Re: [Biofuel] Vaporized gasoline engines work as proven totheworldby Shell Oil Company in 1973
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of robert and benita Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 11:59 AM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Vaporized gasoline engines work as proven totheworldby Shell Oil Company in 1973 Mike Pelly wrote: Sorry robert luis rabello but you are the one who is not reading here. Come back with some serious answers to address my questions so I can take you seriously. Hmm . . . I don't have a problem with that. It's the outlandish claim that vaporized gasoline can return hundreds of MPG in a REAL car that I disagree with. I never said this will get hundreds of MPGs in a real car. Those are not my words.. If we end up increasing hundreds of MPGs that would be nice but not something I'd expect. I have always contended that this is something we should be doing to increase the MPGS in real cars. If every car on earth got 10-15 more MPGs from this, That would be significant for me. This is what you've written in this forum? 10 - 15 more MPG can be done by making cars lighter and installing smaller engines. Hybrid drives are a step in the right direction, too. My hybrid Camry gets almost double the fuel economy of my Ranger, and both are of similar mass and displacement. And your point here is?? Are you getting anything of what I'm saying about vaporizing gasoline to increase fuel mileage? Yes robert luis rabello your camry hybrid gets better gas mileage than your truck. I imagine that is why you bought a camry in the first place. Just because you get a hybrid does not mean your fuel savings has hit the highest point it will go. You can vaporize the fuel or you can make it a plugin and either route will increase your Camry's gas mileage further. Just because you can not go to the store and buy one does not mean the technology is non-existent. robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice The Long Journey New Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 3060 (20080428) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 3061 (20080428) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 3061 (20080428) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Vaporized gasoline engines work as proven totheworldby Shell Oil Company in 1973
Mike Pelly wrote: Why does a gallon of liquid propane need to be pressurized at 172 PSI to stay contained in liquid form and gasoline stays liquid at room temperature? Those are its physical properties. Asking this question with respect to internal combustion is a bit like asking why ice floats. It's a matter of density at pressure and temperature. I use the example of propane to illustrate how a vapor mixes so completely with air (unlike a sprayed liquid) There are many reasons why propane and gasoline are different including their densities and length of carbon chains. Despite propane being a vapor at atmospheric pressure and ambient temperatures, there is still a finite amount of energy available in a given volume of liquid propane. It has a LOWER energy density than gasoline, hence, even though it's a vapor and mixes completely with air, propane delivers less energy per liter than gasoline. In fact, because gaseous fuels in general actually displace air in externally-mixed fuel management systems, propane normally delivers about 10% LESS power than gasoline. I'm writing this from many years of actual experience in burning propane as an automobile fuel. I've built engines for propane, too, and by virtue of squeezing the intake charge harder (higher compression pressure) I managed to equalize fuel economy between gasoline and propane in my old Pontiac sedan. The same technique can be used in ANY high octane fuel, though. Methane, ethanol, methanol also benefit from increased compression pressure. It has nothing to do with vaporized fuel, and the improvements are incremental, at best. We've been around this tree before. You vanish for awhile, then come back with the same claims for astonishing fuel efficiency based on vaporized gasoline, but you seem to lack understanding of how high pressure, computer-feedback fuel injection works. Internal combustion is a complex, dynamic process for certain, but at the end of all the analysis, there is very little energy remaining in the exhaust gases of a modern engine. robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice The Long Journey New Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Vaporized gasoline engines work as proven totheworldby Shell Oil Company in 1973
I ask you Robert the same questions I have asked before and the answer never metalizes just a lot of BS that I don't know what I'm talking about. 1. Why did Shell Oil get 376 MPGs out of a 1959 Opel back in 1973? Please explain why, if not on account of lightening up the car and vaporizing the fuel as they attested to back than, why did they achieve this type of gas mileage? 2. If modern engines are so damn efficient, then why is there the need for a catalytic converter? Bonus question, why did the exhaust from our 1971 Datsun, we ran on vaporized gasoline smell identical to the exhaust from a propane powered car? Lastly robert luis rabello, Where in the past did we have any conversation having anything to do with this subject? I only posted this info here last week. I don't care how much you think you might know about propane it's pretty obvious that either you do not know anything about vaporized gasoline beyond whatever line you have been fed or Your just a dupe for the oil companies. Answer for me the two questions above. Global Climate change and starvation is here and only getting worse and if your not up to rolling up your sleeves and doing some positive actions to address these problems than stay the hell out of the way and quit you pompous pontificating. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of robert and benita Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 9:04 AM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Vaporized gasoline engines work as proven totheworldby Shell Oil Company in 1973 Mike Pelly wrote: Why does a gallon of liquid propane need to be pressurized at 172 PSI to stay contained in liquid form and gasoline stays liquid at room temperature? Those are its physical properties. Asking this question with respect to internal combustion is a bit like asking why ice floats. It's a matter of density at pressure and temperature. I use the example of propane to illustrate how a vapor mixes so completely with air (unlike a sprayed liquid) There are many reasons why propane and gasoline are different including their densities and length of carbon chains. Despite propane being a vapor at atmospheric pressure and ambient temperatures, there is still a finite amount of energy available in a given volume of liquid propane. It has a LOWER energy density than gasoline, hence, even though it's a vapor and mixes completely with air, propane delivers less energy per liter than gasoline. In fact, because gaseous fuels in general actually displace air in externally-mixed fuel management systems, propane normally delivers about 10% LESS power than gasoline. I'm writing this from many years of actual experience in burning propane as an automobile fuel. I've built engines for propane, too, and by virtue of squeezing the intake charge harder (higher compression pressure) I managed to equalize fuel economy between gasoline and propane in my old Pontiac sedan. The same technique can be used in ANY high octane fuel, though. Methane, ethanol, methanol also benefit from increased compression pressure. It has nothing to do with vaporized fuel, and the improvements are incremental, at best. We've been around this tree before. You vanish for awhile, then come back with the same claims for astonishing fuel efficiency based on vaporized gasoline, but you seem to lack understanding of how high pressure, computer-feedback fuel injection works. Internal combustion is a complex, dynamic process for certain, but at the end of all the analysis, there is very little energy remaining in the exhaust gases of a modern engine. robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice The Long Journey New Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 3060 (20080428) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 3060 (20080428) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel
Re: [Biofuel] Vaporized gasoline engines work as proven totheworldby Shell Oil Company in 1973
On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 10:40 AM, Mike Pelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: quit your pompous pontificating. Can you please send information on the car that you drive, and what you have done to it to improve the efficiency, and what sort of average mpg you are getting from it? Z ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Vaporized gasoline engines work as proven totheworldby Shell Oil Company in 1973
Mike Pelly wrote: I ask you Robert the same questions I have asked before and the answer never metalizes just a lot of BS that I don't know what I'm talking about. 1. Why did Shell Oil get 376 MPGs out of a 1959 Opel back in 1973? Please explain why, if not on account of lightening up the car and vaporizing the fuel as they attested to back than, why did they achieve this type of gas mileage? People have answered that question. You don't want to hear the answer. The test was done in a highly specialized environment, with a car that wouldn't be considered safe on the road. 2. If modern engines are so damn efficient, then why is there the need for a catalytic converter? It's for emissions purposes. The accumulated filth of millions of cars creates pollution problems, but the VAST majority of all the energy in fuel is burned. Bonus question, why did the exhaust from our 1971 Datsun, we ran on vaporized gasoline smell identical to the exhaust from a propane powered car? I don't have a problem with that. It's the outlandish claim that vaporized gasoline can return hundreds of MPG in a REAL car that I disagree with. Lastly robert luis rabello, Where in the past did we have any conversation having anything to do with this subject? I only posted this info here last week. Oh, I'm sure we've talked about this before. I don't care how much you think you might know about propane it's pretty obvious that either you do not know anything about vaporized gasoline beyond whatever line you have been fed or Your just a dupe for the oil companies. Answer for me the two questions above. Why the insults, Mike? I'm writing from actual experience. I've built engines for gasoline AND propane. I've built a fuel injection computer for my truck, and I DO understand how the system works. Why do you dismiss my practical experience in this realm? You might be smarter than I am, and that would be ok. But are you smarter than Sir Harry Ricardo was? Do you have something informative to say to Mr. Carnot? Global Climate change and starvation is here and only getting worse and if your not up to rolling up your sleeves and doing some positive actions to address these problems than stay the hell out of the way and quit you pompous pontificating. We're discussing an issue here. I've heard these outlandish claims for vapor carburation many times before. Part of the reasoning behind it involves preserving a lifestyle where our big, heavy machines take us wherever we want to go, whenever we want. That mentality lies at the root of the larger problems we're trying to address. robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice The Long Journey New Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Vaporized gasoline engines work as proven totheworldby Shell Oil Company in 1973
Sorry robert luis rabello but you are the one who is not reading here. Come back with some serious answers to address my questions so I can take you seriously. I don't have a problem with that. It's the outlandish claim that vaporized gasoline can return hundreds of MPG in a REAL car that I disagree with. I never said this will get hundreds of MPGs in a real car. Those are not my words.. If we end up increasing hundreds of MPGs that would be nice but not something I'd expect. I have always contended that this is something we should be doing to increase the MPGS in real cars. If every car on earth got 10-15 more MPGs from this, That would be significant for me. The 376MPG http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/351903_needle20.html is an illistration on a verified test on a highly altered 'real' car and I'd hope would work as an inspiration for auto engineers and backyard fabricators to make a real positive change in this world like home brewers of biodiesel and plugin hybrid electric folks have been doing for the past 10 years. Unfortunatly it seems we need to show the oil and car companies a few tricks before they ever step up to the plate. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of robert and benita Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 10:13 AM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Vaporized gasoline engines work as proven totheworldby Shell Oil Company in 1973 Mike Pelly wrote: I ask you Robert the same questions I have asked before and the answer never metalizes just a lot of BS that I don't know what I'm talking about. 1. Why did Shell Oil get 376 MPGs out of a 1959 Opel back in 1973? Please explain why, if not on account of lightening up the car and vaporizing the fuel as they attested to back than, why did they achieve this type of gas mileage? People have answered that question. You don't want to hear the answer. The test was done in a highly specialized environment, with a car that wouldn't be considered safe on the road. 2. If modern engines are so damn efficient, then why is there the need for a catalytic converter? It's for emissions purposes. The accumulated filth of millions of cars creates pollution problems, but the VAST majority of all the energy in fuel is burned. Bonus question, why did the exhaust from our 1971 Datsun, we ran on vaporized gasoline smell identical to the exhaust from a propane powered car? I don't have a problem with that. It's the outlandish claim that vaporized gasoline can return hundreds of MPG in a REAL car that I disagree with. Lastly robert luis rabello, Where in the past did we have any conversation having anything to do with this subject? I only posted this info here last week. Oh, I'm sure we've talked about this before. I don't care how much you think you might know about propane it's pretty obvious that either you do not know anything about vaporized gasoline beyond whatever line you have been fed or Your just a dupe for the oil companies. Answer for me the two questions above. Why the insults, Mike? I'm writing from actual experience. I've built engines for gasoline AND propane. I've built a fuel injection computer for my truck, and I DO understand how the system works. Why do you dismiss my practical experience in this realm? You might be smarter than I am, and that would be ok. But are you smarter than Sir Harry Ricardo was? Do you have something informative to say to Mr. Carnot? Global Climate change and starvation is here and only getting worse and if your not up to rolling up your sleeves and doing some positive actions to address these problems than stay the hell out of the way and quit you pompous pontificating. We're discussing an issue here. I've heard these outlandish claims for vapor carburation many times before. Part of the reasoning behind it involves preserving a lifestyle where our big, heavy machines take us wherever we want to go, whenever we want. That mentality lies at the root of the larger problems we're trying to address. robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice The Long Journey New Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 3060 (20080428) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature
Re: [Biofuel] Vaporized gasoline engines work as proven totheworldby Shell Oil Company in 1973
Mike Pelly wrote: Sorry robert luis rabello but you are the one who is not reading here. Come back with some serious answers to address my questions so I can take you seriously. Hmm . . . I don't have a problem with that. It's the outlandish claim that vaporized gasoline can return hundreds of MPG in a REAL car that I disagree with. I never said this will get hundreds of MPGs in a real car. Those are not my words.. If we end up increasing hundreds of MPGs that would be nice but not something I'd expect. I have always contended that this is something we should be doing to increase the MPGS in real cars. If every car on earth got 10-15 more MPGs from this, That would be significant for me. This is what you've written in this forum? 10 - 15 more MPG can be done by making cars lighter and installing smaller engines. Hybrid drives are a step in the right direction, too. My hybrid Camry gets almost double the fuel economy of my Ranger, and both are of similar mass and displacement. robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice The Long Journey New Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Vaporized gasoline engines work as proven totheworldby Shell Oil Company in 1973
Why does a gallon of liquid propane need to be pressurized at 172 PSI to stay contained in liquid form and gasoline stays liquid at room temperature? I use the example of propane to illustrate how a vapor mixes so completely with air (unlike a sprayed liquid) There are many reasons why propane and gasoline are different including their densities and length of carbon chains. Instead of ripping something apart with unqualified information other than what BS you have been fed all these years, come up with a solid reason why Shell Oil was able to get 376MPGs (7 times prius milage) back in 1973. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kirk McLoren Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2008 6:32 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Vaporized gasoline engines work as proven totheworldby Shell Oil Company in 1973 I said propane is completely vaporised. You dont get 200 mpg with a propane conversion. Stop talking rubbish. Mike Pelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Are we talking about the hydrocarbon content on a honda before or after the catalytic converter? There is a big difference. The cat does a great job cleaning up the exhaust by re-burning this fuel after it has gone through engine combustion. This does nothing towards working to push the car down the road. This is a waste of energy! Again study propane, Propane turns from a liquid to a gasious state at 143F degrees Below zero. When it is in a pressurized tank the tank pressure is 172PSI when ambient air temperature is 100F degrees. Gasoline on the other hand does not completely vaporized unless it is heated to 300F to 400F degrees. Where is the disconnect here for you Kirk? Shell Oil was able to prove this technology back in 1973. Have you read my paper or any of the others at wwwByronWine.com or do you just believe whatever party line (lie) your fed? Do your own research and come back with some rebuttals with substance please. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kirk McLoren Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2008 11:26 AM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Vaporized gasoline engines work as proven to theworldby Shell Oil Company in 1973 As you said - study propane. Doesnt get more vaporized than that. Running up to 35 mph and cutting the engine off and coasting to 10 and restarting the engine doesnt impress me either as NO ONE commutes to work that way. Just what do you think the unburned hydrocarbon content of for example a honda engine is? http://news.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/04/14/1911225 Eco-Marathon Team Hits 2,843 mpg But - it has little relevance to everyday life. Carnot had a little bit to say about the reality of fantastic claims. Only so much energy in a gallon - even in a fuel cell which trumps your combustion engine. Kirk Mike Pelly wrote: Modern engines combust quite well?, than why the unburned hydrocarbons out the tailpipe and the need for catalytic converters? And was Shell Oil only blowing a whole lot of smoke back in 1973 when they were able to stretch 376 MPGs out of that 1959 Opel? Sorry Kirk but your going to have to do a better job than that to dispel this one. I know we have been getting fed a whole lot of bunk about this by the oil and auto companies since back 70 years ago when Charles Pogue first made this advancement famous but these are different times we are living in. Lets quit the BS'ing and take all measures we have available to address our Global Climate Change problem. Either attempt to re-enact this experiment yourself or shut up already and quit doing the bidding for the oil companies. It's real get over it. Vaporized gasoline mixes much more completely with air than sprayed liquid gasoline. Heating gasoline sufficiently turns it to a vapor. If you don't believe this than study propane carburation. Same thing just a few hundred degrees difference in properties. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kirk McLoren Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2008 7:12 AM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Vaporized gasoline engines work as proven to theworld by Shell Oil Company in 1973 The level of unburned hydrocarbons in the exhaust tells you beyond a shadow of a doubt whether more perfect combustion can help. Period- the end. No amount of claims and mouse milk can alter this fact - which should be intuitively obvious. Modern engines combust quite well. Kirk John Mullan wrote: How does one vaporize all the different components in today's gasoline? Don't all those additives and stuff complicate the situation? John Mike Pelly wrote: We did tests on Vaporized Gasoline carburation on a datsun/nissan 510 and the gas milage results were not all that impressive. We were not able to do any kind of test on a track or somewhere where we could drive flat and straight on a carefully
Re: [Biofuel] Vaporized gasoline engines work as proven totheworldby Shell Oil Company in 1973
On Sun, Apr 27, 2008 at 9:43 PM, Mike Pelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: come up with a solid reason why Shell Oil was able to get 376MPGs (7 times prius milage) back in 1973. Were they? When I followed that link, I got a one page pdf which only seemed to contain the title page and endmost page of a paper... but it stated that they thought a 50% fuel efficiency improvement was possible -- of which 20% was from engine design changes -- reasonable, but, this is alot different than 376 mpg. Also, byronwine.com includes a bunch of stuff about running engines on water, which seriously hurts their credibility as a purveyor of actual information, unless someone can explain to me how the second law of thermodynamics allows extracting energy from water... even the websites on running your car on water can't get their chemistry right -- calling the mixture of hydrogen (H2) and oxygen (O2) gas generated by electrolysis HHO gas, as if they don't realize the difference between ions and molecules. Not saying that everything on there is bunk just because one thing is, but it doesn't lend credibility to the site. Z ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
