Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?
Yes, that is the diesel syndrome put very clearly. Highly saturated - good ignitition properties but crystallizes at rather high temperatures. Highly unsaturated - worse ignitition properties but crystallizes at lower temperatures. Since palm oil is a common frying oil, it is the raw material for BD production, but as WVO( very common in the UK, I think). Jan Warnqvist AGERATEC AB [EMAIL PROTECTED] + 46 554 201 89 +46 70 499 38 45 - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 9:59 PM Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making? Jan, That is exactly the oil I have in mind. From what I have read it produces the greatest amount of oil per hectare. Highly saturated is good news. Must be lots of folks making Bio D from this material, once used. in Europe, yes? No - highly saturated might be good news as far as drying is concerned, but it also means a high cloud point. CHECK THE ARCHIVES! There's TONS of stuff about palm oil in the archives! And/or Journey to Forever: Iodine Values -- High Iodine Values -- Talking about the weather http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield.html#iodine Keith Thanks, Tom -Original Message- From: Jan Warnqvist To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 2/04/05 6:41 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making? Hello Tom. Are you referring to palm oil ? This is a highly saturated oil common in Europe as frying oil. The oil is imported from Malaysia. Is it this one ? Bst rgrds Jan Warnqvist AGERATEC AB [EMAIL PROTECTED] + 46 554 201 89 +46 70 499 38 45 - Original Message - From: Tom Irwin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 11:57 PM Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making? Hi All, Any information like this on oil from palm trees? I«m not a fan of soybean because of Monsanto. Thanks, Tom Irwin ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?
Thank you for passing on the kind words. I am also thankful for the information sharing on this list from you and many others. Rachel On Mar 31, 2005, at 12:28 PM, Keith Addison wrote: Hello Rachel Hello Keith biofuel list. I too have requested a more detailed explanation for the information we learned at last year's Elsbett workshop in North Carolina. I sent off this question : What is the main reason Elsbett suggests not using soybean oil as a fuel- Is it due to its high iodine number? Or is it just due to soybean oil's negative effect on lubrication oil? Exactly the right question, good for you. When I receive an answer I will post to the list. Thankyou, please do. By the way, I didn't include it because it was personal, but I'm sure Alexander won't mind. He also said this: I am really thankful to Rachel for her information work. She is the most serious worker I met in the US SVO-community. I hope I can continue the work with her during the next workshops there. :-) Just so you know. Regards Keith Thanks, Rachel Burton Piedmont Biofuels www.biofuels.coop On Mar 30, 2005, at 1:32 PM, Keith Addison wrote: Hello Stephan, Jan and all I asked Elsbett's Alexander Noack for some comment on what he was quoted as saying about soy oil, and got a very brief response from him: Hi Keith, this all is nearly correct, but only for direct injection engines. Mit freundlichen Gr§en / Best regards Alexander Noack ELSBETT Technologie GmbH Weissenburger Stra§e 15 D-91177 Thalmaessing Internet: www.elsbett.com e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] phone: +49 (0)9173 77940 Fax: +49 (0)9173 77942 This was the quote in question: Soybean oil is bad. Whether it is straight vegetable oil or soybean based biodiesel. It is a no-go in diesel engines. Why? In diesel engines you have slight mixing between fuel and lubricating oil. There is a fuel property in soybean oil that makes it reactive when in contact with engine lubricating oil. It supposedly has a polymerizing action with the engine oil, which is detrimental to the life of your lubricating system. What they do in Europe is use a vegetable-based lubricating oil for the engine to prevent any problems with fuel-lubricating oil intimacy. What else? They do not use soybean oil; They use rape seed also known as canola. Best wishes Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?
Hi All, Any information like this on oil from palm trees? I«m not a fan of soybean because of Monsanto. Thanks, Tom Irwin -Original Message- From: Jan Warnqvist To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 1/04/05 5:39 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making? Hello Keith and thank you for your input. I agree with you, blending an oil with a high IV with one with a lower, should produce an average IV. But in some course literature I read some time ago, it said that oil spill from rape seed oil will leave you two months to wipe it up before it polymerizes, soy bean oil will leave you two weeks, and linseed oil two days. From this way of reasoning one can conclude, when comparing the average IV values of each oil, that blending rape seed oil with llinseed oil to an average IV value of soybean oil, will produce an oil with similar polymerization properties as soybean oil. And further- if producing of biodiesel out of high IV oils, will lower the fatty acids« ability to polymerize one can conclude that the first step of polmerization takes place within the triglyceride molecule, possibly with bridges of oxygen between the double bonds of different fatty acids. In methyl ester the fatty acids with the right will to polymerize have some difficulties finding each other and build bridges. Give me some input on this way of explanation ,Keith ! Best regards Jan Jan Warnqvist AGERATEC AB [EMAIL PROTECTED] + 46 554 201 89 +46 70 499 38 45 - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 7:28 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making? Hello DB and all Anyone making bio-diesel should be concerned with the IV of the oil and the polymerzation of the engine. After a careful reading of the australian report WVO as a Diesel replacement fuel it is obvious that they are concerned with it's use as straight veggy oil and Not so much Bio-diesel.( I would be concerned too) Here is a direct quote from that report. Trans esterifying triglyceride oils and fats with monohydric alcohols to form biodiesel largly eliminates the tendency of the oils and fats to polymerization and auto-oxidation.. The base crop for european biodiesel being rapeseed with a IV of 98 is a reasonable goal to acheve. Most of my stock is soy oil and much of it is hydrogenated. I also get cottonseed and peanut oil along with canola (rapeseed) I no longer use straight soy oil and try to make a blend. In the past when I only had soy oil based biodiesel I would only run BD50. I an no longer worried about the IV of the oil and if you are then just run BD50.Drive down the road Happy...DB ..PS. I have been making biodiesel since '02 and have made 1000's of gallons with zero problems. I agree, and thankyou, but I'm not sure I follow the logic of your solution, attractive though it is. Does an IV value average out when you blend different oils? Other things will, of course, like say FFA levels, you'll end up with an average and that's that. But in a blend with biodiesel made from a high IV oil with biodiesel made from lower IV oils, while the proportion of high IV oil will be lower, what's to stop it oxidising and polymerising just the same? Blending it doesn't change its makeup. I'm not sure what effect blending it with petrodiesel would have, but that wouldn't change its makeup either, it still has its double bonds to be broken down and polymerise. All you'd get is proportionately less polymerisation, no? So it'll take longer to gunge up the engine. That doesn't solve the problem, just mitigates it. Sorry, I don't know if this is right or not, just trying to be logical - maybe it doesn't work like that, but I'd like to know. Regards Keith - Original Message - From: TLC Orchids and Such [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 4:37 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?] Where can we get the veg-based motor oil? Can better oil filtering help with this problem? Racor has a motor oil filter used in race cars. - Original Message - From: stephan torak [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; stephan torak [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 5:45 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?] Thanks for the follow up, Keith. I have since spent many hours researching the issue and have found some relevant facts here: www.blt.bmlf.gv.at/vero/veroeff/0100_Technical_performance_of_methyl_e sthe rs _e.pdf #www.blt.bmlf.gv.atveroveroeff0100_Tec Keith Addison wrote: Hello Stephan, Jan and all I asked Elsbett's Alexander Noack for some comment on what he was quoted as saying about soy oil, and got a very brief response from him: Hi Keith, this all is nearly correct, but only for direct injection engines
Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?
Thankyou! This was the point I was trying to make: ... you will reduce polymerization. But not eliminate it. ... the time to reach a specified degree of polymerization will be extended by dilution. But it still won't be eliminated. Thanks again. Best wishes Keith Howdy Kieth and Jan At the risk of looking foolish as I am an organic chemist, but don't have much experience with polymer chemistry- here goes Polymerization is a molecule molecule reaction. A compound with double carbon carbon bond is particularly susceptible free radical oxidation. Let's call them U. Compounds without carbon carbon double bounds are relatively unreactive. We will call these S. Oxygen will activate one molecule, U, but for polymerization to occur, the activated molecule must encounter another U, then the now covalently bonded pair, must encounter another U, and so on. Collisions of activated U with S don't result in a reaction. It seems to me that if you dilute U with S, that you will reduce polymerization. Or how about this. An activated molecule has only a finite amount of time to react. If an activated molecule U bumps into another U then chain growth continues. But if activated U bumps into S, no reaction occurs, other than U reacting internally, which also stops chain growth. Polymer chemists can modulate the number of molecules in a chain (chain length) by addition of non polymerizing stuff. Being a right brain guy, this discussion is made more difficult, as I can't draw all the pictures which exemplify the points I am trying to make. :( The long and short of it (no pun intended) chain length of polymers will be reduced by dilution of biodiesel blended from high IV oils with low IV oils. Put another way, the time to reach a specified degree of polymerization will be extended by dilution. Keith Addison wrote: Hello Keith and thank you for your input. I agree with you, blending an oil with a high IV with one with a lower, should produce an average IV. -- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?
Any information like this on oil from palm trees? I can see it's useless telling you this, but the archives is full of it. Keith I«m not a fan of soybean because of Monsanto. Thanks, Tom Irwin -Original Message- From: Jan Warnqvist To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 1/04/05 5:39 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making? Hello Keith and thank you for your input. I agree with you, blending an oil snip ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?
Hello Tom. Are you referring to palm oil ? This is a highly saturated oil common in Europe as frying oil. The oil is imported from Malaysia. Is it this one ? Bst rgrds Jan Warnqvist AGERATEC AB [EMAIL PROTECTED] + 46 554 201 89 +46 70 499 38 45 - Original Message - From: Tom Irwin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 11:57 PM Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making? Hi All, Any information like this on oil from palm trees? I«m not a fan of soybean because of Monsanto. Thanks, Tom Irwin -Original Message- From: Jan Warnqvist To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 1/04/05 5:39 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making? Hello Keith and thank you for your input. I agree with you, blending an oil with a high IV with one with a lower, should produce an average IV. But in some course literature I read some time ago, it said that oil spill from rape seed oil will leave you two months to wipe it up before it polymerizes, soy bean oil will leave you two weeks, and linseed oil two days. From this way of reasoning one can conclude, when comparing the average IV values of each oil, that blending rape seed oil with llinseed oil to an average IV value of soybean oil, will produce an oil with similar polymerization properties as soybean oil. And further- if producing of biodiesel out of high IV oils, will lower the fatty acids« ability to polymerize one can conclude that the first step of polmerization takes place within the triglyceride molecule, possibly with bridges of oxygen between the double bonds of different fatty acids. In methyl ester the fatty acids with the right will to polymerize have some difficulties finding each other and build bridges. Give me some input on this way of explanation ,Keith ! Best regards Jan Jan Warnqvist AGERATEC AB [EMAIL PROTECTED] + 46 554 201 89 +46 70 499 38 45 - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 7:28 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making? Hello DB and all Anyone making bio-diesel should be concerned with the IV of the oil and the polymerzation of the engine. After a careful reading of the australian report WVO as a Diesel replacement fuel it is obvious that they are concerned with it's use as straight veggy oil and Not so much Bio-diesel.( I would be concerned too) Here is a direct quote from that report. Trans esterifying triglyceride oils and fats with monohydric alcohols to form biodiesel largly eliminates the tendency of the oils and fats to polymerization and auto-oxidation.. The base crop for european biodiesel being rapeseed with a IV of 98 is a reasonable goal to acheve. Most of my stock is soy oil and much of it is hydrogenated. I also get cottonseed and peanut oil along with canola (rapeseed) I no longer use straight soy oil and try to make a blend. In the past when I only had soy oil based biodiesel I would only run BD50. I an no longer worried about the IV of the oil and if you are then just run BD50.Drive down the road Happy...DB ..PS. I have been making biodiesel since '02 and have made 1000's of gallons with zero problems. I agree, and thankyou, but I'm not sure I follow the logic of your solution, attractive though it is. Does an IV value average out when you blend different oils? Other things will, of course, like say FFA levels, you'll end up with an average and that's that. But in a blend with biodiesel made from a high IV oil with biodiesel made from lower IV oils, while the proportion of high IV oil will be lower, what's to stop it oxidising and polymerising just the same? Blending it doesn't change its makeup. I'm not sure what effect blending it with petrodiesel would have, but that wouldn't change its makeup either, it still has its double bonds to be broken down and polymerise. All you'd get is proportionately less polymerisation, no? So it'll take longer to gunge up the engine. That doesn't solve the problem, just mitigates it. Sorry, I don't know if this is right or not, just trying to be logical - maybe it doesn't work like that, but I'd like to know. Regards Keith - Original Message - From: TLC Orchids and Such [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 4:37 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?] Where can we get the veg-based motor oil? Can better oil filtering help with this problem? Racor has a motor oil filter used in race cars. - Original Message - From: stephan torak [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; stephan torak [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 5:45 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?] Thanks for the follow up, Keith. I have since spent many hours researching the issue and have found some
Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?
Hello TLC. The main idea with hydrogenation is to alter the IV value of an oil. The answer is yes. Jan Warnqvist AGERATEC AB [EMAIL PROTECTED] + 46 554 201 89 +46 70 499 38 45 - Original Message - From: TLC Orchids and Such [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 5:13 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making? Hydrogenated canola has an IV of around 65 while non hydrogenated has an IV of around 112. Does anyone know if the IV in soybean (131) safflower (145) hemp (165) or sunflower (133) are altered in any way by the hydrogenation process? - Original Message - From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 3:24 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making? Howdy Kieth and Jan At the risk of looking foolish as I am an organic chemist, but don't have much experience with polymer chemistry- here goes Polymerization is a molecule molecule reaction. A compound with double carbon carbon bond is particularly susceptible free radical oxidation. Let's call them U. Compounds without carbon carbon double bounds are relatively unreactive. We will call these S. Oxygen will activate one molecule, U, but for polymerization to occur, the activated molecule must encounter another U, then the now covalently bonded pair, must encounter another U, and so on. Collisions of activated U with S don't result in a reaction. It seems to me that if you dilute U with S, that you will reduce polymerization. Or how about this. An activated molecule has only a finite amount of time to react. If an activated molecule U bumps into another U then chain growth continues. But if activated U bumps into S, no reaction occurs, other than U reacting internally, which also stops chain growth. Polymer chemists can modulate the number of molecules in a chain (chain length) by addition of non polymerizing stuff. Being a right brain guy, this discussion is made more difficult, as I can't draw all the pictures which exemplify the points I am trying to make. :( The long and short of it (no pun intended) chain length of polymers will be reduced by dilution of biodiesel blended from high IV oils with low IV oils. Put another way, the time to reach a specified degree of polymerization will be extended by dilution. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?
Hi Bob, I like the us and ss for those uninitiated. But my question is at high temperature, like that found near or in a diesel engine, will the us be able to find those other us more easily and thus have a polymerization reaction anyway? Tom -Original Message- From: bob allen To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 1/04/05 17:24 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making? Howdy Kieth and Jan At the risk of looking foolish as I am an organic chemist, but don't have much experience with polymer chemistry- here goes Polymerization is a molecule molecule reaction. A compound with double carbon carbon bond is particularly susceptible free radical oxidation. Let's call them U. Compounds without carbon carbon double bounds are relatively unreactive. We will call these S. Oxygen will activate one molecule, U, but for polymerization to occur, the activated molecule must encounter another U, then the now covalently bonded pair, must encounter another U, and so on. Collisions of activated U with S don't result in a reaction. It seems to me that if you dilute U with S, that you will reduce polymerization. Or how about this. An activated molecule has only a finite amount of time to react. If an activated molecule U bumps into another U then chain growth continues. But if activated U bumps into S, no reaction occurs, other than U reacting internally, which also stops chain growth. Polymer chemists can modulate the number of molecules in a chain (chain length) by addition of non polymerizing stuff. Being a right brain guy, this discussion is made more difficult, as I can't draw all the pictures which exemplify the points I am trying to make. :( The long and short of it (no pun intended) chain length of polymers will be reduced by dilution of biodiesel blended from high IV oils with low IV oils. Put another way, the time to reach a specified degree of polymerization will be extended by dilution. Keith Addison wrote: Hello Keith and thank you for your input. I agree with you, blending an oil with a high IV with one with a lower, should produce an average IV. -- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves Richard Feynman --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?
Hi you fine people I read a lot about IV and have not been able to figure out what it is. I'm new to all this. Would someone PLEASE help me out here? Thanks Roy TLC Orchids and Such [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hydrogenated canola has an IV of around 65 while non hydrogenated has an IV of around 112. Does anyone know if the IV in soybean (131) safflower (145) hemp (165) or sunflower (133) are altered in any way by the hydrogenation process? - Original Message - From: bob allen To: Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 3:24 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making? Howdy Kieth and Jan At the risk of looking foolish as I am an organic chemist, but don't have much experience with polymer chemistry- here goes Polymerization is a molecule molecule reaction. A compound with double carbon carbon bond is particularly susceptible free radical oxidation. Let's call them U. Compounds without carbon carbon double bounds are relatively unreactive. We will call these S. Oxygen will activate one molecule, U, but for polymerization to occur, the activated molecule must encounter another U, then the now covalently bonded pair, must encounter another U, and so on. Collisions of activated U with S don't result in a reaction. It seems to me that if you dilute U with S, that you will reduce polymerization. Or how about this. An activated molecule has only a finite amount of time to react. If an activated molecule U bumps into another U then chain growth continues. But if activated U bumps into S, no reaction occurs, other than U reacting internally, which also stops chain growth. Polymer chemists can modulate the number of molecules in a chain (chain length) by addition of non polymerizing stuff. Being a right brain guy, this discussion is made more difficult, as I can't draw all the pictures which exemplify the points I am trying to make. :( The long and short of it (no pun intended) chain length of polymers will be reduced by dilution of biodiesel blended from high IV oils with low IV oils. Put another way, the time to reach a specified degree of polymerization will be extended by dilution. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Roy Washbish Certified Health Coach A HOME BUSINESS PRODUCTS THAT WORK PRODUCTS BUSINESS HTTP://WWW.TRIVITA.COM/11393920 - Do you Yahoo!? Better first dates. More second dates. Yahoo! Personals ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?
Thanks Keith I remember you giving me all this BUT I never made the connection betweem IV and IODINE VALUE. I GOT IT NOW Slow but Sure me. Thanks again ~BEST~ Roy Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi you fine people I read a lot about IV and have not been able to figure out what it is. I'm new to all this. Would someone PLEASE help me out here? Thanks Roy Hello Roy I gave you this before: Start here: Where do I start? http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#start That's on this page: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html Make your own biodiesel: Journey to Forever Read the whole thing, and then keep going. You'll find this on that page: Iodine Values -- High Iodine Values -- Talking about the weather All you need to know about IV. Best wshes Keith TLC Orchids and Such wrote: Hydrogenated canola has an IV of around 65 while non hydrogenated has an IV of around 112. Does anyone know if the IV in soybean (131) safflower (145) hemp (165) or sunflower (133) are altered in any way by the hydrogenation process? - Original Message - From: bob allen To: Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 3:24 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making? Howdy Kieth and Jan At the risk of looking foolish as I am an organic chemist, but don't have much experience with polymer chemistry- here goes Polymerization is a molecule molecule reaction. A compound with double carbon carbon bond is particularly susceptible free radical oxidation. Let's call them U. Compounds without carbon carbon double bounds are relatively unreactive. We will call these S. Oxygen will activate one molecule, U, but for polymerization to occur, the activated molecule must encounter another U, then the now covalently bonded pair, must encounter another U, and so on. Collisions of activated U with S don't result in a reaction. It seems to me that if you dilute U with S, that you will reduce polymerization. Or how about this. An activated molecule has only a finite amount of time to react. If an activated molecule U bumps into another U then chain growth continues. But if activated U bumps into S, no reaction occurs, other than U reacting internally, which also stops chain growth. Polymer chemists can modulate the number of molecules in a chain (chain length) by addition of non polymerizing stuff. Being a right brain guy, this discussion is made more difficult, as I can't draw all the pictures which exemplify the points I am trying to make. :( The long and short of it (no pun intended) chain length of polymers will be reduced by dilution of biodiesel blended from high IV oils with low IV oils. Put another way, the time to reach a specified degree of polymerization will be extended by dilution. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Roy Washbish Certified Health Coach A HOME BUSINESS PRODUCTS THAT WORK PRODUCTS BUSINESS HTTP://WWW.TRIVITA.COM/11393920 - Yahoo! Messenger Show us what our next emoticon should look like. Join the fun. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?
IVIodine Value - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 7:50 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making? Hi you fine people I read a lot about IV and have not been able to figure out what it is. I'm new to all this. Would someone PLEASE help me out here? Thanks Roy Hello Roy I gave you this before: Start here: Where do I start? http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#start That's on this page: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html Make your own biodiesel: Journey to Forever Read the whole thing, and then keep going. You'll find this on that page: Iodine Values -- High Iodine Values -- Talking about the weather All you need to know about IV. Best wshes Keith TLC Orchids and Such [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hydrogenated canola has an IV of around 65 while non hydrogenated has an IV of around 112. Does anyone know if the IV in soybean (131) safflower (145) hemp (165) or sunflower (133) are altered in any way by the hydrogenation process? - Original Message - From: bob allen To: Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 3:24 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making? Howdy Kieth and Jan At the risk of looking foolish as I am an organic chemist, but don't have much experience with polymer chemistry- here goes Polymerization is a molecule molecule reaction. A compound with double carbon carbon bond is particularly susceptible free radical oxidation. Let's call them U. Compounds without carbon carbon double bounds are relatively unreactive. We will call these S. Oxygen will activate one molecule, U, but for polymerization to occur, the activated molecule must encounter another U, then the now covalently bonded pair, must encounter another U, and so on. Collisions of activated U with S don't result in a reaction. It seems to me that if you dilute U with S, that you will reduce polymerization. Or how about this. An activated molecule has only a finite amount of time to react. If an activated molecule U bumps into another U then chain growth continues. But if activated U bumps into S, no reaction occurs, other than U reacting internally, which also stops chain growth. Polymer chemists can modulate the number of molecules in a chain (chain length) by addition of non polymerizing stuff. Being a right brain guy, this discussion is made more difficult, as I can't draw all the pictures which exemplify the points I am trying to make. :( The long and short of it (no pun intended) chain length of polymers will be reduced by dilution of biodiesel blended from high IV oils with low IV oils. Put another way, the time to reach a specified degree of polymerization will be extended by dilution. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?
Thank you Jan for your reply. Does anyone know the IV of Hydrogenated soybean oil? and does this affect whether or not it polymerizes? - Original Message - From: Jan Warnqvist [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 4:50 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making? Hello TLC. The main idea with hydrogenation is to alter the IV value of an oil. The answer is yes. Jan Warnqvist AGERATEC AB [EMAIL PROTECTED] + 46 554 201 89 +46 70 499 38 45 - Original Message - From: TLC Orchids and Such [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 5:13 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making? Hydrogenated canola has an IV of around 65 while non hydrogenated has an IV of around 112. Does anyone know if the IV in soybean (131) safflower (145) hemp (165) or sunflower (133) are altered in any way by the hydrogenation process? - Original Message - From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 3:24 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making? Howdy Kieth and Jan At the risk of looking foolish as I am an organic chemist, but don't have much experience with polymer chemistry- here goes Polymerization is a molecule molecule reaction. A compound with double carbon carbon bond is particularly susceptible free radical oxidation. Let's call them U. Compounds without carbon carbon double bounds are relatively unreactive. We will call these S. Oxygen will activate one molecule, U, but for polymerization to occur, the activated molecule must encounter another U, then the now covalently bonded pair, must encounter another U, and so on. Collisions of activated U with S don't result in a reaction. It seems to me that if you dilute U with S, that you will reduce polymerization. Or how about this. An activated molecule has only a finite amount of time to react. If an activated molecule U bumps into another U then chain growth continues. But if activated U bumps into S, no reaction occurs, other than U reacting internally, which also stops chain growth. Polymer chemists can modulate the number of molecules in a chain (chain length) by addition of non polymerizing stuff. Being a right brain guy, this discussion is made more difficult, as I can't draw all the pictures which exemplify the points I am trying to make. :( The long and short of it (no pun intended) chain length of polymers will be reduced by dilution of biodiesel blended from high IV oils with low IV oils. Put another way, the time to reach a specified degree of polymerization will be extended by dilution. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?
Thank You TLC Orchids and Such [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:IV Iodine Value - Original Message - From: Keith Addison To: Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 7:50 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making? Hi you fine people I read a lot about IV and have not been able to figure out what it is. I'm new to all this. Would someone PLEASE help me out here? Thanks Roy Hello Roy I gave you this before: Start here: Where do I start? http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#start That's on this page: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html Make your own biodiesel: Journey to Forever Read the whole thing, and then keep going. You'll find this on that page: Iodine Values -- High Iodine Values -- Talking about the weather All you need to know about IV. Best wshes Keith TLC Orchids and Such wrote: Hydrogenated canola has an IV of around 65 while non hydrogenated has an IV of around 112. Does anyone know if the IV in soybean (131) safflower (145) hemp (165) or sunflower (133) are altered in any way by the hydrogenation process? - Original Message - From: bob allen To: Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 3:24 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making? Howdy Kieth and Jan At the risk of looking foolish as I am an organic chemist, but don't have much experience with polymer chemistry- here goes Polymerization is a molecule molecule reaction. A compound with double carbon carbon bond is particularly susceptible free radical oxidation. Let's call them U. Compounds without carbon carbon double bounds are relatively unreactive. We will call these S. Oxygen will activate one molecule, U, but for polymerization to occur, the activated molecule must encounter another U, then the now covalently bonded pair, must encounter another U, and so on. Collisions of activated U with S don't result in a reaction. It seems to me that if you dilute U with S, that you will reduce polymerization. Or how about this. An activated molecule has only a finite amount of time to react. If an activated molecule U bumps into another U then chain growth continues. But if activated U bumps into S, no reaction occurs, other than U reacting internally, which also stops chain growth. Polymer chemists can modulate the number of molecules in a chain (chain length) by addition of non polymerizing stuff. Being a right brain guy, this discussion is made more difficult, as I can't draw all the pictures which exemplify the points I am trying to make. :( The long and short of it (no pun intended) chain length of polymers will be reduced by dilution of biodiesel blended from high IV oils with low IV oils. Put another way, the time to reach a specified degree of polymerization will be extended by dilution. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Roy Washbish Certified Health Coach A HOME BUSINESS PRODUCTS THAT WORK PRODUCTS BUSINESS HTTP://WWW.TRIVITA.COM/11393920 - Do you Yahoo!? Make Yahoo! your home page ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?
carbon double bonds, so the amount of Iodine absorbed is a direct measure of the number of double bonds. Hydrogenation removes the double bonds. Complete hydrogenation will remove all double bonds hence the Iodine value should be essentially zero. TLC Orchids and Such wrote: Hydrogenated canola has an IV of around 65 while non hydrogenated has an IV of around 112. this must be partially hydrogenated Does anyone know if the IV in soybean (131) safflower (145) hemp (165) or sunflower (133) are altered in any way by the hydrogenation process? sure, the IV of these compounds will be zero also if completely hydrogenated. The product will me a solid at room temperature, and the derived biodiesel will have a higher gel point. -- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves - Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?
in temperature results in a doubling of a reaction rate. So the short answer is yes, but with the caveat: You really don't need to worry about a polymerization reaction occurring in an injector or hot engine part that it would interfere with the operation of the engine. Tom Irwin wrote: Hi Bob, I like the us and ss for those uninitiated. But my question is at high temperature, like that found near or in a diesel engine, will the us be able to find those other us more easily and thus have a polymerization reaction anyway? Tom -Original Message- -- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves - Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?
SVO, not biodiesel: The use of drying oils or sem-drying - with linseed and tung being the most drying (although few would use them in a diesel engine, given how much more expensive they are that WVO frying oils) and walnut and soy being less so - is reported to cause polymerization of lube oils if they migrate into the crankcase. And, as you point out, any straight vegetable oil can do this if unheated. Poor atomization of WVO or SVO is the main mechanism that leads to dilution/contamination of the lube oil - if the fuel-air charge isn't atomized well enough, the resulting larger droplets don't combust, and can run down the cylinder walls and into the crankcase - and if the WVO or SVO is a drying or semi-drying oil, polymerization will occur. Also, the uncombusted fuel can, reportedly, cause deposits in the ring lands - the piston ring grooves - preventing the rings from expanding and contracting as designed, resulting in an even greater tendency of any uncombusted fuel to get into the crankcase, and, if the compression rings are also effected, poor compression results, with even worse combustion. The vicious circle phenomenon. And, direct-injection engines are more subject to all of this, since the pre-chamber in an indirect injection engine helps with combustion with less-than-perfect fuels. So, the best way(s) to prevent polymerization of lube oils, are, in rough order of priority (and in my opinion:) 1. Heat the WVO/SVO. The hotter the better - which is why we use both coolant and 12V electric. This is even more critical in direct-injection (DI) engines. 2. Use a synthetic motor oil - they are less prone to polymerization. 3. Especially with a genset, and even more especially with a DI genset, don't use drying or semi-drying oils. 4. As Anton pointed out, run the genset at full load. Add load if necessary. 5. Use a two-tank system, and purge well. Bioidiesel is better for purging/cleaning than diesel, so use that. 6. Pay for periodic lube oil analysis to check for uncombusted veggie oil. 7. Change the lube oil more frequently with the $ you've saved by running the thing on free fuel. Or, in the case of a genset, just run it on good biodiesel. Craig Reece Neoteric Biofuels http://www.biofuels.ca ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?
Hello Bob and thank you for your input. There should also be pointed out that polymerization may take place in the fuel tank of the vehicle, at least to some extent, since many diesels have leak fuel lines transporting hot fuel to the tank, so the temperature in the tank will rise in proportion to the amount of hot fuel coming in. This may lead to fuel filter clogging. Not instantly, of course, but after a number of hours. Jan Warnqvist AGERATEC AB [EMAIL PROTECTED] + 46 554 201 89 +46 70 499 38 45 - Original Message - From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 5:00 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making? The general rule of thumb is that a 10 degree Celsius rise in temperature results in a doubling of a reaction rate. So the short answer is yes, but with the caveat: You really don't need to worry about a polymerization reaction occurring in an injector or hot engine part that it would interfere with the operation of the engine. Tom Irwin wrote: Hi Bob, I like the us and ss for those uninitiated. But my question is at high temperature, like that found near or in a diesel engine, will the us be able to find those other us more easily and thus have a polymerization reaction anyway? Tom -Original Message- -- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves - Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?
Jan, That is exactly the oil I have in mind. From what I have read it produces the greatest amount of oil per hectare. Highly saturated is good news. Must be lots of folks making Bio D from this material, once used. in Europe, yes? Thanks, Tom -Original Message- From: Jan Warnqvist To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 2/04/05 6:41 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making? Hello Tom. Are you referring to palm oil ? This is a highly saturated oil common in Europe as frying oil. The oil is imported from Malaysia. Is it this one ? Bst rgrds Jan Warnqvist AGERATEC AB [EMAIL PROTECTED] + 46 554 201 89 +46 70 499 38 45 - Original Message - From: Tom Irwin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 11:57 PM Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making? Hi All, Any information like this on oil from palm trees? I«m not a fan of soybean because of Monsanto. Thanks, Tom Irwin -Original Message- From: Jan Warnqvist To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 1/04/05 5:39 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making? Hello Keith and thank you for your input. I agree with you, blending an oil with a high IV with one with a lower, should produce an average IV. But in some course literature I read some time ago, it said that oil spill from rape seed oil will leave you two months to wipe it up before it polymerizes, soy bean oil will leave you two weeks, and linseed oil two days. From this way of reasoning one can conclude, when comparing the average IV values of each oil, that blending rape seed oil with llinseed oil to an average IV value of soybean oil, will produce an oil with similar polymerization properties as soybean oil. And further- if producing of biodiesel out of high IV oils, will lower the fatty acids« ability to polymerize one can conclude that the first step of polmerization takes place within the triglyceride molecule, possibly with bridges of oxygen between the double bonds of different fatty acids. In methyl ester the fatty acids with the right will to polymerize have some difficulties finding each other and build bridges. Give me some input on this way of explanation ,Keith ! Best regards Jan Jan Warnqvist AGERATEC AB [EMAIL PROTECTED] + 46 554 201 89 +46 70 499 38 45 - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 7:28 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making? Hello DB and all Anyone making bio-diesel should be concerned with the IV of the oil and the polymerzation of the engine. After a careful reading of the australian report WVO as a Diesel replacement fuel it is obvious that they are concerned with it's use as straight veggy oil and Not so much Bio-diesel.( I would be concerned too) Here is a direct quote from that report. Trans esterifying triglyceride oils and fats with monohydric alcohols to form biodiesel largly eliminates the tendency of the oils and fats to polymerization and auto-oxidation.. The base crop for european biodiesel being rapeseed with a IV of 98 is a reasonable goal to acheve. Most of my stock is soy oil and much of it is hydrogenated. I also get cottonseed and peanut oil along with canola (rapeseed) I no longer use straight soy oil and try to make a blend. In the past when I only had soy oil based biodiesel I would only run BD50. I an no longer worried about the IV of the oil and if you are then just run BD50.Drive down the road Happy...DB ..PS. I have been making biodiesel since '02 and have made 1000's of gallons with zero problems. I agree, and thankyou, but I'm not sure I follow the logic of your solution, attractive though it is. Does an IV value average out when you blend different oils? Other things will, of course, like say FFA levels, you'll end up with an average and that's that. But in a blend with biodiesel made from a high IV oil with biodiesel made from lower IV oils, while the proportion of high IV oil will be lower, what's to stop it oxidising and polymerising just the same? Blending it doesn't change its makeup. I'm not sure what effect blending it with petrodiesel would have, but that wouldn't change its makeup either, it still has its double bonds to be broken down and polymerise. All you'd get is proportionately less polymerisation, no? So it'll take longer to gunge up the engine. That doesn't solve the problem, just mitigates it. Sorry, I don't know if this is right or not, just trying to be logical - maybe it doesn't work like that, but I'd like to know. Regards Keith - Original Message - From: TLC Orchids and Such [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 4:37 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?] Where can we get the veg-based motor oil? Can better oil filtering help
Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?
Hello Bob and thank you for your input. There should also be pointed out that polymerization may take place in the fuel tank of the vehicle, at least to some extent, since many diesels have leak fuel lines transporting hot fuel to the tank, so the temperature in the tank will rise in proportion to the amount of hot fuel coming in. This may lead to fuel filter clogging. Not instantly, of course, but after a number of hours. Jan Warnqvist AGERATEC AB [EMAIL PROTECTED] + 46 554 201 89 +46 70 499 38 45 - Original Message - From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 5:00 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making? Just a little suggestion on this, I have re-plumbed the return feed from the pump back to the inlet of the filter so the return fuel is circulated straight back into the pump. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?
That is exactly the oil I have in mind. From what I have read it produces the greatest amount of oil per hectare. Highly saturated is good news. Must be lots of folks making Bio D from this material, once used. in Europe, yes? No - highly saturated might be good news as far as drying is concerned, but it also means a high cloud point. CHECK THE ARCHIVES! There's TONS of stuff about palm oil in the archives! And/or Journey to Forever: Iodine Values -- High Iodine Values -- Talking about the weather http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield.html#iodine Keith Thanks, Tom -Original Message- From: Jan Warnqvist To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 2/04/05 6:41 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making? Hello Tom. Are you referring to palm oil ? This is a highly saturated oil common in Europe as frying oil. The oil is imported from Malaysia. Is it this one ? Bst rgrds Jan Warnqvist AGERATEC AB [EMAIL PROTECTED] + 46 554 201 89 +46 70 499 38 45 - Original Message - From: Tom Irwin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 11:57 PM Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making? Hi All, Any information like this on oil from palm trees? I«m not a fan of soybean because of Monsanto. Thanks, Tom Irwin ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?
Thank you for your reply IV is the iodine value. Iodine reacts with the carbon carbon double bonds, so the amount of Iodine absorbed is a direct measure of the number of double bonds. Hydrogenation removes the double bonds. Complete hydrogenation will remove all double bonds hence the Iodine value should be essentially zero. TLC Orchids and Such wrote: Hydrogenated canola has an IV of around 65 while non hydrogenated has an IV of around 112. this must be partially hydrogenated Does anyone know if the IV in soybean (131) safflower (145) hemp (165) or sunflower (133) are altered in any way by the hydrogenation process? sure, the IV of these compounds will be zero also if completely hydrogenated. The product will me a solid at room temperature, and the derived biodiesel will have a higher gel point. -- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves - Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?
Hello Keith and thank you for your input. I agree with you, blending an oil with a high IV with one with a lower, should produce an average IV. But in some course literature I read some time ago, it said that oil spill from rape seed oil will leave you two months to wipe it up before it polymerizes, soy bean oil will leave you two weeks, and linseed oil two days. From this way of reasoning one can conclude, when comparing the average IV values of each oil, that blending rape seed oil with llinseed oil to an average IV value of soybean oil, will produce an oil with similar polymerization properties as soybean oil. And further- if producing of biodiesel out of high IV oils, will lower the fatty acids« ability to polymerize one can conclude that the first step of polmerization takes place within the triglyceride molecule, possibly with bridges of oxygen between the double bonds of different fatty acids. In methyl ester the fatty acids with the right will to polymerize have some difficulties finding each other and build bridges. Give me some input on this way of explanation ,Keith ! Best regards Jan Jan Warnqvist AGERATEC AB [EMAIL PROTECTED] + 46 554 201 89 +46 70 499 38 45 - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 7:28 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making? Hello DB and all Anyone making bio-diesel should be concerned with the IV of the oil and the polymerzation of the engine. After a careful reading of the australian report WVO as a Diesel replacement fuel it is obvious that they are concerned with it's use as straight veggy oil and Not so much Bio-diesel.( I would be concerned too) Here is a direct quote from that report. Trans esterifying triglyceride oils and fats with monohydric alcohols to form biodiesel largly eliminates the tendency of the oils and fats to polymerization and auto-oxidation.. The base crop for european biodiesel being rapeseed with a IV of 98 is a reasonable goal to acheve. Most of my stock is soy oil and much of it is hydrogenated. I also get cottonseed and peanut oil along with canola (rapeseed) I no longer use straight soy oil and try to make a blend. In the past when I only had soy oil based biodiesel I would only run BD50. I an no longer worried about the IV of the oil and if you are then just run BD50.Drive down the road Happy...DB ..PS. I have been making biodiesel since '02 and have made 1000's of gallons with zero problems. I agree, and thankyou, but I'm not sure I follow the logic of your solution, attractive though it is. Does an IV value average out when you blend different oils? Other things will, of course, like say FFA levels, you'll end up with an average and that's that. But in a blend with biodiesel made from a high IV oil with biodiesel made from lower IV oils, while the proportion of high IV oil will be lower, what's to stop it oxidising and polymerising just the same? Blending it doesn't change its makeup. I'm not sure what effect blending it with petrodiesel would have, but that wouldn't change its makeup either, it still has its double bonds to be broken down and polymerise. All you'd get is proportionately less polymerisation, no? So it'll take longer to gunge up the engine. That doesn't solve the problem, just mitigates it. Sorry, I don't know if this is right or not, just trying to be logical - maybe it doesn't work like that, but I'd like to know. Regards Keith - Original Message - From: TLC Orchids and Such [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 4:37 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?] Where can we get the veg-based motor oil? Can better oil filtering help with this problem? Racor has a motor oil filter used in race cars. - Original Message - From: stephan torak [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; stephan torak [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 5:45 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?] Thanks for the follow up, Keith. I have since spent many hours researching the issue and have found some relevant facts here: www.blt.bmlf.gv.at/vero/veroeff/0100_Technical_performance_of_methyl_esthe rs _e.pdf #www.blt.bmlf.gv.atveroveroeff0100_Tec Keith Addison wrote: Hello Stephan, Jan and all I asked Elsbett's Alexander Noack for some comment on what he was quoted as saying about soy oil, and got a very brief response from him: Hi Keith, this all is nearly correct, but only for direct injection engines. Mit freundlichen Gr§en / Best regards Alexander Noack ELSBETT Technologie GmbH Weissenburger Stra§e 15 D-91177 Thalmaessing Internet: www.elsbett.com e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] phone: +49 (0)9173 77940 Fax: +49 (0)9173 77942
Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?
with a high IV with one with a lower, should produce an average IV. No Jan, that's not what I said, I don't think it will produce an average IV. An iodine test might give you an average result, but the makeup of the high IV oil will remain unchanged, and it will polymerise anyway. How can blending oils change their chemical characteristics? The double bonds will remain, though in the blend there will be fewer of them, only because there'll be less of that kind of oil. But it will still polymerise. I'm not sure about this, but it seems logical, and your explanation seems illogical - merely blending oils cannot change their chemical characteristics. But in some course literature I read some time ago, it said that oil spill from rape seed oil will leave you two months to wipe it up before it polymerizes, soy bean oil will leave you two weeks, and linseed oil two days. From this way of reasoning one can conclude, when comparing the average IV values of each oil, that blending rape seed oil with llinseed oil to an average IV value of soybean oil, will produce an oil with similar polymerization properties as soybean oil. I just don't see it - what effect can mixing rapeseed oil with linseed oil have on the double bonds of the linseed oil? There is no chemical reaction. The double bonds will still be there, unchanged, and will still polymerise. And further- if producing of biodiesel out of high IV oils, will lower Lower it yes, but not remove it as you recently claimed. Biodiesel made from high IV oils will also polymerise, but not as rapidly ast raw oil would. the fatty acids« ability to polymerize one can conclude that the first step of polmerization takes place within the triglyceride molecule, possibly with bridges of oxygen between the double bonds of different fatty acids. In methyl ester the fatty acids with the right will to polymerize have some difficulties finding each other and build bridges. Some difficulties perhaps, but it will still happen. Best wishes Keith Give me some input on this way of explanation ,Keith ! Best regards Jan Jan Warnqvist AGERATEC AB [EMAIL PROTECTED] + 46 554 201 89 +46 70 499 38 45 - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 7:28 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making? Hello DB and all Anyone making bio-diesel should be concerned with the IV of the oil and the polymerzation of the engine. After a careful reading of the australian report WVO as a Diesel replacement fuel it is obvious that they are concerned with it's use as straight veggy oil and Not so much Bio-diesel.( I would be concerned too) Here is a direct quote from that report. Trans esterifying triglyceride oils and fats with monohydric alcohols to form biodiesel largly eliminates the tendency of the oils and fats to polymerization and auto-oxidation.. The base crop for european biodiesel being rapeseed with a IV of 98 is a reasonable goal to acheve. Most of my stock is soy oil and much of it is hydrogenated. I also get cottonseed and peanut oil along with canola (rapeseed) I no longer use straight soy oil and try to make a blend. In the past when I only had soy oil based biodiesel I would only run BD50. I an no longer worried about the IV of the oil and if you are then just run BD50.Drive down the road Happy...DB ..PS. I have been making biodiesel since '02 and have made 1000's of gallons with zero problems. I agree, and thankyou, but I'm not sure I follow the logic of your solution, attractive though it is. Does an IV value average out when you blend different oils? Other things will, of course, like say FFA levels, you'll end up with an average and that's that. But in a blend with biodiesel made from a high IV oil with biodiesel made from lower IV oils, while the proportion of high IV oil will be lower, what's to stop it oxidising and polymerising just the same? Blending it doesn't change its makeup. I'm not sure what effect blending it with petrodiesel would have, but that wouldn't change its makeup either, it still has its double bonds to be broken down and polymerise. All you'd get is proportionately less polymerisation, no? So it'll take longer to gunge up the engine. That doesn't solve the problem, just mitigates it. Sorry, I don't know if this is right or not, just trying to be logical - maybe it doesn't work like that, but I'd like to know. Regards Keith snip ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?
Howdy Kieth and Jan At the risk of looking foolish as I am an organic chemist, but don't have much experience with polymer chemistry- here goes Polymerization is a molecule molecule reaction. A compound with double carbon carbon bond is particularly susceptible free radical oxidation. Let's call them U. Compounds without carbon carbon double bounds are relatively unreactive. We will call these S. Oxygen will activate one molecule, U, but for polymerization to occur, the activated molecule must encounter another U, then the now covalently bonded pair, must encounter another U, and so on. Collisions of activated U with S don't result in a reaction. It seems to me that if you dilute U with S, that you will reduce polymerization. Or how about this. An activated molecule has only a finite amount of time to react. If an activated molecule U bumps into another U then chain growth continues. But if activated U bumps into S, no reaction occurs, other than U reacting internally, which also stops chain growth. Polymer chemists can modulate the number of molecules in a chain (chain length) by addition of non polymerizing stuff. Being a right brain guy, this discussion is made more difficult, as I can't draw all the pictures which exemplify the points I am trying to make. :( The long and short of it (no pun intended) chain length of polymers will be reduced by dilution of biodiesel blended from high IV oils with low IV oils. Put another way, the time to reach a specified degree of polymerization will be extended by dilution. Keith Addison wrote: Hello Keith and thank you for your input. I agree with you, blending an oil with a high IV with one with a lower, should produce an average IV. -- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves Richard Feynman --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?
Hydrogenated canola has an IV of around 65 while non hydrogenated has an IV of around 112. Does anyone know if the IV in soybean (131) safflower (145) hemp (165) or sunflower (133) are altered in any way by the hydrogenation process? - Original Message - From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 3:24 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making? Howdy Kieth and Jan At the risk of looking foolish as I am an organic chemist, but don't have much experience with polymer chemistry- here goes Polymerization is a molecule molecule reaction. A compound with double carbon carbon bond is particularly susceptible free radical oxidation. Let's call them U. Compounds without carbon carbon double bounds are relatively unreactive. We will call these S. Oxygen will activate one molecule, U, but for polymerization to occur, the activated molecule must encounter another U, then the now covalently bonded pair, must encounter another U, and so on. Collisions of activated U with S don't result in a reaction. It seems to me that if you dilute U with S, that you will reduce polymerization. Or how about this. An activated molecule has only a finite amount of time to react. If an activated molecule U bumps into another U then chain growth continues. But if activated U bumps into S, no reaction occurs, other than U reacting internally, which also stops chain growth. Polymer chemists can modulate the number of molecules in a chain (chain length) by addition of non polymerizing stuff. Being a right brain guy, this discussion is made more difficult, as I can't draw all the pictures which exemplify the points I am trying to make. :( The long and short of it (no pun intended) chain length of polymers will be reduced by dilution of biodiesel blended from high IV oils with low IV oils. Put another way, the time to reach a specified degree of polymerization will be extended by dilution. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?]
Where can we get the veg-based motor oil? Can better oil filtering help with this problem? Racor has a motor oil filter used in race cars. - Original Message - From: stephan torak [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; stephan torak [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 5:45 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?] Thanks for the follow up, Keith. I have since spent many hours researching the issue and have found some relevant facts here: www.blt.bmlf.gv.at/vero/veroeff/0100_Technical_performance_of_methyl_esthers _e.pdf #www.blt.bmlf.gv.atveroveroeff0100_Tec Keith Addison wrote: Hello Stephan, Jan and all I asked Elsbett's Alexander Noack for some comment on what he was quoted as saying about soy oil, and got a very brief response from him: Hi Keith, this all is nearly correct, but only for direct injection engines. Mit freundlichen Gr§en / Best regards Alexander Noack ELSBETT Technologie GmbH Weissenburger Stra§e 15 D-91177 Thalmaessing Internet: www.elsbett.com e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] phone: +49 (0)9173 77940 Fax: +49 (0)9173 77942 This was the quote in question: Soybean oil is bad. Whether it is straight vegetable oil or soybean based biodiesel. It is a no-go in diesel engines. Why? In diesel engines you have slight mixing between fuel and lubricating oil. There is a fuel property in soybean oil that makes it reactive when in contact with engine lubricating oil. It supposedly has a polymerizing action with the engine oil, which is detrimental to the life of your lubricating system. What they do in Europe is use a vegetable-based lubricating oil for the engine to prevent any problems with fuel-lubricating oil intimacy. What else? They do not use soybean oil; They use rape seed also known as canola. Best wishes Keith Hello Jan Hello Stephan. The reason for Elsbett«s people (and several others) for rejecting soy bean oil is its high iodine number. As the case with fish oil, corn oil and several kinds of sunflower oil. A high iodine number is indicating that the oil may be chemically unstable due to its unsaturation level and therefore unsuitable as engine fuel both as SVO and BD. In other words, it polymerises - to quote Phillip Calais: Drying results from the double bonds (and sometimes triple bonds) in the unsaturated oil molecules being broken by atmospheric oxygen and being converted to peroxides. Cross-linking at this site can then occur and the oil irreversibly polymerises into a plastic-like solid. -- From Waste Vegetable Oil as a Diesel Replacement Fuel by Phillip Calais, Environmental Science, Murdoch University, Perth, Australia, and A.R. (Tony) Clark, Western Australian Renewable Fuels Association Inc. http://www.shortcircuit.com.au/warfa/paper/paper.htm See: Iodine Values http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield.html#iodine But that's not quite what Elsbett's Alexander Noack is quoted as saying at the East Coast Region-United States Elsbett Workshop: Soybean oil is bad. Whether it is straight vegetable oil or soybean based biodiesel. It is a no-go in diesel engines. Why? In diesel engines you have slight mixing between fuel and lubricating oil. There is a fuel property in soybean oil that makes it reactive when in contact with engine lubricating oil. It supposedly has a polymerizing action with the engine oil, which is detrimental to the life of your lubricating system. What they do in Europe is use a vegetable-based lubricating oil for the engine to prevent any problems with fuel-lubricating oil intimacy. What else? They do not use soybean oil; They use rape seed also known as canola. So it would seem that Elsbett's reservations are not so much with polymerisation per se because of the high iodine number as with fuel-lubricating oil interactions. Can you shed any light on this? There are some companies producing me from oil with a high iodine number, and there is no practical difference between those products and the BD:s with a iodine number around or under 120 for the consumer. Can you quote any research that supports the conclusion that there is no practical difference? I've heard of drying problems with sunflower oil biodiesel, and even with rapeseed oil biodiesel (I don't have the reports, I was told they're in German) and I would not want to use linseed oil or tung oil. And may I add that the American B100 standard allows soy bean oil as raw material. Of course they do - how much do you think the soy councils and Big Soy had to do with that? They were involved at every level. Whatever the science may say, do you think it would have been possible for them to develop standards that excluded soy? Similarly, it's often said that the EU standard's stipulating a maximum iodine # of 120 (115
Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?]
I too have requested a more detailed explanation for the information we learned at last year's Elsbett workshop in North Carolina. I sent off this question : What is the main reason Elsbett suggests not using soybean oil as a fuel- Is it due to its high iodine number? Or is it just due to soybean oil's negative effect on lubrication oil? When I receive an answer I will post to the list. Thanks, Rachel Burton Piedmont Biofuels www.biofuels.coop On Mar 30, 2005, at 1:32 PM, Keith Addison wrote: Hello Stephan, Jan and all I asked Elsbett's Alexander Noack for some comment on what he was quoted as saying about soy oil, and got a very brief response from him: Hi Keith, this all is nearly correct, but only for direct injection engines. Mit freundlichen Gr§en / Best regards Alexander Noack ELSBETT Technologie GmbH Weissenburger Stra§e 15 D-91177 Thalmaessing Internet: www.elsbett.com e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] phone: +49 (0)9173 77940 Fax: +49 (0)9173 77942 This was the quote in question: Soybean oil is bad. Whether it is straight vegetable oil or soybean based biodiesel. It is a no-go in diesel engines. Why? In diesel engines you have slight mixing between fuel and lubricating oil. There is a fuel property in soybean oil that makes it reactive when in contact with engine lubricating oil. It supposedly has a polymerizing action with the engine oil, which is detrimental to the life of your lubricating system. What they do in Europe is use a vegetable-based lubricating oil for the engine to prevent any problems with fuel-lubricating oil intimacy. What else? They do not use soybean oil; They use rape seed also known as canola. Best wishes Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?]
polymerzation of the engine. After a careful reading of the australian report WVO as a Diesel replacement fuel it is obvious that they are concerned with it's use as straight veggy oil and Not so much Bio-diesel.( I would be concerned too) Here is a direct quote from that report. Trans esterifying triglyceride oils and fats with monohydric alcohols to form biodiesel largly eliminates the tendency of the oils and fats to polymerization and auto-oxidation.. The base crop for european biodiesel being rapeseed with a IV of 98 is a reasonable goal to acheve. Most of my stock is soy oil and much of it is hydrogenated. I also get cottonseed and peanut oil along with canola (rapeseed) I no longer use straight soy oil and try to make a blend. In the past when I only had soy oil based biodiesel I would only run BD50. I an no longer worried about the IV of the oil and if you are then just run BD50.Drive down the road Happy...DB ..PS. I have been making biodiesel since '02 and have made 1000's of gallons with zero problems. - Original Message - From: TLC Orchids and Such [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 4:37 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?] Where can we get the veg-based motor oil? Can better oil filtering help with this problem? Racor has a motor oil filter used in race cars. - Original Message - From: stephan torak [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; stephan torak [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 5:45 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?] Thanks for the follow up, Keith. I have since spent many hours researching the issue and have found some relevant facts here: www.blt.bmlf.gv.at/vero/veroeff/0100_Technical_performance_of_methyl_esthers _e.pdf #www.blt.bmlf.gv.atveroveroeff0100_Tec Keith Addison wrote: Hello Stephan, Jan and all I asked Elsbett's Alexander Noack for some comment on what he was quoted as saying about soy oil, and got a very brief response from him: Hi Keith, this all is nearly correct, but only for direct injection engines. Mit freundlichen Gr§en / Best regards Alexander Noack ELSBETT Technologie GmbH Weissenburger Stra§e 15 D-91177 Thalmaessing Internet: www.elsbett.com e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] phone: +49 (0)9173 77940 Fax: +49 (0)9173 77942 This was the quote in question: Soybean oil is bad. Whether it is straight vegetable oil or soybean based biodiesel. It is a no-go in diesel engines. Why? In diesel engines you have slight mixing between fuel and lubricating oil. There is a fuel property in soybean oil that makes it reactive when in contact with engine lubricating oil. It supposedly has a polymerizing action with the engine oil, which is detrimental to the life of your lubricating system. What they do in Europe is use a vegetable-based lubricating oil for the engine to prevent any problems with fuel-lubricating oil intimacy. What else? They do not use soybean oil; They use rape seed also known as canola. Best wishes Keith Hello Jan Hello Stephan. The reason for Elsbett«s people (and several others) for rejecting soy bean oil is its high iodine number. As the case with fish oil, corn oil and several kinds of sunflower oil. A high iodine number is indicating that the oil may be chemically unstable due to its unsaturation level and therefore unsuitable as engine fuel both as SVO and BD. In other words, it polymerises - to quote Phillip Calais: Drying results from the double bonds (and sometimes triple bonds) in the unsaturated oil molecules being broken by atmospheric oxygen and being converted to peroxides. Cross-linking at this site can then occur and the oil irreversibly polymerises into a plastic-like solid. -- From Waste Vegetable Oil as a Diesel Replacement Fuel by Phillip Calais, Environmental Science, Murdoch University, Perth, Australia, and A.R. (Tony) Clark, Western Australian Renewable Fuels Association Inc. http://www.shortcircuit.com.au/warfa/paper/paper.htm See: Iodine Values http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield.html#iodine But that's not quite what Elsbett's Alexander Noack is quoted as saying at the East Coast Region-United States Elsbett Workshop: Soybean oil is bad. Whether it is straight vegetable oil or soybean based biodiesel. It is a no-go in diesel engines. Why? In diesel engines you have slight mixing between fuel and lubricating oil. There is a fuel property in soybean oil that makes it reactive when in contact with engine lubricating oil. It supposedly has a polymerizing action with the engine oil, which is detrimental to the life of your lubricating system. What they do in Europe is use a vegetable-based lubricating oil for the engine to prevent any problems with fuel-lubricating oil intimacy. What else? They do not use soybean oil; They use rape seed
Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?]
Hello DB. Quoting :Trans esterifying triglyceride oils and fats with monohydric alcohols to form biodiesel largely eliminates the tendency of the oils and fats to polymerization and auto-oxidation.. I can add that this is the exact scenario with methyl ester from fish oil and linseed oil. Jan Jan Warnqvist AGERATEC AB [EMAIL PROTECTED] + 46 554 201 89 +46 70 499 38 45 - Original Message - From: DB [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 9:16 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?] Anyone making bio-diesel should be concerned with the IV of the oil and the polymerzation of the engine. After a careful reading of the australian report WVO as a Diesel replacement fuel it is obvious that they are concerned with it's use as straight veggy oil and Not so much Bio-diesel.( I would be concerned too) Here is a direct quote from that report. Trans esterifying triglyceride oils and fats with monohydric alcohols to form biodiesel largly eliminates the tendency of the oils and fats to polymerization and auto-oxidation.. The base crop for european biodiesel being rapeseed with a IV of 98 is a reasonable goal to acheve. Most of my stock is soy oil and much of it is hydrogenated. I also get cottonseed and peanut oil along with canola (rapeseed) I no longer use straight soy oil and try to make a blend. In the past when I only had soy oil based biodiesel I would only run BD50. I an no longer worried about the IV of the oil and if you are then just run BD50.Drive down the road Happy...DB ..PS. I have been making biodiesel since '02 and have made 1000's of gallons with zero problems. - Original Message - From: TLC Orchids and Such [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 4:37 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?] Where can we get the veg-based motor oil? Can better oil filtering help with this problem? Racor has a motor oil filter used in race cars. - Original Message - From: stephan torak [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; stephan torak [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 5:45 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?] Thanks for the follow up, Keith. I have since spent many hours researching the issue and have found some relevant facts here: www.blt.bmlf.gv.at/vero/veroeff/0100_Technical_performance_of_methyl_esthers _e.pdf #www.blt.bmlf.gv.atveroveroeff0100_Tec Keith Addison wrote: Hello Stephan, Jan and all I asked Elsbett's Alexander Noack for some comment on what he was quoted as saying about soy oil, and got a very brief response from him: Hi Keith, this all is nearly correct, but only for direct injection engines. Mit freundlichen Gr§en / Best regards Alexander Noack ELSBETT Technologie GmbH Weissenburger Stra§e 15 D-91177 Thalmaessing Internet: www.elsbett.com e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] phone: +49 (0)9173 77940 Fax: +49 (0)9173 77942 This was the quote in question: Soybean oil is bad. Whether it is straight vegetable oil or soybean based biodiesel. It is a no-go in diesel engines. Why? In diesel engines you have slight mixing between fuel and lubricating oil. There is a fuel property in soybean oil that makes it reactive when in contact with engine lubricating oil. It supposedly has a polymerizing action with the engine oil, which is detrimental to the life of your lubricating system. What they do in Europe is use a vegetable-based lubricating oil for the engine to prevent any problems with fuel-lubricating oil intimacy. What else? They do not use soybean oil; They use rape seed also known as canola. Best wishes Keith Hello Jan Hello Stephan. The reason for Elsbett«s people (and several others) for rejecting soy bean oil is its high iodine number. As the case with fish oil, corn oil and several kinds of sunflower oil. A high iodine number is indicating that the oil may be chemically unstable due to its unsaturation level and therefore unsuitable as engine fuel both as SVO and BD. In other words, it polymerises - to quote Phillip Calais: Drying results from the double bonds (and sometimes triple bonds) in the unsaturated oil molecules being broken by atmospheric oxygen and being converted to peroxides. Cross-linking at this site can then occur and the oil irreversibly polymerises into a plastic-like solid. -- From Waste Vegetable Oil as a Diesel Replacement Fuel by Phillip Calais, Environmental Science, Murdoch University, Perth, Australia, and A.R. (Tony) Clark, Western Australian Renewable Fuels Association Inc. http://www.shortcircuit.com.au/warfa/paper/paper.htm See: Iodine Values http
Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?]
Hello DB. Quoting :Trans esterifying triglyceride oils and fats with monohydric alcohols to form biodiesel largely eliminates the tendency of the oils and fats to polymerization and auto-oxidation.. I can add that this is the exact scenario with methyl ester from fish oil and linseed oil. Jan Jan Warnqvist AGERATEC AB [EMAIL PROTECTED] + 46 554 201 89 +46 70 499 38 45 - Original Message - From: DB [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 9:16 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?] Anyone making bio-diesel should be concerned with the IV of the oil and the polymerzation of the engine. After a careful reading of the australian report WVO as a Diesel replacement fuel it is obvious that they are concerned with it's use as straight veggy oil and Not so much Bio-diesel.( I would be concerned too) Here is a direct quote from that report. Trans esterifying triglyceride oils and fats with monohydric alcohols to form biodiesel largly eliminates the tendency of the oils and fats to polymerization and auto-oxidation.. The base crop for european biodiesel being rapeseed with a IV of 98 is a reasonable goal to acheve. Most of my stock is soy oil and much of it is hydrogenated. I also get cottonseed and peanut oil along with canola (rapeseed) I no longer use straight soy oil and try to make a blend. In the past when I only had soy oil based biodiesel I would only run BD50. I an no longer worried about the IV of the oil and if you are then just run BD50.Drive down the road Happy...DB ..PS. I have been making biodiesel since '02 and have made 1000's of gallons with zero problems. - Original Message - From: TLC Orchids and Such [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 4:37 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?] Where can we get the veg-based motor oil? Can better oil filtering help with this problem? Racor has a motor oil filter used in race cars. - Original Message - From: stephan torak [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; stephan torak [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 5:45 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?] Thanks for the follow up, Keith. I have since spent many hours researching the issue and have found some relevant facts here: www.blt.bmlf.gv.at/vero/veroeff/0100_Technical_performance_of_methyl_esthers _e.pdf #www.blt.bmlf.gv.atveroveroeff0100_Tec Keith Addison wrote: Hello Stephan, Jan and all I asked Elsbett's Alexander Noack for some comment on what he was quoted as saying about soy oil, and got a very brief response from him: Hi Keith, this all is nearly correct, but only for direct injection engines. Mit freundlichen Gr§en / Best regards Alexander Noack ELSBETT Technologie GmbH Weissenburger Stra§e 15 D-91177 Thalmaessing Internet: www.elsbett.com e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] phone: +49 (0)9173 77940 Fax: +49 (0)9173 77942 This was the quote in question: Soybean oil is bad. Whether it is straight vegetable oil or soybean based biodiesel. It is a no-go in diesel engines. Why? In diesel engines you have slight mixing between fuel and lubricating oil. There is a fuel property in soybean oil that makes it reactive when in contact with engine lubricating oil. It supposedly has a polymerizing action with the engine oil, which is detrimental to the life of your lubricating system. What they do in Europe is use a vegetable-based lubricating oil for the engine to prevent any problems with fuel-lubricating oil intimacy. What else? They do not use soybean oil; They use rape seed also known as canola. Best wishes Keith Hello Jan Hello Stephan. The reason for Elsbett«s people (and several others) for rejecting soy bean oil is its high iodine number. As the case with fish oil, corn oil and several kinds of sunflower oil. A high iodine number is indicating that the oil may be chemically unstable due to its unsaturation level and therefore unsuitable as engine fuel both as SVO and BD. In other words, it polymerises - to quote Phillip Calais: Drying results from the double bonds (and sometimes triple bonds) in the unsaturated oil molecules being broken by atmospheric oxygen and being converted to peroxides. Cross-linking at this site can then occur and the oil irreversibly polymerises into a plastic-like solid. -- From Waste Vegetable Oil as a Diesel Replacement Fuel by Phillip Calais, Environmental Science, Murdoch University, Perth, Australia, and A.R. (Tony) Clark, Western Australian Renewable Fuels Association Inc. http://www.shortcircuit.com.au/warfa/paper/paper.htm See: Iodine Values http
Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?
Anyone making bio-diesel should be concerned with the IV of the oil and the polymerzation of the engine. After a careful reading of the australian report WVO as a Diesel replacement fuel it is obvious that they are concerned with it's use as straight veggy oil and Not so much Bio-diesel.( I would be concerned too) Here is a direct quote from that report. Trans esterifying triglyceride oils and fats with monohydric alcohols to form biodiesel largly eliminates the tendency of the oils and fats to polymerization and auto-oxidation.. The base crop for european biodiesel being rapeseed with a IV of 98 is a reasonable goal to acheve. Most of my stock is soy oil and much of it is hydrogenated. I also get cottonseed and peanut oil along with canola (rapeseed) I no longer use straight soy oil and try to make a blend. In the past when I only had soy oil based biodiesel I would only run BD50. I an no longer worried about the IV of the oil and if you are then just run BD50.Drive down the road Happy...DB ..PS. I have been making biodiesel since '02 and have made 1000's of gallons with zero problems. I agree, and thankyou, but I'm not sure I follow the logic of your solution, attractive though it is. Does an IV value average out when you blend different oils? Other things will, of course, like say FFA levels, you'll end up with an average and that's that. But in a blend with biodiesel made from a high IV oil with biodiesel made from lower IV oils, while the proportion of high IV oil will be lower, what's to stop it oxidising and polymerising just the same? Blending it doesn't change its makeup. I'm not sure what effect blending it with petrodiesel would have, but that wouldn't change its makeup either, it still has its double bonds to be broken down and polymerise. All you'd get is proportionately less polymerisation, no? So it'll take longer to gunge up the engine. That doesn't solve the problem, just mitigates it. Sorry, I don't know if this is right or not, just trying to be logical - maybe it doesn't work like that, but I'd like to know. Regards Keith - Original Message - From: TLC Orchids and Such [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 4:37 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?] Where can we get the veg-based motor oil? Can better oil filtering help with this problem? Racor has a motor oil filter used in race cars. - Original Message - From: stephan torak [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; stephan torak [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 5:45 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?] Thanks for the follow up, Keith. I have since spent many hours researching the issue and have found some relevant facts here: www.blt.bmlf.gv.at/vero/veroeff/0100_Technical_performance_of_methyl_esthers _e.pdf #www.blt.bmlf.gv.atveroveroeff0100_Tec Keith Addison wrote: Hello Stephan, Jan and all I asked Elsbett's Alexander Noack for some comment on what he was quoted as saying about soy oil, and got a very brief response from him: Hi Keith, this all is nearly correct, but only for direct injection engines. Mit freundlichen Gr§en / Best regards Alexander Noack ELSBETT Technologie GmbH Weissenburger Stra§e 15 D-91177 Thalmaessing Internet: www.elsbett.com e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] phone: +49 (0)9173 77940 Fax: +49 (0)9173 77942 This was the quote in question: Soybean oil is bad. Whether it is straight vegetable oil or soybean based biodiesel. It is a no-go in diesel engines. Why? In diesel engines you have slight mixing between fuel and lubricating oil. There is a fuel property in soybean oil that makes it reactive when in contact with engine lubricating oil. It supposedly has a polymerizing action with the engine oil, which is detrimental to the life of your lubricating system. What they do in Europe is use a vegetable-based lubricating oil for the engine to prevent any problems with fuel-lubricating oil intimacy. What else? They do not use soybean oil; They use rape seed also known as canola. Best wishes Keith Hello Jan Hello Stephan. The reason for Elsbett«s people (and several others) for rejecting soy bean oil is its high iodine number. As the case with fish oil, corn oil and several kinds of sunflower oil. A high iodine number is indicating that the oil may be chemically unstable due to its unsaturation level and therefore unsuitable as engine fuel both as SVO and BD. In other words, it polymerises - to quote Phillip Calais: Drying results from the double bonds (and sometimes triple bonds) in the unsaturated oil molecules being broken by atmospheric oxygen and being converted to peroxides. Cross-linking at this site can then occur and the oil irreversibly polymerises into a plastic-like solid. -- From Waste Vegetable Oil as a Diesel
Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?
Hello Keith biofuel list. I too have requested a more detailed explanation for the information we learned at last year's Elsbett workshop in North Carolina. I sent off this question : What is the main reason Elsbett suggests not using soybean oil as a fuel- Is it due to its high iodine number? Or is it just due to soybean oil's negative effect on lubrication oil? Exactly the right question, good for you. When I receive an answer I will post to the list. Thankyou, please do. By the way, I didn't include it because it was personal, but I'm sure Alexander won't mind. He also said this: I am really thankful to Rachel for her information work. She is the most serious worker I met in the US SVO-community. I hope I can continue the work with her during the next workshops there. :-) Just so you know. Regards Keith Thanks, Rachel Burton Piedmont Biofuels www.biofuels.coop On Mar 30, 2005, at 1:32 PM, Keith Addison wrote: Hello Stephan, Jan and all I asked Elsbett's Alexander Noack for some comment on what he was quoted as saying about soy oil, and got a very brief response from him: Hi Keith, this all is nearly correct, but only for direct injection engines. Mit freundlichen Gr§en / Best regards Alexander Noack ELSBETT Technologie GmbH Weissenburger Stra§e 15 D-91177 Thalmaessing Internet: www.elsbett.com e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] phone: +49 (0)9173 77940 Fax: +49 (0)9173 77942 This was the quote in question: Soybean oil is bad. Whether it is straight vegetable oil or soybean based biodiesel. It is a no-go in diesel engines. Why? In diesel engines you have slight mixing between fuel and lubricating oil. There is a fuel property in soybean oil that makes it reactive when in contact with engine lubricating oil. It supposedly has a polymerizing action with the engine oil, which is detrimental to the life of your lubricating system. What they do in Europe is use a vegetable-based lubricating oil for the engine to prevent any problems with fuel-lubricating oil intimacy. What else? They do not use soybean oil; They use rape seed also known as canola. Best wishes Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?
What about the veg-based motor oil? Does it still polamerize when you use the veg-based motor oil? - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 12:28 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making? Hello Rachel Hello Keith biofuel list. I too have requested a more detailed explanation for the information we learned at last year's Elsbett workshop in North Carolina. I sent off this question : What is the main reason Elsbett suggests not using soybean oil as a fuel- Is it due to its high iodine number? Or is it just due to soybean oil's negative effect on lubrication oil? Exactly the right question, good for you. When I receive an answer I will post to the list. Thankyou, please do. By the way, I didn't include it because it was personal, but I'm sure Alexander won't mind. He also said this: I am really thankful to Rachel for her information work. She is the most serious worker I met in the US SVO-community. I hope I can continue the work with her during the next workshops there. :-) Just so you know. Regards Keith Thanks, Rachel Burton Piedmont Biofuels www.biofuels.coop On Mar 30, 2005, at 1:32 PM, Keith Addison wrote: Hello Stephan, Jan and all I asked Elsbett's Alexander Noack for some comment on what he was quoted as saying about soy oil, and got a very brief response from him: Hi Keith, this all is nearly correct, but only for direct injection engines. Mit freundlichen Gr§en / Best regards Alexander Noack ELSBETT Technologie GmbH Weissenburger Stra§e 15 D-91177 Thalmaessing Internet: www.elsbett.com e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] phone: +49 (0)9173 77940 Fax: +49 (0)9173 77942 This was the quote in question: Soybean oil is bad. Whether it is straight vegetable oil or soybean based biodiesel. It is a no-go in diesel engines. Why? In diesel engines you have slight mixing between fuel and lubricating oil. There is a fuel property in soybean oil that makes it reactive when in contact with engine lubricating oil. It supposedly has a polymerizing action with the engine oil, which is detrimental to the life of your lubricating system. What they do in Europe is use a vegetable-based lubricating oil for the engine to prevent any problems with fuel-lubricating oil intimacy. What else? They do not use soybean oil; They use rape seed also known as canola. Best wishes Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?]
commodities issues than as energy issues. There is a whole side to this that is not to be trusted. In the US, it might not be a clever thing to do career-wise for a researcher to start investigating polymerising problems with soy biodiesel. Quality checks of commercial biodiesel seem to be far from watertight, with one lab attesting ASTM quality and another - after the fuel started causing problems - finding it was not ASTM quality. One commercial produceare repeatedly produced off-spec fuel that caused problems with users' cars, but the NBB didn't seem to be aware of it and proudly presented that producer's plant for delegates to the NBB's annual convention to tour. People at the convention who raised the sub-spec fuel issue were told not to rock the boat. Like Stephan, I too would like some reliable information on this issue. I'm not convinced that it's not a problem. We have discussed this here before, Alexander's statement, polymerisation, and oxidation - see: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/34679/ and http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/34769/1 (Elsbett, by the way, is not anti-biodiesel.) Best wishes Keith Best regards Jan Warnqvist AGERATEC AB [EMAIL PROTECTED] + 46 554 201 89 +46 70 499 38 45 - Original Message - From: stephan torak [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 3:19 AM Subject: [Biofuel] (Biofuel)[Fwd: Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?] Hi Everyone! I am a recent addition to the biodiesel world, due to a malfunction in my brain (age related no doubt) that caused me to go and buy a 190D.(I Love it just as I knew I would) . After I decided that buying the conversion kit from Elsbett wasn't necessarily the best option (due to local WVO quality concerns)by the way, if you come to Hawaii, where I live, and decide to eat in a restaurant, make sure you have healthinsurance, the glop they are using here to fry stuff in .. Seriously, though, the WVO I am getting here is is a mix of mostly Soybean oil used 100 times over and other unidentified saturated and unsaturated things. So I deciided to make BD. Now, Everything is running, I've done small batches, large batches, learned a lot, I am using itand now I just read that an Elsbett engineer said to stay away from Soybean oil, regardless if used straight or as feedstock for BD. Now, in my (brief) dealings with the Elsbett company I had the distinctive feeling that they have a little bit of an anti- BD leaning (maybe I got that because German is my native language) But in studying the resources further, and considering the high IV of soybean oil more questions as to its suitability seem to emerge Here are some questions: As far as suitability as a long term source for B100, how serious are the concerns in using BD made from this sort of an oil? What criteria in evaluating the finished product (beyond Mike Perry's criteria of pH and aspect) should serve as a go no go test? does a two step process improve the situation with the high number of double bonds (which leads to the high IV value, as I understand) Thanks for your consideration, Aloha ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
