[Biofuel] Methanol recovery;
Hey Tom et al; I think I might have a new solution for our woes re. re-use of methanol. Rather than trying to dry it for re-use in making BD we might be able to just use it for fuel. This local dude who is way into performance diesels comes into my place last night to talk about BD production and when I start talking about recovered methanol he suggests spraying it into the air intake on the diesel engine. Apparently he pioneered this idea years ago and now it is common among the tractor pull crowd. It can have high water content with no problem, in fact he says they sometimes intentionally add water to methanol when using this technique to avoid overfueling the engine and yet still getting the cooling effect that they need when they go for more power and EGT shoots up to 1500 deg or more. It sounds dead simple to add a spray nozzle to the air intake and use the recovered methanol for an occasional power boost. He says it can easily give a 25% power increase. Another plus - you know how they describe on the TDI club pages about how to take the intake manifold off and clean all the black crap out so the engine breathes again? Methanol spray does this for you without taking anything apart. Sweet! I am looking for the downside to this idea. Can anyone here think of a reason this might be a bad idea? Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol recovery;
Propane is also used, but metanol would be more controlable and less volitale. From: Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol recovery; Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 09:52:11 -0500 Hey Tom et al; I think I might have a new solution for our woes re. re-use of methanol. Rather than trying to dry it for re-use in making BD we might be able to just use it for fuel. This local dude who is way into performance diesels comes into my place last night to talk about BD production and when I start talking about recovered methanol he suggests spraying it into the air intake on the diesel engine. Apparently he pioneered this idea years ago and now it is common among the tractor pull crowd. It can have high water content with no problem, in fact he says they sometimes intentionally add water to methanol when using this technique to avoid overfueling the engine and yet still getting the cooling effect that they need when they go for more power and EGT shoots up to 1500 deg or more. It sounds dead simple to add a spray nozzle to the air intake and use the recovered methanol for an occasional power boost. He says it can easily give a 25% power increase. Another plus - you know how they describe on the TDI club pages about how to take the intake manifold off and clean all the black crap out so the engine breathes again? Methanol spray does this for you without taking anything apart. Sweet! I am looking for the downside to this idea. Can anyone here think of a reason this might be a bad idea? Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Recovery?
Mike Weaver wrote: HI MY NAME IS MIKE AND I HAVE A METHANOL PROBLEM. snip Thanks, I needed a good grin! doug swanson -- Contentment comes not from having more, but from wanting less. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * This email is constructed entirely with OpenSource Software. No Microsoft databits have been incorporated herein. All existing databits have been constructed from recycled databits. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Methanol recovery
Crystal Methanol has affected my spelling abilitie. Otherwise, I agree completely with Pieter. Amazing Keith, that you put any time in stupid articles like this man wrote. How can you keep your patients ? Greetings, Pieter. - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 8:13 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Recovery? HI MY NAME IS MIKE AND I HAVE A METHANOL PROBLEM. HI MIKE! I first began using methanol just on the weekends. A few bottles of dry gas here and there, just enought to make myself feel better about my fuel usage. Then it got to be too expensive to buy methanol in little bottles and I began to buy boxes of HEET. I drove all over town just to save a few cents on a case. Soon, as I began to feel better and better, and my VW ran better and better. I am ashamed to say I even got my friends involved. We snuck around behind seamy restaurants, liberating oil. We pretended to have drain problems so we could buy lye. We began to just want to be by ourselves, cooking our little batches. We egged each other on. Soon we had quite a litle crowd. Little bottles didn't cut it anymore. One of my buddies knew a guy who could get 5 gallon jugs. Suddenly life was good again. We built bigger and better works. We got brazen. We drove around stinking of oil - Thai food, French Fries and peanut oil. We started to meet the higher ups in the methanol trade. We did a deal and scored 55 gallons. We had quite a racket going. We though we were untouchable. Then it all came crashing down. There was an intervention. Nice white men is suits explained over and over how methanol leads to the destruction of the US economy. Good people at ExxonMobil, Shell and Sunoco would be out of work. They explained how we were a major factor in the collapse of the SUV industry, and the dire condition of GM and Ford. We felt bad. Today I am a happy member of society. I have an SUV and heat my house with petroleum. I drive work from the suburbs. Let my story be a warning to you all: One little bottel of methanol can lead to not just your downfall, but the wholesale collapse of all we hold dear. The American way of life is a blessed one. Be strong against the forces of darkness that seek to mislead you. Do not follow Keith. He is a false prophet. He lives on a mountain in Japan, preaching self-sufficiency. Little do most people know he is really the head of an evil cartel that has huge holdings in methanol, lye and vegetable oil. You have been warned! Oh, he has also cornered the market in Phenopthalein. It's not a false profit, how can you say such a thing? It's true that we did try to corner the market in that stuff but it didn't work because we couldn't spell it right either. Please make sure you get your facts straight next time before you start accusing innocent people of living on mountains and so on. And I don't preach self-sufficiency, all I said was I vunt to be alone. But thanks for asking people not to follow me up here at least. Be Strong! Hmph. Best Keith -Mike ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists. org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Recovery?
Keith! You live on a mountain in Japan? How are you coping with all the snow dude? Last I heard 4m fell. Be vewwwy qwiet while you tiptoe around ok? It wouldn't do to have a few megatons of snow come and wipe you off the mountain! J ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol recovery
Crystal Methanol has affected my spelling abilitie. Otherwise, I agree completely with Pieter. But what choice did you leave me, other than to have innocent people believing that we'd cornered the world supply of phenomenalfailure, which simply isn't true, the White House owns it. Amazing Keith, that you put any time in stupid articles like this man wrote. How can you keep your patients ? Bursts of manic laughter help a lot! Best Keith Greetings, Pieter. - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 8:13 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Recovery? HI MY NAME IS MIKE AND I HAVE A METHANOL PROBLEM. HI MIKE! I first began using methanol just on the weekends. A few bottles of dry gas here and there, just enought to make myself feel better about my fuel usage. Then it got to be too expensive to buy methanol in little bottles and I began to buy boxes of HEET. I drove all over town just to save a few cents on a case. Soon, as I began to feel better and better, and my VW ran better and better. I am ashamed to say I even got my friends involved. We snuck around behind seamy restaurants, liberating oil. We pretended to have drain problems so we could buy lye. We began to just want to be by ourselves, cooking our little batches. We egged each other on. Soon we had quite a litle crowd. Little bottles didn't cut it anymore. One of my buddies knew a guy who could get 5 gallon jugs. Suddenly life was good again. We built bigger and better works. We got brazen. We drove around stinking of oil - Thai food, French Fries and peanut oil. We started to meet the higher ups in the methanol trade. We did a deal and scored 55 gallons. We had quite a racket going. We though we were untouchable. Then it all came crashing down. There was an intervention. Nice white men is suits explained over and over how methanol leads to the destruction of the US economy. Good people at ExxonMobil, Shell and Sunoco would be out of work. They explained how we were a major factor in the collapse of the SUV industry, and the dire condition of GM and Ford. We felt bad. Today I am a happy member of society. I have an SUV and heat my house with petroleum. I drive work from the suburbs. Let my story be a warning to you all: One little bottel of methanol can lead to not just your downfall, but the wholesale collapse of all we hold dear. The American way of life is a blessed one. Be strong against the forces of darkness that seek to mislead you. Do not follow Keith. He is a false prophet. He lives on a mountain in Japan, preaching self-sufficiency. Little do most people know he is really the head of an evil cartel that has huge holdings in methanol, lye and vegetable oil. You have been warned! Oh, he has also cornered the market in Phenopthalein. It's not a false profit, how can you say such a thing? It's true that we did try to corner the market in that stuff but it didn't work because we couldn't spell it right either. Please make sure you get your facts straight next time before you start accusing innocent people of living on mountains and so on. And I don't preach self-sufficiency, all I said was I vunt to be alone. But thanks for asking people not to follow me up here at least. Be Strong! Hmph. Best Keith -Mike ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Recovery?
Keith! You live on a mountain in Japan? Indeed I do Joe, at least Weaver got something right, LOL! How are you coping with all the snow dude? Last I heard 4m fell. 7m in some places. It's killed about a hundred people in Japan so far. Not so bad here though, much worse in the north. Be vewwwy qwiet while you tiptoe around ok? It wouldn't do to have a few megatons of snow come and wipe you off the mountain! I agree! But the snow's gone now. We were under about a meter of snow for a month, very cold! Coldest December in 20 years or something. But the thaw came on Saturday and the snow melted. Now it's cold again and it just started snowing. I'm sure there'll be at least one more cold spell. We can handle the cold here, unlike our previous place, 18 months ago. That old wreck of a house was just too rotten, the weather went straight through it, very miserable when it froze over, difficult to do anything except try to keep warm, or to get warm rather. This is the same kind of 100-year-old farmhouse, but it's not rotten. We finished most of what we had to do before the snows came, nearly all of it in fact, complicated things with fields and pastures and grains and chickens and so on. Looks good, so far. Thanks for asking Joe. Regards Keith J ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Recovery?
Hi Theo Big-time, huh? :-) Hello everyone, I am scaling up the size of my processing units to make about 300-400gallons of biodiesel a day. Right now I do not do any methanol recovery however at the larger scale it makes a lot of finical sense to get back the methanol. I have had a lot of trouble finding somewhat larger devices for recovering the methanol. I was wondering if anyone has experience in this field. The internet mentions methanol recovery but no sights really go into methanol recovery and biodiesl. Any help would be appreciated. am open to either homemade designs or ones that can be purchased. Any useful links or links to pictures would be great. Also is it be to recover methanol form the glycerin, the biodiesel or both? Preferably both, but you should do it at the right stages, and you have to make some decisions about how to handle the by-product. See: Reclaiming excess methanol http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#methreclaim Best Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Recovery?
Could you put it through a still like you were going to make your own ethanol? I assume that the biofuel and glycerin are higher boiling points and the methanol will decanter off. Greg O. from MA -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Keith Addison Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 12:04 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Recovery? Hi Theo Big-time, huh? :-) Hello everyone, I am scaling up the size of my processing units to make about 300-400gallons of biodiesel a day. Right now I do not do any methanol recovery however at the larger scale it makes a lot of finical sense to get back the methanol. I have had a lot of trouble finding somewhat larger devices for recovering the methanol. I was wondering if anyone has experience in this field. The internet mentions methanol recovery but no sights really go into methanol recovery and biodiesl. Any help would be appreciated. am open to either homemade designs or ones that can be purchased. Any useful links or links to pictures would be great. Also is it be to recover methanol form the glycerin, the biodiesel or both? Preferably both, but you should do it at the right stages, and you have to make some decisions about how to handle the by-product. See: Reclaiming excess methanol http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#methreclaim Best Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.or g Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Recovery?
HI MY NAME IS MIKE AND I HAVE A METHANOL PROBLEM. HI MIKE! I first began using methanol just on the weekends. A few bottles of dry gas here and there, just enought to make myself feel better about my fuel usage. Then it got to be too expensive to buy methanol in little bottles and I began to buy boxes of HEET. I drove all over town just to save a few cents on a case. Soon, as I began to feel better and better, and my VW ran better and better. I am ashamed to say I even got my friends involved. We snuck around behind seamy restaurants, liberating oil. We pretended to have drain problems so we could buy lye. We began to just want to be by ourselves, cooking our little batches. We egged each other on. Soon we had quite a litle crowd. Little bottles didn't cut it anymore. One of my buddies knew a guy who could get 5 gallon jugs. Suddenly life was good again. We built bigger and better works. We got brazen. We drove around stinking of oil - Thai food, French Fries and peanut oil. We started to meet the higher ups in the methanol trade. We did a deal and scored 55 gallons. We had quite a racket going. We though we were untouchable. Then it all came crashing down. There was an intervention. Nice white men is suits explained over and over how methanol leads to the destruction of the US economy. Good people at ExxonMobil, Shell and Sunoco would be out of work. They explained how we were a major factor in the collapse of the SUV industry, and the dire condition of GM and Ford. We felt bad. Today I am a happy member of society. I have an SUV and heat my house with petroleum. I drive work from the suburbs. Let my story be a warning to you all: One little bottel of methanol can lead to not just your downfall, but the wholesale collapse of all we hold dear. The American way of life is a blessed one. Be strong against the forces of darkness that seek to mislead you. Do not follow Keith. He is a false prophet. He lives on a mountain in Japan, preaching self-sufficiency. Little do most people know he is really the head of an evil cartel that has huge holdings in methanol, lye and vegetable oil. You have been warned! Oh, he has also cornered the market in Phenopthalein. It's not a false profit, how can you say such a thing? It's true that we did try to corner the market in that stuff but it didn't work because we couldn't spell it right either. Please make sure you get your facts straight next time before you start accusing innocent people of living on mountains and so on. And I don't preach self-sufficiency, all I said was I vunt to be alone. But thanks for asking people not to follow me up here at least. Be Strong! Hmph. Best Keith -Mike ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Recovery? Amazing !!
Amazing Keith, that you put any time in stupid articles like this man wrote. How can you keep your patients ? Greetings, Pieter. - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 8:13 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Recovery? HI MY NAME IS MIKE AND I HAVE A METHANOL PROBLEM. HI MIKE! I first began using methanol just on the weekends. A few bottles of dry gas here and there, just enought to make myself feel better about my fuel usage. Then it got to be too expensive to buy methanol in little bottles and I began to buy boxes of HEET. I drove all over town just to save a few cents on a case. Soon, as I began to feel better and better, and my VW ran better and better. I am ashamed to say I even got my friends involved. We snuck around behind seamy restaurants, liberating oil. We pretended to have drain problems so we could buy lye. We began to just want to be by ourselves, cooking our little batches. We egged each other on. Soon we had quite a litle crowd. Little bottles didn't cut it anymore. One of my buddies knew a guy who could get 5 gallon jugs. Suddenly life was good again. We built bigger and better works. We got brazen. We drove around stinking of oil - Thai food, French Fries and peanut oil. We started to meet the higher ups in the methanol trade. We did a deal and scored 55 gallons. We had quite a racket going. We though we were untouchable. Then it all came crashing down. There was an intervention. Nice white men is suits explained over and over how methanol leads to the destruction of the US economy. Good people at ExxonMobil, Shell and Sunoco would be out of work. They explained how we were a major factor in the collapse of the SUV industry, and the dire condition of GM and Ford. We felt bad. Today I am a happy member of society. I have an SUV and heat my house with petroleum. I drive work from the suburbs. Let my story be a warning to you all: One little bottel of methanol can lead to not just your downfall, but the wholesale collapse of all we hold dear. The American way of life is a blessed one. Be strong against the forces of darkness that seek to mislead you. Do not follow Keith. He is a false prophet. He lives on a mountain in Japan, preaching self-sufficiency. Little do most people know he is really the head of an evil cartel that has huge holdings in methanol, lye and vegetable oil. You have been warned! Oh, he has also cornered the market in Phenopthalein. It's not a false profit, how can you say such a thing? It's true that we did try to corner the market in that stuff but it didn't work because we couldn't spell it right either. Please make sure you get your facts straight next time before you start accusing innocent people of living on mountains and so on. And I don't preach self-sufficiency, all I said was I vunt to be alone. But thanks for asking people not to follow me up here at least. Be Strong! Hmph. Best Keith -Mike ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Recovery? Amazing !!
For all the different races creeds right down to individual family structures the thought patterns and the associated thought denominators are infinite. Common sense is not. For Keith to take the time to respond to the mail lets me know that 1/ he is alive and well on the hill/mountain and 2/ is not discriminatory but has a site open to all. For a whole to work as one it needs to understand all the globally diverse denominators and thus the responses to address them. Who knows where Mike or Keith will finish up or the influences/legacies they leave behind. Twould appear that nothing is immortal not even the earth we tread under foot. Doug Handisides - Original Message - From: Bioclaire Nederland [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 5:55 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Recovery? Amazing !! *** No virus was detected in the attachment no filename Your mail has been scanned by InterScan. ***-*** Amazing Keith, that you put any time in stupid articles like this man wrote. How can you keep your patients ? Greetings, Pieter. - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 8:13 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Recovery? HI MY NAME IS MIKE AND I HAVE A METHANOL PROBLEM. HI MIKE! I first began using methanol just on the weekends. A few bottles of dry gas here and there, just enought to make myself feel better about my fuel usage. Then it got to be too expensive to buy methanol in little bottles and I began to buy boxes of HEET. I drove all over town just to save a few cents on a case. Soon, as I began to feel better and better, and my VW ran better and better. I am ashamed to say I even got my friends involved. We snuck around behind seamy restaurants, liberating oil. We pretended to have drain problems so we could buy lye. We began to just want to be by ourselves, cooking our little batches. We egged each other on. Soon we had quite a litle crowd. Little bottles didn't cut it anymore. One of my buddies knew a guy who could get 5 gallon jugs. Suddenly life was good again. We built bigger and better works. We got brazen. We drove around stinking of oil - Thai food, French Fries and peanut oil. We started to meet the higher ups in the methanol trade. We did a deal and scored 55 gallons. We had quite a racket going. We though we were untouchable. Then it all came crashing down. There was an intervention. Nice white men is suits explained over and over how methanol leads to the destruction of the US economy. Good people at ExxonMobil, Shell and Sunoco would be out of work. They explained how we were a major factor in the collapse of the SUV industry, and the dire condition of GM and Ford. We felt bad. Today I am a happy member of society. I have an SUV and heat my house with petroleum. I drive work from the suburbs. Let my story be a warning to you all: One little bottel of methanol can lead to not just your downfall, but the wholesale collapse of all we hold dear. The American way of life is a blessed one. Be strong against the forces of darkness that seek to mislead you. Do not follow Keith. He is a false prophet. He lives on a mountain in Japan, preaching self-sufficiency. Little do most people know he is really the head of an evil cartel that has huge holdings in methanol, lye and vegetable oil. You have been warned! Oh, he has also cornered the market in Phenopthalein. It's not a false profit, how can you say such a thing? It's true that we did try to corner the market in that stuff but it didn't work because we couldn't spell it right either. Please make sure you get your facts straight next time before you start accusing innocent people of living on mountains and so on. And I don't preach self-sufficiency, all I said was I vunt to be alone. But thanks for asking people not to follow me up here at least. Be Strong! Hmph. Best Keith -Mike ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org
[Biofuel] Methanol Recovery?
Hello everyone, I am scaling up the size of my processing units to make about 300-400gallons of biodiesel a day. Right now I do not do any methanol recovery however at the larger scale it makes a lot of finical sense to get back the methanol. I have had a lot of trouble finding somewhat larger devices for recovering the methanol. I was wondering if anyone has experience in this field. The internet mentions methanol recovery but no sights really go into methanol recovery and biodiesl. Any help would be appreciated. am open to either homemade designs or ones that can be purchased. Any useful links or links to pictures would be great. Also is it be to recover methanol form the glycerin, the biodiesel or both? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] methanol recovery from fuel stock?
Thankyou Ken, succinctly put, as ever. Best Keith On Nov 4, 2005, at 10:11 PM, Ken Dunn wrote: I'm still a bit confused. What is the trick to evaporating the methanol without reversing the process? Very simple -- you can't boil off methanol when both biodiesel and glycerine are present without shifting the equilibrium backwards to some extent. You can recover methanol out of a mixture of methanol with biodiesel, or out of a mixture of methanol with glycerine, but NOT out of a mixture of all three. -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] methanol recovery from fuel stock?
what the boilling point of diesel is but itw way below the boiling point of water at 212,, buck From: JJJN [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] methanol recovery from fuel stock? Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2005 19:31:32 -0800 Hi Derick, I too am curios about this, but isnt 275 deg F on the edge of the envelope Bio? I would like to try this as well but instead use a vacume to keep the temp down. how much ethanol did you recover? That alone may make it worth while. Jim Derick Giorchino wrote: I have pondering this for some time but figured I should get some success with making fuel first. Since alcohol is added from time to time to storage tanks so it will mix with the water and thus the blended alcohol water mixes with the fuel. This being the said, I wondered if the wash could be shortened or less of a waste problem by distilling the methanol out of the finished product before washing. I have just finished a 120 liter batch I pulled off 1 liter of fuel stock ¸ I put in a old pressure cooker with the steam vent replaced with a hose barb and connected it to my evaporator. Turned the flame on and heated to 275 deg F for 10 minutes or so. Let it cool a bit and pored it into a pet bottle added the wash water shook it hard it separated in just a few minutes. The other half was just put in a pet bottle and wash water was added and shook it hard although it is separating not even close to the same speed as the demethanoled batch. Is there any problem with this process? I wouldnât ask but I canât find anything in the archives. Thanks Derick ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ _ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] methanol recovery
test batches, (1 litre), and lurking on this fine list, absorbing information, and reading a lot on the biodiesel pages. I guess I've got a decent grip on the process and the chemistry involved, but I've had a question that I've not found the answer to yet. If I'm using 20% by volume of methanol to make my methoxide then run the transesterification, I understand that the methanol becomes part of the molecule chain, with some attaching to the glycerides, and some still floating free in the biodiesel which is washed out toward the end of the process. So if I was to distill the glycerides and soap rinse water, about what percentage of the methanol that I put in is likely to still be recoverable with a distillery? Assume that the recipe is the common NaOH/methanol, without the extra steps consisting of the sulfuric or phosphoric acid treatments... I'd like to know about how much of my waste material is going to be recoverable, because as nature shows us, the concept of waste is man-made. There is no waste in nature. Thanks for your input, in advance. doug swanson ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] methanol recovery
I've been preparing my processing system, done a little in the way of test batches, (1 litre), and lurking on this fine list, absorbing information, and reading a lot on the biodiesel pages. I guess I've got a decent grip on the process and the chemistry involved, but I've had a question that I've not found the answer to yet. If I'm using 20% by volume of methanol to make my methoxide then run the transesterification, I understand that the methanol becomes part of the molecule chain, with some attaching to the glycerides, and some still floating free in the biodiesel which is washed out toward the end of the process. So if I was to distill the glycerides and soap rinse water, about what percentage of the methanol that I put in is likely to still be recoverable with a distillery? Assume that the recipe is the common NaOH/methanol, without the extra steps consisting of the sulfuric or phosphoric acid treatments... I'd like to know about how much of my waste material is going to be recoverable, because as nature shows us, the concept of waste is man-made. There is no waste in nature. Thanks for your input, in advance. doug swanson ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ I have just fitted a condenser to my processor. I use the 2 stage base/base process and add 20 litres of methanol to each 80 litre batch of wvo. I add the byproduct removed after the first stage after the second stage is finished and then boil off the methanol. I am recovering about 6 litres of methanol out of each batch. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Recovery
Reverse osmosis could remove the methanol from the glycerine. You just need to find a membrane with a housing that is resistant to methanol. Andy On Sat, 05 Feb 2005 10:16:24 +1100, Andrew Lowe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ken Provost wrote: on 2/4/05 5:41 AM, Legal Eagle at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: G'day; I have just completed a simple condenser for methanol recovery, however I am still left with a question. Do I need to bring the glycerine to a rolling boil or just bring up the heat sufficiently to get the methanol to evaporate (148.5F/65C) not necessarily boiling ? That depends on the exact shape of the boiling pot/chamber and still head, but my concentrating solar still used to start getting methanol in the condenser coil ONLY when the glycerine was simmering. The question is -- how rapidly does vapor have to be produced to overcome the rate that it condenses before reaching the downhill side of your setup. -K I can remember people mentioning other equipment besides stills for the removal of the methanol, words I can remember include thin film, evaporators, vacumn etc etc. Can anyone provide a few buzz words, or links, that I should look for if I want to do a slightly larger BioD unit, 20 Kl/week, and do methanol recovery. Any thoughts greatly appreciated, Andrew Lowe ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
[Biofuel] Methanol Recovery
I have just completed a simple condenser for methanol recovery, however I am still left with a question. Do I need to bring the glycerine to a rolling boil or just bring up the heat sufficiently to get the methanol to evaporate (148.5F/65C) not necessarily boiling ? Luc ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Recovery
on 2/4/05 5:41 AM, Legal Eagle at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: G'day; I have just completed a simple condenser for methanol recovery, however I am still left with a question. Do I need to bring the glycerine to a rolling boil or just bring up the heat sufficiently to get the methanol to evaporate (148.5F/65C) not necessarily boiling ? That depends on the exact shape of the boiling pot/chamber and still head, but my concentrating solar still used to start getting methanol in the condenser coil ONLY when the glycerine was simmering. The question is -- how rapidly does vapor have to be produced to overcome the rate that it condenses before reaching the downhill side of your setup. -K ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Recovery
on 2/4/05 5:41 AM, Legal Eagle at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: G'day; I have just completed a simple condenser for methanol recovery, however I am still left with a question. Do I need to bring the glycerine to a rolling boil or just bring up the heat sufficiently to get the methanol to evaporate (148.5F/65C) not necessarily boiling ? That depends on the exact shape of the boiling pot/chamber and still head, but my concentrating solar still used to start getting methanol in the condenser coil ONLY when the glycerine was simmering. The question is -- how rapidly does vapor have to be produced to overcome the rate that it condenses before reaching the downhill side of your setup. -K I can remember people mentioning other equipment besides stills for the removal of the methanol, words I can remember include thin film, evaporators, vacumn etc etc. Can anyone provide a few buzz words, or links, that I should look for if I want to do a slightly larger BioD unit, 20 Kl/week, and do methanol recovery. Any thoughts greatly appreciated, Andrew Lowe ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] methanol recovery/first batch results
--- Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] Quality testing http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_vehicle.html#quality One question about this testing: Aleks says, thin layer chromatography (tlc) can be used to determine conversion rate and hence quality. Has anybody done this ? What kind of eluent or mix is best to use for this ? Thanks Rainer __ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] methanol recovery/first batch results
what kind of a methanol recovery rate can I expect once I start doing that? Depends which stage you do it at, and what you want to do with the by-product. Easiest is taking back the methanol straight after processing, before separating the by-product, but this is inclined to cause a reverse reaction in the biodiesel. Still, you can get a lot back before that happens, especially with a vacuum. Otherwise, about 70% of the excess methanol ends up in the glycerine by-product, and about 30% in the biodiesel. A simple condenser will get most of the 30% back from the biodiesel without too much trouble. As for the by-product fraction, if you have a market for potassium fertiliser and/or industrial-grade glycerine (about 80-90% pure) which makes it worth the cost and time, it's best to separate the by-product into it's components first, which is hard (or impossible) once the methanol's been removed. After separation the methanol is left in the glycerine fraction and can be removed then. See: http://journeytoforever.org//biodiesel_glycsep.html Separating glycerine/FFAs Whether separated or not not, I'm not sure how much vacuum you'd need, but with heating alone the by-product or the separated glycerine would have to go to about 150 deg C to get most of the methanol back. We found it's not really economical to go much beyond about 105 deg C, which does get a lot back, but far from all of it. A better way is to use a thin-film evaporator, as Todd has recommended. I got the product of my first conversion this morning and it looks straw yellow but a bit cloudy, should I let it sit to clarify or should I wash it? Usually it's cloudy at first. It settles after a while. Ours is usually clear by the next day. will the cloudiness wash out? Yes. does that mean that my reaction is incomplete? Not necessarily. should I add more lye and methanol and reprocess? A better way of finding that out is this: Quality testing http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_vehicle.html#quality should I have titrated in the first place? Well, I'd say yes. I still think you're starting in the wrong place. Up to you, of course. Best wishes Keith John Guttridge ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] methanol recovery/first batch results
bottom, a thick white layer in the middle and a milky yellow layer on the top. interestingly my siphoned off biodiesel separated again over the following night into a perfectly clear yellow layer on the bottom and a milky yellow layer on the top. I have posted some images here: www.lightlink.com/jonny5/biofuel/ you will have to excuse the complete lack of processing on the images, I don't have my tools installed on the new laptop yet. I think that you are right that I am starting in the wrong place here. I am going to do another batch this afternoon using the pelly method and see how it works out. John Guttridge. Keith Addison wrote: Hello John what kind of a methanol recovery rate can I expect once I start doing that? Depends which stage you do it at, and what you want to do with the by-product. Easiest is taking back the methanol straight after processing, before separating the by-product, but this is inclined to cause a reverse reaction in the biodiesel. Still, you can get a lot back before that happens, especially with a vacuum. Otherwise, about 70% of the excess methanol ends up in the glycerine by-product, and about 30% in the biodiesel. A simple condenser will get most of the 30% back from the biodiesel without too much trouble. As for the by-product fraction, if you have a market for potassium fertiliser and/or industrial-grade glycerine (about 80-90% pure) which makes it worth the cost and time, it's best to separate the by-product into it's components first, which is hard (or impossible) once the methanol's been removed. After separation the methanol is left in the glycerine fraction and can be removed then. See: http://journeytoforever.org//biodiesel_glycsep.html Separating glycerine/FFAs Whether separated or not not, I'm not sure how much vacuum you'd need, but with heating alone the by-product or the separated glycerine would have to go to about 150 deg C to get most of the methanol back. We found it's not really economical to go much beyond about 105 deg C, which does get a lot back, but far from all of it. A better way is to use a thin-film evaporator, as Todd has recommended. I got the product of my first conversion this morning and it looks straw yellow but a bit cloudy, should I let it sit to clarify or should I wash it? Usually it's cloudy at first. It settles after a while. Ours is usually clear by the next day. will the cloudiness wash out? Yes. does that mean that my reaction is incomplete? Not necessarily. should I add more lye and methanol and reprocess? A better way of finding that out is this: Quality testing http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_vehicle.html#quality should I have titrated in the first place? Well, I'd say yes. I still think you're starting in the wrong place. Up to you, of course. Best wishes Keith John Guttridge ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] methanol recovery/first batch results
John, I am a novice at this too so others should feel free to criticize my remarks. I would suggest you titrate. This is not so easy at this stage because any free fatty acids in your fuel as you went into the base process are now soap, that is they are neutralized with Na.To convert them back to free fatty acids, I have taken say 10 ml of the product, and mixed it with vinegar strong enough to drop the pH back down to say 3 or 4. This will strip off the sodium. Separate this 10 ml of oil from the vinegar. Now you can titrate as if it were any waste or new oil. I think you are correct in assuming that you should have titrated in the first place. If you find that the free fatty acid is above 1 g/l equivalent NaOH then you will need to be careful when washing not to add much water to the first few washes. Check out the University of Idaho process. They use 5.5% to start out with and mix it up before the glycerin phase is separated off. Then settle for as long as it takes to get clear. But that process assumes you have the correct amount of NaOH or KOH added to your mix in the first place. Since you did not titrate first, you may not have added enough NaOH to neutralize the FFA's as well as catalyze the reaction. So the reaction may not have gone to completion. If you think that that is a possibility, You could always separate the glycerin, titrate as above, add 1/4 the original methanol and enough NaOH to both neutralize as well as catalyze. Then re-react. This second product will probably not drop any glycerin unless there was a lot of unreacted oil. I would probably let this batch settle and make a new batch with proper titration. You will learn from the new batch how to deal with the old. John Guttridge [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] com cc: Sent by: Subject: [Biofuel] methanol recovery/first batch results biofuel-bounces@ wwia.org 10/21/2004 09:16 AM Please respond to biofuel what kind of a methanol recovery rate can I expect once I start doing that? I got the product of my first conversion this morning and it looks straw yellow but a bit cloudy, should I let it sit to clarify or should I wash it? will the cloudiness wash out? does that mean that my reaction is incomplete? should I add more lye and methanol and reprocess? should I have titrated in the first place? John Guttridge ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] methanol recovery/first batch results
downsized version ? You got a Winzip? I could fire them off in a matter of minutes if you like. Let me know Luc PS: Congrats on getting started on your way to making good quality BD. - Original Message - From: John Guttridge [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 1:27 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] methanol recovery/first batch results I did the quality test and it resulted in a milky white layer on the bottom, a thick white layer in the middle and a milky yellow layer on the top. interestingly my siphoned off biodiesel separated again over the following night into a perfectly clear yellow layer on the bottom and a milky yellow layer on the top. I have posted some images here: www.lightlink.com/jonny5/biofuel/ you will have to excuse the complete lack of processing on the images, I don't have my tools installed on the new laptop yet. I think that you are right that I am starting in the wrong place here. I am going to do another batch this afternoon using the pelly method and see how it works out. John Guttridge. Keith Addison wrote: Hello John what kind of a methanol recovery rate can I expect once I start doing that? Depends which stage you do it at, and what you want to do with the by-product. Easiest is taking back the methanol straight after processing, before separating the by-product, but this is inclined to cause a reverse reaction in the biodiesel. Still, you can get a lot back before that happens, especially with a vacuum. Otherwise, about 70% of the excess methanol ends up in the glycerine by-product, and about 30% in the biodiesel. A simple condenser will get most of the 30% back from the biodiesel without too much trouble. As for the by-product fraction, if you have a market for potassium fertiliser and/or industrial-grade glycerine (about 80-90% pure) which makes it worth the cost and time, it's best to separate the by-product into it's components first, which is hard (or impossible) once the methanol's been removed. After separation the methanol is left in the glycerine fraction and can be removed then. See: http://journeytoforever.org//biodiesel_glycsep.html Separating glycerine/FFAs Whether separated or not not, I'm not sure how much vacuum you'd need, but with heating alone the by-product or the separated glycerine would have to go to about 150 deg C to get most of the methanol back. We found it's not really economical to go much beyond about 105 deg C, which does get a lot back, but far from all of it. A better way is to use a thin-film evaporator, as Todd has recommended. I got the product of my first conversion this morning and it looks straw yellow but a bit cloudy, should I let it sit to clarify or should I wash it? Usually it's cloudy at first. It settles after a while. Ours is usually clear by the next day. will the cloudiness wash out? Yes. does that mean that my reaction is incomplete? Not necessarily. should I add more lye and methanol and reprocess? A better way of finding that out is this: Quality testing http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_vehicle.html#quality should I have titrated in the first place? Well, I'd say yes. I still think you're starting in the wrong place. Up to you, of course. Best wishes Keith John Guttridge ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] methanol recovery/first batch results
before each go of it. Once you have your catalyst amount determined re-do the titration to be sure you got it right the first time and use the Better Titration method. http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#bettertitrate I have found that a VERY good electronic PH meter and scale are invaluable. They help eliminate those two areas of potential variants. The other sore spot I found to be heat. The processing heat should be 55C (130F), and not considerably lower. A good thermometer helps. http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#lye All about lye and the next one too How much lye gives you the groundwork for either NaOH or KOH as a catalyst per volume of mathanol. I have not attempted the two stage method yet nor am I intending to until the one stage has become perfectly clear and I am getting consistant positive results. Everything in it's time. Luc - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 2:33 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] methanol recovery/first batch results John, I am a novice at this too so others should feel free to criticize my remarks. I would suggest you titrate. This is not so easy at this stage because any free fatty acids in your fuel as you went into the base process are now soap, that is they are neutralized with Na.To convert them back to free fatty acids, I have taken say 10 ml of the product, and mixed it with vinegar strong enough to drop the pH back down to say 3 or 4. This will strip off the sodium. Separate this 10 ml of oil from the vinegar. Now you can titrate as if it were any waste or new oil. I think you are correct in assuming that you should have titrated in the first place. If you find that the free fatty acid is above 1 g/l equivalent NaOH then you will need to be careful when washing not to add much water to the first few washes. Check out the University of Idaho process. They use 5.5% to start out with and mix it up before the glycerin phase is separated off. Then settle for as long as it takes to get clear. But that process assumes you have the correct amount of NaOH or KOH added to your mix in the first place. Since you did not titrate first, you may not have added enough NaOH to neutralize the FFA's as well as catalyze the reaction. So the reaction may not have gone to completion. If you think that that is a possibility, You could always separate the glycerin, titrate as above, add 1/4 the original methanol and enough NaOH to both neutralize as well as catalyze. Then re-react. This second product will probably not drop any glycerin unless there was a lot of unreacted oil. I would probably let this batch settle and make a new batch with proper titration. You will learn from the new batch how to deal with the old. John Guttridge [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] com cc: Sent by: Subject: [Biofuel] methanol recovery/first batch results biofuel-bounces@ wwia.org 10/21/2004 09:16 AM Please respond to biofuel what kind of a methanol recovery rate can I expect once I start doing that? I got the product of my first conversion this morning and it looks straw yellow but a bit cloudy, should I let it sit to clarify or should I wash it? will the cloudiness wash out? does that mean that my reaction is incomplete? should I add more lye and methanol and reprocess? should I have titrated in the first place? John Guttridge ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
[Biofuel] methanol recovery/first batch results
I got the product of my first conversion this morning and it looks straw yellow but a bit cloudy, should I let it sit to clarify or should I wash it? will the cloudiness wash out? does that mean that my reaction is incomplete? should I add more lye and methanol and reprocess? should I have titrated in the first place? John Guttridge ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
re: [Biofuel] methanol recovery/first batch results
I got the product of my first conversion this morning and it looks straw yellow but a bit cloudy, should I let it sit to clarify or should I wash it? You will need to do your meth recovery before you wash it as washing will remove the meth into the wash water where its harder to recover. will the cloudiness wash out? that cloudiness is a number of things, soaps, some glycerol. If you aren't doing meth recovery then I would just let it settle for a day or so (longer if you can). It allows small quantities of glycerol to settle out and makes for easier washing. If you are recovering then run your recovery then let it set. should I have titrated in the first place? You should follow the instructions for which every process you're using. Titration is a useful tool but doesn't necessarly make your process work any better or worse unless you understand how to intrepret and apply the data. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
[biofuel] methanol recovery
would very light stirring speed up methanol recovery? (utilising 2 different tanks 1 for byproduct , 1 for biodiesel) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] methanol recovery before separation
- Original Message - From: Kenneth Kron Catching up on ancient email. If one continues mixing until the reaction is complete and I have not heard of any evidence that indicates separation is required for the reaction to complete and then introduces into the reactor enough acid to quench the sodium catalyst then I see no reason why you should not be able to recover the methanol before separation. Kenneth, I can see a problem here if the process was single base and the feedstock was high in FFA. The addition of acid could convert the soap formed from the initial neutralisation back into FFA. Careful monitoring of the ammount of acid added might prevent this. Whilst FFA is a good fuel in itself its compatability with the components of a diesel engine is highly suspect. In fact if you follow the Fool proof method then you do almost exactly this. You separate the glycerin, mix it with phosphoric acid and mix it back into your biodiesel. You've quenched the reaction right there and have everything mixed up. If it's critical to add the acid to the glycerin for some reason (which I don't quite see) you should have plenty on hand from previous reactions. Another way to strip some of the methanol from the raw biodiesel would be to use glycerine from which the methanol had already been distilled.. Mix the raw biodiesel and the glycerine. The methanol will disperse 50/50 in the biodiesel and the glycerine. The methanol can be distilled from the glycerine. But would it be cost effective? Regards, Paul Gobert. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] methanol recovery before separation
Catching up on ancient email. If one continues mixing until the reaction is complete and I have not heard of any evidence that indicates separation is required for the reaction to complete and then introduces into the reactor enough acid to quench the sodium catalyst then I see no reason why you should not be able to recover the methanol before separation. In fact if you follow the Fool proof method then you do almost exactly this. You separate the glycerin, mix it with phosphoric acid and mix it back into your biodiesel. You've quenched the reaction right there and have everything mixed up. If it's critical to add the acid to the glycerin for some reason (which I don't quite see) you should have plenty on hand from previous reactions. kk Thomus Patton wrote: Hello I'm a chemical engineering student working on a biodiesel production facility design project with my senior design group at NCSU. We are only in the initial stages and do not have a lot of kinetic data yet, but I would think that removing methanol would certainly be detrimental to your yield. I do not know if the resulting equilibrium shift towards reactants would be more than you were willing to give up or not, but something tells me it would certainly be noticeable based on the fact that most recipes suggest using a large excess of alcohol to push equilibrium towards the products (biodiesel and glycerin). lagonisa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello to all: I have read some contributions to this group about methanol recovery and the different options. I would like to try the recovery before separation of bio and glycerol using a condenser that would receive the methanol fumes after finishing the reaction. I have a processor were I get 75¼C-80¼C as it is pressurized to 0,7 bar. The problem is that I have also read that due to the reversibility of the reaction, if after finishing my reaction I remove the methanol by reducing the pressure and directing the vapours through a condenser, or even I apply vacuum after despressurizing to do it faster, I can get a reduction of the conversion transforming some biodiesel into oil again. My question is: has anyone in this group measured or experienced this fact? Is there a real decrease of the yield or conversion? Lagonisa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] methanol recovery before separation
Todd, this is a wonderful description! Am I correct in thinking that this device would work not only with the 5-gallon processor but also with Mark's 40-gallon water heater processor? I'm going to try drawing this and will send it to you privately to make sure I got it right. After the drawing is accurate, perhaps Keith will want to post it. Maud St. Louis, Missouri Maud, Condensers are easy enough to fabricate. Your trick is probably going to be figuring out what to use as an evaporator. Pot stills are a large headache due to the fact that they start to fry the liquid before the alcohol has evaporated. The thinner the layer of fluid the better, as there's not as much liquid for the alcohol to move through before it escapes as vapor. One of the simpler thin film evaporators that I've seen is a 3 foot piece of 1 copper tubing set at a 15 degree angle with two or three tea lights set underneath at six inch intervals. A small resevoir with a drip valve is plumbed in near the top. At the very top of the 1 tube is a T with four 1/2 tubes, 3' in length, branching off from it and angling downward. All four tie in at the bottom to a horizontal tube 1/2 in diameter, which is capped on one end and runs into a container on the other end.. The volume of the 4 tubes equals the volume of the 1 inch evaporator tube, so they can match the volume of whatever methanol evaporates in the 1 tube. The surface area of the 4 condensor tubes is double that of the 1 tube, so the heat will dissipate semi-quickly. If you can set the condensor tubes in a cold water bath there will be less chance that the evaporator will produce more vapor than the condensor can handle. The primary control over that is the rate of the drip from the resevoir. You'll know if the evaporator/condensor is tuned properly by the final volumes in each receiving container. A three foot run and a slow drip should be sufficient to evaporate all the methanol out of the biodiesel without elevating it's temp beyond ~160*F. You'll want to make sure that both the container that receives the recovered methanol and the container that receives the biodiesel (at the bottom of the evaporator tube) are vapor tight and each has a vent hose running outside. The vent is in case more vapor is produced than the condensor can handle. DO NOT simply seal the methanol container, as any methanol vapor that the condensor cannot handle (due to too fast a drip from the resevoir and/or too much heat to the evaporator) can back down through the evaporator and evacuate through the bottom. The vent hose on the container that receives the biodiesel is a precaution for an overheated or over-fed evaporator. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Maud Essen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 8:41 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] methanol recovery before separation Thanks, Todd, for going to the trouble of running that test. Can I run my own tests like the one you described if I can figure out how to make a condenser? Although I'm currently at the small batch (two liter-sized) processing level, I would like to develop and practice using a small condenser before I graduate to a larger scale. There is a lot of distilling information on the web that describes how to build a condenser on large scale. If it's possible to scale one down, are there any guidelines for sizing one that would be appropriate at the five-gallon level? (I was going to try the flexible copper tubing used to install icemakers and the like.) Thanks again! Maud No breadmaker, no Cuisinart, no icemaker either St. Louis, Missouri Maud, is the amount of methanol remaining in the methyl ester considered negligible? Is it possible to determine what percentage remains in the methyl ester and what percentage in the glycerol? Maud Just for grins and giggles and to answer part of your question, a 100 milileter sample of un-washed biodiesel was run through an evaporator. (Not much of an average sampling.) 100 milileters in and 97 milileters out. That would equate to an ~3% volume of alcohol residing in the fuel layer prior to alcohol recovery, or ~31 milileters of alcohol for every liter of biodiesel. That's ~15% of the original volume of alcohol. Not exactly insignificant. But then common sense never dictated that it would be. One qualifier. The unwashed fuel used to scratch out this number was from an aggregate vessel that is filled with fuel from multiple reactions, both straight base, acid/base, high volumes of alcohol per liter (250 ml) and standard volumes (200 ml). Still, I would assess 2%-3% as a conservatively safe value, at least until more refined numbers pop up. Todd Swearingen Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do
Re: [biofuel] methanol recovery before separation
Maud, The design is very simple. It works and works well, but is very slow. Five gallons of input can be run through in between 2-3 hours. There's just not much surface area for the trickle to pass over - width wise that is - limiting recovery to but that one thin continual trickle of fluid. The model I saw was fired by oil candles. The owner had taken three empty tuna fish cans, pushed the top inward and down to create a ledge similar to what a burning cigarette could be placed on when used as a homemade ash tray. A hole was punched through the ledge, a crude fiber wick pushed through it and the can filled with vegetable oil. We were discussing ways to improve the volume/time ratio. The first improvement would be to create better egress for the alcohol vapor all along the length of the evaporator, rather than only through the manifold at the top. That would literaly be a work of plumbing art and largely out of reach of the abilities of all but a handful of shadetreers. About the only other way to increase the output is to increase the number of tubes, each one being an individual evaporator which would then require it's own heat source as well as needle valves, etc. The easiest way that we can think of to improve the design and improve output without creating a Frahnkensteen monstor is to scrap it in all but principle and move the rivulet concept over to a flat plate evaporator. We've had some minor setbacks with flat plates adopting their own random drain patterns, quickly losing partial use of the full width of the plate. If the rivulet concept were included by milling small channels from top to bottom of the plate and spaced every few milimeters apart, there would be a stable sheeting of fluid over a broad surface area. In fact, the milled channels would increase the surface area that the fluid is in contact with in comparison to a purely flat plate evaporator. 'Course redesign would require an increase in symetrically distributed heat, probably meaning a water jacket beneath the plate, along with a considerably enlarged version of the condensor - not necessarily any more space consumed but an increased number of condensor tubes. The design would probably end up looking something akin to two shoe boxes butted up to each other in a T fashion. Long story short? There's probably not much need to get too carried away with the simple design. I believe it was intended more as a test/proving unit. There are still some thoughts of converting it to a home unit if the output can be easily improved. Then there's always the issue of the open flame heat source - not a problem with someone capable and cautious enough to create a vapor tight system. Not so sure that everyone falls into those categories of abilities though. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Maud Essen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2003 10:43 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] methanol recovery before separation Todd, this is a wonderful description! Am I correct in thinking that this device would work not only with the 5-gallon processor but also with Mark's 40-gallon water heater processor? I'm going to try drawing this and will send it to you privately to make sure I got it right. After the drawing is accurate, perhaps Keith will want to post it. Maud St. Louis, Missouri Maud, Condensers are easy enough to fabricate. Your trick is probably going to be figuring out what to use as an evaporator. Pot stills are a large headache due to the fact that they start to fry the liquid before the alcohol has evaporated. The thinner the layer of fluid the better, as there's not as much liquid for the alcohol to move through before it escapes as vapor. One of the simpler thin film evaporators that I've seen is a 3 foot piece of 1 copper tubing set at a 15 degree angle with two or three tea lights set underneath at six inch intervals. A small resevoir with a drip valve is plumbed in near the top. At the very top of the 1 tube is a T with four 1/2 tubes, 3' in length, branching off from it and angling downward. All four tie in at the bottom to a horizontal tube 1/2 in diameter, which is capped on one end and runs into a container on the other end.. The volume of the 4 tubes equals the volume of the 1 inch evaporator tube, so they can match the volume of whatever methanol evaporates in the 1 tube. The surface area of the 4 condensor tubes is double that of the 1 tube, so the heat will dissipate semi-quickly. If you can set the condensor tubes in a cold water bath there will be less chance that the evaporator will produce more vapor than the condensor can handle. The primary control over that is the rate of the drip from the resevoir. You'll know if the evaporator/condensor is tuned properly by the final volumes in each receiving container. A three foot run and a slow drip should be sufficient to evaporate all the methanol out of the biodiesel without
Re: [biofuel] Methanol Recovery for Beginners -(2nd try)
Chris, What I am unsure of, and would like some advice on is what is a good way to do methanol recovery? and what is the preferred method of transfer from container to container? A thin film evaporator coupled to a condensor is the best method of recovery. A rough verbal description can be found at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/message/30463 Something like this could easily be scaled up and modularized to match volumes of production. The heat source can be anything you choose. But the idea of a thin drip down an enclosed and heated tube is probably as inexpensive and simple as you're going to get. Off the shelf stuff. Better than a pot still. Preferential methods to move alcohol would be gravity and positive displacement using air pressure. Magnetic pump with a TEFC (totally enclosed fan cooled) motor at minimum would be my next choice. Method of agitation is your choice. Prop agitation is brainless. Use a TEFC motor and make sure your motor base is solid as a rock. Pump agitation is equally as mindless. A magnetic drive pump would ensure that you'd have no seal leaks. Again, make sure the pump motor is a TEFC enclosure. Plastic containers can be heated with suspended heat exchangers of whatever preference. You'll not want to go beyond 120*F and preferably only use tanks rated at 1.9 specific gravity. Higher temps and thinner tanks will warp sooner. Insulate heavily. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Chris Jude [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, December 22, 2003 12:14 PM Subject: [biofuel] Methanol Recovery for Beginners -(2nd try) Howdy y'all, I sent this a week ago, but got no reply. Anyone have any ideas? I've been lurking about on this list and have a couple questions. I am forming a biodiesel co-op at my university (Appalachian State, NC) and this spring semester I plan to build a processor. I've made several 1L batches using Alex's 2-stage method. They seemed to turn out well. I've been working with a chemistry professor and will be able to continue working with him. I've studied biodiesel for a couple years now, but it seems that a lot of the info I know n processor's is a bit out dated now (fryer to the fuel tank era). I see that we need to be using closed processors and that methanol recovery is essential. I'm interested in building a processor to make about 80-100 gal a week off of wvo from the school. Last semester I welded a stand to hold a 100 gal hdpe container that could be covered to use as a processor. I understand that I will need a container to mix methoxide in, and a container to bubble wash and settle the biodiesel. What I am unsure of, and would like some advice on is what is a good way to do methanol recovery? and what is the preferred method of transfer from container to container? I am looking for salvaged or inexpensive materials, and a not too complex system. I do however have the help of several technology professors in my dept. What should I look for in a transfer pump? Is pump mixing preferrable, or should I use a mechanical stirrer? If using a plastic container, what is a good way to heat? I thank you for your help, and look forward to being a producing member of the list! Chris Jude ASU Biodiesel Club Boone, NC 1980 MB 240D - 350K miles _ - Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
thin film evaporator for ethanol? [was - Re: [biofuel] Methanol Recovery for Beginners -(2nd try)]
Appal Energy said: A thin film evaporator coupled to a condensor is the best method of recovery. A rough verbal description can be found at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/message/30463 Something like this could easily be scaled up and modularized to match volumes of production. Have any of you heard of a thin film evaporator being used for ethanol distilation, with a packed column? This seems like it could be a lot better method than a pot still, and better than just a packed column. Cheers, Dan -- Jack of all trades, master of none. Fiber Artist - Genealogist - Kilt Maker - Linux Geek - Piper - Woodworker http://www.xmission.com/~redbeard Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: thin film evaporator for ethanol? [was - Re: [biofuel] Methanol Recovery for Beginners -(2nd try)]
Me thinks that's a question befitting the Revenuer. - Original Message - From: Dan Maker [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2003 3:25 AM Subject: thin film evaporator for ethanol? [was - Re: [biofuel] Methanol Recovery for Beginners -(2nd try)] Appal Energy said: A thin film evaporator coupled to a condensor is the best method of recovery. A rough verbal description can be found at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/message/30463 Something like this could easily be scaled up and modularized to match volumes of production. Have any of you heard of a thin film evaporator being used for ethanol distilation, with a packed column? This seems like it could be a lot better method than a pot still, and better than just a packed column. Cheers, Dan -- Jack of all trades, master of none. Fiber Artist - Genealogist - Kilt Maker - Linux Geek - Piper - Woodworker http://www.xmission.com/~redbeard Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Methanol Recovery for Beginners -(2nd try)
Howdy y'all, I sent this a week ago, but got no reply. Anyone have any ideas? I've been lurking about on this list and have a couple questions. I am forming a biodiesel co-op at my university (Appalachian State, NC) and this spring semester I plan to build a processor. I've made several 1L batches using Alex's 2-stage method. They seemed to turn out well. I've been working with a chemistry professor and will be able to continue working with him. I've studied biodiesel for a couple years now, but it seems that a lot of the info I know n processor's is a bit out dated now (fryer to the fuel tank era). I see that we need to be using closed processors and that methanol recovery is essential. I'm interested in building a processor to make about 80-100 gal a week off of wvo from the school. Last semester I welded a stand to hold a 100 gal hdpe container that could be covered to use as a processor. I understand that I will need a container to mix methoxide in, and a container to bubble wash and settle the biodiesel. What I am unsure of, and would like some advice on is what is a good way to do methanol recovery? and what is the preferred method of transfer from container to container? I am looking for salvaged or inexpensive materials, and a not too complex system. I do however have the help of several technology professors in my dept. What should I look for in a transfer pump? Is pump mixing preferrable, or should I use a mechanical stirrer? If using a plastic container, what is a good way to heat? I thank you for your help, and look forward to being a producing member of the list! Chris Jude ASU Biodiesel Club Boone, NC 1980 MB 240D - 350K miles _ - Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] methanol recovery before separation
Thanks, Todd, for going to the trouble of running that test. Can I run my own tests like the one you described if I can figure out how to make a condenser? Although I'm currently at the small batch (two liter-sized) processing level, I would like to develop and practice using a small condenser before I graduate to a larger scale. There is a lot of distilling information on the web that describes how to build a condenser on large scale. If it's possible to scale one down, are there any guidelines for sizing one that would be appropriate at the five-gallon level? (I was going to try the flexible copper tubing used to install icemakers and the like.) Thanks again! Maud No breadmaker, no Cuisinart, no icemaker either St. Louis, Missouri Maud, is the amount of methanol remaining in the methyl ester considered negligible? Is it possible to determine what percentage remains in the methyl ester and what percentage in the glycerol? Maud Just for grins and giggles and to answer part of your question, a 100 milileter sample of un-washed biodiesel was run through an evaporator. (Not much of an average sampling.) 100 milileters in and 97 milileters out. That would equate to an ~3% volume of alcohol residing in the fuel layer prior to alcohol recovery, or ~31 milileters of alcohol for every liter of biodiesel. That's ~15% of the original volume of alcohol. Not exactly insignificant. But then common sense never dictated that it would be. One qualifier. The unwashed fuel used to scratch out this number was from an aggregate vessel that is filled with fuel from multiple reactions, both straight base, acid/base, high volumes of alcohol per liter (250 ml) and standard volumes (200 ml). Still, I would assess 2%-3% as a conservatively safe value, at least until more refined numbers pop up. Todd Swearingen Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] methanol recovery before separation
Maud, Condensers are easy enough to fabricate. Your trick is probably going to be figuring out what to use as an evaporator. Pot stills are a large headache due to the fact that they start to fry the liquid before the alcohol has evaporated. The thinner the layer of fluid the better, as there's not as much liquid for the alcohol to move through before it escapes as vapor. One of the simpler thin film evaporators that I've seen is a 3 foot piece of 1 copper tubing set at a 15 degree angle with two or three tea lights set underneath at six inch intervals. A small resevoir with a drip valve is plumbed in near the top. At the very top of the 1 tube is a T with four 1/2 tubes, 3' in length, branching off from it and angling downward. All four tie in at the bottom to a horizontal tube 1/2 in diameter, which is capped on one end and runs into a container on the other end.. The volume of the 4 tubes equals the volume of the 1 inch evaporator tube, so they can match the volume of whatever methanol evaporates in the 1 tube. The surface area of the 4 condensor tubes is double that of the 1 tube, so the heat will dissipate semi-quickly. If you can set the condensor tubes in a cold water bath there will be less chance that the evaporator will produce more vapor than the condensor can handle. The primary control over that is the rate of the drip from the resevoir. You'll know if the evaporator/condensor is tuned properly by the final volumes in each receiving container. A three foot run and a slow drip should be sufficient to evaporate all the methanol out of the biodiesel without elevating it's temp beyond ~160*F. You'll want to make sure that both the container that receives the recovered methanol and the container that receives the biodiesel (at the bottom of the evaporator tube) are vapor tight and each has a vent hose running outside. The vent is in case more vapor is produced than the condensor can handle. DO NOT simply seal the methanol container, as any methanol vapor that the condensor cannot handle (due to too fast a drip from the resevoir and/or too much heat to the evaporator) can back down through the evaporator and evacuate through the bottom. The vent hose on the container that receives the biodiesel is a precaution for an overheated or over-fed evaporator. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Maud Essen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 8:41 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] methanol recovery before separation Thanks, Todd, for going to the trouble of running that test. Can I run my own tests like the one you described if I can figure out how to make a condenser? Although I'm currently at the small batch (two liter-sized) processing level, I would like to develop and practice using a small condenser before I graduate to a larger scale. There is a lot of distilling information on the web that describes how to build a condenser on large scale. If it's possible to scale one down, are there any guidelines for sizing one that would be appropriate at the five-gallon level? (I was going to try the flexible copper tubing used to install icemakers and the like.) Thanks again! Maud No breadmaker, no Cuisinart, no icemaker either St. Louis, Missouri Maud, is the amount of methanol remaining in the methyl ester considered negligible? Is it possible to determine what percentage remains in the methyl ester and what percentage in the glycerol? Maud Just for grins and giggles and to answer part of your question, a 100 milileter sample of un-washed biodiesel was run through an evaporator. (Not much of an average sampling.) 100 milileters in and 97 milileters out. That would equate to an ~3% volume of alcohol residing in the fuel layer prior to alcohol recovery, or ~31 milileters of alcohol for every liter of biodiesel. That's ~15% of the original volume of alcohol. Not exactly insignificant. But then common sense never dictated that it would be. One qualifier. The unwashed fuel used to scratch out this number was from an aggregate vessel that is filled with fuel from multiple reactions, both straight base, acid/base, high volumes of alcohol per liter (250 ml) and standard volumes (200 ml). Still, I would assess 2%-3% as a conservatively safe value, at least until more refined numbers pop up. Todd Swearingen Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http
Re: [biofuel] methanol recovery before separation
Maud, is the amount of methanol remaining in the methyl ester considered negligible? Is it possible to determine what percentage remains in the methyl ester and what percentage in the glycerol? Maud Just for grins and giggles and to answer part of your question, a 100 milileter sample of un-washed biodiesel was run through an evaporator. (Not much of an average sampling.) 100 milileters in and 97 milileters out. That would equate to an ~3% volume of alcohol residing in the fuel layer prior to alcohol recovery, or ~31 milileters of alcohol for every liter of biodiesel. That's ~15% of the original volume of alcohol. Not exactly insignificant. But then common sense never dictated that it would be. One qualifier. The unwashed fuel used to scratch out this number was from an aggregate vessel that is filled with fuel from multiple reactions, both straight base, acid/base, high volumes of alcohol per liter (250 ml) and standard volumes (200 ml). Still, I would assess 2%-3% as a conservatively safe value, at least until more refined numbers pop up. Todd Swearingen Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] methanol recovery before separation
Hi again Todd As far as the wash-water's concerned, water hyacinths quite happily eat the first-wash water, methanol and all, clean it up nicely. Well, actually it's a mix of water hyacinths and two types of duckweed, about both of which there's much good information to be found at JtF: http://journeytoforever.org/edu_pond.html#duckweed http://journeytoforever.org/edu_pond.html#waterhyacinth The washwater is innocuous enough, apart from the methanol - no heavy metals or toxins, for instance, so the plants themselves remain usable. Both make excellent compost, and that's a satisfactory solution - not as satisfactory as reusing the excess methanol, but you are recycling it well. Aslo the plants break the stuff down, they're not full of methanol and lye, and still make good livestock feed. Best Keith Maud, I wouldn't consider the MeOH content in the biodiesel to be negligible. Not at all. Unfortunately, many others consider it so. Simplest method to determine the volume of MeOH that resides in the biodiesel and glycerol, as well as the volume that was consumed in reaction, is to measure the volumes of alcohol laden biodiesel and glycerol, evaporate the MeOH and then measure the remaining volumes of each. The easiest way, IMNSHO, to determine if the MeOH volume in the biodiesel fraction is negligible is to stick one's nose over a container and huff it. (Not advised, but the point being made should be easy enough to decipher.) Without removing the alcohol you've got a fluid that has a flashpoint essentially the same as methanol, rather than the rather safe flashpoint of biodiesel. To test that theory, take a piece of cotton wick, anchor it in a 6 ounce metal tomato paste can as if you're going to make a candle. Fill the can with MeOH laden biodiesel. Light the wick as if the can were an oil candle. Sit back and watch. Everything goes fine for a bit, that is until the fuel heats up to the boiling point of alcohol. Then you have a runaway alcohol torch. That's the same alochol that would normally get washed down someone's drain or flushed out into the back forty. The same stuff that a lot of people consider insignificant. We haven't yet taken any time to quantify the average volume of MeOH that remains in the biodiesel. But it is a safe bet that the ratio is consistent between the biodiesel and glycerol fractions no matter how much alcohol is originally used. The more alcohol used in the reaction, the more alcohol will remain in the biodiesel and end up in the wastewater stream if evaporation is not conducted prior. Most people have probably noticed that MeOH and biodiesel are completely miscible in each other in any volume. If a person is worried about the energy inputs required to recover the alcohol from the biodiesel, then they should be looking at insulation, heat recovery and renewable fuels for the energy inputs. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Maud Essen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 7:08 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] methanol recovery before separation Todd, is the amount of methanol remaining in the methyl ester considered negligible? Is it possible to determine what percentage remains in the methyl ester and what percentage in the glycerol? Maud Lagonisa, The problem is that I have also read that due to the reversibility of the reaction, The reaction is not exactly reversible. Reversability would require the three glycerides and the glycerol recombining. That doesn't happen. Once the glycerol is cleaved it is out of the picture. You're suggesting MeOH recovery at the point where the reaction is complete and the glycerol has yet to settle out. However, that's not altogether adisable due to the continual mixing of excess catalyst with the methyl ester. If you reduce the volume of alcohol via evaporation at this point there would be a propensity for some of the ester to fracture (back crack) into FFAs and then convert to soap. Mind you that back cracking can only occur up to the point that all the catalyst is consumed in soap making. If you can monitor the reaction and insure that the balance of catalyst is infintesimally small beyond what is required to guarantee 100% completion, erego yielding but a small and controlled amount of extra soap production, then there might be some merit in extracting the alcohol prior to the glycerin cocktail settling. Otherwise? Probably none. Todd Swearingen Hello to all: I have read some contributions to this group about methanol recovery and the different options. I would like to try the recovery before separation of bio and glycerol using a condenser that would receive the methanol fumes after finishing the reaction. I have a processor were I get 75¼C-80¼C as it is pressurized to 0,7 bar. The problem is that I have also read that due to the reversibility of the reaction, if after finishing my reaction I
Re: [biofuel] methanol recovery before separation
Hello I'm a chemical engineering student working on a biodiesel production facility design project with my senior design group at NCSU. We are only in the initial stages and do not have a lot of kinetic data yet, but I would think that removing methanol would certainly be detrimental to your yield. I do not know if the resulting equilibrium shift towards reactants would be more than you were willing to give up or not, but something tells me it would certainly be noticeable based on the fact that most recipes suggest using a large excess of alcohol to push equilibrium towards the products (biodiesel and glycerin). lagonisa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello to all: I have read some contributions to this group about methanol recovery and the different options. I would like to try the recovery before separation of bio and glycerol using a condenser that would receive the methanol fumes after finishing the reaction. I have a processor were I get 75¼C-80¼C as it is pressurized to 0,7 bar. The problem is that I have also read that due to the reversibility of the reaction, if after finishing my reaction I remove the methanol by reducing the pressure and directing the vapours through a condenser, or even I apply vacuum after despressurizing to do it faster, I can get a reduction of the conversion transforming some biodiesel into oil again. My question is: has anyone in this group measured or experienced this fact? Is there a real decrease of the yield or conversion? Lagonisa Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. - Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] methanol recovery before separation
On Saturday, December 13, 2003, at 12:02 PM, Thomus Patton wrote: I would think that removing methanol would certainly be detrimental to your yield. So would I. Most of the methanol goes into the aqueous (glycerine) layer anyway, so you can recover that portion by distilling the glyc layer alone, after separating. -K Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] methanol recovery before separation
Lagonisa, The problem is that I have also read that due to the reversibility of the reaction, The reaction is not exactly reversible. Reversability would require the three glycerides and the glycerol recombining. That doesn't happen. Once the glycerol is cleaved it is out of the picture. You're suggesting MeOH recovery at the point where the reaction is complete and the glycerol has yet to settle out. However, that's not altogether adisable due to the continual mixing of excess catalyst with the methyl ester. If you reduce the volume of alcohol via evaporation at this point there would be a propensity for some of the ester to fracture (back crack) into FFAs and then convert to soap. Mind you that back cracking can only occur up to the point that all the catalyst is consumed in soap making. If you can monitor the reaction and insure that the balance of catalyst is infintesimally small beyond what is required to guarantee 100% completion, erego yielding but a small and controlled amount of extra soap production, then there might be some merit in extracting the alcohol prior to the glycerin cocktail settling. Otherwise? Probably none. Todd Swearingen Hello to all: I have read some contributions to this group about methanol recovery and the different options. I would like to try the recovery before separation of bio and glycerol using a condenser that would receive the methanol fumes after finishing the reaction. I have a processor were I get 75¼C-80¼C as it is pressurized to 0,7 bar. The problem is that I have also read that due to the reversibility of the reaction, if after finishing my reaction I remove the methanol by reducing the pressure and directing the vapours through a condenser, or even I apply vacuum after despressurizing to do it faster, I can get a reduction of the conversion transforming some biodiesel into oil again. My question is: has anyone in this group measured or experienced this fact? Is there a real decrease of the yield or conversion? Lagonisa Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. - Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] methanol recovery before separation
Todd, is the amount of methanol remaining in the methyl ester considered negligible? Is it possible to determine what percentage remains in the methyl ester and what percentage in the glycerol? Maud Lagonisa, The problem is that I have also read that due to the reversibility of the reaction, The reaction is not exactly reversible. Reversability would require the three glycerides and the glycerol recombining. That doesn't happen. Once the glycerol is cleaved it is out of the picture. You're suggesting MeOH recovery at the point where the reaction is complete and the glycerol has yet to settle out. However, that's not altogether adisable due to the continual mixing of excess catalyst with the methyl ester. If you reduce the volume of alcohol via evaporation at this point there would be a propensity for some of the ester to fracture (back crack) into FFAs and then convert to soap. Mind you that back cracking can only occur up to the point that all the catalyst is consumed in soap making. If you can monitor the reaction and insure that the balance of catalyst is infintesimally small beyond what is required to guarantee 100% completion, erego yielding but a small and controlled amount of extra soap production, then there might be some merit in extracting the alcohol prior to the glycerin cocktail settling. Otherwise? Probably none. Todd Swearingen Hello to all: I have read some contributions to this group about methanol recovery and the different options. I would like to try the recovery before separation of bio and glycerol using a condenser that would receive the methanol fumes after finishing the reaction. I have a processor were I get 75¼C-80¼C as it is pressurized to 0,7 bar. The problem is that I have also read that due to the reversibility of the reaction, if after finishing my reaction I remove the methanol by reducing the pressure and directing the vapours through a condenser, or even I apply vacuum after despressurizing to do it faster, I can get a reduction of the conversion transforming some biodiesel into oil again. My question is: has anyone in this group measured or experienced this fact? Is there a real decrease of the yield or conversion? Lagonisa Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. - Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] methanol recovery before separation
Lagonisa, The problem is that I have also read that due to the reversibility of the reaction, The reaction is not exactly reversible. Reversability would require the three glycerides and the glycerol recombining. That doesn't happen. Once the glycerol is cleaved it is out of the picture. You're suggesting MeOH recovery at the point where the reaction is complete and the glycerol has yet to settle out. However, that's not altogether adisable due to the continual mixing of excess catalyst with the methyl ester. If you reduce the volume of alcohol via evaporation at this point there would be a propensity for some of the ester to fracture (back crack) into FFAs and then convert to soap. Mind you that back cracking can only occur up to the point that all the catalyst is consumed in soap making. If you can monitor the reaction and insure that the balance of catalyst is infintesimally small beyond what is required to guarantee 100% completion, erego yielding but a small and controlled amount of extra soap production, then there might be some merit in extracting the alcohol prior to the glycerin cocktail settling. Otherwise? Probably none. Todd Swearingen Hi Todd Yet that's what Dale Scroggins does, apparently with good results. The touchless processor http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor.html#touchfree http://home.swbell.net/scrof/Biod_Proc.html Michael Allen and Gumpon Prateepchaikul's set-up at Prince of Songkla University in Thailand also reclaims the methanol at the end of the processing stage, though differently, and with high efficiency and a high-quality product (they test it). I wonder if this isn't somewhat theoretical, as with the idea that using acid in the wash will definitely backsplit biodiesel to FFAs and must definitely be avoided. If properly done - which of course shouldn't be merely so solve an emulsion problem (improve the process!) - it has the advantage of thoroughly neutralizing the catalyst, at the cost of traces of FFA which remain well within the standard specs. So here the same perhaps applies, as you indicate - a well-controlled process with the right amount of catalyst and the right amount of everything else too. Needs and economics will differ from case to case, and I think methanol recovery should be an option at each of the three possible stages it can be done - straight after processing, using the existing heat (to start with), recovering excess methanol from both the ester and the by-product; recovering the excess methanol from the by-product cocktail (that is most of it), which leaves the balance to be accounted for (in the first wash water); recovering the excess methanol from the glycerine itself after separating the by-product components (which still leaves the balance in the first wash water). Best Keith Hello to all: I have read some contributions to this group about methanol recovery and the different options. I would like to try the recovery before separation of bio and glycerol using a condenser that would receive the methanol fumes after finishing the reaction. I have a processor were I get 75¼C-80¼C as it is pressurized to 0,7 bar. The problem is that I have also read that due to the reversibility of the reaction, if after finishing my reaction I remove the methanol by reducing the pressure and directing the vapours through a condenser, or even I apply vacuum after despressurizing to do it faster, I can get a reduction of the conversion transforming some biodiesel into oil again. My question is: has anyone in this group measured or experienced this fact? Is there a real decrease of the yield or conversion? Lagonisa Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] methanol recovery before separation
Maud, I wouldn't consider the MeOH content in the biodiesel to be negligible. Not at all. Unfortunately, many others consider it so. Simplest method to determine the volume of MeOH that resides in the biodiesel and glycerol, as well as the volume that was consumed in reaction, is to measure the volumes of alcohol laden biodiesel and glycerol, evaporate the MeOH and then measure the remaining volumes of each. The easiest way, IMNSHO, to determine if the MeOH volume in the biodiesel fraction is negligible is to stick one's nose over a container and huff it. (Not advised, but the point being made should be easy enough to decipher.) Without removing the alcohol you've got a fluid that has a flashpoint essentially the same as methanol, rather than the rather safe flashpoint of biodiesel. To test that theory, take a piece of cotton wick, anchor it in a 6 ounce metal tomato paste can as if you're going to make a candle. Fill the can with MeOH laden biodiesel. Light the wick as if the can were an oil candle. Sit back and watch. Everything goes fine for a bit, that is until the fuel heats up to the boiling point of alcohol. Then you have a runaway alcohol torch. That's the same alochol that would normally get washed down someone's drain or flushed out into the back forty. The same stuff that a lot of people consider insignificant. We haven't yet taken any time to quantify the average volume of MeOH that remains in the biodiesel. But it is a safe bet that the ratio is consistent between the biodiesel and glycerol fractions no matter how much alcohol is originally used. The more alcohol used in the reaction, the more alcohol will remain in the biodiesel and end up in the wastewater stream if evaporation is not conducted prior. Most people have probably noticed that MeOH and biodiesel are completely miscible in each other in any volume. If a person is worried about the energy inputs required to recover the alcohol from the biodiesel, then they should be looking at insulation, heat recovery and renewable fuels for the energy inputs. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Maud Essen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 7:08 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] methanol recovery before separation Todd, is the amount of methanol remaining in the methyl ester considered negligible? Is it possible to determine what percentage remains in the methyl ester and what percentage in the glycerol? Maud Lagonisa, The problem is that I have also read that due to the reversibility of the reaction, The reaction is not exactly reversible. Reversability would require the three glycerides and the glycerol recombining. That doesn't happen. Once the glycerol is cleaved it is out of the picture. You're suggesting MeOH recovery at the point where the reaction is complete and the glycerol has yet to settle out. However, that's not altogether adisable due to the continual mixing of excess catalyst with the methyl ester. If you reduce the volume of alcohol via evaporation at this point there would be a propensity for some of the ester to fracture (back crack) into FFAs and then convert to soap. Mind you that back cracking can only occur up to the point that all the catalyst is consumed in soap making. If you can monitor the reaction and insure that the balance of catalyst is infintesimally small beyond what is required to guarantee 100% completion, erego yielding but a small and controlled amount of extra soap production, then there might be some merit in extracting the alcohol prior to the glycerin cocktail settling. Otherwise? Probably none. Todd Swearingen Hello to all: I have read some contributions to this group about methanol recovery and the different options. I would like to try the recovery before separation of bio and glycerol using a condenser that would receive the methanol fumes after finishing the reaction. I have a processor were I get 75¼C-80¼C as it is pressurized to 0,7 bar. The problem is that I have also read that due to the reversibility of the reaction, if after finishing my reaction I remove the methanol by reducing the pressure and directing the vapours through a condenser, or even I apply vacuum after despressurizing to do it faster, I can get a reduction of the conversion transforming some biodiesel into oil again. My question is: has anyone in this group measured or experienced this fact? Is there a real decrease of the yield or conversion? Lagonisa Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. - Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker
[biofuel] methanol recovery before separation
Hello to all: I have read some contributions to this group about methanol recovery and the different options. I would like to try the recovery before separation of bio and glycerol using a condenser that would receive the methanol fumes after finishing the reaction. I have a processor were I get 75¼C-80¼C as it is pressurized to 0,7 bar. The problem is that I have also read that due to the reversibility of the reaction, if after finishing my reaction I remove the methanol by reducing the pressure and directing the vapours through a condenser, or even I apply vacuum after despressurizing to do it faster, I can get a reduction of the conversion transforming some biodiesel into oil again. My question is: has anyone in this group measured or experienced this fact? Is there a real decrease of the yield or conversion? Lagonisa Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] methanol recovery again/detroit 671
Still havent' heard from anyone about methanol recovery. I am not a federal agent. SOmeone scolded me for using a vac pump from a freezer, to much of a risk? is there a way those can spark? Also does anyone knowthe hard facts about how much meth can be recovered? Would love to hear what you are up to out there is distilling land. BTW I've got an old coach and I am looking to make it into an svo. Anyone experimenting with injector size for the 2 stroke detroits? Running bigger injectors for more horsepower and more efficiently with svo/wvo. Thanks Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] methanol recovery again/detroit 671
bowlcole wrote: Still havent' heard from anyone about methanol recovery. Huh? You had four responses, including one from me, plus a couple more questions. Not much use asking if you don't bother to check for answers, is it? There's also been other discussion since then on methanol recovery, and a lot more before then, all of which is in the archives. I am not a federal agent. Wrong alcohol. SOmeone scolded me for using a vac pump from a freezer, to much of a risk? is there a way those can spark? Also does anyone knowthe hard facts about how much meth can be recovered? See the archives. Would love to hear what you are up to out there is distilling land. I think distilling land would be where they brew ethanol - that's around here for fuel, and at the two distillers' lists for drinking, which are reffed along with much else at the Journey to Forever ethanol pages and the Biofuels online library, plus a lot more information in the list archives. Distilling ethanol is a different ballgame to distilling off the excess methanol from the biodiesel process, which is much simpler, just a recovery process. Keith BTW I've got an old coach and I am looking to make it into an svo. Anyone experimenting with injector size for the 2 stroke detroits? Running bigger injectors for more horsepower and more efficiently with svo/wvo. Thanks Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re[2]: [biofuel] methanol recovery again/detroit 671
Hallo Keith, Saturday, 07 June, 2003, 08:35:54, you wrote: KA bowlcole wrote: Still havent' heard from anyone about methanol recovery. KA Huh? You had four responses, including one from me, plus a couple KA more questions. Not much use asking if you don't bother to check for KA answers, is it? There's also been other discussion since then on KA methanol recovery, and a lot more before then, all of which is in the KA archives. Not always a person's fault brother. I have seen replies to which I have never seen a question. Yahoogroups screw up perhaps. On other lists I have seen posts which ask why the group is so quiet when the list has over 100 mails a day. Just one of those things. :o) Happy Happy, Gustl -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. Mitglied-Team AMIGA ICQ: 22211253-Gustli The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Stra§e liegen, da§ sie gerade deshalb von der gewhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re[2]: [biofuel] methanol recovery again/detroit 671
Hello Gustl Happy Happy, As ever! Well, almost... Hallo Keith, Saturday, 07 June, 2003, 08:35:54, you wrote: KA bowlcole wrote: Still havent' heard from anyone about methanol recovery. KA Huh? You had four responses, including one from me, plus a couple KA more questions. Not much use asking if you don't bother to check for KA answers, is it? There's also been other discussion since then on KA methanol recovery, and a lot more before then, all of which is in the KA archives. Not always a person's fault brother. I have seen replies to which I have never seen a question. Yahoogroups screw up perhaps. Perhaps, but then I don't think he'd be able to post. Actually on our two groups I've never seen Yahoo not deliver a message - no, I'm NOT a fan of Yahoo (yahell). They do weird, dumb and horrible things, but the delivery system works well. You couldn't post, could you, with your recent problem with Biofuels-biz? (Fixed now, I hope?) On other lists I have seen posts which ask why the group is so quiet when the list has over 100 mails a day. Yes, baffling... and then there's the once-a week wonder of the person who sends his unsubscribe message direct to the list, in spite of all the notices. All groups have that, no good answer. Just one of those things. :o) Maybe... But what to do, just let it pass? - and have him and others too think that requests for information don't get answered here? Because they do. Or should all four of us repost our responses, only to have him miss them all over again? Rather give him a heads-up, no? And recommend the archives - it's an under-utilized, under-appreciated treasure-trove, nothing else like it, and I sometimes get the impression quite a few people don't realize it's there: 90 Mb, 25,000 messages over three years covering every aspect of biofuels, and Martin's archive is fast, with powerful searching tools, and NO ADS. http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuels-biz Or maybe this'll help: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=21700list=BIOFUEL Regards Keith Happy Happy, Gustl Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] methanol recovery
When recovering the methanol, do you heat the whole batch after it settles, or heat each part sepparately (biodiesel and glycerine)? Brent Sorry Brent, you didn't get a response to this: Different schools of thought on this. Some people just heat the whole thing up a bit more after the process and recover the methanol there and then, which has some advantages - it doesn't take much extra heat, for instance, compared with heating all or part up again from room temperature. Here's one such: The touchless processor http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor.html#touchfree Others say the disadvantage of this is that removing the methanol makes the glycerine by-product much more difficult to process. The by-product is actually a mixture glycerine, excess methanol, soaps and catalyst, and it can be separated - the methanol content makes it easier to work with. Here the methanol will end up in the separated glycerine, and can then be recovered. See: Separating glycerine/FFAs http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycsep.html Others again say it's not worth trying to recover the excess methanol from the biodiesel as most of it collects in the glycerine layer anyway, so just heat the by-product. If you do want to recover the methanol content from the biodiesel, you have to do it before washing, which will remove all the methanol. There's quite a lot about this in the archives. Here are a few previous messages, these mostly on possible water content of recovered methanol: I've used and re-used about thirty gallons of methanol so far using my hot pink vacuum still. At first I was worried about recovering water at the end of a run, so watched the condensate closely for any sign of cloudiness. I've never seen any. I don't think water can be recovered from the byproduct at anywhere near the boiling point of methanol. Dale Dale is right, recovered methanol is OK to re-use. I have found that from biod made using 15% meth (v/v WVO), the glyc. yields 3% meth (v/v WVO) and is well worth the trouble of simple distillation at 70 deg C. Probably will use 20% in future for an easier life without unnecessary loss of costly reagent. David T Any water in the mix is either tied up in soap or, at the very least, heavy in dissolved catalyst. Either will make the water much more difficult to boil. I haven't taken my rig up to high enough temperature to after methanol recovery to recover any water, so I can't be sure at what temperature and pressure water recovery would begin, but suspect it would be at a very high temp or low pressure. Dale Sorry, I didn't make it very clear, did I? I've used much more than 30 gallons in processing fuel. In total, I have recovered and reused about 30 gallons. Dale Which option you use is up to you really, depends what suits you and your set-up, the kind of oil you use, and your process. There are some further options too. One system constantly condenses off methanol vapours and recycles the condensate back into bottom of the mixing tank, then recovers all the excess at the end, seems very efficient. But I don't think that set-up is doing glycerine-FFA separation of the by-product. On the other hand, if it's good oil you're using with low titration results the by-product will probably stay liquid anyway and might be easy to separate even without the excess methanol. Best Keith Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/CNxFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] methanol recovery
When recovering the methanol, do you heat the whole batch after it settles, or heat each part sepparately (biodiesel and glycerine)? Brent Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/aM1XQD/od7FAA/uetFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] methanol recovery still anyone
Hi So what temperature do you operate the still at? Mark, England -Original Message- From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 25 April 2003 16:24 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] methanol recovery still anyone I'm about 100 gallons into this home brew game and quite addicted. But there's the environmental issue tht I hear many of y'all turning over, methanol is pretty nasty, ethanol a bit more friendly. I have been told that I can recover almost all of the methanol. is this right. Then who has made a still. I am pretty ready to start one out of the 40 gallon hot water heater tank. NIce closed system with heating elements already in it. Has anyone made a still and how much are they recovering? Can you use the methanol indefinately? Also I've heard of someone needing to 'get rid' of some ethanol that's not pure. catch is they are only selling 1000 plus gallons anyone wish to go in on a tanker full? what are the risks? thanks bowlcole Re recovered methanol, from the archives: I've used and re-used about thirty gallons of methanol so far using my hot pink vacuum still. At first I was worried about recovering water at the end of a run, so watched the condensate closely for any sign of cloudiness. I've never seen any. I don't think water can be recovered from the byproduct at anywhere near the boiling point of methanol. Dale Sorry, Mike, I didn't make it very clear, did I? I've used much more than 30 gallons in processing fuel. In total, I have recovered and reused about 30 gallons. Dale See: The touchless processor http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor.html#touchfree There's quite a lot more about this in the archives if you search around a bit. http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Best Keith Yahoo! Groups Sponsor Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Rent DVDs Online - Over 14,500 titles. No Late Fees Free Shipping. Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/YoVfrB/XP.FAA/uetFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Fwd: Re: [biofuel] methanol recovery still anyone
--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Supposedly, Terry Wilhelm wrote; Talk to the guys at The Revenoor Co. They build stills from 5 to 1,000 gallon capacity and larger. They also build a recycling still to recover acetones, thinners and the likes. Making your own ethanol is very easy, legal and fun.www.revenoor. com503.662.4173 I've always wondered -- is this the response of a bot, or does somebody named Terry Wilhelm actually look at all these emails? Just wondering, as I learn more about how these things MIGHT actually work. -K --- End forwarded message ---
Fwd: Re: [biofuel] methanol recovery still anyone
--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Terry Wilhelm [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello KenSince I dont know you personally and to my knowledge we have not talked to each other I was wondering just what this Email to the world ment.I do read all the Emails that come in and have responded to a few in the last two years if I think that they directly are related to The Revenoor Co. Just what is it that you are wondering how these things work. I must have missed something in the translation. Regards,(standing up) the real - Terry Wilhelm Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Supposedly, Terry Wilhelm wrote; Talk to the guys at The Revenoor Co. They build stills from 5 to 1,000 gallon capacity and larger. They also build a recycling still to recover acetones, thinners and the likes. Making your own ethanol is very easy, legal and fun.www.revenoor. com503.662.4173 I've always wondered -- is this the response of a bot, or does somebody named Terry Wilhelm actually look at all these emails? Just wondering, as I learn more about how these things MIGHT actually work. -K Yahoo! Groups Sponsor Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. - Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --- End forwarded message ---
Fwd: Re: [biofuel] methanol recovery still anyone
--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Terry wrote: Hello KenSince I dont know you personally and to my knowledge we have not talked to each other I was wondering just what this Email to the world ment.I do read all the Emails that come in and have responded to a few in the last two years if I think that they directly are related to The Revenoor Co. Just what is it that you are wondering how these things work. I must have missed something in the translation. Regards,(standing up) the real - Terry Wilhelm Nope, you got it -- glad to see you're not just a Turing machine. I just happen to think it's important right now to identify who's REAL and who's not. I've actually learned a lot from your posts, Thx, -K --- End forwarded message ---
Fwd: Re: [biofuel] methanol recovery still anyone
--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm about 100 gallons into this home brew game and quite addicted. But there's the environmental issue tht I hear many of y'all turning over, methanol is pretty nasty, ethanol a bit more friendly. I have been told that I can recover almost all of the methanol. is this right. Then who has made a still. I am pretty ready to start one out of the 40 gallon hot water heater tank. NIce closed system with heating elements already in it. Has anyone made a still and how much are they recovering? Can you use the methanol indefinately? Also I've heard of someone needing to 'get rid' of some ethanol that's not pure. catch is they are only selling 1000 plus gallons anyone wish to go in on a tanker full? what are the risks? thanks bowlcole Re recovered methanol, from the archives: I've used and re-used about thirty gallons of methanol so far using my hot pink vacuum still. At first I was worried about recovering water at the end of a run, so watched the condensate closely for any sign of cloudiness. I've never seen any. I don't think water can be recovered from the byproduct at anywhere near the boiling point of methanol. Dale Sorry, Mike, I didn't make it very clear, did I? I've used much more than 30 gallons in processing fuel. In total, I have recovered and reused about 30 gallons. Dale See: The touchless processor http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor.html#touchfree There's quite a lot more about this in the archives if you search around a bit. http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Best Keith --- End forwarded message ---
[biofuel] methanol recovery still anyone
I'm about 100 gallons into this home brew game and quite addicted. But there's the environmental issue tht I hear many of y'all turning over, methanol is pretty nasty, ethanol a bit more friendly. I have been told that I can recover almost all of the methanol. is this right. Then who has made a still. I am pretty ready to start one out of the 40 gallon hot water heater tank. NIce closed system with heating elements already in it. Has anyone made a still and how much are they recovering? Can you use the methanol indefinately? Also I've heard of someone needing to 'get rid' of some ethanol that's not pure. catch is they are only selling 1000 plus gallons anyone wish to go in on a tanker full? what are the risks? thanks bowlcole Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/pDi3hB/OC5FAA/AG3JAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] methanol recovery still anyone
Talk to the guys at The Revenoor Co. They build stills from 5 to 1,000 gallon capacity and larger. They also build a recycling still to recover acetones, thinners and the likes. Making your own ethanol is very easy, legal and fun.www.revenoor.com503.662.4173 bowlcole [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm about 100 gallons into this home brew game and quite addicted. But there's the environmental issue tht I hear many of y'all turning over, methanol is pretty nasty, ethanol a bit more friendly. I have been told that I can recover almost all of the methanol. is this right. Then who has made a still. I am pretty ready to start one out of the 40 gallon hot water heater tank. NIce closed system with heating elements already in it. Has anyone made a still and how much are they recovering? Can you use the methanol indefinately? Also I've heard of someone needing to 'get rid' of some ethanol that's not pure. catch is they are only selling 1000 plus gallons anyone wish to go in on a tanker full? what are the risks? thanks bowlcole Yahoo! Groups Sponsor Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. - Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z_CBYA/vB5FAA/AG3JAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Methanol recovery unit
movember [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Any suggestions for an off-the-shelf vacuum distillation unit for recovering methanol from a home-built continuous processor? If possible, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Preferably, send it here to the list - I'm sure a lot of members would be interested. Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Methanol recovery unit
Any suggestions for an off-the-shelf vacuum distillation unit for recovering methanol from a home-built continuous processor? If possible, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: paul, a form of vacuum distillation might recover the methanol for you. regards, roger - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] dear paul, your mixing tube packed witn ball bearings and two pump idea sounds great. could you please supply some more detail info (sketch,dimensions)? regards, roger kurz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Greetings Rodger, At the moment it is just an idea. I have gone so far as to purchase two Toyota Landcruiser oil pumps. $17 Aus each seemed pretty good given the capabilities of these pumps. Hand cranked drum pumps are selling for many times that.( Hand crank could be substituted for electric motor in my origional idea). The oil pumps and static mixer tubes are both ideas suggested by others, I can only take credit for the idea of using them together. So not much in the way of further details available at this stage. The pumps and mixing tube will be assembled once a processing regime is established. At present I am working on using unreacted WVO oil to extract the excess methanol from the glycerine layer. Producing a stable, quality BD from the tallow laden WVO available in Australia requires an excess of methanol and NaOH. 20ml conc aqueous NaOH soln and 250ml per litre methanol work well but the volume of yield drops to about 85% of oil volume. SG and viscosity are low, low temp stability and viscosity good. This is however an expensive way to make BD. Gelling of the unwashed BD is also a problem, I may be able to reduce NaOH level. Initial tests show that the methanol can be recovered in this way reducing the cost. Choice of a two stage or continuous recovery process will govern my choice of pump speed ratios and reaction vessels etc. Regards, Paul Gobert. www.ozimages.com.au/profile.asp?MemberID=517 Results of this experimentation will determine Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Methanol recovery unit
Any suggestions for an off-the-shelf vacuum distillation unit for recovering methanol from a home-built continuous processor? If possible, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Methanol recovery ???
Hi All How do most of you , that recover there methanol or ethanol do it ??? If you use a vacuum pump, where do you get one , and how do you set it up how much can be recovered from the glycerine ,or can one recover the Methanol from the entire BD batch , after the BD has been formed ??? any help would be goodmany thanks Martin R. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/Gi0tnD/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Methanol recovery ???
Martin R. asks: How do most of you , that recover there methanol or ethanol do it ??? If you use a vacuum pump, where do you get one , and how do you set it up how much can be recovered from the glycerine ,or can one recover the Methanol from the entire BD batch , after the BD has been formed ??? I make 22 liter batches using a mixture of about 25% methanol and 75% ethanol. All the methanol gets consumed, and some of the ethanol. Since I do a glycerine wash with added water (15% of oil), one batch gives a glycerine layer containing about 2.2 liters of glycerine, 3.3 liters of water, and 4 liters ethanol. I only bother to distill the glycerine layer -- no vacuum, just a fractionating column with reflux. The ethanol comes over with water, of course, about 90% cuz my still is not real efficient. I get about 2.5 liters of the excess ethanol back, which is worth about $3.30 counting my freight costs. My methanol is only $3.00 a gallon, and I probly wouldn't bother recovering it, but it would work even better, since it would come over anhydrous. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/Gi0tnD/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Methanol recovery ???
See the systems at www.resciences.com. If you do enough volume, they should work well. Craig How do most of you , that recover there methanol or ethanol do it ??? If you use a vacuum pump, where do you get one , and how do you set it up how much can be recovered from the glycerine ,or can one recover the Methanol from the entire BD batch , after the BD has been formed ??? any help would be goodmany thanks Martin R. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/Gi0tnD/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Methanol Recovery
Hi All Dose anyone have Plans on how to make your own still !!! to recover the Methanol out of the water and glycerine ??? without using vacuum pumps just using the old way of distilling Martin R. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Small business owners... Tell us what you think! http://us.click.yahoo.com/vO1FAB/txzCAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
