[Biofuel] Power Consumption of Lighting Timers
Hi all, I hope the cross-post is OK. I'm looking at adding a photo-sensitive lighting timer for my lamp post light. However, I'm having a hard time finding the energy consumption of the timer itself. Our lamp post light is already on a photo sensor and we use a CFL bulb. Ideally, the timer will only consume energy while the light is on and it should consume a watt or less in order to make it practical and beneficial. I can't seem to find that information, though. Any help you might be able to provide would be appreciated. Thanks, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] WVO Sludge Disposal - Cross posted
What are you doing with your WVO sludge? I know this topics been discussed in the past but, it seems only to a limited degree. I have two needs - the first is long term - how am I going to handle the sludge from my regular use? I use WVO in my car and in my boiler. The second concern is more immediate...I have a fair amount of WVO sludge (probably around 100 gallons) and I need to find a eco-friendly solution for disposing of it. I think 100 gallons is more than my compost pile can handle. Furthermore, some of the oil that I had was less than ideal quality so the sludge really stinks. I also think that I could dispose of it one cubie at a time in my trash pickup but, that is not eco-friendly at all. One thing is certain - I have to be more selective about the restaurants that I get my oil from. Thanks in advance, Ken -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080514/dbe5eecd/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Official: organic really is better
Interestingly, I can't find a single reference to hese findings in a single reputable U.S. source. I have recently seen media coverage that directly contradicts this study, though. I'm very curious if we (here in the U.S.) ever see any coverage on the topic. Given the ridiculous USDA organic standards (if you can call them standards), I'm not sure how much it would matter. On 10/29/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/health/article2753446.ece From The Sunday Times October 28, 2007 Official: organic really is better Jon Ungoed-Thomas THE biggest study into organic food has found that it is more nutritious than ordinary produce and may help to lengthen people's lives. The evidence from the £12m four-year project will end years of debate and is likely to overturn government advice that eating organic food is no more than a lifestyle choice. The study found that organic fruit and vegetables contained as much as 40% more antioxidants, which scientists believe can cut the risk of cancer and heart disease, Britain's biggest killers. They also had higher levels of beneficial minerals such as iron and zinc. Professor Carlo Leifert, the co-ordinator of the European Union-funded project, said the differences were so marked that organic produce would help to increase the nutrient intake of people not eating the recommended five portions a day of fruit and vegetables. If you have just 20% more antioxidants and you can't get your kids to do five a day, then you might just be okay with four a day, he said. This weekend the Food Standards Agency confirmed that it was reviewing the evidence before deciding whether to change its advice. Ministers and the agency have said there are no significant differences between organic and ordinary produce. Researchers grew fruit and vegetables and reared cattle on adjacent organic and nonorganic sites on a 725-acre farm attached to Newcastle University, and at other sites in Europe. They found that levels of antioxidants in milk from organic herds were up to 90% higher than in milk from conventional herds. As well as finding up to 40% more antioxidants in organic vegetables, they also found that organic tomatoes from Greece had significantly higher levels of antioxidants, including flavo-noids thought to reduce coronary heart disease. Leifert said the government was wrong about there being no difference between organic and conventional produce. There is enough evidence now that the level of good things is higher in organics, he said. Letter from the Food Standards Agency http://extras.timesonline.co.uk/organicfood1.pdf The Food Standards Agency's current stance on organic food http://extras.timesonline.co.uk/organicfood2.pdf http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/health/article2753546.ece From The Sunday Times October 28, 2007 Eat your words, all who scoff at organic food Jon Ungoed-Thomas ITS unassuming location belies its importance. Sandwiched between Hadrian's Wall and the busy A69 road to Newcastle upon Tyne is a 725-acre farm that will help to determine the nation's future eating habits. In a unique experiment, its rolling pastures and ploughed fields have been split into two so that conventional and organic produce can be grown side by side. It has enabled scientists to test the alternative foods rigorously and answer a question that most shoppers ask themselves on a regular basis: is buying organic better for you? Findings from the £12m European Union-funded project, the biggest of its kind and the first to investigate systematically the physiology of produce from the different farming techniques, will be peer reviewed and published over the next 12 months. But already one conclusion is clear: organically produced crops and dairy milk usually contain more beneficial compounds - such as vitamins and antioxidants believed to help to combat disease. Related Links Official: organic really is better We have a general trend in the data that says there are more good things in organic food, said Professor Carlo Leifert, leader of the QualityLowInput-Food (QLIF) project. We are now trying to identify the agricultural practices that are responsible for this. The research has shown up to 40% more beneficial compounds in vegetable crops and up to 90% more in milk. It has also found high levels of minerals such as iron and zinc in organic produce. The findings from the farm, which is part of Newcastle University, appear to conflict with the official government advice that buying organic food is a lifestyle choice and there is no clear evidence that it is more nutritious than other food. The new research comes after a seven-year stand-off between the Food Standards Agency (FSA) and the organic sector over the nutritional benefits of organic food. Lord Krebs, the FSA's first chairman, even said that organic
[Biofuel] Interesting Spin
I'm sure glad that I can go straight to the source and get beyond this sort of garbage. http://local.lancasteronline.com/4/211388 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Methanol Suppliers
Hi all, I need a better supply of methanol. My local supplier is charging $5.75/gallon. AND, I have to call ahead so they can re-package it. Can anyone point me to a better source in south central Pennsylvania? Or, I suppose, I'd be willing to have it shipped but, I'd prefer to buy as locally as possible. Thanks, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Allah or Jesus?
On 11/15/06, Jesse Frayne [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip People who are scared and vulnerable are the tools of those who might not be virtuous. Yet there are virtuous religious people. snip Personally, I think this statement covers the discussions very accurately. In general, people are fearful of things they don't understand. Distortions are easily accepted when they help to explain any given situation. And unfortunately, evangelical religions are, by nature, meant to maintain and increase their flocks. Frankly, any cleric that uses fear to keep his or her students in line is absolutely disgusting. However, I'm surprised by the shear number of Christians that are easily duped by the fear mongering. I would think that any knowledgeable, devout Christian would take the courageous example set by Jesus and cast off the scare tactics. Not to single out Christianity but, its the only religion that I know well enough to even consider discussing. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] I need some advice
On 11/6/06, Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The obvious answer is that if you make fuel you will be able to put it in the car to go buy the parts you need to finish the reactor! ;) Yeah, I think I'll just start into making some fuel. I'm going to use these initials trial to heat the house but, that's just as important as finishing the reactor. I probably don't have much of choice either though - some of the containers have been banged around a bit and have developed leaks. I think the oil might have been too hot when place info the containers. Most of the oil looks pretty good, though. Some of it doesn't even look used. A couple of local-ish folks have responded. If any of you have a good resource for methanol, I seem to have misplaced mine. Thanks to all that have responded,Take care,KenLancaster County, PA ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] I need some advice
I have stumbled on about 200 gallons of WVO in the ~5 gallon containers that it came in. That part is great! I'll be picking it up this weekend. Now, the tricky part - in the spring I broke my ankle while skateboarding. That put an immediate halt to my processor development. Its probably 80% completed but, I don't even really remember what I was working on last. Now the even trickier part - my wife is not likely to be too patient with me having 50 - 5 gallon containers in the garage for too long. Now, I have 2 empty 55 gallon drums that I could put about half of it in but, I'm not sure if I want to tie those up for that purpose. Ok, so the question here is, do I work on the reactor to process the oil or do I just get down to the knitty gritty and make biodiesel? I could use the 5 gallon containers that the oil is in and just use the simple bucket method to get the job done. I suppose I feel a bit more confident in the simple method (probably because I have less waste if something goes wrong). I guess that I should add that at this point, I've only ever done test batches. I haven't done anymore that a gallon at a time. What do you think? I hope everyone is doing well!Take care,KenLancaster County, PA ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Ethanol and my car.
Hi all, Been a while since I posted (I broke my ankle skateboarding and I had been sidelined for a while). I've been playing catch-up ever since. Any way, since I've been back on my feet I've been working on my camper (77 VW Bus) to get it ready for winter and keep it from falling to bits. Prior to my injury I had been trying to assemble the parts to put a Rabbit diesel engine in it but, had run into problems finding an affordable engine in decent condition. Recently, I've been working on getting the engine right since I don't have the money to do all the body work that I want to do and today it occurred to me that I now have a very good understanding of the fuel injection system on this vehicle. That got me to thinking that I might have the resources to convert this engine to run ethanol. I found this book in one of Keith's posts: How to Modify Your Car to Run on Alcohol Fuel (Guidelines for Converting Gasoline Engines, with Specific Instructions for Air-Cooled Volkswagens), R. Lippman, 1982. Hmmm, fits my criteria pretty darned well if it covers fuel injection. Anyone have (or had) a copy? Is it worthwhile? It seems to me that there might only be one part that would require replacement (I've replaced all the rubber anyway) but, I've have to take a deeper look. The way I remember it is that an adjustment to the spray pattern and an increase in compression are both good things and that a preheater is helpful during cold months. Can anyone summarize or point me to the changes needed to run ethanol? Any additional help would be most appreciated. Take care, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Atleast someone is willing to make a commitment
From the local paper. http://local.lancasteronline.com/4/22918 New Holland goes biodiesel By Patrick Burns, Intelligencer Journal Staff Intelligencer Journal Published: May 24, 2006 8:20 AM EST LANCASTER COUNTY, PA - Farm equipment maker New Holland announced Tuesday that it is the first U.S. engine manufacturer to fully advocate the use of biodiesel blended fuels in all engines it produces. Joe Jobe, New Holland chief executive, said the company has gone one better than other engine producers in fully adopting a maintenance and technical support program for customers who want to use B20 blends (20 percent biodiesel 80 percent petroleum-based diesel) on all equipment currently produced with New Holland engines. Biodiesel is a renewable fuel produced from oilseed crops -- primarily soybeans in the United States and canola in Canada, and animal fats -- that's blended with conventional diesel to meet specified industry standards. New Holland is the first to specifically say that they approve the use of B20 in their engines, Jobe said. Darryl Brinkmann, chairman of the National Biodiesel Board, said New Holland's backing of biofuel use is consistent with the sentiments of its farming customers. This move by New Holland represents a strong show of support for the soybean farmers who stepped up to the plate years ago to begin the biodiesel program, Brinkman said. New Holland is a brand of CNH Global, a world leader in agricultural, utility and construction equipment. Dennis D. Recker, vice president of New Holland Agricultural Business in North America, said the company's decision came because of crude oil prices. Diesel sold on average for $3 per gallon in Lancaster Tuesday, according to AAA. That's up 28 percent from a year ago and almost double what it was in early 2004. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Atleast someone is willing to make a commitment
On 6/1/06, Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: B20 is a big step I admit, but how about B100? I agree but, one big step is better than lying in the fetal position. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] BETTER MIXING BETTER BIODIESEL LESS ENERGY
What's the ebay item number for the information? chuckle ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Thoughts on the Bush Admninistation
On 4/19/06, Bobby Clark [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The Bush Administration is not trying to kill you. Sounds like a little paranoia. Interesting...They used the death of 3000 Americans in New York as justification to send another 3000 to die in Irag. Not trying to kill who? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Bin Laden citing US polls about withdrawing from Iraq
On 1/20/06, Michael Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: One sentence stood out among the others: The province of Ontario has authorized the use of sharia law in civil arbitrations, if both parties consent. That's pretty scary stuff. I reminds me of towns in the US trying to push religion in science class (i.e. creative design). That was Dover, PA. It recently got shot down and the school board was overthrown in the recent election. Dover is close enough to home that I was pretty interested in how that all turned out. Take care, ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Quick Britelyt Petromax report
Mike, I'm sure this is not an exciting discovery for you but, it is relieving to me. Keep us posted. Thanks, Ken On 12/19/05, Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Finally warmed up enough to try the PetroMax stove again. It flat out would not light on plain BD, even when I heated the ring with a torch. I mixed in some K1, and then a shot of gasoline. Finally got a weak and spluttery flame - not enough to heat even a marshmallow. I dumped out the mix and filled it with new K1. Got a better flame, but still not enough to heat any amount of oil. It still sputtered though settled down somewhat finally. It looks nothing like the cheerful flame in the video. I'm going to call Britelyt today and see what they say. I suspect the problem has to do with pressure - the gauge came broken and I think the stove leaks down. My BD brewing buddy is an old Army hand and knows this type of stove and thought there is something wrong with the stove. -Mike ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Preheating heat source - BriteLyt?
Please, let us know how it does, Mike. Take care, On 12/5/05, Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just got a Britelyt today. Haven't been able to get it to light on BD but I think it may be due to the fuel being too cold. Will report back if I get it going. Ken Dunn wrote: What is everyone using as a heat source for preheating? I'm thinking about buying the BriteLyt mentioned on JtF. I could use it for other purposes as well which would be nice. Anyone test it? Care to comment? Take care, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Preheating heat source - BriteLyt? Petromax
Just selfishly thinking outloud...I wonder if it would be possible to pre-preheat it with a Sterno. On 12/6/05, Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What was the temperature outside? I tried that with a torch and got a few sputters but no flame. Is kerosene the most logical agent to cut the BD with? Joe Street wrote: Hi Mike For what it's worth I tried running my multifuel backpacking stove on BD. I had to warm the preheater / vaporizer tube with a propane torch to get it hot enough to vaporize the BD. Once lit though it had a beautiful and stable blue flame and judging by boil time comparisons roughly the same heat as kerosene. Esters have a high flash point and need a lot of heat to use in a stove that is designed to supply vapor to the jet. Joe Mike Weaver wrote: So far all attempts to light it have failed. It's 30 degrees here and that may have something to do with it. I cut the BD w/ a good shot of Dino diesel and still no go. I got the preheater going but no flame on the ring. I brought it inside overnight to warm up and will try it again. If it doesn't go I'll mix in some kerosene. The booklet says you have to preheat for 3 1/2 mins sometimes to get BD lit. It came smelling of kerosene to I expect the factory lit it and tested it. FWIW the pressure gauge is bad but it does hold pressure. I had hoped to use it to heat oil so the the bd process was all fueled by BD. I also looked at some of the camping stoves but they are very expensive and designed to be as light weight as possible. The guy at the camping store said the thinner distillates works best. We'll see, Mike Ken Dunn wrote: Please, let us know how it does, Mike. Take care, On 12/5/05, Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just got a Britelyt today. Haven't been able to get it to light on BD but I think it may be due to the fuel being too cold. Will report back if I get it going. Ken Dunn wrote: What is everyone using as a heat source for preheating? I'm thinking about buying the BriteLyt mentioned on JtF. I could use it for other purposes as well which would be nice. Anyone test it? Care to comment? Take care, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search
Re: [Biofuel] Preheating heat source - BriteLyt? Petromax
Well that's bummer-style news there, Joe. I was hoping to use a multi-fuel stove on the trail as well as for preheating my biodiesel process. Of course, I suppose it would still be an improvement to use the stove for preheating wvo to make biodiesel even with the propane used from the torch to preheat the stove. Better than electricity or another petro based liquid fuel through out the whole process. Have you made any attempts to change the jet size on the stove? Would that be a worthwhile endeavor? How about adding acetone? (just kidding). On 12/6/06, Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I use jellied alcohol (like sterno but runny) for pre heating my stove on the trail. It wasn't enough heat for the biodiesel though. Even with kerosene it takes a prolonged period of preheat with sterno to light the stove. If you turn the fuel valve on prematurely you get liquid coming out the jet rather than vapor and then the liquid just burns with an awful sooty yellow flame. With naptha (white gas) starting is a snap. With kerosene it takes careful preparation, a wind screen and enough sterno. With BD it takes a torch! Joe Ken Dunn wrote: Just selfishly thinking outloud...I wonder if it would be possible to pre-preheat it with a Sterno. On 12/6/05, Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What was the temperature outside? I tried that with a torch and got a few sputters but no flame. Is kerosene the most logical agent to cut the BD with? Joe Street wrote: Hi Mike For what it's worth I tried running my multifuel backpacking stove on BD. I had to warm the preheater / vaporizer tube with a propane torch to get it hot enough to vaporize the BD. Once lit though it had a beautiful and stable blue flame and judging by boil time comparisons roughly the same heat as kerosene. Esters have a high flash point and need a lot of heat to use in a stove that is designed to supply vapor to the jet. Joe Mike Weaver wrote: So far all attempts to light it have failed. It's 30 degrees here and that may have something to do with it. I cut the BD w/ a good shot of Dino diesel and still no go. I got the preheater going but no flame on the ring. I brought it inside overnight to warm up and will try it again. If it doesn't go I'll mix in some kerosene. The booklet says you have to preheat for 3 1/2 mins sometimes to get BD lit. It came smelling of kerosene to I expect the factory lit it and tested it. FWIW the pressure gauge is bad but it does hold pressure. I had hoped to use it to heat oil so the the bd process was all fueled by BD. I also looked at some of the camping stoves but they are very expensive and designed to be as light weight as possible. The guy at the camping store said the thinner distillates works best. We'll see, Mike Ken Dunn wrote: Please, let us know how it does, Mike. Take care, On 12/5/05, Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just got a Britelyt today. Haven't been able to get it to light on BD but I think it may be due to the fuel being too cold. Will report back if I get it going. Ken Dunn wrote: What is everyone using as a heat source for preheating? I'm thinking about buying the BriteLyt mentioned on JtF. I could use it for other purposes as well which would be nice. Anyone test it? Care to comment? Take care, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
On 11/30/05, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Greetings Ken That was a real pleasure to read, thankyou. You're quite welcome. Your food shed, that's great! Footprints and food sheds. I wish I had coined the term but, my best buddy uses the phrase regularly and I'm pretty sure that he stole it from one or another writer. A few months back I stumbled across the article below in the archives. Looks like Doug Woodward first posted it. I found it to be very interesting and figure that it might be a good time for it to get another look. Based solely on this article I really don't see anything that precludes animal free organic farming from being sustainable. It appears to point to both organic farming with and without animals as being sustainable. In my opinion, it clearly shows advantages of organic farming both with or without animals. But you all can be the judge of that. The Institute of Science in Society: Science Society Sustainability http://www.i-sis.org.uk General Enquiries [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website/Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] ISIS Director [EMAIL PROTECTED] This article can be found on the I-SIS website at http://www.i-sis.org.uk/OBCA.php ISIS Press Release 12/09/05 Organic Agriculture Enters Mainstream ** Organic Yields on Par with Conventional and Ahead During Drought Years But by far the greatest gains are due to savings on damages to public health and the environment estimated at more than US$59 billion a year Dr. Mae-Wan Ho puts the nail on the coffin on industrial agriculture A fully referenced version of this article is posted on ISIS members' website http://www.i-sis.org.uk/full/OBCAFull.php. Details here http://www.i-sis.org.uk/membership.php Myths die hard Scientists who should know better - if only they had kept up with the literature - continue to tell the world that organic agriculture invariably means lower yields, especially compared to industrial high input agriculture, even when this has long been proven false (see for example, Organic agriculture fights back SiS 16 [1]; http://www.i-sis.org.uk/isisnews/sis16.php Organic production works, SiS 25 [2]). http://www.i-sis.org.uk/isisnews/sis25.php Researchers led by David Pimenthal, ecologist and agricultural scientist at Cornell University, New York, have now reviewed data from long-term field investigations and confirmed that organic yields are no different from conventional under normal growing conditions, but that they are far ahead during drought years [3]. The reasons are well known: organic soils have greater capacity to retain water as well as nutrients such as nitrogen. Organic soils are also more efficient carbon sinks, and organic management saves on fossil fuel, both of which are important for mitigating global warming. But by far the greatest gains are in savings on externalised costs associated with conventional industrial farming, which are estimated to exceed 25 percent of the total market value of United States' agricultural output. Long-term field trials at Rodale Institute From 1981 through 2002, field investigations were conducted at Rodale Institute in Kutztown, Pennsylvania on 6.1 ha. Three different cropping systems: conventional, animal manure and legume-based organic, and legume-based organic. Plots (18 x 92 m) were split into three (6 x 92 m) subplots, which are large enough for farm-scale equipment to be used for operations and harvesting. The main plots were separated with a 1.5 m grass strip to minimize cross movement of soil, fertilizers, and pesticides. Each of the three cropping systems was replicated eight times. The conventional system based on synthetic fertilizer and herbicide use, represented a typical cash-grain 5-year crop rotation (corn, corn, soybeans, corn, soybeans) that reflects commercial conventional operations in the region and throughout the Midwest. According to USDA 2003 data, there are more than 40 million ha in this production system in North America. Crop residues were left on the surface of the land to conserve soil and water; but no cover crops were used during the non-growing season. The organic animal-based cropping represented a typical livestock operation in which grain crops were grown for animal feed, not cash sale. This rotation was more complex: corn, soybeans, corn silage, wheat, and red clover-alfalfa hay, as well as a rye cover crop before corn silage and soybeans. Aged cattle manure served as the nitrogen source and applied at 5.6 tonnes per ha (dry), 2 years out of every 5 immediately before ploughing the soil for corn. Additional nitrogen was supplied by the plough-down of legume-hay crops. The total nitrogen applied per ha was about 40 kilograms per year or 198 kg per ha for any given year with a corn crop. Weed control relied on mechanical cultivation, weed-suppressing crop rotations, and relay cropping, in which one crop acted as living
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
On 11/30/05, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Greetings Ken That was a real pleasure to read, thankyou. You're quite welcome. Your food shed, that's great! Footprints and food sheds. I wish I had coined the term but, my best buddy uses the phrase regularly and I'm pretty sure that he stole it from one or another writer. A few months back I stumbled across the article below in the archives. Looks like Doug Woodward first posted it. I found it to be very interesting and figure that it might be a good time for it to get another look. Based solely on this article I really don't see anything that precludes animal free organic farming from being sustainable. It appears to point to both organic farming with and without animals as being sustainable. In my opinion, it clearly shows advantages of organic farming both with or without animals. But you all can be the judge of that. The Institute of Science in Society: Science Society Sustainability http://www.i-sis.org.uk General Enquiries [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website/Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] ISIS Director [EMAIL PROTECTED] This article can be found on the I-SIS website at http://www.i-sis.org.uk/OBCA.php ISIS Press Release 12/09/05 Organic Agriculture Enters Mainstream ** Organic Yields on Par with Conventional and Ahead During Drought Years But by far the greatest gains are due to savings on damages to public health and the environment estimated at more than US$59 billion a year Dr. Mae-Wan Ho puts the nail on the coffin on industrial agriculture A fully referenced version of this article is posted on ISIS members' website http://www.i-sis.org.uk/full/OBCAFull.php. Details here http://www.i-sis.org.uk/membership.php Myths die hard Scientists who should know better - if only they had kept up with the literature - continue to tell the world that organic agriculture invariably means lower yields, especially compared to industrial high input agriculture, even when this has long been proven false (see for example, Organic agriculture fights back SiS 16 [1]; http://www.i-sis.org.uk/isisnews/sis16.php Organic production works, SiS 25 [2]). http://www.i-sis.org.uk/isisnews/sis25.php Researchers led by David Pimenthal, ecologist and agricultural scientist at Cornell University, New York, have now reviewed data from long-term field investigations and confirmed that organic yields are no different from conventional under normal growing conditions, but that they are far ahead during drought years [3]. The reasons are well known: organic soils have greater capacity to retain water as well as nutrients such as nitrogen. Organic soils are also more efficient carbon sinks, and organic management saves on fossil fuel, both of which are important for mitigating global warming. But by far the greatest gains are in savings on externalised costs associated with conventional industrial farming, which are estimated to exceed 25 percent of the total market value of United States' agricultural output. Long-term field trials at Rodale Institute From 1981 through 2002, field investigations were conducted at Rodale Institute in Kutztown, Pennsylvania on 6.1 ha. Three different cropping systems: conventional, animal manure and legume-based organic, and legume-based organic. Plots (18 x 92 m) were split into three (6 x 92 m) subplots, which are large enough for farm-scale equipment to be used for operations and harvesting. The main plots were separated with a 1.5 m grass strip to minimize cross movement of soil, fertilizers, and pesticides. Each of the three cropping systems was replicated eight times. The conventional system based on synthetic fertilizer and herbicide use, represented a typical cash-grain 5-year crop rotation (corn, corn, soybeans, corn, soybeans) that reflects commercial conventional operations in the region and throughout the Midwest. According to USDA 2003 data, there are more than 40 million ha in this production system in North America. Crop residues were left on the surface of the land to conserve soil and water; but no cover crops were used during the non-growing season. The organic animal-based cropping represented a typical livestock operation in which grain crops were grown for animal feed, not cash sale. This rotation was more complex: corn, soybeans, corn silage, wheat, and red clover-alfalfa hay, as well as a rye cover crop before corn silage and soybeans. Aged cattle manure served as the nitrogen source and applied at 5.6 tonnes per ha (dry), 2 years out of every 5 immediately before ploughing the soil for corn. Additional nitrogen was supplied by the plough-down of legume-hay crops. The total nitrogen applied per ha was about 40 kilograms per year or 198 kg per ha for any given year with a corn crop. Weed control relied on mechanical cultivation, weed-suppressing crop rotations, and relay cropping, in which one crop acted as living
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
On 11/28/05, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Not all vegetarians avoid meat because of animal rights issues. Why do they avoid it then? Best Keith Are you itchin' for a fight? ;^) Well, I trust that based on our long discussion a few months ago, that you know why I avoided meat for so many years. But, I'll bite anyway...there are those that feel that the land used to grow feed for livestock could be better used to grow feed for humans. There are also those that believe that there is an excessive burden placed on the environment by the poor farming practices followed by the large corporate farms that provide most of the animal-based food products in some portions of the world. Keith, before this turns into a heated debate, lets both agree that we both understand that properly grazing animals helps to amend soil without harming watersheds. Which really does answer both of the reasons mentioned above for avoiding meat. I had avoided meats and dairies for many, many years because of environmental damage done be agro-business. Prior to the Pimentel is at it again thread back in July, I followed an almost vegan diet. In the course of that discussion and over the next 6 weeks or so, I did some serious searching and found many local farmers that are raising organic, grassfed meats and organic pastured poultry. My wife and I had switched to these local farms over the grocery store for the meats that our kids wished to eat. After some additional food-mile considerations, I have begun eating locally grown, organic, grassfed meats and dairy to augment the locally grown, organic vegetables that I was always able to find seasonally. With the exception of rice and the occasional exotic treat, we have reduced our food shed to a six mile radius. Once I find a source of local barley, we'll kick the rice habit also. But, not everyone is so lucky as I am to have these resources available. If I didn't have these farms close by, I would be happy to return to a diet of based solely on locally grown plant foods. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
On 11/27/05, dermot [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is a common argument put forward against vegetarianism. This argument says that if it is shown sometime in the future that plants feel pain then vegetarians will have to give up eating plants. Not all vegetarians avoid meat because of animal rights issues. Take care, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Oil Mixing Valve
I'm trying to find a mixing valve to run inline between to storage tanks: one for petro heating oil and one for bioheating oil. The purpose would be to allow for a controlled setting that I can test burning bioheating oil without committing my primary storage tank to the test. I could also run ball valves inline to completely stop the flow of one or the other. I was thinking that a water mixing valve might work but, aren't those actuated by the temps of the input water? I'm not sure that the flow rate would be sufficient either. I'm sure there has to be something available but, I just must not know the right words to search on. Take care, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Oil Mixing Valve
Buck said: thisss buck,, if u addd a T betweenn your exicssting valv and the burner, u can then add your bio tank with itss vlavle in the serviceee, use either tnank themn, or shut them both off, or addd T and vavlee and union,, then bio tank with its dedidcated vavlve, then u can remove the bio tank ro chancge it without stioping the use of regualrr heating jfuell,,, routine is this,,, the T,, then valve, then union,, thenvalve,, then biotank,,, all this added to the line after uur alreaddy exixting vavlvve between valve and burner buck, That's easy enough. I always look to the overly complicated answer first. I WOULD like to be able to try to vary the ratio of bio/petro oil. I suppose your solution offers that possibility if I vary how far I open each of the valves. One thing that I just now realized is that I'd need to use one-way valves to prevent one tank filling the other to stabilize the levels. Which also leaves me realizing that the tank with the higher level will naturally produce more pressure (just something that I have to regulate). Take care, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] If this isn't aggression...
On 10/31/05, Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Now if you and all the others like you (and I know there must be a lot of them) could just get together and grab the mic and shout it to the rest who are basically sleeping something might really happen. If only it were that easy, Joe. There are lots of us out there willing to shout it out but, those sleeping have their earplugs in and the sleep shades on. Even after this latest episode with Libby, Rove and Cheney, the sleepers still aren't willing to wake up. They just wish to compare this situation to a former president's (name purposely omitted) missteps. I'm not saying that we shouldn't keep trying but, I wouldn't want others to expect that all that is required it to start discussing the issues and things will change. Many people become discouraged when they realize the extent of the blind faith. This is especially true when surrounded by sheeple with little reinforcement. It really is a long uphill battle. Perseverance is essential. I wish that this wasn't such a bleak message. I try to keep an upbeat outlook. Take care, Ken Doesn't it sound like I might be a bit frustrated? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Still looking for a cheap TEFC motor
Hmm, I couldn't find that item earlier. I suppose that a router speed control is a different animal than a router speed controller. What a difference two letters make! Depending how much trouble I have making and balancing an impeller that performs the proper mixing, I may just track one of these down. Take care, On 10/28/05, Derick Giorchino [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have used mine with a 1/2 drill, clear water pump and the winch motor that I have attached a hydraulic pump for oil transfer with no signs of overheating. Harbor freight item # 43060 ovga router speed control $24.99 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ken Dunn Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2005 6:28 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Still looking for a cheap TEFC motor On 10/26/05, Derick Giorchino [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There is a router speed controller in harbor freight when it on sale that is most of the time it is inexpensive and works quite well It doesn't look like Harbor Freight is offer that item right now. I see that some other sites are offering something called a router speed controller. No issue with the motor overheating using the speed controller? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] diesennn engine to a gasolians car,
Hi Buck, Out of curiosity, where are you from? What are your experiences with automobiles? Take care, Ken On 10/29/05, Buck Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: sorrry i dledeted the messagee beafore i realized i wanted to post sorry,,, for the personn wanting toput a dieslel enginee in a galsoline auto,, u must clean the gasoline tank to a farethee well and have it sealedd inside with diesel ressistant sealant the gas gas tank are zinc plated galvanized,, the ideisel and tiny amaounts of water make zinc saltsss whichh is carrieadn into the fuel injectaion system and will destraoyu it,buck _ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Also starting out
On 10/29/05, Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Many US citizens would not think twice about skipping the permit, if they had some reason to believe they wouldn't get caught. I have to say that here as of late, you are correct about that...unfortunately. Overall, it does us no benefit, though. Firstly, we promote ourselves to be THE example and if we mean it, we should - no reason to hide our greatness. Second, if getting the proper permits to be upstanding citizens of the Earth is that much trouble, we should stand up for the right things. Take care, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] diesennn engine to a gasolians car,
Hey Buck, I'm very sorry to hear about your stroke. It sounds like you must have been pretty active. Don't give up though. That's a lot of experience that you have behind you. I must say that frankly, I don't know you but I'm proud of your perseverance still the same. How do you hold up physically? I'm 35. not that it matters. I guess that it is nice to be able to relate, though. My older brother had a Willys (1947, I LOVED that Jeep) that our older cousin had put a 283 Chevy small block into. That thing wouldn't do more the 65mph but, it would climb a tree. Man, it was fun. We used to go everwhere in that thing. Sometimes, I had to lean out and help out those old vacuum assist wipers. No heat, it sucked but, we just loved it. Freedom will definitely have an affect on you. What part of California are you in? I have to admint that I really didn't have ANY desire to go to California until I went. I want to go back now...but, I can't tell anyone because I made such a big stink for so long. Take care, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] diesennn engine to a gasolians car,
On 10/29/05, Gary Moro [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just like Ken, I don't know you either Buck. However reading your message has put a big smile on my face with admiration for your life full of experience and your determination to push on regardless. Thanks for putting the spark back in my day. More power to you mate - greets from down under the equator. :-) Regz, Gary I had intended for the discussion to be private. I'm sorry Buck. On the upside though, at least you were an inspiration to more than just myself. Take care, ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Coalescing Filter for de-watering
Has anyone tried using a coalescing filter to de-water feedstock? A local WVO user that I stumbled across is using one to de-water his oil. I've seen claims of coalescing filters removing water down to 10ppm. That could potentially be a significant energy savings. From the operational diagrams that I've seen, I can see no reason why I couldn't by a replacement element and build a very simple canister around it. Take care, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Still looking for a cheap TEFC motor
On 10/26/05, Derick Giorchino [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There is a router speed controller in harbor freight when it on sale that is most of the time it is inexpensive and works quite well It doesn't look like Harbor Freight is offer that item right now. I see that some other sites are offering something called a router speed controller. No issue with the motor overheating using the speed controller? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Still looking for a cheap TEFC motor
Keith said: Frankly, Ken, I'm not that interested in whether it could or not. Improvise, sure, go ahead, best of good luck and all, but motors are common enough aren't they? Why not just use a motor? Well, while motors are common enough buying the motor off the shelf instead of the pump will cost me atleast twice as much. On the other hand if you get it to work that's great. Whatever, I can't see why you think I might want to bet on it. You asked if it's TEFC, I told you it is and pointed you to some information on its pumping limits, and so? Absolutely! I don't want to bet on it. That's why I'm asking questions. I'm trying to raise a family and do the right things. $50 is not much on the grand scale but $50 here or there is all together different. And, as I've mentioned in the past, everything that I'm doing, I want to be able help others with. That pump at Harbor Freight is something that seems readily available at an affordable price. The TEFC motor (again, off the shelf) is not quite as affordable. I'm here to tell you, though, if I can save myself, a friend or someone else who may be following the thread 50 bucks, I'm gonna do it. In as globally friendly manner as possible, of course. I'll more than likely buy the motor that I found but, test the improvised motor taken from the pump, when I can afford it, later. Take care, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Still looking for a cheap TEFC motor
Keith said: I think free motors should be common enough too, lots of things you can salvage a motor from, some might be TEFC. What gets junked that uses TEFC motors but it's not usually the motor failing that gets it junked? I've been considering the exact same question. I haven't come up with the answer yet though. Let me know if you think of something, I'll do the same. Take care, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Still looking for a cheap TEFC motor
I was looking back through to archives tonight to see if I could maybe stumble across a source for cheap TEFC motors and I found one of the many references to the clear water pumps available through Harbor Freight and Northern Tool and such. Upon checking out Harbor Freight, I noticed that they are selling a 1 inch clear water pump for $29.99USD. Here is the link: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=1479 Looking at the image provided, I might assume that the motor matched up to the pump is a TEFC motor. I wonder if someone could provide some assistance. Is it in fact a TEFC motor? What sort of HP are we talking about? Could I disassemble the pump and use the motor to drive my planned stir biodiesel process? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Still looking for a cheap TEFC motor
1/4 horse should be fine. I wonder if they happen to be capacitor start motors. I'm not certain that cap start is a necessity but, it couldn't hurt. I believe that one hell of a vortex is just what the doctor ordered...maybe I misunderstand though. Thanks for your comments, On 10/26/05, Derick Giorchino [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have had my pump apart, brass or bronze impeller the motor seems to be sealed and has an external cooling fan. I think it is a 1/4 hp motor. As for using it to spin a mixer I think it maybe a lot to ask inrush could do some harm until the oil gets going and the r.p.m. would give you one hell of a vortex. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ken Dunn Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2005 8:42 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] Still looking for a cheap TEFC motor I was looking back through to archives tonight to see if I could maybe stumble across a source for cheap TEFC motors and I found one of the many references to the clear water pumps available through Harbor Freight and Northern Tool and such. Upon checking out Harbor Freight, I noticed that they are selling a 1 inch clear water pump for $29.99USD. Here is the link: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=1479 Looking at the image provided, I might assume that the motor matched up to the pump is a TEFC motor. I wonder if someone could provide some assistance. Is it in fact a TEFC motor? What sort of HP are we talking about? Could I disassemble the pump and use the motor to drive my planned stir biodiesel process? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Still looking for a cheap TEFC motor
Kurt, Totally Enclosed Fan Cooled - TEFC. If you follow link on my original post, the pump displayed has a motor attached to looks generally like a TEFC motor. I don't know that it is though. The nice thing about a TEFC motor is that the windings of the motor are enclosed. That helps to REDUCE the possibility of problems due to sparks. Considerig that I'm building my processor in the garage (which is under part of my house), I want to take every realistic precaution. Furthermore, we do our homebrew community harm by not being responsible. Take care, On 10/25/05, Kurt Nolte [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm going to just admit right now that I have no clue what a TEFC motor is, but... I do have an assortment of various old tool and appliance motors here at the house that I could probably come up with a way to part with. Would one of those work? -Kurt On 10/25/05, Ken Dunn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was looking back through to archives tonight to see if I could maybe stumble across a source for cheap TEFC motors and I found one of the many references to the clear water pumps available through Harbor Freight and Northern Tool and such. Upon checking out Harbor Freight, I noticed that they are selling a 1 inch clear water pump for $29.99USD. Here is the link: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=1479 Looking at the image provided, I might assume that the motor matched up to the pump is a TEFC motor. I wonder if someone could provide some assistance. Is it in fact a TEFC motor? What sort of HP are we talking about? Could I disassemble the pump and use the motor to drive my planned stir biodiesel process? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Still looking for a cheap TEFC motor
I had a moment of clarity and called a local electric motor repair shop. It would seem that they might have something that someone decided not to pay to bill for. It would also seem that they might be willing to move it cheap to recoup expenses. Lo and behold, they have a 1/2 hp TEFC motor with a weak low speed (1200 +- RPM) but a strong high speed (1720+- RPM). The price is good, the best I've found. Is this thing going to be total overkill for a 55 gallon stir processor, though? Take care, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Still looking for a cheap TEFC motor
On 10/26/05, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Totally Enclosed Fan Cooled - TEFC. If you follow link on my original post, the pump displayed has a motor attached to looks generally like a TEFC motor. I don't know that it is though. Yes it is. More info here: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor10.html#pumpcap Journey to Forever 90-litre processor Keith, Care to wager on whether the pump motor could be converted for use in my stir process? Take care, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Fwd: Vegetable oil for machining coolant
Forget about the libricant, I want to know how to build one! I can only think of a few simple projects for this thing off-hand but, I could definitely come up with a few more. Take care, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] TEFC Electric Motor Sizing
I should have added, they are capacitor start motors. On 10/16/05, Ken Dunn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've done some research since yesterday, it appears that there aren't many TEFC motors below 1/4 hp - not affordable ones anyway. I found a 1/4 hp Grizzly TEFC motors on Amazon.com and you can also order them direct through Grizzly.com. Its $65 new through both. Seems like Grizzly designs or sources them for woodworking applications but, far as I can tell TEFC is TEFC. Take care, Ken On 10/15/05, francisco j burgos [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Mr. Dunn: certainly you are not the only one that can make good use of such tables or calculations. Hope some body can share info... Yours truly, Mr. F.J. Burgos - Original Message - From: Ken Dunn [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2005 2:21 PM Subject: [Biofuel] TEFC Electric Motor Sizing Hi all, Still gathering my parts for my processor. I found a 1 inch clear water pump that I'm going to use only for transferring the oil. I don't know if anyone has a Habitat for Humanity store near them but, they always have a bunch of motors and pumps at the one near me. Unfortunately, I can't find any used TEFC motors. I've resigned to buying a new TEFC motor for my stir processor. I'm going to be using a 55 gallon drum as my reactor. Looking at some of Todd Swearingen's diagrams and others, I think I should be able to get away with a 1/4 HP motor. A 1/3 HP motor is available locally but, I don't want to waste any energy or money. Anyone have any guidelines on motor sizes based on processing capacity? Take care, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] TEFC Electric Motor Sizing
I've done some research since yesterday, it appears that there aren't many TEFC motors below 1/4 hp - not affordable ones anyway. I found a 1/4 hp Grizzly TEFC motors on Amazon.com and you can also order them direct through Grizzly.com. Its $65 new through both. Seems like Grizzly designs or sources them for woodworking applications but, far as I can tell TEFC is TEFC. Take care, Ken On 10/15/05, francisco j burgos [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Mr. Dunn: certainly you are not the only one that can make good use of such tables or calculations. Hope some body can share info... Yours truly, Mr. F.J. Burgos - Original Message - From: Ken Dunn [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2005 2:21 PM Subject: [Biofuel] TEFC Electric Motor Sizing Hi all, Still gathering my parts for my processor. I found a 1 inch clear water pump that I'm going to use only for transferring the oil. I don't know if anyone has a Habitat for Humanity store near them but, they always have a bunch of motors and pumps at the one near me. Unfortunately, I can't find any used TEFC motors. I've resigned to buying a new TEFC motor for my stir processor. I'm going to be using a 55 gallon drum as my reactor. Looking at some of Todd Swearingen's diagrams and others, I think I should be able to get away with a 1/4 HP motor. A 1/3 HP motor is available locally but, I don't want to waste any energy or money. Anyone have any guidelines on motor sizes based on processing capacity? Take care, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Suggestions for a homemade lid
So, I have this stainless steel container that's probably in the 10-15 gallon range. Seems a shame to not make some use of it except that I didn't get a lid with it and my pal doesn't it either. The inner diameter is 15 inches. The outer diameter is 15 9/16 and the height is 25 1/2 inches. I was planning to use it for a stock methoxide solution but, if I can't come up with a lid I'll have to find a less hazardous use for it. Maybe there is a better use for it anyway...I'd still like a lid. Anyone have any ideas how to create a simple lid without too much wasted energy? Take care, Ken PS: I really busted my hump today in the gardens. We found 5 hostas (one of which was HUGE) on our local FreeCycle. Lots of work digging those holes. I also moved a bunch of other perennials and rearranged the vegetable garden to build my mini hoop house for late tomatoes and early spring crops. I am so tired I could fall asleep typing. There is almost nothing more rewarding, though! I can't wait for the extra charge that I'll have tomorrow. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Suggestions for a homemade lid
No, its definitely Stainless. I have worked for years with both. I tight lid is what I'm lookng for. I can certainly make a air tight lid. I just don't want to over do it. Take care, Ken On 10/16/05, JJJN [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Ken, No doubt you are sure it is SS and not aluminum. If your not sure you will want to be sure (aluminum is a no no). I would use it for your reactor and fashion a nice lid from plastic. Like Manickh said the alcoholic kind needs to be more than a lid - a tight lid. Best of luck Jim Manick Harris wrote: Hi Ken, Since your solution is probably alcoholic,and you want to minimise evaporationn may I suggest a sturdy PE container with fitting lid. Tha SS could be put to another use. My 2c worth. Manickh */Ken Dunn [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: So, I have this stainless steel container that's probably in the 10-15 gallon range. Seems a shame to not make some use of it except that I didn't get a lid with it and my pal doesn't it either. The inner diameter is 15 inches. The outer diameter is 15 9/16 and the height is 25 1/2 inches. I was planning to use it for a stock methoxide solution but, if I can't come up with a lid I'll have to find a less hazardous use for it. Maybe there is a better use for it anyway...I'd still like a lid. Anyone have any ideas how to create a simple lid without too much wasted energy? Take care, Ken PS: I really busted my hump today in the gardens. We found 5 hostas (one of which was HUGE) on our local FreeCycle. Lots of work digging those holes. I also moved a bunch of other perennials and rearranged the vegetable garden to build my mini hoop house for late tomatoes and early spring crops. I am so tired I could fall asleep typing. There is almost nothing more rewarding, though! I can't wait for the extra charge that I'll have tomorrow. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://pa.yahoo.com/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=36035/*http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Suggestions for a homemade lid
Should have said An air tight lid...: On 10/17/05, Ken Dunn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No, its definitely Stainless. I have worked for years with both. I tight lid is what I'm lookng for. I can certainly make a air tight lid. I just don't want to over do it. Take care, Ken On 10/16/05, JJJN [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Ken, No doubt you are sure it is SS and not aluminum. If your not sure you will want to be sure (aluminum is a no no). I would use it for your reactor and fashion a nice lid from plastic. Like Manickh said the alcoholic kind needs to be more than a lid - a tight lid. Best of luck Jim Manick Harris wrote: Hi Ken, Since your solution is probably alcoholic,and you want to minimise evaporationn may I suggest a sturdy PE container with fitting lid. Tha SS could be put to another use. My 2c worth. Manickh */Ken Dunn [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: So, I have this stainless steel container that's probably in the 10-15 gallon range. Seems a shame to not make some use of it except that I didn't get a lid with it and my pal doesn't it either. The inner diameter is 15 inches. The outer diameter is 15 9/16 and the height is 25 1/2 inches. I was planning to use it for a stock methoxide solution but, if I can't come up with a lid I'll have to find a less hazardous use for it. Maybe there is a better use for it anyway...I'd still like a lid. Anyone have any ideas how to create a simple lid without too much wasted energy? Take care, Ken PS: I really busted my hump today in the gardens. We found 5 hostas (one of which was HUGE) on our local FreeCycle. Lots of work digging those holes. I also moved a bunch of other perennials and rearranged the vegetable garden to build my mini hoop house for late tomatoes and early spring crops. I am so tired I could fall asleep typing. There is almost nothing more rewarding, though! I can't wait for the extra charge that I'll have tomorrow. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://pa.yahoo.com/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=36035/*http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] TEFC Electric Motor Sizing
Hi all, Still gathering my parts for my processor. I found a 1 inch clear water pump that I'm going to use only for transferring the oil. I don't know if anyone has a Habitat for Humanity store near them but, they always have a bunch of motors and pumps at the one near me. Unfortunately, I can't find any used TEFC motors. I've resigned to buying a new TEFC motor for my stir processor. I'm going to be using a 55 gallon drum as my reactor. Looking at some of Todd Swearingen's diagrams and others, I think I should be able to get away with a 1/4 HP motor. A 1/3 HP motor is available locally but, I don't want to waste any energy or money. Anyone have any guidelines on motor sizes based on processing capacity? Take care, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Imagine if we could invent grid tied PV systems
On 10/13/05, Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It is not his fault, he is a mirror of the people who voted for him. The law of smallest (read dumbest) common denominator. This make George a genius among the people who voted for him, more than half of the US population. LOL Not to pick nits over this, Hakan but, just over half of the eligible U.S. population *voted*. Of them 51 or 52% voted for Bush. Far short of the mandate that the Bushites touted but, who's counting? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????
Jim, did you search the archives? search for solar hot water heater We've been discussing this a fair amount lately, several people posted great recommendations and reference website urls. Take care, Ken On 10/11/05, JJJN [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Tom, We are in Eastern Montana, Cold but sunny winters. Would antifreeze work as the fluid? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] 55 Gallon Drum Seal
Sound good, I'll be interested to hear how it works out. On 10/8/05, des [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Similar problem here, though I've processed a couple of batches without the seal. The barrels I got had foodstuffs in them, and the seal was a sort of foam that doesn't hold up in methanol fumes. I'm going to try making a continuous rope of the correct circumference (continuous rope = http://www.bhi.co.uk/hints/rope.htm )and coating it with a silicon rubber. Then lay it into the groove, and when the silicone is nearly solid, set the lid onto the barrel to fit the seal. If it works, I'll let you know. :) doug swanson Ken Dunn wrote: Hi all, I found a source for lots of 55 gallon drums at a low rate however, he doesn't have the seals. Are these available? Anybody know where I could find them. I'm suppose I could make a seal if necessary but, I'd much prefer a real one. I'm not having a lot of luck finding drums with seals. Thanks, Take care, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- All generalizations are false. Including this one. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * This email is constructed entirely with OpenSource Software. No Microsoft databits have been incorporated herein. All existing databits have been constructed from recycled databits. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] 55 Gallon Drum Seal
Hey Keith, I had been looking at the page that you mentioned as an option. I was thinking that I'd prefer to have an actual seal but, I suppose I'll need to replace it eventually anyway...maybe I'll just use your suggestion and stop being so darned persnickety. If I go that route, I have a nearly unlimited source of drums! Take care, Ken On 10/9/05, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There are some details here on putting a silicon seal on a lid without a seal. http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor10.html Journey to Forever 90-litre processor ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] 55 Gallon Drum Seal
Hi all, I found a source for lots of 55 gallon drums at a low rate however, he doesn't have the seals. Are these available? Anybody know where I could find them. I'm suppose I could make a seal if necessary but, I'd much prefer a real one. I'm not having a lot of luck finding drums with seals. Thanks, Take care, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] atkins
On 10/6/05, Chris lloyd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No problem, there was a scientific study done on the Atkins diet in the UK early this year, weight, blood pressure and cholesterol tested every day and food consumption monitored. It seems people on that diet just do not eat as many calories as people eating carbs. They even had the test subjects locked in an air chamber monitoring the amount of waste gas being produced to work out energy lost in gas production and oily stools. But they did not expect the lower cholesterol levels and could not explain how the dropped. They thought that fresh cooked meat was better for you than processed and the oil used in cooking should only be used once and then dumped. Chris. Sounds like this particular study was comparing apples to oranges but, I might be reading something into it. However, it does certainly sounds by your description that the study compared an Atkins diet of fresh meats to an omniverous diet of processed foods. No doubt, a diet of refined carbohydrates is not a good diet. However, locally grown, organic whole grains are invaluable in many peoples' diets. Let's face it, the best diet is exercise. You can eat anything you want in moderation but, it won't help eating one thing or another unless you move your body. A few interesting things: There are fewer calories in 1 gram of carbohydrates than either proteins or fats. Fats contain the highest calory count per gram. Eat too much fat and it will be stored as fat for reserve. Protein is great but, if you eat too much, it will also be converted to fat and reserved. Of course, carbohydrates can also be stored as fat but, considering that they are the first used energy source, the chances of carbs being stored as fat are less. That is, providing that you eat only as much as your body can use or less. Carbohydrates are the first category that your body uses. Next is protein. Then fat. Eat more carbs and what is left for energy? Internal stores of fat. Whatever you eat, buying local, locally grown and organic will benefit everyone! And if you walk or ride your bike to pick it up, even better yet. Take care, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] atkins
Arden, Have you incorporated exercise into your lifestyle? I am on a very high carb diet for several reasons. However, I don't eat ANY refined carbs (white flour or white sugar). I also feel wonderful but, I don't think that it has anything to do with my diet. But, if I miss exercise for a couple of days, I can definitely feel the difference. I can also tell how much better I feel the day after vigorous exercise. Feeling energetic is more about metabolism than food inputs unless you aren't eating enough and your metabolism is jump-started by exercise. In response to your comparison of atkins versus low-fat diets and fullness. There have been many, many studies that indicate that high-fat foods generally have a much lower fullness-factor or satiating affect compared to whole grains/beans. Unless the low-fatters are eating poor quality food such as white bread and iceburg lettuce, there is no reason for them to be walking around hungry. I am very rarely hungry, unless I haven't eaten in a reasonable time. Then again, I tend to eat my fair share of granola and oatmeal both of which are VERY filling. check out your favorite foods at www.nutritiondata.com. It gives you everything you might want to know about a particular food - some things that you may have never thought to ask. On 10/6/05, Arden B. Norder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My good bio-friends, I feel I must speak out in defence of Dr. Atkins. It so obvious, by the tone of the comments here, that very, very few have actually read his book. I have seen a couple of TV probrams where the Atkins diet is put under fire. What they have failed to do in all cases isexplain that there are 4 phases to the Atkins way of life. My wife and I have adopted the Atkins way of life and we have lost 12 and 13 kilos respectively. I have to say - I have never felt so good. We have been busy with our new life style for 3 months now and we are almost to our goal weights and are currently in phase 2. I hvae only 1 kilo to go and then on to phase 3. My colestorol from 9 down to 7.5. Yes that was high and it can be even lower but apparently I have been blessed with the heart and collestorol troubles from my mother and her father and his father. thus, it's genetic. I am under my doctors servaillence. I was not overweight. I am 2 metres, medium build and weighed 94 kgs. I am still 2 metres and weigh now 81 kgs. I have an abundance of energy and honestly speeking - have never felt better. Please, educate yourself before you use your key-board and knock a good thing. Have any of you ever considered what a low-fat diet does to your system?? Yet we accept that as being OK. Hmmm. There was here mention of no scientific proof and/or no references - read the book and you wil see the pages and pages and pages of references. His I, unlike the low-fatters, do not walk around with a hungry feeling all day long, and in a body that tries to store every extra calorie because it thinks it it is starving. READ THE BOOK!!! Let's open our minds. Greetings from the Netherlands Arden ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Still looking
Looking at the archives, it appears that the RC airplane folks use methanol as well. Perhaps you can find some buffs in your area and talk to them also. Take care, Ken On 10/6/05, Chris [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Look up automobile in Yellow Pages, and find the guys that sell performance parts, race car parts, etc. After a few calls, someone will tell you where you can find it. I found a supplier in Cayce SC not 1 mile from my job called Performance Parts. The race car community is rather tight and they know what one another has or can get. Chris K Cayce, SC - Original Message - From: Bobby Clark [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 3:06 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Still looking In upstate South Carolina near Clemson, still looking for a methanol supplier for aroun $5/gallon or less. Anyone know of one? Thanks, Bobby Clark ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Quantifying the Price of Packaging/Sending the Message
When talking to friends, family and others regarding the Earth-friendly practices that we can all include in our lifestyles, I always stumble over quantifying the true price of packaging for consumer goods. Its easy enough to calculate the transportation costs of an avacodo from California to Lancaster County, PA. Its also fairly straight forward to relay the burden on natural resources - the real price we pay. Adding it all up is also easily enough accomplished. But, how do you really calculate the expense of packaging materials? How much petroleum goes into one plastic bag? Of course, the plastic won't break down in any of our lifetimes yet, its not easy to determine the displacement of a resource when you don't know the inputs. For many (Americans anyway) I won't be here in a million years so, who cares?. Then again, there are always the ever increasing landfills to point to. NIMBY does have some power there yet, that approach is only a scare tactic to be exploited and I have no time for that. What portion of a tree is consumed to create a cardboard box that is used just long enough for the DVD player (I almost said VCR :-) ) to make its way from the factory to the store and then the family room only to be mummified in the local dump? How much extra weight does the box add to the truck? How much extra fuel does the extra weight consume? For a while I questioned whether paper really WAS any better than plastic. For a while I used plastic based on the premise that I could recycle the plastic. I've now decided that paper is better than plastic if only for the reason that the paper atleast comes from a natural resource that is sustainable (sort of). But, is paper better than plastic? What if we returned to using plastic made from soy beans like ol' Henry's boys discovered? Would it still be better to use paper over plastic? How much energy is consumed to produce all of these packaging materials? And how much more is consumed to dispose of them? Rant as I may, how do we get the point across to the producers of goods that we want lass packaging? We can buy local all day long but, Sony doesn't have a factory near me. Even if they did, I'd still probably have to take the packaging with me. Take care all, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] solar heat exchanger
On 9/28/05, Tom Scheel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've proposed a system that combines heat exchange and storage, thus giving you efficiency of design. The storage tank and the draindown tank can be the same tank, thus removing a maintainance/failure item (glycol - which likes to leak, is less efficient than water as a heat transfer medium, costs $8/gallon (in the US)). Plus you are saving time as it looks like you are hunting around and experimenting with low percentage ideas (PVC/CPVC = PITA). The proposed system does require a pump (you should be able to use two circulators in series - read your pump sizing charts). As to DHW through excessive piping - I presume you are talking about pressure drop. That is solved by taking your 3/4 supply and running it through three 1/2 loops in your heat exchanger. And you are only adding 100 to 120 feet of run, so the pressure drop should be manageable (even if you kept it a single 3/4 loop in the heat exhanger. Tom, After re-reading your original post and then staring at a slew more diagrams, I have to say that I agree with you. As hard as I might try to avoid it, I am still overcomplicating this. Thanks, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Double wall heat exchange - Solar Hot Water Heater
Kjell, I will certainly give this a try for my own purposes, it seems simple enough. But, I can operate a TIG and have access to one. Unfortunately, a TIG welder and the associated experience are not widely spread. I do want to keep this project as Appropriate as possible. So, I'm trying to find materials that are as readily available as possible. Also, I plan to use propolene glycol so, there is the issue of double walls. I could certainly adapt this idea accordingly. Its really too bad that brazing the plate together wouldn't be sufficient - that would make it an easier DIY. Thanks a bunch, Take care, Ken On 9/27/05, Kjell Löfgren [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ken, to avoid the tube bending business you can use a plate heat exchanger - more compact but if DIY you have to do some welding. Cut two equally sized pieces of *thin* stainless steel plate. Make about two dimples about 2 mm deep on every square 10 cm of the plate with a ball-peen(sp?) hammer (work on a wooden bench!). Weld the two plates together all around the edges with the sides with the raised dimples facing each other. Grind away the weld and cone out openings for the short pieces of pipes where the fluid goes in and out (on opposite corners). The short pipe pieces are welded in place. Carefully pressurize the unit with very low air pressure - less than 0.05 kg/cm2 - and test for leaks with soap water, remember to use clamps or something to hold the plates together or you end up with a pressurized 'football'! Make two or more of these units and submerge in whatever storage tank you use, you can connect them in series or in parallel as long as you avoid air pockets. The size of the plates is as big as needed but keep in mind that these DIY units are not meant to be used with internal pressure! Pressure can maybe be used inside the storage tank but the numbers of dimples have to be increased. Also beware of air pressure in large containers - even a small pressure can add up to large forces and even blow the container! Stainless steel rods for welding and a TIG welding equipment is also needed - a skilled TIG welding buddy will make things easier if you don't have the know-how. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Double wall heat exchange - Solar Hot Water Heater
Mike, the bending is not the problem so much as bending a tube inside a tube without the inner tube flattening out or kinking. Though, the more I think about it, the inner tube, being smaller than the outter tube will be less likely to kink than the outter purely by smaller diameter and tighter bend radius. Moreover, I talked to a fellow this weekend that told me to try tightly wrapping the center tube with a heavy gauge, uninsulated wire then insert it into the outter tube, this will make up some difference in size and help to prevent kinking of the inner tube. I'm going to try this along with simply inserting the smaller tube inside the larger and bending. I had considered tube-in-tube-in-tube and running hot propolene glycol and water, in opposite directions, through it. I'm not sure that I'm still going to pursue that route except for experimentation purposes. Take care, Ken On 9/27/05, Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Maybe I'm losing my mind but I swear I used to have a kit w/ different head and a long bar that I used to bend copper pipe. I remember it as being very cheap (under 100.00 USD) at someplace like Norther Tool or Harbor Freight. Of cource I haven't done any plumbing in over 20 years - maybe the don't make it any more. -Mike Kjell Löfgren wrote: Ken, to avoid the tube bending business you can use a plate heat exchanger - more compact but if DIY you have to do some welding. Cut two equally sized pieces of *thin* stainless steel plate. Make about two dimples about 2 mm deep on every square 10 cm of the plate with a ball-peen(sp?) hammer (work on a wooden bench!). Weld the two plates together all around the edges with the sides with the raised dimples facing each other. Grind away the weld and cone out openings for the short pieces of pipes where the fluid goes in and out (on opposite corners). The short pipe pieces are welded in place. Carefully pressurize the unit with very low air pressure - less than 0.05 kg/cm2 - and test for leaks with soap water, remember to use clamps or something to hold the plates together or you end up with a pressurized 'football'! Make two or more of these units and submerge in whatever storage tank you use, you can connect them in series or in parallel as long as you avoid air pockets. The size of the plates is as big as needed but keep in mind that these DIY units are not meant to be used with internal pressure! Pressure can maybe be used inside the storage tank but the numbers of dimples have to be increased. Also beware of air pressure in large containers - even a small pressure can add up to large forces and even blow the container! Stainless steel rods for welding and a TIG welding equipment is also needed - a skilled TIG welding buddy will make things easier if you don't have the know-how. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Double wall heat exchange - Solar Hot Water Heater
On 9/27/05, Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hmm...what if you centered the smaller tube and held it in place with spacers, wax would work, and then filled it with fine grain sand, then bent it? I'm sure it would, I think someone had already mentioned a similar technique. I think I'd like to stear clear of the sand in case of a major failure. Wax or not, I don't want to be flushing my entire system to get rid of unwanted sand. Keep the ideas coming, Take care, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Double wall heat exchange - Solar Hot Water Heater
On 9/27/05, Kjell Löfgren [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ken, why not use straight tubes (if you have the space), one tube length (20 feet?) in one direction and the next tube length running back? You could put your three (four?) tubes into each other both ways and have a U-bend and some interconnections in the far end. You get all the in- and output in the nearest end of the tube package. This seems like a pretty good idea. 20 feet is much more space than I have to offer but, I could probably figure out a way to contain a tube-in-tube design inside a large diameter pvc pipe (6 ft long or so) capped at both ends and plumbed to create a homemade shell and tube heat exchanger. I'll have to look at the economics of this design. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Double wall heat exchange - Solar Hot Water Heater
Tom, Does a drain down system simplify anything other than the heat exchanger and eliminate the use of glycol? Or course, you're adding the drain down. It almost seems like a wash (there is a pun in there somewhere, I'm sure). I would like to use my solar hot water for space heating as well - either radiant heat or with a liquid to air heat exchanger and blower. Either way, I think I'd prefer a closed loop so that I'm not pumping DHW through excessive piping. Am I missing something else? If the goal is to keep it simple, do two things differently than you are contemplating: 1 - make your heat exchanger by putting multiple loops of coiled copper in a polypropylene tank - at most you will need soldering skill if you want to break up a 3/4 or 1 flow into multiple 1/2 coils (surface area = good). One logical loop for (may be many loops of a smaller pipe diameter) for the load (ie DHW or hydronic heat) and (2 below) 2 - use a drain down open system instead of glycol. This allows you to use water everywhere. A pump (not a circulator) pumps the water up to your rooftop collectors when the system senses available heat (standard, cheap solar differential controls) and gravity drains it down when the system is not in use [this method requires that the panels be above the storage tank and that the pipes exposed to freezing are graded towards the storage tank - usually very easy to do] Note that the PP tank in step one above is the drain down tank and storage tank for your hot water (they can be separated if desired, and a larger tank/multiple tanks will provide additional storage, which is the key to effective solar hydronic installations). So you end up with one (open system) tank full of hot water from the sun, heating your coils of copper, containing the water from your (closed system) DHW. Similar technique (add a logical coil) for the hyrdonic side. Just make sure you don't always preheat your hydronic -sometimes the return water from your heating system will be hotter than your solar storage - you need a control to tell you whether there is heat available for the hyrdonic system (not an issue for preheating DHW - your solar storage temp will be almost always be above your groundwater temp). Tom From: Ken Dunn [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Double wall heat exchange - Solar Hot Water Heater Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 09:53:41 -0400 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Kjell, I will certainly give this a try for my own purposes, it seems simple enough. But, I can operate a TIG and have access to one. Unfortunately, a TIG welder and the associated experience are not widely spread. I do want to keep this project as Appropriate as possible. So, I'm trying to find materials that are as readily available as possible. Also, I plan to use propolene glycol so, there is the issue of double walls. I could certainly adapt this idea accordingly. Its really too bad that brazing the plate together wouldn't be sufficient - that would make it an easier DIY. Thanks a bunch, Take care, Ken On 9/27/05, Kjell Löfgren wrote: Ken, to avoid the tube bending business you can use a plate heat exchanger - more compact but if DIY you have to do some welding. Cut two equally sized pieces of *thin* stainless steel plate. Make about two dimples about 2 mm SNIP Radiance Heating and Plumbing, Inc. (ROC 204149,204150) Tom Scheel 928-380-6294 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Double wall heat exchange - Solar Hot Water Heater
On 9/27/05, Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you are willing to use a pump instead of a circulator (much higher power draw is the problem, if you are off grid), and take some care in sloping pipes and collectors properly, it is a bit simpler. In addition, you avoid the issue of acidification of glycol, common in large closed loop systems that chronically stagnate in the summertime. Is there a way to balance the PH of the glycol to extend the life of it? I knew that there is maintenance. I assumed I would have to periodically flush and replace. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Double wall heat exchange - Solar Hot Water Heater
On 9/27/05, Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ken, If you can use PVC pipe, your efficiency is very low to start with. Normal PVC starts to soften at 60 degree C and carbon reinforced ones at 95 degree C. The surface temperatures in normal copper based solar panels can be a few hundreds of degree C and it is always special soldering in them, otherwise the soldering will melt or degenerate. I would not recommend any plastics, if you cannot get the special ones that NASA uses. Thanks for his piece of information, I was not of heat sensivity of PVC. I thought that it was much more heat resistent. They are quite expensive, so do not forget to ask for a special discount, based on your good looks or intentions. Has my mom been bragging about me again? Thanks again, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Double wall heat exchange - Solar Hot Water Heater
On 9/27/05, Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Recently (this spring I believe) Home Power Magazine had a series of articles with nice diagrams of all the various solar hot water systems, space heating and DHW, batch heating, closed loop, and open loop systems. I'd recommend searching their archives, as these were the easiest to understand explanations that I'd seen in a while. Yikes, Zeke, I can't look at another diagram until I get some work done. I have been reading endlessly, I think I might have seen every article in Home Power, Mother Earth News, SRCC, FSEC, EERE, DOE, Billy Boy Joe Bob's Ever-Expanding-Beer-Bottle system and more. Somethin's gotta get built. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Double wall heat exchange - Solar Hot Water Heater
On 9/27/05, Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You can actually buy C-PVC pipe for hot water piping here. Since the heat exchanger is not going to be operating at over 90C or so, it should work fine, except that it may be very difficult to get 100mm diamter CPVC. Normally anything that large is drain pipe not hot water supply, and will be normal PVC instead.As I understood your idea, you were going to put a few runs of copper pipe back and forth submerged inside the large PVC pipe, right? Yes, that's one of the ideas that I would like to test. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Double wall heat exchange - Solar Hot Water Heater
On 9/27/05, Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It is the surface to the sun that is critical, so running C-PVC inside a a large copper tube could work, but why would we like to do that? Plastic is a very bad heat exchanger anyway, compared o copper. C-PVC is usable up to 95 to 99 degree, depending on type and quality. Hakan, The CPVC would only be used to house the heat exchanger which would be in the basement. All piping to, from and within the collector would still be copper. Besides, I'm still very much in the experimental stage. Thanks for you comments, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Double wall heat exchange - Solar Hot Water Heater
On 9/27/05, David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Isn't the gray plastic electrical conduit C-PVC? Check with your local electrical shop rather than your home depot. Is that safe for carrying drinking though? If so, that's a good lead. I could always run my potable water through the heat exchanger and glycol through the PVC but, I definitely need to know what's healthy and what's not. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Double wall heat exchange - Solar Hot Water Heater
On 9/27/05, Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, in this case, there is not supposed to be any heat transfer through the PVC, so I wouldn't be worried about that. I agree that metal would be better, it you can find some large diameter metal pipe for cheap. What about just putting a coil of copper tubing in a big metal trash can? Certainly not elegant, but it would be cheap, and require just about no manufacturing. Well, while I couldn't care much less about the elegance of the installation, my kids are still young and I'd like to find someone to buy my house when I'm ready to move into a smaller space. Also, as I've mentioned several times, I would like to help others with solutions like solar hot water. And frankly, I live in the U.S. where things are supposed to be both sexy and puritanical simultaneously. A big metal trash can is neither. Furthermore, I would like to continue living in the house with my wife once its all said and done. I'm pretty sure that my wife would be just a bit leary of our drinking water getting anywhere near a trash can. Thanks, ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Double wall heat exchange - Solar Hot Water Heater
On 9/27/05, Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If it is only the housing of 2 heat exchange loops, This is the purpose. I won't be using any plastic-like material to exchange heat. Sorry, if I didn't make that completely evident. why not use a steel drum, with copper tubing for the two loops. The cost should be close to the same, if you consider the material efficiency and corresponding amounts. I may end up using a steel drum. I'm try to find the best option to match whatever materials that I can find locally. For what it's worth, there is an issue of space efficiency also. The steel drum might not meet those requirements. Having the greatest number of options at my disposal can only benefit me and anyone that might want to the do same for themselves. Take care, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Double wall heat exchange - Solar Hot Water Heater
Thanks, everyone, for the advice. I went to the PA Energy Fest yesterday and talked to experienced folks there as well. I got some ideas how to incorporate some the concepts mentioned in this thread and also some others. I'm going to experiment on a smaller scale and design my heat exchange accordingly. Thanks again for the input, Take care, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Double wall heat exchange - Solar Hot Water Heater
Hi all, Sorry for the long subject line but, I thought it may aid in archive searches... Is there a home remedy to creating a double wall heat exchange? I have contemplated buying two sizes of copper tubing, inserting the smaller inside the larger and bending the two simultaneously. I could see how the inner tubing might kink or flatten out but, I think that would be unlikely unless I tried to bend too tight of a radius. Is there a better home-builder solution? Perhaps there is an affordable storage tank commercially available that makes building a backyard heat exchange mute anyway.? I'm going to need to come up with a storage tank anyway. I understand the theoretical pros/cons to internal and external heat exchanges but, what are the real-world practical differences? Thanks a bunch, Take care, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Sun Twin space heater
Anyone have any experience with this thing? Does it work as described? My wife is interested in it. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Appleseed methanol recovery
S, Look up hose or hydraulic in your area. If you're in the U.S., you'll likely find a hose house near you. The choices that these places offer are generally great. There are atleast three advantages: you'll probably be supporting the local economy, they have access to the catalogs and reference material that can tell you both what the right stuff is for the job (they normally know or can find pressure/vacuum ratings and resistances also) , and you will probably need them again so, you're more likely to talk to the same Schmoe again. That will save you some time. Plus, its what they do. I've worked in a couple of hydraulic shops and I always got excited to help someone that was doing something different. Good luck, Take care, KenOn 9/23/05, magic [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello all, I have lurked on the list for many months... I am building my ownversion of an appleseed based processor. I am looking at methanolrecovery, and was wondering what I can use (flexible tubing) for the methanol? My thought is to recover the methanol via applying a vacuum to thesystem. Lowes carries high pressure hoses (I think for pressure washers)which I believe would withstand the vacuum, but unsure if the hose itself would react poorly with the methanol. (They don't know what thehose is made of, as they aren't provided that information.) Assistance appreciated. Thanks, S___ Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Flat Panel Solar Hot Water Collector
Hi all, I'm trying to collect materials to build a solar hot water heater. I have a few questions for the initiated. I have been thinking that my most affordable way to go would be to use abandoned sliding glass doors (double pane of course) for my glazing. I can't imagine that there would be any problems with this approach unless they were tinted. Obviously, I would avoid that. Does some smart individual have a recommendation for the copper tubing diameter within the collector? Also, all of the designs that I see incorporate a single serpentine or two manifolds at either end of the collector connected by a series of parellel smaller diameter tubes. I wonder if I could create a hybrid of this design using multiple overlapping serpentines connected by two manifolds. This is hard for me to descibe. I envision the individual tubes making contact somewhere near the bends. My thoughts are: 1. This idea would work quite well 2. There wouldn't be enough heat produced to sufficiently heat the water. 3. This could be just riddled with leaks 4 Both 2 and 3. Does the bulk of the heat produced come from the Sun's radiation or convection within the collector? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Flat Panel Solar Hot Water Collector
On 9/20/05, Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The bulk of the heat is from radiation from the sun. Good! I think that would make the idea of 3 or 4 serpentines in series efficient. The best collectors are actually vaccuum tubes, to reduce convective losses. This doesn't sound like something for the backyard project. They also use a selective surface on the collector plates in order toreduce radiative losses as well. My thought was to braze light gauge copper sheeting to the back of the tubes and then paint the whole shootin' match black. I think that the biggest problem in building a collector will be sealing for leaks, and attaching plates to the tubes with good heattransfer characteristics. Water leaks I assume, not insulation type leaks, right? The best ones I've seen have the platescontinuously welded (or brazed) to the tubes, which can be hard to do on a homebrew collector.If the plates aren't well connectedthermally, they will get hot, but not transfer the heat to the tubevery well.The other option would be to put tubes close enoughtogether that they intercept all the sun and you don't need any plates, but this is obviously more expensive for tubes. Yes, but, if I could reduce the number of collectors, I *could potentially* reduce my overall cost and definitely reduce the weight that I expect my roof to bear. Where are you located? Pennsylvania, USA I have managed to collect about twelve 4'x8'collectors in the last three months, for about $800 total.This is much cheaper than I could have manufactured them, and about 10% thecost of new ones.There are alot of systems that people are justtaking apart (often because the tank rusts out or controls go haywire,but sometimes just because they are reroofing and don't bother to reinstall them -- very rarely to the collectors themselves actually gobad).Not very bright of the current owners to get rid of them jsutwhen gas prices are going through the roof, but it sure helps me Yeah, If I could fall into the kind of situation you have, I'd be a happy camper. Thanks for your response, Take care, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Flat Panel Solar Hot Water Collector
On 9/20/05, Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The best collectors are actually vaccuum tubes, to reduce convective losses. This leads me to believe that creating a lower profile box and reducing dead airspace would be very advantageous. Is that correct? Thanks again, Take care, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Flat Panel Solar Hot Water Collector
On 9/20/05, David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It probably wouldn't make much difference.Windows need an inch or sobetween the panes for best R-value; less is not always better.There'sa point where more wouldn't be better either, and a wide range in between. If there were a way to evacuate even some of the air it would help withboth convective and conductive losses through the air, but evacuatingflat surface collectors is a non-starter.If it were sealed tightly enough, which you probably can't do in a home-build environment, aheavier gas such as argon will increase the R value as well. Does using a sliding glass door solve this problem as best as a backyard builder can expect? I was referring to reducing the dead airspace behind the glazing. Is that what you meant? I intend to thoroughy insulate and seal the box itself but, I have not intention on evacuating it or filling it with a heavy glass. As much as I'd like to get crazy technical with this, I'd like for it to be practical, reliable and reproducable - cheaply. Thanks for your comments, Take care, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Flat Panel Solar Hot Water Collector
On 9/20/05, Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Although alot of the collectors have little vents in the top to let out moisture thatmakes it's way in somehow.Otherwise you get condensation inside theglass in the mornings. What about using silica desiccant gel to stabilize the humidity? Seems safe enough. I seem to remember that there is a desiccant between the panes of many multi-pane windows for the same purpose. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Flat Panel Solar Hot Water Collector
Also, does anyone know what would be considered a good difference in outlet water temperature? For testing purposes, If I'm using water starting at 70F, what should I strive for? I plan to use an indirect system with non-toxic anti-freeze, so, I shouldn't be working with temps as low as 70F anyway but... I found 2 double paned sliding glass door panels today. I can build the boxes and experiment with the 2 side by side until I come up with the best combination but, at what temp should I begin to see diminishing returns? Also, could I expect anti-freeze temps to be able pushed higher than water alone? That's of course, provided that I can attain temperatures that high anyway. Thanks everyone, Take care, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Flat Panel Solar Hot Water Collector
On 9/20/05, Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Check out the SRCC website to see what different collectorsgenerally come in at. Hmmm - http://www.solar-rating.org/ - Great site! The rest is all good too. It all makes sense after I put some thought into it. Thanks, Take care, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Flat Panel Solar Hot Water Collector
On 9/20/05, des [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A scientific approach to this would be to eliminate the variables thatcan be eliminated, and keep records of those that can't be eliminated.For example, measuring ambient temperatures and comparing those to the temperatures in the collector will let you know to some degree what yourinsulation is doing for you.Taking internal temperatures withoutremoving the heat, (not pumping water through your tubes) will let youknow what max temp you might expect, all else being equal.(Length of time the sun is insoling at a beneficial angle, ambient temp, insulationvalue...)Some numbers in the basic setup will then indicate howquickly you might want or need to pump your coolant through the tubes to draw the heat from your collector.Then you might adjust your input for those low angle incident rays bymounting a reflector that will redirect reflected rays back into yourcollector. These all sound like good recommendations. The area of your collection surface will determine the maximum kWhcapacity of your panel. A search using your location and the term insolation will likely return you some very useful data. I've done this. Hopefully, it will be useful later. Right now, it doesn't help me enough - without putting something into practice. Duane Johnson has a huge website dealing with, among other things, solarenergy.Great numbers of links will guide you through any aspect of your endeavors.His site is at http://www.redrok.com/main.htm Holy snikies! That one is going to have to wait until another day. I will need some time to take all of that in. Looks like some very intriguing stuff though. Thanks much, Take care, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Flat Panel Solar Hot Water Collector
On 9/20/05, Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: FSEC (Florida Solar Energy Center) has been around for decades. They'reinto a lot more than just solar and have a cornucopia for a library foranyone who finds themself in their area. Excellent! Thanks, Take care, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Flat Panel Solar Water Heater
Hi all, I'm trying to collect materials to build a solar hot water heater. I have a few questions for the initiated. I have been thinking that my most affordable way to go would be to use abandoned sliding glass doors (double pane of course) for my glazing. I can't imagine that there would be any problems with this approach unless they were tinted. Obviously, I would avoid that. Does some smart individual have a recommendation for the copper tubing diameter within the collector? Also, all of the designs that I see incorporate a single serpentine or two manifolds at either end of the collector connected by a series of parellel smaller diameter tubes. I wonder if I could create a hybrid of this design using multiple overlapping serpentines connected by two manifolds. This is hard for me to descibe. I envision the individual tubes making contact somewhere near the bends. My thoughts are: 1. This idea would work quite well 2. There wouldn't be enough heat produced to sufficiently heat the water. 3. This could be just riddled with leaks 4 Both 2 and 3. Does the bulk of the heat produced come from the Sun's radiation or convection within the collector? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] lite blend?
On 9/16/05, Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Or maybe someone has just found a new way to make money of gullible consumers. Seems to me that this were the case, they would tell you to use more. They make more money that way. Kinda like the directions on the detergent box that tell you that you have to use 5 times as much as you really need. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] BD disinfo?
On 9/13/05, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The question does tend to come up every now and then, but recently amuch higher proportion than usual are inquiring about biodiesel's allegedly short storage life.So many people just browse around the web like gadflies, they don'tkeep much or any record of where they went or what they found there.(Hi, I stumbled on your website...) It seems to point back somewhere, it might be worth knowing just where.Anyway, it seems none of us has stumbled on it, yet. Keith, JtF is an incredible resource. I am reading something or another every couple of days from one of the many topics. Perhaps including some storage expectations and debunking disinformation would be of great service. I know that you're busy but, it may save you some time in the long run. I could have sworn that I saw some sort of guideline on JtF but, I certainly can't find it. I've tried searching through the search engine (biodiesel storage or biodiesel shelf file) and manually searching through the pages that I think would likely contain the info but, I keep coming up dry. I can find information on other websites but, I trust JtF more. Take care, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] BD disinfo?
I can't seem to find it but, I thought that there WAS a recommendation on JtF to store BD for no long than a given time (I won't give the time frame that my memory serves in case I'm wrong) (the same time frame as for storing petro diesel). No?On 9/8/05, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Who is putting about mis- or disinfo that biodiesel has a very shortshelf-life?We keep getting enquiries from people who seem to think so. Does the biodiesel have a shelf life?Or:I read somewhere that biodesil has a short shelf life.And so on and on and on. Somewhere, hm.Any ideas where this BS is coming from? BestKeith AddisonJourney to ForeverKYOTO Pref., Japanhttp://journeytoforever.org/___Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Bioheating Oil
Based on the info on JtF, it looks almost as if bioheating oil hasn't been tested much (probably a false assumption on my part). Anyone here burning it? How could I tell if it will work in my furnace without potentially gumming up the works? If appears to me that the advantages of bioheating oil over biodiesel are fewer inputs (cheaper) and a slightly simplified process. Is that correct? I am in the process of building my biodiesel processor, would there be any pitfalls of processing bioheating oil and biodiesel in the same processor? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Bioheating Oil
On 9/6/05, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's been well-tested in what we say it's been tested in, mainly this:Journey to Forever's forced-air biofuel heater http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_motherearth/me9.html This much I knew, what I'm not sure of is the number of other burners its been tested in. We have a 250 or 275 gallon tank for our heating oil. It could get real messy (and expensive) if I needed drain it. I'm also not sure that I could fix my furnace rapidly enough if I needed to. I guess the risk is reduced a bit when mixed with petro heating oil. No? Depends on the furnace, as with biodiesel. Try it, keep a close eyeon it, especially at first, if you start to have problems then stop. Like I said, this concerns me a bit. It says:There's little or no free methanol left so it should be safe if you want to use it in the type of burner or furnace that has rubber pipesand seals, but we haven't tried that and it might be wise to changethe rubber parts for resistant material anyway.Some burners are more sensitive to viscosity than others. Biodiesel is more viscous than petroleum heating oil, and bioheating oil ismore viscous than biodiesel, so if biodiesel doesn't work in yourfurnace then bioheating oil won't either, though in both casespre-heating the oil might work. I caught all of this. What do you do when the furnace won't fire up though? If appears to me that the advantages of bioheating oil overbiodiesel are fewer inputs (cheaper) and a slightly simplified process.More than slightly, especially since you're not trying to pass anyquality tests.Is that correct?More or less. Not inconsiderable advantages, IMHO. Not at all, I gotta make sure I'm understanding it all correctly before jumpin' in. I am in the process of building my biodiesel processor, would therebe any pitfalls of processing bioheating oil and biodiesel in the same processor?What pitfalls could there be? Bioheating oil uses the same processand the same chemicals. I truly suspected no problems but, I'm not one of the many experts on this topic. Always better safe than sorry. Best wishesKeith Take care, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Solar Hot Water and Radiant Heat
I know its not much better but, I believe our insert is rated at 40% efficiency. We plan to move to a more efficient catalytic wood burning insert as soon as we can swing the finances. Vermont Castings claims 78% efficiency of one of their models. Kirk wrote: Your insert with a fan is probably 300% more efficient than a fireplace. That means instead of 98% of the heating value of the fuel being lost up the chimney only 90% is lost. THe only fireplace I know of that is worth owning is the Finnish masonry firplace and I think it weighs 2 to 3 tons. Definitely not a trivial second storey affair. I myself favor biodiesel cogeneration so electricity and heat are obtained from the same fuel. Can reduce electricity cost to around 5 cents a kilowatt hour. Then there is the reliability of not being vulnerable to problems on the grid. Lousiana is a good case in point re not having your own. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Solar Hot Water and Radiant Heat
Hi all, I know that this has been discussed in the past but, a search of the archives turns up discussions from a few years ago (unless my searching was less than adequate). Seems to me that the timing is right to rehash the topic. I have been researching solar hot water and radiant heating periodically for a while now, knowing that I have a few zones in my house that are not sufficiently warm. I also know that I want to do whatever I can to conserve. Under the current circumstances here in the U.S., there is no better time than now. Yeah, I know, yesterday was the best time but, I was fishing. In our particular situation, we have two bedrooms that stay on the cooler side (actually they're downright cold). They are over the garage and on the north side of the house. The garage below is unfinished but the ceiling above the garage is insulated. However, the house is 50 years old. I have no idea how old that insulation is nor do I know the R-factor of it. I would like to finish/insulate the garage walls, pull down the garage ceiling, install radiant heating below my sons' bedrooms and reinsulate the garage ceiling. I know that proper insulation alone will make a big difference but, based on several variables I am certain that it won't fix the problem all together. I plan to implement a system that gathers the Sun's energy within a solar collector filled with an anti-freeze of sorts. The heat produced is transferred to water stored in an insulated storage tank via a heat exchange and then distributed to the zones via tubing. Sound like the standard setup? I am also considering building a window unit like I've seen in books by the Rodale Press. Additionally, I am still in the process of scrounging parts for my biodiesel processor. If I do this right, I could use the system to pre-heat my feed stock at a minimum. I plan to add more radiant solar heat to the rest of the house later but, because of the layout of the house, I will likely create two independent systems. This goes along nicely with my techy nature of building in redundancy anyway. Now, the questions that I pose to you are these: 1. Is this, truly, a worthwile endeavor? I suppose I should mention that I live in Lancaster County, PA U.S. 2. What is The source for information on this subject? 3. Can I Appropriately build a solar collector that is as efficient? (When I say Appropriately I mean - With materials that are readily available and sensible) 4. Should I plan to add on instead of having 2 separate systems? 5. Is there any reason why I couldn't use automotive anti-freeze? 6. Does any one have experience with Radiantec? I am considering using some of their components. 7. What is the group's collective experience? 8. Might I be better off building a window mounted solar collector initially? 9. Are there other more efficient solutions? Thanks for the bandwidth, Take care, Ken ***Editor's Note*** I am my own editor and often drink on the job. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Solar Hot Water and Radiant Heat
On 9/4/05, *robert luis rabello* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you do this, however, you'll want to install grommets in the floor joists. We didn't, so whenever the boiler fires up, the plastic pipes tap against the joists. It sounds like a myriad of golf balls bouncing on the floor--not altogether unpleasant, but certainly something unnecessary. Is there a specific type of material or will any old grommet do? Part of that greater efficiency, however, may stem from the fact that I sealed every join between floor and wall and caulked around every window when we built the house. I'm working on that sort of stuff but, it's much slower in the retro-fit. You can set your boiler to heat an insulated storage tank and put in an extra coil for solar input. If the thermostat on the storage tank is set for a given temperature, your boiler will only activate when the solar thermal energy has been used first. This is something that I've been trying to figure out for a while. I was way over complicating the design in my head. As long as I build or modify the storage tank myself and change my thermostat, it's not nearly as complicated as I initially thought. In theory, you could tap heat from the tank for domestic hot water as well, so a single system could serve home heating and water heating. That was definitely a design consideration that I skipped in my post. I was planning on implementing that as addition 2 of phase 2. Most good boilers are more efficient than water heater tanks, engendering another savings (albeit a small one) down the road. Disadvantages include: 1. The potential for structural damage with a leak. A properly designed system SHOULDN'T leak, but then, I live in earthquake country and we have to take that risk seriously. This isn't TOO much of a concern for us as the plumbing will be in the basement. Part of our basement is finished but, a good disaster would be just the reason to do all the proper insulating which my better half is none too enthusiastic about. 2. Greater initial expense for radiant heat. How so? Of course, I'm not dealing with initial expenses here anyway. 4. Wood fired boilers pollute more than wood fired forced air systems because water is much more efficient at removing heat energy from the fire box. This can also result in creosote build up. From a related yet different perspective, do I introduce any trouble by burning my wood burning fireplace insert? In seems to do a very good job and has a fan. Do you reverse ceiling fans during the winter? I'll be performing on-site tests this winter in order to prove either my wife or myself correct. Start with insulation and draft proofing. Get good windows and use window quilts wherever possible. Once you've taken care of these easily implemented, affordable solutions, the rest will cost less money and involve less work. As I mentioned before, I'm working toward that end. It certainly takes a while when you're taking over a home. Thanks much for your comments, Take care, Ken ***Editor's Note*** I am my own editor and often drink on the job. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Solar Hot Water and Radiant Heat
On 9/4/05, *Kirk McLoren* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As a rule of thumb a dollar of insulation buys more BTUs than a dollar of collector. This is probably true until you pass R50 for the roof/ceiling and R40 for the walls. I couldn't agree more. I'd like to bank on doing the proper insulation alone before winter but, I am not willing to take the chance that insulation alone will protect me enough from the energy crisis that we're about to witness. Thanks much, Take care, Ken ***Editor's Note*** I am my own editor and often drink on the job. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Flywheel 'batteries'
Could one replace precession forces with inertia? I've never heard the term precession force. On 9/1/05, Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: He turned it sideways and the precession forces crashed the bearing. That pump didn't stay in his hand for long.. Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Flywheel 'batteries'
I didn't want to be picky. I just wanted to comprehend. No sense readin' all this unless I'm going to bother understanding it. Joe wrote: Ok how about inertial forces due to gyroscopic precession? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] The Culture Wars and Racism
Michael Redler wrote: Hi everyone, Earlier this week snip and again On Aug 2, 2005, at 12:03 PM, Michael Redler wrote: Joe, you xenophobic moron. snip Michael, I didn't read an aweful lot of the exchange but, I can't imagine that this approach is going to be met with anything but aggression. Take care, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Homemade Shredder was: Compost Update
Anyone have any suggestions for a homemade shredder for yard waste. I have used my lawn mower but, the blade gets really beat up. Using the mower can also be quite a struggle if I don't get to it before the rain does. I have a ton of oak leaves and they, alone, take a really long time to break down. The compost that I'm getting seems very healthy but, I can't out-pace the trees. Thanks in advance... Take care, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Homemade Shredder was: Compost Update
Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Maybe these will help... http://www.motherearthnews.com/library/1984_March_April/Build_a_Common sense_Compost_Shredder Build a Commonsense Compost Shredder : Mother Earth News http://solstice.crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Deutsch/sh redders.html LOW COST SHREDDERS IN CAMBODIA Follows an old post from one of the Wise Old Men at the Homestead list. HTH Best Keith snip Thanks Keith, Lots of good stuff there. I thought about something similar to the mover conversion. That might be the way to go for general shredding and I can rent a chipper once a year for the bigger stuff. Maybe someone has other ideas also, though. Take care, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: Fwd: [Biofuel] give up meat?
bob allen wrote: Howdy Ken et al Ken Dunn - CountyEarth.com wrote: I think you mean beans and grains here. There are several traditional dishes where beans and grains are present. My late fathers favorite- beans and corn bread (he wasn't a vegetarian, but grew up dirt poor where meat was a luxury) You are correct, my mistake. Can I assume that the soy milk is supplemented with B-12 'cause it shouldn't be there naturally? That is correct. Take care, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again
Keith said: I suppose you could feed it to pigs if there's some pressing reason not to sell it, but the rational thing to do is to sell it, or you risk cutting the profitability of a major segment of the farm to perhaps below economic levels. It's the sustainability aspects that will suffer first. I suspected that profit might bear into this discussion. And I suppose that rightly so. We could probably debate profitability ad nausium but, there is certainly little room for loss on a family-run farm. A point well made! Why do you object to milk production? Or is it, again, that you're objecting to industrialised milk production? I wouldn't say that I object to milk production at all, I am questioning the sustainability of the practice and also the nutritional value to humans. And yes, I do most definitely object to industrialized milk production. Really, I'm just trying to understand. Hopefully, it might help someone else also. There's a calf in the first place, then the milk. No calf every year, no milk either. Industrial operations remove the calf after two or three days and feed it a commercial brew instead (often containing cattle blood, IIRC). No need for that, there's enough milk for the calf and plenty for the market as well. Right, but I assume that we have both been on the same page for some while now that we are not discussing industrial operations. We both agree that industrial farming will have to cease eventually. If, in practice, there really is enough for the calf and still for market, then I MIGHT be willing to do some reconsidering. More research on my part there. And we're not using human manure for fertilization. Why not? With ley farming there's no need for anything extra, you'd use the humanure elsewhere on the farm. It's only part of an overall composting operation anyway, and of course ley farms do composting as well. Well, I don't think that the practice is allowed in the U.S. regardless of its value. I probably should have worded that point differently to include only the United States. I'm still reading (and probably will be for quite a while). Doesn't a lactating cow consume more water and food? So what? So, IF (speculating, of course) there is no net gain, then the additional inputs are wasted and could be better used elsewhere. My question is at what point do you begin to notice diminishing returns? In other words, if I reduce the amount of acreage that I provide for grazing (because I am not taking milk from my cows) can I grow more food for human consumption? Isn't that an increase in the competition for resources that you mentioned previous? What competition for resources did I mention? I'm not thinking in terms of competition but of symbiosis, collaboration among parts of a whole. here: I said: You are correct, livestock definitely help us tend the soil but, that doesn't mean that you have to eat the animal for it to be beneficial to you. You said: Actually it does, eat them or compete with them. The more you read, the more things begin to corroborate each other and fall into place, then it's easier. This is the place to start: Introduction to An Agricultural Testament http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/howardAT/AT1.html An Agricultural Testament - Albert Howard - 1 The problem is that there are too many resources that corroborate one another on both sides of this debate. Don't think that this is the first time that I have had this discussion. I spent a long time (a really long time) making the decission of cut meat and dairy out of my diet. I was also raised in a family with a long farm lineages on both sides. Dairy farming is a way of life that I am fairly familiar with. I think that our views are close enough that I can certainly accept you promoting your views. I also don't think that it is irresponsible for me to suggest that people eat a balanced diet of fruits, vegetables and grains grown by local organic family farms while only consuming meat when an animal has outlived its usefullness. I don't see us agreeing 100% on this issue though. But, if you can convince me, I'll be your poster child. If our societies would just return to responsible hunting and gathering, we would have no need for this conversation. Take care, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again
Ken Dunn - CountyEarth.com wrote: Why do you object to milk production? Or is it, again, that you're objecting to industrialised milk production? I wouldn't say that I object to milk production at all, I am questioning the sustainability of the practice and also the nutritional value to humans. And yes, I do most definitely object to industrialized milk production. Really, I'm just trying to understand. Hopefully, it might help someone else also. I should add that as mammals ourselves there is nothing that bovine milk provides to us that we cannot get directly from other foods or manufacture ourselves. Take care, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
