RE: [biofuel] air car
Sorry about that.. i guess it is the medium. I misinterpreted what you were saying. Of course.. this Is kind of silly since the 'car doesnt exist' ha. but if you can just compress the ambient air.. there certainly could be benefits such as not having to deal with pure hydrogen and oxygen. a benefit if you could do it with solar..wind..etc would be that you could do it off the grid. Wind kind of leaves those in the city out, though.. not much free space. Those that do have free space, may not be within range of work.. I think that cities are naturally good at channeling winds.. i wonder why certain places can not use wind. and I havent seen any on buildings.. as to your 'South California Edison', I am pretty happy with my power company.. I think a more local level power can be ok.. but too local that there arent adequate safety measures.. etc. the guys pulling off cat converter equipment to 'save a buck or two' Have a good day. :) Message: 8 Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 12:20:18 -0800 From: Tricia Liu [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: air car It's a follow up on your topic on energy storage. Instead of battery, power generates from Solar or Wind can be transformed to Hydrogen or compressed air for later use. Either for air car, water car or home appliances. Didn't get involved in emmission, but safety will need to be supervised. Hydrogen and pure Oxygen are dangerous! I'd learned this is a group discussion, not that we pick on one particular person or subject. Take it easy, your discussion is interesting and just added some of my comments. Different participants have different styles, that is okay with me! Hope that my style is okay to you!! Normally never address to one particular person in sending comments. Sorry about you felt that I had been pinpointed your talk and that was not the case! And certainly had found out South California Edison is not our mutual friend! Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] air car
In the future, Solar or wind to generate electricity at home. Either to produce Hydrogen or Compressed air. They run not only the cars but your home appliances/lighting and everything else! President Clinton called that decentralized energy policy, no need to depend on big oil or energy companies! Right now, we can not live without the oil and energy companies. All energy production is highly centralized in those big companies, they get to swing the policy! Edison did that in California, and everybody can see how that happened. You pay up or I cut you off power supply! Energy shortage? Friend in Arizona tried to set up a facility to use solar panels to generate power and sell for money. The best price he could find to sell those electricity is 1 cents per watt. And in Southern California, we are paying 11 cents for business and 13 cents for residential. From Edison's self deceiving commercials on TV, they are still claiming they are serving Californian! Other states even offered help to sell electricity from their power supply to California, none taken! Being screwed by your own power company! And still have to keep their services after they had done all these! Spineless human! If Bush's energy department has the same like-minded focus as this discussion group. At least there will have several projects that can work on. To find out the best energy solution, Biddiesel, Hydrogen etc.. But you can see it's not happening and that probably not what the big energy companies want the president to do. Al Gore mentioned that instead of using the momentum gathered after- the 911 attack to urge American to conserve energy or use other alternative energy. They decided to use that momentum to support more military deployment in the Middle East! - Original Message - From: Crabb, David [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 9:13 AM Subject: RE: [biofuel] air car I am sure the transmission loss factor vs gas formulation cost has been beaten to death in other discussions of EVs. But just to make is more simple. assume your Solar panel is sitting on your roof. there wont be too much of a transmission losses. so all day long, you can compress air in a tank at home. when you get home, you can transfer this to your car slowly overnight, adding more if needed overnight cheaply. I suppose you could add a bank of batteries at home, instead of a an air tank. But then you would lose 10% getting the juice into the batteries and 10% getting it out. I would rather have one powerplant with one pollution source.. than have 1,000 guys at home with generators. New pollution control technology only has to happen once.. not 1,000 times. I also wouldnt have to worry abou Jimbos taking pollution controls *off* their generator,.. to save a few dollars. you know it would happen Also, I don't want a generator running in my garage at night..pyew.. nor out back. I certainly dont want my neighbors running them... i wonder how happy people would be happy when one of the muffers starts to go. Man.. now i have to go bother to fill up gas cans again.. i thought that was a reason to buy this stupid air-car in the first place. Of course.. these vehicle.. if existed.. would not be everything to everyone. No current car is now, why do potential alternatives have to be. EV.. etc.. Someone complained what if i have to drive 100 miles or something.. use a second car.. or rent one. If you have to do it every week.. buy a different car. Message: 4 Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 22:54:13 -0500 From: Martin Klingensmith [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Taxed To DEATH - AirCar You need to take into account the efficiency losses: Hydro/Nuclear/solar/wind/etc Electric generator - transmission lines - electric motor - mechanical air compressor - pipes - air motor - mechanical transmission - rubber wheels I don't know how efficient this would be, but I'm guessing below 4% (if my guess makes a difference) It could be made better if you used an internal combustion generator, but you still have a lot of conversions: Crops - oil/alcohol - IC engine - mechanical air compressor ... etc Crops would include energy used to plant and maintain the crop as well. I guess the above process would be about the same with a hydrocarbon fuel. However if you're going to use an IC engine anyway, what's wrong with an IC/electric hybrid? Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address
RE: [biofuel] air car
I am afraid that i don't see what all this has to do with what i said. I was talking about the potential benefits of a car that could run on the energy stored overnight by compressing air. My example was of solar panels on a roof either directly running a compressor. I suppose maybe you are talking about how i prefer to have one power plant running power instead of 1000 people running generators. I am talking about the emmissions end of it. 1000 people running generators because they want to stick it to the power company however evil they are is not a good thing, emissions wise. If you want to run solar, or wind or hydro, thats all good, even run a nice Capstone Turbine for the neighborhood if you all want to... but not 1,000 guys with 300 dollar gensets.. pleeze. ..dont know what an air car has to do with the Mid East.. Message: 7 Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 00:46:16 -0800 From: Tricia Liu [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: air car In the future, Solar or wind to generate electricity at home. Either to produce Hydrogen or Compressed air. They run not only the cars but your home appliances/lighting and everything else! President Clinton called that decentralized energy policy, no need to depend on big oil or energy companies! Right now, we can not live without the oil and energy companies. All energy production is highly centralized in those big companies, they get to swing the policy! Edison did that in California, and everybody can see how that happened. You pay up or I cut you off power supply! Energy shortage? Friend in Arizona tried to set up a facility to use solar panels to generate power and sell for money. The best price he could find to sell those electricity is 1 cents per watt. And in Southern California, we are paying 11 cents for business and 13 cents for residential. From Edison's self deceiving commercials on TV, they are still claiming they are serving Californian! Other states even offered help to sell electricity from their power supply to California, none taken! Being screwed by your own power company! And still have to keep their services after they had done all these! Spineless human! If Bush's energy department has the same like-minded focus as this discussion group. At least there will have several projects that can work on. To find out the best energy solution, Biddiesel, Hydrogen etc.. But you can see it's not happening and that probably not what the big energy companies want the president to do. Al Gore mentioned that instead of using the momentum gathered after- the 911 attack to urge American to conserve energy or use other alternative energy. They decided to use that momentum to support more military deployment in the Middle East! - Original Message - From: Crabb, David [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 9:13 AM Subject: RE: [biofuel] air car I am sure the transmission loss factor vs gas formulation cost has been beaten to death in other discussions of EVs. But just to make is more simple. assume your Solar panel is sitting on your roof. there wont be too much of a transmission losses. so all day long, you can compress air in a tank at home. when you get home, you can transfer this to your car slowly overnight, adding more if needed overnight cheaply. I suppose you could add a bank of batteries at home, instead of a an air tank. But then you would lose 10% getting the juice into the batteries and 10% getting it out. I would rather have one powerplant with one pollution source.. than have 1,000 guys at home with generators. New pollution control technology only has to happen once.. not 1,000 times. I also wouldnt have to worry abou Jimbos taking pollution controls *off* their generator,.. to save a few dollars. you know it would happen Also, I don't want a generator running in my garage at night..pyew.. nor out back. I certainly dont want my neighbors running them... i wonder how happy people would be happy when one of the muffers starts to go. Man.. now i have to go bother to fill up gas cans again.. i thought that was a reason to buy this stupid air-car in the first place. Of course.. these vehicle.. if existed.. would not be everything to everyone. No current car is now, why do potential alternatives have to be. EV.. etc.. Someone complained what if i have to drive 100 miles or something.. use a second car.. or rent one. If you have to do it every week.. buy a different car. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info
Re: [biofuel] air car
It's a follow up on your topic on energy storage. Instead of battery, power generates from Solar or Wind can be transformed to Hydrogen or compressed air for later use. Either for air car, water car or home appliances. Didn't get involved in emmission, but safety will need to be supervised. Hydrogen and pure Oxygen are dangerous! I'd learned this is a group discussion, not that we pick on one particular person or subject. Take it easy, your discussion is interesting and just added some of my comments. Different participants have different styles, that is okay with me! Hope that my style is okay to you!! Normally never address to one particular person in sending comments. Sorry about you felt that I had been pinpointed your talk and that was not the case! And certainly had found out South California Edison is not our mutual friend! - Original Message - From: Crabb, David [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 11:18 AM Subject: RE: [biofuel] air car I am afraid that i don't see what all this has to do with what i said. I was talking about the potential benefits of a car that could run on the energy stored overnight by compressing air. My example was of solar panels on a roof either directly running a compressor. I suppose maybe you are talking about how i prefer to have one power plant running power instead of 1000 people running generators. I am talking about the emmissions end of it. 1000 people running generators because they want to stick it to the power company however evil they are is not a good thing, emissions wise. If you want to run solar, or wind or hydro, thats all good, even run a nice Capstone Turbine for the neighborhood if you all want to... but not 1,000 guys with 300 dollar gensets.. pleeze. ..dont know what an air car has to do with the Mid East.. Message: 7 Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 00:46:16 -0800 From: Tricia Liu [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: air car In the future, Solar or wind to generate electricity at home. Either to produce Hydrogen or Compressed air. They run not only the cars but your home appliances/lighting and everything else! President Clinton called that decentralized energy policy, no need to depend on big oil or energy companies! Right now, we can not live without the oil and energy companies. All energy production is highly centralized in those big companies, they get to swing the policy! Edison did that in California, and everybody can see how that happened. You pay up or I cut you off power supply! Energy shortage? Friend in Arizona tried to set up a facility to use solar panels to generate power and sell for money. The best price he could find to sell those electricity is 1 cents per watt. And in Southern California, we are paying 11 cents for business and 13 cents for residential. From Edison's self deceiving commercials on TV, they are still claiming they are serving Californian! Other states even offered help to sell electricity from their power supply to California, none taken! Being screwed by your own power company! And still have to keep their services after they had done all these! Spineless human! If Bush's energy department has the same like-minded focus as this discussion group. At least there will have several projects that can work on. To find out the best energy solution, Biddiesel, Hydrogen etc.. But you can see it's not happening and that probably not what the big energy companies want the president to do. Al Gore mentioned that instead of using the momentum gathered after- the 911 attack to urge American to conserve energy or use other alternative energy. They decided to use that momentum to support more military deployment in the Middle East! - Original Message - From: Crabb, David [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 9:13 AM Subject: RE: [biofuel] air car I am sure the transmission loss factor vs gas formulation cost has been beaten to death in other discussions of EVs. But just to make is more simple. assume your Solar panel is sitting on your roof. there wont be too much of a transmission losses. so all day long, you can compress air in a tank at home. when you get home, you can transfer this to your car slowly overnight, adding more if needed overnight cheaply. I suppose you could add a bank of batteries at home, instead of a an air tank. But then you would lose 10% getting the juice into the batteries and 10% getting it out. I would rather have one powerplant with one pollution source.. than have 1,000 guys at home with generators. New pollution control technology only has to happen once.. not 1,000 times. I also wouldnt have to worry abou Jimbos taking pollution
RE: [biofuel] air car
I am sure the transmission loss factor vs gas formulation cost has been beaten to death in other discussions of EVs. But just to make is more simple. assume your Solar panel is sitting on your roof. there wont be too much of a transmission losses. so all day long, you can compress air in a tank at home. when you get home, you can transfer this to your car slowly overnight, adding more if needed overnight cheaply. I suppose you could add a bank of batteries at home, instead of a an air tank. But then you would lose 10% getting the juice into the batteries and 10% getting it out. I would rather have one powerplant with one pollution source.. than have 1,000 guys at home with generators. New pollution control technology only has to happen once.. not 1,000 times. I also wouldnt have to worry abou Jimbos taking pollution controls *off* their generator,.. to save a few dollars. you know it would happen Also, I don't want a generator running in my garage at night..pyew.. nor out back. I certainly dont want my neighbors running them... i wonder how happy people would be happy when one of the muffers starts to go. Man.. now i have to go bother to fill up gas cans again.. i thought that was a reason to buy this stupid air-car in the first place. Of course.. these vehicle.. if existed.. would not be everything to everyone. No current car is now, why do potential alternatives have to be. EV.. etc.. Someone complained what if i have to drive 100 miles or something.. use a second car.. or rent one. If you have to do it every week.. buy a different car. Message: 4 Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 22:54:13 -0500 From: Martin Klingensmith [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Taxed To DEATH - AirCar You need to take into account the efficiency losses: Hydro/Nuclear/solar/wind/etc Electric generator - transmission lines - electric motor - mechanical air compressor - pipes - air motor - mechanical transmission - rubber wheels I don't know how efficient this would be, but I'm guessing below 4% (if my guess makes a difference) It could be made better if you used an internal combustion generator, but you still have a lot of conversions: Crops - oil/alcohol - IC engine - mechanical air compressor ... etc Crops would include energy used to plant and maintain the crop as well. I guess the above process would be about the same with a hydrocarbon fuel. However if you're going to use an IC engine anyway, what's wrong with an IC/electric hybrid? Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] air car
Of course.. since they will need to tax this like they will tax you for making your own bio-diesel.. they will effectively be taxing air... ha Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 12:55:42 - . From: Nick Taylor (SMTechnology.com) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Taxed To DEATH $1.67 a GALLON??? You are having a laugh...no actually the British government is having a laugh, we pay that per litre ...and they still won't support biodiesel production. The idea of moving to Denmark seems more attractive every day!!! Sorry...never heard of the Air Car...though it sounds cool. You have to remember that in the UK we are severely behind the times, and I mean SEVERELY. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Air car.
Consider for a moment the possibility of a conventional IC engine powered vehicle that could convert much of the energy wasted in braking (engine and conventional brakes) into compressed air storage that would be in turn used to supercharge the IC engine when again under load thereby increasing cycle efficiency. Small storage requirements -- low cost energy recovery/conversion apparatus. Another form of a hybrid vehicle. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- 4 DVDs Free +sp Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Air car.
What would make the AIR CAR more feasible is to use liquid nitrogen (LN) and have a LN generator at home. Any one know how to make LN cheaply? David Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 13 Sep 2002 13:43:40 -0500, you wrote: Ah, thanks. I guess I should have been more specific. It was a long day... How do they control the air going into the engine and how is the air exhausted? Does it operate like a four cycle engine or 2 cycle? Hard to say. Here is a more-detailed link: http://www.theaircar.com/howitworks.html snipping the old adds Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Sell a Home with Ease! http://us.click.yahoo.com/SrPZMC/kTmEAA/MVfIAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Air car.
Ok. thanks. On Fri, 13 Sep 2002 13:56:23 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hard to say. Here is a more-detailed link: http://www.theaircar.com/howitworks.html GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- 4 DVDs Free +sp Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/MVfIAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Air car.
Hello all participants of air car debate, I think that the technique opens up a range of interesting solutions and will try to mention a few, 1. The major value is not as an energy efficient way of running a car. As such, I agree with several of you, that pointed out its lack of conversion efficiency. 2. Several times on this list, people have pointed out the flaws in looking at single stage or a few stages efficiency. Only a few weeks ago, Keith wrote in an elegant way about this. 3. The value of the process is very large, if you look at is as a combination of conversion and storage technique. Using air and air pressure, seems to be a technique that solves a lot of space and weight issues. The limitation in the conversion back to other forms of usage, have probably taken a large step with development of this engine. 4. Most of renewable sources, like Sun, Wind, Hydro etc. need large storages, to be viable alternatives on their own. Hydrogen that at best have 1-2% efficiency from production to use and in most cases have a negative efficiency, have been argued more on its storage and conversion properties. But if you look at the distribution facilitation, it is both costly and time consuming. Compressed air is easier, less costly, safer and cleaner. 5. Contrary to what somebody said, we have a very large element of electricity production with basically diesel fuel. The reason is the ignorant engineering in the building industry, that generates huge peak demands. Those peak demands are covered by small power plants, driven by oil products. The reason is the short start/stop times that are needed for the generation. A lot of losses are taken on off peak times, because of that the major power plants are idle. The storage technique could have a major place in this equation. Especially on the air conditioning side. 6. One of the arguments for its use in the automotive sector, is the health problems in our cities. It is a compelling argument and I can not find anything wrong in it. Maybe we have negative gains in over all pollution, but the power sources are not located inside the cities and by the dispersion of the pollution, we will have a positive effect on the health. The pollution problem is also easier to improve in a few power plant, than in millions of cars. 7. An often used technique in hydro electric dams, is the pumping back of water to storage dams. This can not be claimed as energy efficient as a process, but is for sure efficient as a whole. The compressed air technique will have similar benefits. As I go on writing this, the ideas of applications flows faster than I can write. It is better to draw a line here, because I think that the case is clear. The value is the compressed air as storage of energy and the engine is a missing link in the conversion chain to use of the compressed air. Hakan wrong in this. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- 4 DVDs Free +sp Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/MVfIAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Air car.
natural gas is a petroleum byproduct. there are many petroleum based power plants on the east coast. more than nuclear and hydro. There is one in NYC even. Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter Discussion Boards: http://www.green-trust.org Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 10:37 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Air car. you are forgetting how much petroleum will have to be burned to compress the air. next .. Fossil Fuels such as coal and natural gas in power plants, but petroleum would seem less likely. Very few electricity producing power plants use petroleum. Hawaii and maybe a few other places. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Plan to Sell a Home? http://us.click.yahoo.com/J2SnNA/y.lEAA/MVfIAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Air car.
Thanks for some interesting ideas. I have been debating with someone in the global energy options about vehicles powered by Liquid Nitrogen and it has also raised some of these issues. While that type of power concept does not appear to be nearly as well-developed, I think that it could be included as being of somewhat similar value, particularly since there is a chance that it could store even more energy than compressed air, per unit volume or weight or mass. I agree with some of the things you point out, including that we needn't necessariliy confine our considerations to vehicles. Even if compressed air vehicles have problematic range, the more-basic consideration is: is it a viable and useful way to store energy or not? MM Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Plan to Sell a Home? http://us.click.yahoo.com/J2SnNA/y.lEAA/MVfIAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Air car.
2. Several times on this list, people have pointed out the flaws in looking at single stage or a few stages efficiency. Only a few weeks ago, Keith wrote in an elegant way about this. Do you happen to recall what thread this was in? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- 4 DVDs Free +sp Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/MVfIAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Air car.
I think the process pencils better if you liquify the nitrogen rather than compress it. This is even more so for refrigerated transport where the refrigerator is useful load. In the Southwest even air conditioning is a large load. Kirk -Original Message- From: Hakan Falk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 4:38 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Air car. Hello all participants of air car debate, I think that the technique opens up a range of interesting solutions and will try to mention a few, 1. The major value is not as an energy efficient way of running a car. As such, I agree with several of you, that pointed out its lack of conversion efficiency. 2. Several times on this list, people have pointed out the flaws in looking at single stage or a few stages efficiency. Only a few weeks ago, Keith wrote in an elegant way about this. 3. The value of the process is very large, if you look at is as a combination of conversion and storage technique. Using air and air pressure, seems to be a technique that solves a lot of space and weight issues. The limitation in the conversion back to other forms of usage, have probably taken a large step with development of this engine. 4. Most of renewable sources, like Sun, Wind, Hydro etc. need large storages, to be viable alternatives on their own. Hydrogen that at best have 1-2% efficiency from production to use and in most cases have a negative efficiency, have been argued more on its storage and conversion properties. But if you look at the distribution facilitation, it is both costly and time consuming. Compressed air is easier, less costly, safer and cleaner. 5. Contrary to what somebody said, we have a very large element of electricity production with basically diesel fuel. The reason is the ignorant engineering in the building industry, that generates huge peak demands. Those peak demands are covered by small power plants, driven by oil products. The reason is the short start/stop times that are needed for the generation. A lot of losses are taken on off peak times, because of that the major power plants are idle. The storage technique could have a major place in this equation. Especially on the air conditioning side. 6. One of the arguments for its use in the automotive sector, is the health problems in our cities. It is a compelling argument and I can not find anything wrong in it. Maybe we have negative gains in over all pollution, but the power sources are not located inside the cities and by the dispersion of the pollution, we will have a positive effect on the health. The pollution problem is also easier to improve in a few power plant, than in millions of cars. 7. An often used technique in hydro electric dams, is the pumping back of water to storage dams. This can not be claimed as energy efficient as a process, but is for sure efficient as a whole. The compressed air technique will have similar benefits. As I go on writing this, the ideas of applications flows faster than I can write. It is better to draw a line here, because I think that the case is clear. The value is the compressed air as storage of energy and the engine is a missing link in the conversion chain to use of the compressed air. Hakan wrong in this. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.384 / Virus Database: 216 - Release Date: 8/21/2002 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Looking for a more powerful website? Try GeoCities for $8.95 per month. Register your domain name (http://your-name.com). More storage! No ads! http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info http://us.click.yahoo.com/aHOo4D/KJoEAA/MVfIAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Air car.
Ah, thanks. I guess I should have been more specific. It was a long day... How do they control the air going into the engine and how is the air exhausted? Does it operate like a four cycle engine or 2 cycle? On Thu, 12 Sep 2002 15:13:39 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Can anyone tell me how air powered cars work? http://www.theaircar.com/UKPressrelease.html#Eng How does it work? 90m3 of compressed air is stored in fibre tanks. The expansion of this air pushes the pistons and creates movement. The atmospheric temperature is used to re-heat the engine and increase the road coverage. The air conditioning system makes use of the expelled cold air. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- 4 DVDs Free +sp Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/MVfIAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Air car.
On Fri, 13 Sep 2002 13:43:40 -0500, you wrote: Ah, thanks. I guess I should have been more specific. It was a long day... How do they control the air going into the engine and how is the air exhausted? Does it operate like a four cycle engine or 2 cycle? Hard to say. Here is a more-detailed link: http://www.theaircar.com/howitworks.html Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Sell a Home with Ease! http://us.click.yahoo.com/SrPZMC/kTmEAA/MVfIAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Air car.
they don't :-) technically, a compressed tank of air runs a air motor (steam engine) connected to the wheels. unfortunately, you can't carry enough air for a reasonable range, and you waste much more energy compressing the air, than you get back from it. for further info, see http://www.howstuffworks.com/question133.htm Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter Discussion Boards: http://www.green-trust.org Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2002 3:21 PM Subject: [biofuel] Air car. Can anyone tell me how air powered cars work? GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- 4 DVDs Free +sp Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/MVfIAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Air car.
I got a bridge to sell you .. Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter Discussion Boards: http://www.green-trust.org Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2002 6:13 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Air car. Can anyone tell me how air powered cars work? http://www.theaircar.com/UKPressrelease.html#Eng How does it work? 90m3 of compressed air is stored in fibre tanks. The expansion of this air pushes the pistons and creates movement. The atmospheric temperature is used to re-heat the engine and increase the road coverage. The air conditioning system makes use of the expelled cold air. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- 4 DVDs Free +sp Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/MVfIAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Air car.
like a steam engine. 4 cycle doesn't make sense if there is no combustion. Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter Discussion Boards: http://www.green-trust.org Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 2:43 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Air car. Ah, thanks. I guess I should have been more specific. It was a long day... How do they control the air going into the engine and how is the air exhausted? Does it operate like a four cycle engine or 2 cycle? On Thu, 12 Sep 2002 15:13:39 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Can anyone tell me how air powered cars work? http://www.theaircar.com/UKPressrelease.html#Eng How does it work? 90m3 of compressed air is stored in fibre tanks. The expansion of this air pushes the pistons and creates movement. The atmospheric temperature is used to re-heat the engine and increase the road coverage. The air conditioning system makes use of the expelled cold air. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- 4 DVDs Free +sp Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/MVfIAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Air car.
looks like they are using a 4 cycle design. sort of a combustion power stroke, kinda. weird. Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter Discussion Boards: http://www.green-trust.org Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 4:56 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Air car. On Fri, 13 Sep 2002 13:43:40 -0500, you wrote: Ah, thanks. I guess I should have been more specific. It was a long day... How do they control the air going into the engine and how is the air exhausted? Does it operate like a four cycle engine or 2 cycle? Hard to say. Here is a more-detailed link: http://www.theaircar.com/howitworks.html Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- 4 DVDs Free +sp Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/MVfIAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Air car.
I am going to continue to watch their efforts with an open mind. I am interested to find out what energy efficiency they are able to realize in converting the air into motion. I am also interested to learn the energy efficiency of compression. From their web page it would appear that there is more than one compression scheme (one for home, one for on the road, though I'm not quite sure what this means). There is usually one or more pretty severe drawback to each proposed competitor for the IC engine, and I am aware that range is a drawback of this proposed car (as it is for batteries). But I want to see what they have to say. The extremist environmentalist case, such as where air really is virtually unbreathable in certain cities, is one that can be made in some cities. From what I understand, for example, Mexico City really does get very bad when it comes to air pollution, to the point where some vehicles can only be legally operated on alternate days, and in the face of such a problem it is perhaps not inappropriate to consider such engineering compromises as air cars. Maybe that law is no longer in place? This is not to say (of course) that other compromise sollutions, such as battery-powered vehicles, increased electric-train use, etc. etc. are not also worth considering. they don't :-) technically, a compressed tank of air runs a air motor (steam engine) connected to the wheels. unfortunately, you can't carry enough air for a reasonable range, and you waste much more energy compressing the air, than you get back from it. for further info, see http://www.howstuffworks.com/question133.htm Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- 4 DVDs Free +sp Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/MVfIAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Air car.
Hence the 5# bag of #13 rubberbands in the glove box... :-) Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Steve Spence [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 7:42 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Air car. they don't :-) technically, a compressed tank of air runs a air motor (steam engine) connected to the wheels. unfortunately, you can't carry enough air for a reasonable range, and you waste much more energy compressing the air, than you get back from it. for further info, see http://www.howstuffworks.com/question133.htm Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter Discussion Boards: http://www.green-trust.org Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2002 3:21 PM Subject: [biofuel] Air car. Can anyone tell me how air powered cars work? GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- 4 DVDs Free +sp Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/MVfIAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Air car.
PREThe air car makes sense, I don't know much but I know that air under pressure could ignite it's energy. The only problem is that it takes a large quantity of air for such a small amount of energy.I' heard about ten years ago that an engine can run on air alone so this is not something new. Imagine how many people who work for petroleum companies would be unemployed. Remember this country is built on what is consumed on what you save. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- 4 DVDs Free +sp Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/MVfIAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Air car.
you are forgetting how much petroleum will have to be burned to compress the air. next .. Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter Discussion Boards: http://www.green-trust.org Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 9:37 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Air car. PREThe air car makes sense, I don't know much but I know that air under pressure could ignite it's energy. The only problem is that it takes a large quantity of air for such a small amount of energy.I' heard about ten years ago that an engine can run on air alone so this is not something new. Imagine how many people who work for petroleum companies would be unemployed. Remember this country is built on what is consumed on what you save. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Looking for a more powerful website? Try GeoCities for $8.95 per month. Register your domain name (http://your-name.com). More storage! No ads! http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info http://us.click.yahoo.com/aHOo4D/KJoEAA/MVfIAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Air car.
It makes sense until you do an energy analysis. Efficient compression requires the temperature stay the same. In practice this is very much NOT the case and thus in the real world losses are huge. Kirk -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 7:38 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Air car. PREThe air car makes sense, I don't know much but I know that air under pressure could ignite it's energy. The only problem is that it takes a large quantity of air for such a small amount of energy.I' heard about ten years ago that an engine can run on air alone so this is not something new. Imagine how many people who work for petroleum companies would be unemployed. Remember this country is built on what is consumed on what you save. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Home Selling? Try Us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/QrPZMC/iTmEAA/MVfIAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Air car.
you are forgetting how much petroleum will have to be burned to compress the air. next .. Fossil Fuels such as coal and natural gas in power plants, but petroleum would seem less likely. Very few electricity producing power plants use petroleum. Hawaii and maybe a few other places. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- 4 DVDs Free +sp Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/MVfIAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Air car.
Can anyone tell me how air powered cars work? http://www.theaircar.com/UKPressrelease.html#Eng How does it work? 90m3 of compressed air is stored in fibre tanks. The expansion of this air pushes the pistons and creates movement. The atmospheric temperature is used to re-heat the engine and increase the road coverage. The air conditioning system makes use of the expelled cold air. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Sell a Home for Top $ http://us.click.yahoo.com/RrPZMC/jTmEAA/MVfIAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] air car primer
Hi Dick, Pedro and All, Pedro, thanks for the URL. The tanks are huge and wouldn't be practical to change though with a cooling system, more weight, they could be filled fairly fast, 10 minutes from very large storage tanks at even higher pressures. To quote their figures it takes 3.5 hours at 5kw to recharge them from their compressor. This is 17.5 Kw. How much does your electricity cost? Here it's about $.10 a Kwhr. Also in the last 1/3 of the tank power will go way down to nothing at 1/8 tank pressure, under 400 lbs, because of the way the strange motor works. At 50 mph or stop and go, hills at 35 mph, range would be about 20 miles. So that's $1.75 for 20 miles realilisticly is $.0875 a mile for fuel. Quite high vs $.01 to .02 for EV's. That's assuming he didn't use selective, unlikely satistics like in the other stats he uses in other places. For instance he does max range at 20 km/hr. Not very practical. I can build an EV to beat these easily, cheaply. In the same car using EV tech would weigh the same or less. To claim 300km at 20 kmhr to prove it will run for 10 hours says it all. --- Dick Carlstein [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: negre's aircar is an urban, repeat, urban vehicle. it is not designed or meant to travel on i-95 from boston to ny. it is meant to travel within an urban environment, moving driver plus four passengers. it uses 70 % of the road space, and costs 25 % of what the selectra costs. it weighs 700 + pounds less than the selectra. While this is true the Selectra will go 400 plus miles at these speeds, 35 mph. I would not want to be in any kind of crash in the air car because you will be history from it's bad space design. That doesn't include the problems of the dangers of the huge tanks that have NO crash, crush space. Even crashing into a small, 2000 lb steel car at 25 mph would be disasterous. The composite EV I'm building will be 10 times as safe at 300 lbs less including batts. Of course it's only 2+2 but still. Another problem is stabilty if you put more than the driver and even with just the driver it will roll faster than a Ford Explorer. Loaded to what the designer says it will carry it will be dangerous. It's called Center of Gravity. Another thing is the exhauts is - 30C. That's a hell of a lot of heat lost which cost money, eff. with a full charge of air the range varies between 62 and 186 miles, depending on how fast, or uphill, or heavy, you travel. At 20 kmhr , 15 mph that range is a joke. Expolating it the 62 mile range would be at 35 mph on flat with steady speed, again a joke. A good EV will beat the crap out of that. My EV can get 250 miles+ with golf cart batteries at 35 mph. it can re-charge to 100 % in less than three minutes, which neither the solectra, or any other electric car for that matter, can do. (100 %, not 80 %) True but for less cost and weight than the onboard compressor you could have an APU to charge while you drive at 1/3 the energy cost of the air car. 80% charge in 15 minutes is good enough for me. Ni-cads can go 100% in 20 minutes now. it is an alternative, not a magic bullet. just as the selectra, or the think, are alternatives. But comparitively not a not very good one. A 1909 Baker Electric will beat the pants off the aircar in range at the same speeds. The car companies seem to want EV's to fail and are making it happen. Here in the US there are thousands of people converting gas cars to electric that are very sucessful, why can't the car companies? the aircar is 100 % privately funded, and has no direct or indirect connection to any car manufacturer. And I think now that I've seen the website I know why, it's I believe a scam. Why else would they use such unrealistic satistics. If the truth came out no investors would bite. and the more the market knows about alternatives, the wiser the choice it can make. But unless you are technical you wouldn't know how bad the air car is. As a car designer it's easy for me. berating somebody's effort, or ideas, just because they don't coincide with yours, is not my idea of progress. and using information out of context -- as when comparing apples and pears -- is like cheating at solitaire. imho. It was the closest thing I could find. Other than being 25% heavier but proporionate it is a good comparision even with lead batteries it beats the pants off the air car. Cost in production wouldn't be that different considering the greatly higher performance. It also has the benifit of being independently tested, something I didn't see on the website of the air car. . I would love to see it succeed but I don't see it happening. You can't change phyics. jerry dycus '...or close up the wall with our english dead...' (again, ws) ? cheers, dick.
Re: [biofuel] air car missconceptions, you got that right:
Hi Dick and All, --- Dick Carlstein [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: the air car is presently manufactured in france. it is a thoroughly road tested vehicle. there is one us franchise already, so local non-believers will soon be able to stand corrected. Do you have an URL for it? How many have been built? it is an urban car. lightweight, agile, easy to fix/repair, crashworthy tested. an entry level urban car, low priced, and versatile (there are delivery van/pick-up/taxi/passenger car versions). What is it's range? Who is using it besides the factory? Who verified the performance? and it is not the 'ultimate' solution. no vehicle is. mtbf, service requirements, topography, user profile, mission profile, opportunity cost, operating cost, are just a few of the variables that should be taken into account when comparing vehicles. as to the ev/air car non-controversy, i go back to my initial statement: we should compare energy densities, and more precisely weight/energy densities. someone posted that rolling resistance was only influential to 25 mph. i would hazard that most urban situations will be well within that envelope. EV's can get over 230 plus mile range verified in an EV traveling on I-95 at 75 mph between Boston and NY. This EV only weighs 2300 lbs, carries 4 passengers and a top speed regulated to 85 mph. Selectra Sunrise is it's make, model. Is that good enough density for you? Can an air powered car do it? What would an air car with these ratings weigh? Could it even be built? With air cars energy/ volume would be the problem too. What is it? The other person was talking about long range. If you only need a 5 mile range air may work. Not good for most people. The one's built in the US were really bad in these points. Some barely went 1 mile and they froze up. Waiting for verifiable facts, I have mine, waiting for yours, jerry dycus once more onto the breach, my dear friends, once more.(ws) cheers, dick __ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Small business owners... Tell us what you think! http://us.click.yahoo.com/vO1FAB/txzCAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
