (or want?)
anything not grown within the borders of the USA?


 Do you listen to yourself?  Are you normally so arrogant,

  Arrogant?  That I live better than 3/4 of the people in the world, and
I'm proud of it?  If that's arrogance to you, why sure, I'm that
arrogant all the time.


 or is this just
 something you put on when you're feeling a little defensive? 

  Ah!  Having exhausted the small resources of fact and logic available,
you resort to the last-ditch effort of the loser...


 America is a
 great country.  Because of that, we can afford to examine ourselves and

  Sackcloth and ashes, or just self-flagellation?


 address our problems, and obesity is a serious problem.  Boasting about how
 fat we are solves nothing.  We will pay for our overindulgence down the road
 in spiraling health care costs and lost productivity.

  Did you ever notice costs never just increase?  They always spiral.
I've often wondered why.


 Finally, you've put your finger on a real issue!  We ARE being marketed
 to death, literally!

  The proletatiat, by and large, are stupid and easily influenced, and
advertising works well enough for children to knife each other over what
brand of shoes they're wearing, so yes, I agree with you completely.


  It's a terrible thing to be poor, isn't it?
 
 What would YOU know about it?

  I read a magazine article on

[biofuel] Price of gas fuels frustration

2004-02-22 Thread murdoch


http://www.lancastereaglegazette.com/news/stories/20040218/localnews/433196.html

LANCASTER -- Area motorists may complain about the rising cost of gasoline, 
but they said Tuesday there is not much they can really do about it but to dig 
deeper into their pockets. 

Gas prices for all grades rose 3.61 cents in the past week to a national 
average of $1.68 per gallon, according to the Lundberg Survey of 8,000 
stations across the country.



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Re: [biofuel] Bush administration fudging data top scientists warn




Lillie Bennett wrote:
 We in the US are eating it.

If it gets out into the wild the natural plants will be a crossbreed of 
the GM crops. the results are unoverseeable and potentially  devastating.

you obviously don't know much about plants and breeding them.
there are biodynamic ways which will eliminate pesticide use etc also.
yet obviously you don't know about it.


  GMO provides more yield without as much harmful
 pesticides and saves land area which allows more forests to consume any
 excess co2.

backwards thinking again. eliminate the CO2 emissions first.
Not by GM but by harmless energy, for whatever.

  I'm no expert but it sounds like a good thing. What's wrong with
 profit? Without it there would be no economy.

In your next life, or in this life, please go live in Africa.

And by the way, you have an  extremely narrow view of what economy is.



 
 Lillie
 
 - Original Message -
 From: jkolling [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
 Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2004 4:49 AM
 Subject: Re: [biofuel] Bush administration fudging data top scientists warn
 
 
   Lillie Bennett wrote:
 Like genetically modified food but the greens
have killed that in Europe and forced Africa to comply, so they starve.
  
   Yeah, that's right, treat the symptoms by forcing out more profit and
   using poor and hungry people to try it on, because they are unresistant.
   Instead of eliminating the real reasons (rape of the country for all it
   resources for little, LITTLE money.
  
   Happy brainwashin day!
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
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   http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
  
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Re: [biofuel] Bush administration fudging data top scientists warn




Hakan Falk wrote:

 
 Lillie,
 
 Higher yields has been discussed a lot, in Spain it has had very
 negative consequences. The cocktail of fertilizers and chemicals
 that goes with it, is outright crazy.
 
that is true also, i forgot about that bit.
and GM crops fail a lot. not much left of each harvest when you compare 
to 'normal' harvest, and even  that  can be better.

 The only thing that has been proven, is that it is a smart way to
 patent and monopolizing food by corporations.

More poorness, less rich people and more profit for the few one.





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Re: [biofuel] Re: How Bush reversed regulatory effort on polluting gas additive


x-charset ISO-8859-1Really interesting.

You're neglecting the supremacy clause of the federal constitution, which
makes constitutional any state law that offers greater protection than
federal law.  When state law does not, federal law takes precedence.

[Forget for the moment that there are ongoing arguments and evidence that
federal law presently disects its own constitutionality in many venues and
that new federal laws often often transgress state constitutions - state
constitutions which were oddly enough accepted when each state was ratified
into the union. Civil rights for gays and medicinal cannabis rights for the
ill are but two highly contested areas of state vs federal law.]

While it's fine when state legislators issue law that conforms to the wishes
of constituents within a region, it is not acceptable when state legislation
compromises what has been afforded by either state or federal constitution,
among which is the protection of life (incorporating health) and property.

Legislation of MTBE is one of those issues, where not even well designed
containment vessels can prevent its escape into hydrology, much less the
folly of thinking that a state border can contain it.

This is exactly where federal law is expected to serve - to create a
national conformity that serves the betterment of the national constituency
rather than the narrower state constituency or even perhaps narrower sects
of the business sector.

MTBE is not in the same league as voting for a state flower or a state song.

Oh, just in case you hadn't noticed all those fuel storage tanks across
the states that have been pulled out of the ground due to leakage, the
greens have been bringing it to the attention of state and local
legislatures for 20 years.

And oddly enough it wasn't just greens that brought the item up for
scrutiny and continue to do so, especially when many of the tanks permitted
to replace the old ones have as bad or worse structural flaws than the tanks
they replaced, despite strengthened regs.

Those who raised (and raise) hell about leaking tanks and the product MTBE
that no tank can contain are landowners, soccer moms, postmasters and
postmistresses, scientists, steel workers, coal miners, fast-food franchise
managers, garment industry workers and every other profession and personna
that happen to care about their, their children's and their neighbors'
health.

Maybe what we oughta' do is serve up a daily glass of drinking water from a
local well contaminated with MTBE to Rush Lim-bought before he goes on air
every day and wait to see how long it is before he starts whining about it a
little differently

Green he is not. But he is reasonably as concerned about his own health as
anyone else.

Todd Swearingen

- Original Message - 
From: amrqq [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2004 11:46 PM
Subject: [biofuel] Re: How Bush reversed regulatory effort on polluting gas
additive


 Keep in mind that any state is free to ban MTBE, ethanol,or whatever
 else they don't like.
 Gasoline leakage is not new. If this was a real problem, I would
 think that the greens would have cared enough about our health to
 bring it to the attention of state legislatures,if they(greens)
 thought they were not getting the appropriate action from Washington.
 (MTBE is-will be, banned in some states)
 I don't see any necessity for federal action, here. Each state
 has its own 'EPA', and is more than capable of taking action.

 A.M.


 \--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  http://www.enn.com/news/2004-02-17/s_13168.asp
 
  How Bush reversed regulatory effort on polluting gas additive
 
  Tuesday, February 17, 2004
 
  By Pete Yost, Associated Press
 
  WASHINGTON - The Bush administration quietly shelved a proposal to
  ban a gasoline additive that contaminates drinking water in many
  communities, helping an industry that has donated more than $1
  million to Republicans.
 
  The Environmental Protection Agency's decision had its origin in
 the
  early days of President Bush's tenure when his administration
 decided
  not to move ahead with a Clinton-era regulatory effort to ban the
  clean-air additive MTBE. The proposed regulation said the
  environmental harm of the additive leaching into ground water
  overshadowed its beneficial effects to the air. The Bush
  administration decided to leave the issue to Congress, where it has
  bogged down over a proposal to shield the industry from some
 lawsuits.
 
  That initiative is being led by House Majority Leader Tom DeLay,
  R-Texas. A draft of the proposed regulation that former President
  Clinton's EPA sent to the White House on its last full day in
 office
  in January 2001 said, The use of MTBE as an additive in gasoline
  presents an unreasonable risk to the environment.
 
  The EPA document went on to say that low levels of MTBE can render
  drinking water supplies unpotable due to its

Re: [biofuel] Vanagon seals


esbuck wrote:

Just one more bit of data: My brother drove coast to coast and back, 10,000
km, using 100% raw cottonseed oil in a Continental diesel.  When he 
checked the
injectors, etc. there was no detectable damage.  The only problem he had was
having to warm the fuel when going over the Sierras (freezing temperatures)
because a waxy material clogged the fuel filter otherwise.

I think this is the third time you've told us about this, but you've 
never provided any details, though asked. You said there was a 
media-wide conspiracy of silence about it, which I find difficult to 
believe. Was nothing at all published? Do you have no further 
information? Without some sort of substantiation, it's hardly the 
data you claim it to be.

Keith Addison



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[biofuel] Re: Cost of the War


Really.  You don't see something wrong with these numbers?  Assuming
you mean US dollars, since the USA is apparently the means by which
all evil is measured, $2.17 per person will provide healthcare AND
food?  WHAT A DEAL?  Where do I sign up?

13,000,000,000 dollars /6,000,000,000 people on the planet =
$2.16 ad nauseum, each...

Yeah, yeah, there may not have been 6 Billion people on the planet in
1998, I don't remember, but it was darned close.

Bryan

You did read the references didn't you? Yes (yeah, yeah) sure you 
did. The third one, Causes of Poverty, will tell you where to sign 
up, so run along and do that (while I hold my breath).

1. What's the cost of providing your idea of healthcare per person?
2. What's the cost of building a hospital where none exists?
3. What's the cost of training a doctor where none exists?
4. What's the cost of building a clinic where none exists?
5. What's the cost per baby that would otherwise have died of 
providing Primary Health Care services in collaboration with local 
traditional healers?

And how far did you think about it? - did you even consider #1 in 
terms of the fact that US rates are the highest in the OECD, and the 
US healthcare system the most inefficient in the OECD? And pause to 
consider that maybe there's more to it than that, and more to the 
world than the way it is in your backyard (according to you anyway)?

you mean US dollars, since the USA is apparently the means by which
all evil is measured...

Try reading it this time instead of flailing about looking for 
something to chuck at it so maybe it'll go away and you won't have to 
think about it - it says: American and European annual 
expenditure Add Japanese, and there you have it: the rich, 
industrialised, OECD nations. Got it?

If you're going to respond to this make sure that you check those 
refs first so you have some basic idea at least of what it means, and 
hopefully some basic idea of what you're talking about. And CHECK 
them, don't just search for dismissive labels to stick on them. Or 
just go straight ahead as you will and display your ignorance, and 
how lightly you take your privileges, with how little regard for 
those who're deprived so you can waste them.

Keith


--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Cost of the War in Iraq
  http://costofwar.com/
 
  A mesmerising flicker of rising numbers...
 
  By comparison...
 
  Less than one per cent of what the world spent every year on weapons
  was needed to put every child into school by the year 2000 and yet it
  didn't happen.
 
  American and European annual expenditure on pet food: $17 billion
  per year. Estimated annual cost of providing universal healthcare and
  nutrition for everyone in the world: $13 billion per year.
  - United Nations Development Programme, Human Development Report, 1998.
  http://www.undp.org/hdro/1998/98.htm)
 
  See:
  Causes of Poverty
  http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Poverty.asp
 
  Best
 
  Keith



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Re: [biofuel] Bush administration fudging data top scientists warn


Then you probably read it wrong.

But let me try to explain it.


GMO = Lower yields.
Eco = no pesticides but use other methods (biological (natural insects), 
biodynamic (energetic), etc)
Normal = with pesticides, And it has higher yields than GMO crops 
because a high % fails,  and not even  normal agriculture is in my 
opinion good enough, because it can be better, for example by even 
better cultivation, soilmaintainance, and so on.



Lillie Bennett wrote:

 I wasn't talking about higher yields with fertilizers but with GMO. We
 offered seed to Africa for free but it was rejected. What has that got to do
 with patents?
 
 Lillie
 




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[biofuel] Worms?? Was: Bush administration fudging data top scientists warn

2004-02-22 Thread Curtis Sakima


x-charset ISO-8859-1Talk about opening a can of worms ... Gee Todd.  All this 
talk about Mother
Nature (she??) being Scarred ... Science with Dioxin.   We're getting close
to ANOTHER can of worms Todd.You know which one!!  the one with
Mother Earth God  Gaia ...

Remember way back when???

Curtis


- Original Message -
From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Something is askew with that thought process. I suppose that's why species
that become extinct as a result human behavior never return? Because nature
can take care of herself? No. Nature can adjust in the aftermath of human
wrought devastations. But that certainly doesn't mean that she won't be
scarred or eviscerated beyond repair in many circumstances.

Well..., anyway..., science can neither assist or erode. It's the
application of science wherein gain or loss lay. Can you spell nucular? It
 is, after all, science and its abuse that brought us dioxin, PCBs, mercury
advisories, Minimata disease, etc., etc., ad infinitum. You speak of humans
who can't control their own foibles in the political arena but somehow think
that humans are devoid of their same faults in the scientific arena?

Uh..., me thinks you just opened a really monstrous can of worms that
you have virtually no support for.




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/x-charset

Re: [biofuel] Re: America has gone super-sized




look4bryan wrote:


 Not too many farmers growing seafood,wine or beer.

Nonsense!  I live in the Pacific Northwest, where salmon farming is
BIG business.  I grew up in California and went to college in the Napa
Valley.  While I was there, huge swaths of forest were being cleared to
make room for more vinyards.  The wine industry in California alone is
massive, and there are many other places in the country where grapes are
grown for wine.  (Georgia comes to mind, and I also remember vinyards in
Arizona.)  Last time I went to a liquor store in California, I noticed
MANY American beer brands.  (I'm sure you have heard about Budweiser,
Coors, Miller and others.)  If you don't think this industry is big, you
don't know what you're talking about.

  Red meat?  I guarantee you that even with subsidies
 placed on agricultural products, imports can still be cheaper.

You were the one who boasted about the efficiency of American
agriculture, not me.  If we are so efficient, we should be able to
compete without difficulty.  It was YOU who stated that American
agriculture is so efficient prices have dropped to the extent that
farmers are going out of business.  The truth is, however, food imports
are rising in our country.  Please acknowledge the point.

   Maybe McDonalds is sneaking
 kangaroo meat into their Big Macs again.  Red meat doesn't mean
 beef.

I think you're grasping at straws, having written an unsupported
statement.  Not too many people get away with doing so in this forum!

 When was the last time you fellows walked thru Des Moines at any time
 of the day?

I spent two years living in Terrace, British Columbia.  (If you
don't know where that is, I can assure you that Terrace lies well north
of Des Moines!)  I know from personal experience that a walk on a
winter's day can be quite pleasant.

robert luis rabello
The Edge of Justice
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/9782



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[biofuel] Don't any of you play poker? / was Moral Dilemna

2004-02-22 Thread Walt Patrick


International diplomacy is a game of high stakes poker played with 
billion 
dollar chips and stacks of human lives.

Saddam really enjoyed the prestige that came with playing in the high 
stakes game, and did everything he could to make the world think that he 
still had WMD, in part because that kept him at the table, and in part 
because of the prestige that gave him in that part of the world.

It was a bluff because apparently he spent the money not on actual 
weapons 
programs, but on himself and his cronies, and when it came time to show his 
cards, all he held was a busted flush.

What Saddam did was akin to the punk who pulls a fake gun on a cop. The 
punk will definitely succeed at getting the cop's attention, but no matter 
how convincing the fake gun looks, the outcome is not in doubt, and I for 
one can't blame the cop for blowing the fool away.

Walt





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Re: [biofuel] Bush administration fudging data top scientists warn


Hello Lillie

The point I was trying to make since I heard that admission, not my
admission since I like to believe I have scruples, is that everyone with
power wants more and anyone with money wants more; human nature. The top
greens, the ones running the movement are just as corrupt as their enemies.
Many believe global warming is a certainty but many others have doubts and
have historical information that is more convincing to me than computer
simulations. I'm a programmer and know very well that algorithms can be
flawed and junk in means junk out. What does the UN have to gain, well they
want to be the world government and they are certainly using scare tactics.
They want to control you and me and have their hand in our pocket. The thing
is, only God knows the absolute truth and when governments get powerful
enough they become God on Earth but its always politics that wins. Politics
poses as a struggle between right and wrong but it is actually about
winning. The arrogance of humans is in everyone of us, we think we can
overwhelm Mother Nature but are always wrong. Mother Nature can take care of
herself. Now I believe science is the only thing that can save the world,
science like making biodiesel. Like genetically modified food but the greens
have killed that in Europe and forced Africa to comply, so they starve. Most
human suffering is caused by the so called leadership. On and on it goes,
but nobody knows the absolute truth; with humans it's always politics. Now
where is all this hate coming from, some of these posts are reeking with
hate.

Lillie

Re GMOs. Have you bothered to have a look at what 3rd World farmers 
themselves actually say about the GMOs the Monsantos et al in cahoots 
with their bought-off or pressured-off governments are trying to 
force down their throats? Broad-brushing the greens for 
discrediting an allegedly worthwhile technology is a stance that has 
no legs to support it, you're hanging precariously in very thin air. 
There's such an embarrassment of riches by way of counter-evidence to 
your view that I don't know where to start (other than to wonder why 
you didn't - start, that is). For one thing, GMOs do NOT increase 
yields (nor reduce pesticide use, rather they increase it), do NOT 
improve food security, and have little if anything to do with 
alleviating hunger. Here's a rare moment of honesty:

The advice could scarcely have come from a more surprising source. 
If anyone tells you that GM is going to feed the world, Steve 
Smith, a director of the world's biggest biotechnology company, 
Novartis, insisted, tell them that it is not... To feed the world 
takes political and financial will - it's not about production and 
distribution.
From: Biotech has bamboozled us all
Studies suggest that traditional farming methods are still the best
George Monbiot
Guardian
Thursday August 24, 2000
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4054683,00.html

See also:
Bad for the Poor and Bad for Science, by Colin Tudge
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0220-09.htm

See: GMOs Not Answer to Poverty/Hunger in Africa - New Study 
(Genetically Modified Crops and Sustainable Poverty Alleviation in 
Sub-Saharan Africa: An Assessment of Current Evidence, Aaron 
deGrassis)
http://allafrica.com/stories/200306240443.html
A new study released by Third World Network-Africa 
(www.twnafrica.org) offers new evidence against claims of the 
miracle potential of genetically modified crops for dealing with 
famine and poverty in Africa.

After examining the impact of three genetically modified crops, 
sweet potato, maize and Bt cotton, on poverty alleviation in Africa 
it concluded that biotechnology does not address the real causes of 
poverty and hunger in Africa. Indeed it shows that biotechnology is 
an inappropriate method of agricultural innovation for poverty 
alleviation.

More about this study:
http://www.gmwatch.org/archive2.asp?arcid=1006
GMWatch.org
Trade Wars and Media Campaigns - a powerful new analysis (27/6/2003)

See GM Crops - Going Against the Grain:
GM crops will not feed the world and could pose a considerable 
threat to poor farmers, warns a new report launched today by 
ActionAid. GM Crops - Going Against the Grain examines biotech 
companies' claims that genetically modified (GM) crops can tackle 
world hunger. The report is being submitted to the Government in 
advance of the UK public debate starting on 3 June.

GM Crops - Going Against the Grain reveals that at best GM crops are 
irrelevant to poor farmers, at worst they threaten to push them 
deeper into debt, making them more reliant on expensive seeds and 
chemicals and unable to save seed from one harvest to the next.
http://www.actionaid.org/ourpriorities/foodrights/gmtechnology/gmcrops.shtml
full report:
http://www.actionaid.org/resources/pdfs/gatg.pdf
PANNA: GE Crops Won't End Hunger
http://www.panna.org/resources/panups/panup_20030530.dv.html
GM crops of no benefit to poor, says ActionAid

Re: [biofuel] America has gone super-sized




Dave Williams wrote:

   Nobody needs to justify sprawl.  Life in the human anthills that
 large cities exemplify is not good, something self-evident to everyone

 except the people who have to live there, who usually try to make out
 like everyone should be as happy as they are.

You missed my point.  The classism that underlies your attitude is
used to justify sprawl and the ensuing traffic problems that arise from
it.

   You're the one who dragged in the poor people thing; perhaps you
 can
 explain it...

Your description of human detritus included subsets of a larger
population group.  These people tend to be poor and include most human
beings on earth.  Is that clear now?


   Yep.  Except for your poor people you inserted in there again for
 bait...


So you accept my contention that you believe you are superior to
other people?


   Yep.  That's what we have a military *for*.  Cheap gas, cheap tea,
 you
 have to buy your votes somehow when you're in public office.

Please find that in the Constitution!  Here's what it actually says,
in Article 1, Section 8, concerning the fiscal responsibility of the
Congress in maintaining armed forces:

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to
that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years; To provide and
maintain a Navy; To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the
land an naval Forces; To provide for calling forth the Militia to
execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and Repel
Invasions.

Get off your sanctimonious high horse!


   What do you mean we?  Elevating yourself up to my pedestal?

Like it or not, I'm an American too.  However, I have no wish to
elevate myself needlessly.  I am the citizen of a great nation, but I
don't need to boast about it.


   And now, after several attempts, you make a hard right turn off to
 La-La Land...

Only because you fail to understand my point.


 ...and the yellow brick road has no speed limits...

Ridicule doesn't help your cause.  Show some facts, please.

   How else are you going to get German beer,  Scotch whisky, French
 chocolates, or Marmite?  Or perhaps we're not supposed to buy (or
 want?)
 anything not grown within the borders of the USA?

We have ALWAYS imported these things.  But imports of basic foods,
such as meat and vegetables, has been rising steadily for years.  Did
you bother to read any of the references I posted?

   Arrogant?  That I live better than 3/4 of the people in the world,
 and
 I'm proud of it?  If that's arrogance to you, why sure, I'm that
 arrogant all the time.


Living better is one thing.  Boasting that your class superiority is
the REASON for living better is quite a different thing.


   Ah!  Having exhausted the small resources of fact and logic
 available,
 you resort to the last-ditch effort of the loser...

You have yet to prove a single point in this discourse.  You've made
unsupported statements about the superiority of the American agriculture
system.  I'm still waiting for evidence from you.

   Sackcloth and ashes, or just self-flagellation?

How about reasonable reflection?  If you weren't so busy
congratulating yourself you might find the exercise a good way to expand
your ability to think.


   Did you ever notice costs never just increase?  They always spiral.
 I've often wondered why.

Deal with the point, not the semantics.  Increasing health care
costs due to obesity WILL be paid one way or another.

   I read a magazine article on it once.

I'm surprised you'd bother to read about the poor, given your
arrogant attitude.


   You're kidding?  You're not kidding?  No, I didn't sit in it.  Nor
 did
 I sit in the one full of puke.  But I imagine they'll be available for

 you whenever you want.

I have been to many different cities and have ridden on public
transportation in places as diverse as Rio de Janeiro and Washington,
D.C.  Never once have I seen, smelled or even heard a rumor of urine or
vomit in a seat.  Most people are polite.  Most people leave other
commuters alone.


   At the places I've worked at - probably much higher up the scale
 than
 yours - walking around accompanied by the odor of stale urine is a
 social gaffe.

So you're afraid of smelling like pee?  All of this attitude and
nonsense about your personal superiority stems from fear of urine
smell?  How pathetic!

Getting back to the whole point of the original message:  Post some
support for your position, or drop the thread.


robert luis rabello
The Edge of Justice
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/9782



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Re: [biofuel] Don't any of you play poker? / was Moral Dilemna

2004-02-22 Thread Fred Finch


Hey Walt,

Your analogy was only partially correct.  He held a fake gun and the judge 
said that the cop would shoot unless he proved it was a fake gun.  He began 
to show that he had no bullets and the cop shot him anyway.

Don't forget that there were inspectors allowed back into Iraq before the 
US went on it's little war.

fred



At 09:51 AM 2/22/2004 -0800, you wrote:
 International diplomacy is a game of high stakes poker played 
 with billion
dollar chips and stacks of human lives.

 Saddam really enjoyed the prestige that came with playing in the 
 high
stakes game, and did everything he could to make the world think that he
still had WMD, in part because that kept him at the table, and in part
because of the prestige that gave him in that part of the world.

 It was a bluff because apparently he spent the money not on 
 actual weapons
programs, but on himself and his cronies, and when it came time to show his
cards, all he held was a busted flush.

 What Saddam did was akin to the punk who pulls a fake gun on a 
 cop. The
punk will definitely succeed at getting the cop's attention, but no matter
how convincing the fake gun looks, the outcome is not in doubt, and I for
one can't blame the cop for blowing the fool away.

Walt






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Re: [biofuel] Lead and asbestos

2004-02-22 Thread DokDream


Hakan wrote:

Jay,

The rest of the world does not use asbestos products, they have for a 
long time been prohibited in EU countries. They are also very many 
restrictions to minimize exposures to lead.

It is many developing countries that do not have protection, because of 
corruption, lack of frame work or capacity. Many less scrupulous 
corporations are still dumping products in those countries aided and 
abetted by their less scrupulous and corrupted governments. I do not regard 
them as working with permission the rest of the world nor that the 
victims know what is going on.

US is very active and we can only take the Bophal disaster as an example. 
Where more innocent people was killed, than the latest Iraq occupation. US 
is still protecting the corporate leaders from answering in court and help 
the corporation to cap claims on damages. That is US foreign policy. Many 
US jobs would not be exported, if US held their own corporations 
accountable for only proper minimum safety standard, or good business ethics.

An innocent Iraqi life is worth maximum $2,500 in damages and it is plenty 
of easy rules and excuses for paying nothing. How can it be that the 
American public is surprised that it is some minor problems to win the 
hearts and minds. In a country that 80% of the population are women or 
children under 15 years of age and not counting old age men. US cannot 
establish law and order with 100,000 to 150,000 of troops and enormous fire 
power, among around 4,000,000 able men. The you have US, who claim that the 
opposition to the occupation is a small minority, but of course, children 
and women have no say. LOL

You only have to look at the numbers and apply a little bit logic and the 
propaganda machines are easily exposed. I have refrained from comments 
after the Iraqi war, this because it is difficult for me to do, without 
saying what did I said. It is however never too late for US to start 
adopting responsible foreign policies. It is many countries, who is 
pillaging and utilizing the developing countries, but US stands out in this 
crowd.

Hakan

I think you have deviated substantially from the topic of asbestos and lead.  
In an effort to drag the conversation back to this, I offer the following 
report.  

-- Jay


U.S. Geological Survey
Open-File Report 03-083
Version 1.0 



Worldwide Asbestos Supply and Consumption Trends from 1900 to 2000 

By Robert L. Virta 

Abstract

The use of asbestos is one of the most controversial issues surrounding the 
industrial minerals industry. Its carcinogenic nature, an overall lack of 
knowledge of minimum safe exposure levels, its widespread use for more than 100 
years, and the long latency for the development of lung cancer and mesothelioma 
are the main contributing factors to these controversies. Another factor is 
that, despite decades of research, the mechanisms responsible for its 
carcinogenic properties are still largely unknown. The United States has 
produced about 
3.28 million metric tons of asbestos fiber and used approximately 31.5 million 
tons between 1900 and 2000. About half of this amount was used since 1960. 
Cumulative world production during that same time period was about 173 million 
tons. Assuming that unusually large stocks are not maintained and that world 
consumption roughly equals production, about half of the world production and 
consumption occurred since 1976. The United States and western European nations 
were the largest consumers of asbestos during the first two-thirds of the 20th 
century. They were surpassed by the collective production and consumption of 
States within the former Soviet Union by the 1970s. With the onset of the 
health issues concerning asbestos in the late 1960s and early 1970s, world 
production and consumption began to decline during the 1980s. In 2000, world 
consumption, estimated to be 1.48 million tons, was only 31% that of 1980. 
Countries in 
Asia, South America, and the former Soviet Union remain the largest users of 
asbestos. More specifically, Brazil, China, India, Japan, Russia, and Thailand 
are the only countries that consumed more than 60,000 tons of asbestos in 
2000. These six countries accounted for more than 80% of worldfs apparent 
consumption in 2000.





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[biofuel] Pentagon tells Bush: climate change will destroy us -- was: Climate Change Alert

2004-02-22 Thread MH


x-charset ISO-8859-1   Can Bush ignore the Pentagon? It's going be hard to 
blow off this
   sort of document. Its hugely embarrassing. After all, Bush's single
   highest priority is national defence. The Pentagon is no wacko,
   liberal group, generally speaking it is conservative. If climate change
   is a threat to national security and the economy, then he has to act.
   There are two groups the Bush Administration tend to listen to, the
   oil lobby and the Pentagon,' added Watson. 

  The findings will prove humiliating to the Bush administration, which
  has repeatedly denied that climate change even exists. Experts said
  that they will also make unsettling reading for a President who has
  insisted national defence is a priority. 

  The report was commissioned by influential Pentagon defence
  adviser Andrew Marshall, who has held considerable sway on US
  military thinking over the past three decades. He was the man
  behind a sweeping recent review aimed at transforming the
  American military under Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. 



 http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1153513,00.html 

 Now the Pentagon tells Bush: 
 climate change will destroy us 

 ?Secret report warns of rioting and nuclear war
 ?Britain will be 'Siberian' in less than 20 years 
 ?Threat to the world is greater than terrorism 

Mark Townsend and Paul Harris in New York
Sunday February 22, 2004
The Observer 

 Climate change over the next 20 years could result in a global
 catastrophe costing millions of lives in wars and natural disasters.. 

 A secret report, suppressed by US defence chiefs and obtained by
 The Observer, warns that major European cities will be sunk
 beneath rising seas as Britain is plunged into a 'Siberian' climate by
 2020. Nuclear conflict, mega-droughts, famine and widespread
 rioting will erupt across the world. 

 The document predicts that abrupt climate change could bring the
 planet to the edge of anarchy as countries develop a nuclear threat
 to defend and secure dwindling food, water and energy supplies.
 The threat to global stability vastly eclipses that of terrorism, say the
 few experts privy to its contents. 

 'Disruption and conflict will be endemic features of life,' concludes
 the Pentagon analysis. 'Once again, warfare would define human life.' 

 The findings will prove humiliating to the Bush administration, which
 has repeatedly denied that climate change even exists. Experts said
 that they will also make unsettling reading for a President who has
 insisted national defence is a priority. 

 The report was commissioned by influential Pentagon defence
 adviser Andrew Marshall, who has held considerable sway on US
 military thinking over the past three decades. He was the man
 behind a sweeping recent review aimed at transforming the
 American military under Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. 

 Climate change 'should be elevated beyond a scientific debate to a
 US national security concern', say the authors, Peter Schwartz, CIA
 consultant and former head of planning at Royal Dutch/Shell Group,
 and Doug Randall of the California-based Global Business
 Network. 

 An imminent scenario of catastrophic climate change is 'plausible
 and would challenge United States national security in ways that
 should be considered immediately', they conclude. As early as next
 year widespread flooding by a rise in sea levels will create major
 upheaval for millions. 

 Last week the Bush administration came under heavy fire from a
 large body of respected scientists who claimed that it cherry-picked
 science to suit its policy agenda and suppressed studies that it did
 not like. Jeremy Symons, a former whistleblower at the
 Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), said that suppression of the
 report for four months was a further example of the White House
 trying to bury the threat of climate change. 

 Senior climatologists, however, believe that their verdicts could
 prove the catalyst in forcing Bush to accept climate change as a real
 and happening phenomenon. They also hope it will convince the
 United States to sign up to global treaties to reduce the rate of
 climatic change. 

 A group of eminent UK scientists recently visited the White House to
 voice their fears over global warming, part of an intensifying drive to
 get the US to treat the issue seriously. Sources have told The
 Observer that American officials appeared extremely sensitive about
 the issue when faced with complaints that America's public stance
 appeared increasingly out of touch. 

 One even alleged that the White House had written to complain
 about some of the comments attributed to Professor Sir David King,
 Tony Blair's chief scientific adviser, after he branded the President's
 position on the issue as indefensible. 

 Among those scientists present at the White House talks were
 Professor John Schellnhuber, former chief environmental adviser to
 the German government and

Re: [biofuel] Bush administration fudging data top scientists warn



Lillie,

I think that you need to study the subject a bit more and
think about the real consequences. A GM version of i.e.
corn, is owned by a corporation, it is not in the public domain.
If US government offers it for free, it is paid for and the strain
will replace the natural one. The Monsano and equals, will
not produce and deliver it for free, or allow it to be grown
without license, if it can be locally produced in a natural way.

To this goes special fertilizers and chemicals, which is
(or maybe in reality not) prescribed by the owner of the seed.
Guess who sells them?

Then the yield might at the end be the same anyway. Many
of GMO is like the fairy tale,
http://energy.saving.nu/resources/nailsoup.shtml

Only think about that if the corporations can get in complete
control of energy, water, food, medicine and with strong
patents around it. Then come speech, sex, music, etc. etc.
and they will collect license fees on everything. They are well
on the way. Ask yourself why US want a strong copy right and
patent protection, it is a vital part of the new society of the
corporations. The problem is that the corporations are state
less and will not be obliged to stay in the US, so it is not even
beneficial for the US population, in the long run.

Hakan

At 17:26 22/02/2004, you wrote:
I wasn't talking about higher yields with fertilizers but with GMO. We
offered seed to Africa for free but it was rejected. What has that got to do
with patents?

Lillie

- Original Message -
From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2004 11:01 AM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Bush administration fudging data top scientists warn


 
  Lillie,
 
  Higher yields has been discussed a lot, in Spain it has had very
  negative consequences. The cocktail of fertilizers and chemicals
  that goes with it, is outright crazy.
 
  The only thing that has been proven, is that it is a smart way to
  patent and monopolizing food by corporations. Something that
  should be forbidden. Take away the right to patent food and then
  see what interest that is left. You would very rapidly get to the
  truth of this matter.
 
  Hakan
 
 
  At 15:49 22/02/2004, you wrote:
  We in the US are eating it. GMO provides more yield without as much
harmful
  pesticides and saves land area which allows more forests to consume any
  excess co2. I'm no expert but it sounds like a good thing. What's wrong
with
  profit? Without it there would be no economy.
  
  Lillie
  
  - Original Message -
  From: jkolling [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2004 4:49 AM
  Subject: Re: [biofuel] Bush administration fudging data top scientists
warn
  
  
Lillie Bennett wrote:
  Like genetically modified food but the greens
 have killed that in Europe and forced Africa to comply, so they
starve.
   
Yeah, that's right, treat the symptoms by forcing out more profit and
using poor and hungry people to try it on, because they are
unresistant.
Instead of eliminating the real reasons (rape of the country for all
it
resources for little, LITTLE money.
   
Happy brainwashin day!




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Re: [biofuel] Re: America has gone super-sized




Keith Addison wrote:

  Hi Robert

 Was it him, or the other one? The other one I think - or did both of
 them do it? Sorry, it gets a bit blurred sometimes, seems to be such
 a stereotyped set of views, see one and you can guess all the others.

Yes, it IS difficult to keep all of them straight.

big snip

 Etc etc. I'm at a loss to see anything at all that could be regarded
 as efficiency.

I remember one of my uncles coming up from Brasil back in the
1960's.  He was an agricultural research scientist at the time, so we
proudly paraded him around some fields in California, thinking he would
learn from our advanced agriculture.  Rather, he scoffed and said
something to the effect of: This is California exporting its soil for
profit.  I dismissed his remark at the time, thinking (rather
arrogantly) that his remarks were simply anti American.

I'm older now, and I no longer think like a child.  I don't have to
put my country up on some unrealistic and unsupported pedestal to feel
good about my citizenship.  I've read somewhere (was it Plato?) that an
unexamined life is not worth living.  People who post thoughtless,
unsupported nonsense fall under that criticism--but there I go, acting
like an intellectual snob again!

another big snip


 For my part, I haven't had the time (we just did another biodiesel
 seminar here today, good, but hard work, and lots of preparation),
 nor, I'll admit, the inclination. Seems to me there's no discussion
 involved, you're faced with what I was saying the other day, people
 who'd rather preserve their cherished notions against all comers,
 including facts, evidence, history, anything that doesn't agree with
 them, all of which will be labelled and dismissed, sneered at, or
 just ignored, but never considered, while they themselves see no need
 to substantiate what they say - after all, everybody knows that.

Sigh. . .  I've been home with the flu all week, so I've had some
time.  But I will be returning to work tomorrow, and I won't have time
for this nonsense either!

 As
 a discussion it has no integrity whatsoever, it's a total waste of
 time, and about the most tedious thing I know. You take a bit of time
 (not very much, but still, it's your time) to counter nonsense like
 the above about US farming efficiency, but what hope is there that
 it'll even be read? Instead more thoughtless and careless obfuscation
 and denial gets chucked back, taking up little or no time, and you
 have to counter that too. About the best you can hope for is that
 they finally get outgunned and don't respond - and come back again in
 a few weeks or months pretending it never happened and post the very
 same crap all over again. It's like being pecked to death by a duck.

Indeed!  We've seen this repeated many times in this forum.
Sometimes I wonder where these people come from, and why they're
interested in biofuels at all. . .


robert luis rabello
The Edge of Justice
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/9782



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Re: [biofuel] America has gone super-sized




Dave Williams wrote:

   You'll have to explain the classism thing further.  The way you
 use
 it, it makes me think it's something bad.

Classism is a philosophy that pits the alleged superiority of one
group against another, by virtue of the higher social or economic
standing enjoyed by the first group.

   You may contend it if you wish.  To me, it is self-evident.


Since you believe this, there is no point in discussing anything
with you and this conversation is now over.


robert luis rabello
The Edge of Justice
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/9782



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Re: [biofuel] Let's clarify this Was: Bush administration fudging data top scientists warn


x-charset ISO-8859-1Didn't say. Didn't imply it. But I will state 
unequivocally that there must
be greater cooperation between nation states in every venue.

The overwhelming problems that humanity is now facing, which certainly won't
lessen unless there is international cooperation, neither start nor end at a
sovreign state's borders.

No different than there has to be cooperation between neighbors to some
degree in your local community, there must be cooperation to similar degree
between the international community. Otherwise you can expect a living
hell - perhaps in your lifetime on home soil.

What certainly is not needed is the tyranny of the few over the many.

Todd Swearingen

- Original Message - 
From: Curtis Sakima [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2004 12:13 PM
Subject: [biofuel] Let's clarify this Was: Bush administration fudging data
top scientists warn


 Gee Todd, you're not advocating that the U.N.  SHOULD merge us all into
 one-big World Government  are you??

 IMHO, having all nation leaders reduced to Global Senators in some kind
of
 Global-level Senate (U.N.) is NOT something that we need.

 Curtis


 - Original Message -
 From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED]

  What does the UN have to gain, well they
  want to be the world government and they are certainly using scare
  tactics.

 Who really cares? Does anyone honestly believe that they could do a worse
 job than the fractionalized, self-serving pontificates that are presently
 snotting all over humanity? Not that it will ever happen to even a remote
 degree that so many people decry in their not-so-fleeting moments of
 paranoia. But it is high time that nation-states began to acknowledge that
 the consequences of their actions don't simply stop at their borders.





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Re: [biofuel] Lead and asbestos


x-charset ISO-8859-1
Jay,

Thanks for your support, the article offers that, for what I say in the 
first paragraphs. I expanded on the issue, with some more things that is 
parts of the same problem. I am not in favor of you cannot kill them at 
home, but nobody bothers abroad.

Asbestos use in buildings, was prohibited in Sweden early 1960's. Together 
with some other dangerous materials.

Hakan


At 20:12 22/02/2004, you wrote:
Hakan wrote:

Jay,

The rest of the world does not use asbestos products, they have for a
long time been prohibited in EU countries. They are also very many
restrictions to minimize exposures to lead.

It is many developing countries that do not have protection, because of
corruption, lack of frame work or capacity. Many less scrupulous
corporations are still dumping products in those countries aided and
abetted by their less scrupulous and corrupted governments. I do not regard
them as working with permission the rest of the world nor that the
victims know what is going on.

US is very active and we can only take the Bophal disaster as an example.
Where more innocent people was killed, than the latest Iraq occupation. US
is still protecting the corporate leaders from answering in court and help
the corporation to cap claims on damages. That is US foreign policy. Many
US jobs would not be exported, if US held their own corporations
accountable for only proper minimum safety standard, or good business ethics.

An innocent Iraqi life is worth maximum $2,500 in damages and it is plenty
of easy rules and excuses for paying nothing. How can it be that the
American public is surprised that it is some minor problems to win the
hearts and minds. In a country that 80% of the population are women or
children under 15 years of age and not counting old age men. US cannot
establish law and order with 100,000 to 150,000 of troops and enormous fire
power, among around 4,000,000 able men. The you have US, who claim that the
opposition to the occupation is a small minority, but of course, children
and women have no say. LOL

You only have to look at the numbers and apply a little bit logic and the
propaganda machines are easily exposed. I have refrained from comments
after the Iraqi war, this because it is difficult for me to do, without
saying what did I said. It is however never too late for US to start
adopting responsible foreign policies. It is many countries, who is
pillaging and utilizing the developing countries, but US stands out in this
crowd.

Hakan

I think you have deviated substantially from the topic of asbestos and lead.
In an effort to drag the conversation back to this, I offer the following
report.

-- Jay


U.S. Geological Survey
Open-File Report 03-083
Version 1.0



Worldwide Asbestos Supply and Consumption Trends from 1900 to 2000

By Robert L. Virta

Abstract

The use of asbestos is one of the most controversial issues surrounding the
industrial minerals industry. Its carcinogenic nature, an overall lack of
knowledge of minimum safe exposure levels, its widespread use for more 
than 100
years, and the long latency for the development of lung cancer and 
mesothelioma
are the main contributing factors to these controversies. Another factor is
that, despite decades of research, the mechanisms responsible for its
carcinogenic properties are still largely unknown. The United States has 
produced about
3.28 million metric tons of asbestos fiber and used approximately 31.5 
million
tons between 1900 and 2000. About half of this amount was used since 1960.
Cumulative world production during that same time period was about 173 
million
tons. Assuming that unusually large stocks are not maintained and that world
consumption roughly equals production, about half of the world production and
consumption occurred since 1976. The United States and western European 
nations
were the largest consumers of asbestos during the first two-thirds of the 
20th
century. They were surpassed by the collective production and consumption of
States within the former Soviet Union by the 1970s. With the onset of the
health issues concerning asbestos in the late 1960s and early 1970s, world
production and consumption began to decline during the 1980s. In 2000, world
consumption, estimated to be 1.48 million tons, was only 31% that of 1980. 
Countries in
Asia, South America, and the former Soviet Union remain the largest users of
asbestos. More specifically, Brazil, China, India, Japan, Russia, and 
Thailand
are the only countries that consumed more than 60,000 tons of asbestos in
2000. These six countries accounted for more than 80% of world’s apparent
consumption in 2000.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Re: [biofuel] America has gone super-sized


x-charset ISO-8859-1Dave,

  Get off your sanctimonious high horse!

   And what gives you the right to demand such a thing?  Other your own
 bloated sense of self-importance and righteousness, I mean.

Probably the expression is aired because you're being such an ass.

Perhaps were your words not so blatantly arrogant and your thoughts capable
of holding to the thread of a conversation  rather than being so scattered
and obfuscating you might be viewed differently.

But I doubt if that's what you want.

Pity that.

Todd Swearingen

- Original Message - 
From: Dave Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2004 2:41 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] America has gone super-sized


 robert luis rabello wrote:

  You missed my point.  The classism that underlies your attitude is
  used to justify sprawl and the ensuing traffic problems that arise from
  it.

   You'll have to explain the classism thing further.  The way you use
 it, it makes me think it's something bad.


   You're the one who dragged in the poor people thing; perhaps you
 can
 explain it...
 
  Your description of human detritus included subsets of a larger
  population group.  These people tend to be poor and include most human
  beings on earth.  Is that clear now?

   I made a specific statement; you changed it, and you now want me to
 defend something I didn't say.  Typical for this sort of discussion.


  So you accept my contention that you believe you are superior to
  other people?

   You may contend it if you wish.  To me, it is self-evident.


  Get off your sanctimonious high horse!

   And what gives you the right to demand such a thing?  Other your own
 bloated sense of self-importance and righteousness, I mean.


   What do you mean we?  Elevating yourself up to my pedestal?
 
  Like it or not, I'm an American too.  However, I have no wish to
  elevate myself needlessly.  I am the citizen of a great nation, but I
  don't need to boast about it.

   As an American, that's your privilege.  Which does not override my
 privilege.


  Living better is one thing.  Boasting that your class superiority is
  the REASON for living better is quite a different thing.

   And where did I do that?  This exchange is only half a dozen messages
 old; it shouldn't take you all that long to go back and find that part.
   Or, specifically, that you've been putting words in my mouth again.

   Is this just a shotgun debate approach for you, or do you really find
 people dumb enough to fall for that kind of tactics?


  You have yet to prove a single point in this discourse.  You've made
  unsupported statements about the superiority of the American agriculture
  system.  I'm still waiting for evidence from you.

   I couldn't prove anything to you with a hammer and chisel.  Which is
 why I'm skipping the let's go hunt increasingly obscure facts and my
 sources are better than your sources steps.


  How about reasonable reflection?  If you weren't so busy
  congratulating yourself you might find the exercise a good way to expand
  your ability to think.

   Maybe I ought to try that.  I'm having a hard time with Roger Penrose'
 The Emperor's New Mind.  I thought it was supposed to be about
 cosmology, but the first part of the book was all about antique computer
 algorithms.  State machines, get real...


   I read a magazine article on it once.
 
  I'm surprised you'd bother to read about the poor, given your
  arrogant attitude.

   I think it was US News  World Report while I was waiting for my
 appointment with my broker.  I thought it was very artful how USNWR
 justaposes the pictures of starving children across from the Cadillac
 ads.  Makes you feel glad there aren't any of them around to put
 fingerprints all over your Escalade...


  I have been to many different cities and have ridden on public
  transportation in places as diverse as Rio de Janeiro and Washington,
  D.C.  Never once have I seen, smelled or even heard a rumor of urine or
  vomit in a seat.  Most people are polite.  Most people leave other
  commuters alone.

   You've been very lucky.  It won't last.


   At the places I've worked at - probably much higher up the scale
 than
 yours - walking around accompanied by the odor of stale urine is a
 social gaffe.
 
  So you're afraid of smelling like pee?  All of this attitude and
  nonsense about your personal superiority stems from fear of urine
  smell?  How pathetic!

   How did fear get into this?  Ah, yes, more of the try to sidetrack
 the discussion tactics again.


  Getting back to the whole point of the original message:  Post some
  support for your position, or drop the thread.

   Is this an order, no-class-boy?  You're the one who keeps coming back,
 like a horsefly buzzing a bug zapper.

 -- 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Dave Williams)==
 == waiting, anticipating / for someone to save her soul / well,

Re: [biofuel] Lead and asbestos

2004-02-22 Thread bob allen


x-charset windows-1252[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


  The cases of lung cancer or mesotheleoma 
attributed to asbestos have dropped so low I can't even find a recent 
reference.


Try Libby Montana
http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/asbestos/asbestos_study.html


A mortality review 
http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/asbestos/mortality_in_libby.html, which 
compared death rates for residents of the Libby area with those in 
Montana and the United States for selected diseases associated with 
exposure to asbestos (19791998). The review found that for the 20-year 
period examined, mortality from asbestosis was approximately 40 times 
higher than the rest of Montana and 60 times higher than the rest of the 
United States.




-- 
Bob 
=
The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral 
philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for 
selfishness  JKG



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Re: [biofuel] Don't any of you play poker? / was Moral Dilemna

2004-02-22 Thread Walt Patrick


At 12:24 PM 2/22/04 -0600, fred wrote:
 Hey Walt,
 
 Your analogy was only partially correct.  He held a fake gun and the judge
 said that the cop would shoot unless he proved it was a fake gun.  He began
 to show that he had no bullets and the cop shot him anyway.

Not true. The cop knew that he had lots of bullets since (1) his father 
sold them to  him, and (2) he'd already used them to kill lots of his 
neighbors. There wasn't any question that Saddam had WMD, the only question 
was what he'd done with them.

 Don't forget that there were inspectors allowed back into Iraq before the
 US went on it's little war.

Time and time again. That's why Clinton, Gore, Kerry and company 
concluded 
that Saddam was noncompliant to a degree which justified the use of 
military force to resolve the issue.

Perhaps another analogy will help. Two drunks are in a bar calling each 
other vile names. Drunk A pulls out a gun and shoots Drunk B.

However improper it was for Drunk A to shoot Drunk B, it's quite clear 
that Drunk B was a fool to get into a heated argument with an armed drunk. 
Natural law tends to go hard on such fools.

Walt 



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[biofuel] reply to Dave Williams, was Re: America has gone super-sized

2004-02-22 Thread Thor Skov

Message: 10
   Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 09:29:09 -0600
   From: Dave Williams 
Subject: Re: America has gone super-sized

Dave Williams wrote:

  He obviously hasn't seen any of those new
half-sized soft drink cans.  Which, in my area, sell
for a nickel more than the full-sized can.  In
DaveWorld, if I only wanted half a Coke, it'd be
cheaper to buy the big one, drink what I wanted, and
throw the rest away.

That would work fine Dave (though its hardly the
efficient agricultural model you talked about), if
in fact there were such a place as away.  The
problem is, there is no away.  The biosphere is one
enormous self-contained, and self-sustaining (with the
input of solar energy) system.  Burning garbage, or
burying it in landfills, or dumping at the bottom of
the ocean may seem like putting it away, but on the
scale we practice it, its just the messy end of a
linear industrial process.  Nature is a closed loop
system  everything gets recycled and reused and
remade.  Our industrial system and our agricultural
system do the opposite.  They had external inputs
and generate waste products that are supposed to go
away outside the system into some external area
called the environment.  But weve long passed the
ability of the environment to handle our wastes, or
supply the inputs we need on a sustainable basis. 
Sustainable, by the way, means capable of being
continuing indefinitely, barring unforeseen changes.

American agriculture is the most efficient in the
world.  Period.  It's so efficient, farmers have
oversupplied their markets until prices have dropped
so much many of them are on the verge of going broke,
but that's another story.  Food is so cheap, most
American families don't even bother to budget for it;
it's just an incidental expentiture.
Yeah, lots of Americans are fat.  Because we're so
rich, we can afford to feed out pets better than some
countries can feed their own citizenry.

Dave, I am quite curious how you define efficiency? 
You are aware, I am certain, of the enormous
agricultural subsidies the US government provides to
US agriculture.  And Im not talking just the farm
bill here.  There are the billions of dollars spent
over the previous century for building dams and other
irrigation infrastructure, that give water to many
farmers for free, or at prices far below market
levels.  There are the exemptions to labor laws for
migrant farm workers, without which a lot of growers
in California and the southwest would not survive.  I
am sure you also know how Midwest farmers have
destroyed much of the fertility of the plains through
practices that send billions of tons of topsoil down
the Mississippi and out to sea.  And then there is the
dependence on fossil fuel inputs for fertilizer and
fuel.

None of this is sustainable, and I dont see how it
can be considered efficient.  Productive it
certainly is, in the short term, much as taking
amphetamines gives you energy and focus beyond what
you can normally; eventually you crash, and crash
hard.

By the way, the reason we can afford to feed our pets
so well (if you can call mad-cow infected rendering
material good feed) is that it is a by-product of our
centralized industrial agricultural system, one that
is now beginning to experience the consequences of its
inherent unsustainability.  You can fight nature all
you want, but nature always wins.

 All of this just confirmed a pet theory of mine,
that the problem in 
 America is that food and gas are simply too cheap.
When it costs you 
 $100 (Canadian) to fill your gas tank, as it does
when I go to the 
 service station in London in my ancient VW Passat,
you think twice of 
 buying a mastodon that gets half the mileage.

  Too cheap.  ROFL.  I love that kind of inverted
comparisons.  I can use it next time I'm in some
country where everyone has rotten teeth, and comment
that American dentists work too cheap. 

Im going to guess but I think that the phrase too
cheap here really means that the price of the fuel
doesnt reflect its true cost.  It means that its
subsidized.  If gasoline prices reflected the true
environmental, military/foreign policy, health, and
social costs of its use, I think youd be paying just
a bit more than youd like at the pump.  But as long
as I subsidize that with my tax dollars, perhaps you
think thats ok?

  Public transit?  That's where I can take a subway
that gets me to work half an hour late every day,
standing clinging to a pole while a hundred people
cough germs into my face?  Or is that the bus, where I
try to find a seat nobody has urinated in?  And either
are so far from where I live, that I have to fire up
the car and drive to the station?

I am sorry you have had such a poor experience with
public transit.  I encourage you to visit Denmark, or
London, or Tokyo, or Paris, or Seattle, where you
would find amazingly convenient and EFFICIENT public
transportation.  I live in Seattle, and my girlfriend
takes the bus downtown every day to

Re: [biofuel] Worms?? Was: Bush administration fudging data top scientists warn